I am getting sick and fucking tired of hearing that anyone opposed to NSA domestic . . . .

[Stinky The Clown]

. . . . . spying is a libertarian Paulite.

To those who might say that to me or think that of me, specifically, Fuck You.

This is really a nasty bit of internecine warfare that is spreading among Democrats as similar issues have already spread among those other guys. A listen to some of the Democratic primary discussions even among those running for local and state offices is eye opening. The demonizing of liberals. Not hard left fringers, but against those liberals who were once the party's mainstream.

Domestic spying by our government on its citizens offends to the core the Liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Maybe some of you remember us Liberals.

We're the ones opposed to war, both hot and the fucked up never ending GWOT that we continue to perpetuate

We're the ones in favor of social justice

We're the ones who want all Americans to have access to health care

We're the ones who want all Americans to enjoy the same rights and privileges.

We're the ones who want the government to stay out of our bedrooms, away from our bodies, out of our crotches

We're the one who opposed it when Bush did it. Or Bush. Or St Ronnie.

So next time you're inclined to throw that now tired talking point at us, forget it. You're just showing us who YOU are.

And if you're inclined to throw it at me, Fuck You.

The spying flap brought this to a head, but this has been going on for a while. With every issue where the people now in power favor what was the republican position just a few years ago, liberals get pushed back when we point out the inconvenient fact that the Democratic Party has moved demonstrably rightward.

Today's Democratic Party positions are in many ways indistinguishable from the liberal/Rockefeller wing of the Republican Party of just a generation ago.

Those of us opposed to all of this are not Paulites. We're your conscience. We remember.

[Autumn]

1. It needed to be said. Thank you for saying it.

Recommended.

[ProSense]

2. Wait

"I am getting sick and fucking tired of hearing that anyone opposed to NSA domestic .. . . spying is a libertarian Paulite."

...who is saying that? Clearly, Assange and Greenwald are fans of the Pauls.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343

Also, Snowden voted for Ron Paul. Remember this comment from Snowden's weird chat session:

Q: When did you decide to leak the documents?

A: "You see things that may be disturbing. When you see everything you realise that some of these things are abusive. The awareness of wrong-doing builds up. There was not one morning when I woke up (and decided this is it). It was a natural process.

"A lot of people in 2008 voted for Obama. I did not vote for him. I voted for a third party. But I believed in Obama's promises. I was going to disclose it (but waited because of his election). He continued with the policies of his predecessor."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why

This from a guy who said....

Ed Snowden: Leakers “should be shot in the balls,” and "cut this Social Security bullshit"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

[Marr]

10. I swear, it's like you're *immune* to logic.

I don't care if the three people you cited were Rand Paul's brothers and co-campaign managers. It wouldn't have any relevance to the point the OP was making.

A LOT of people are angry about this issue. Some of them are libertarians. The great majority are not.

[ProSense]

21. Kick and rec if you support the proposed NSA reforms.

Kick and rec if you support the proposed NSA reforms.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481937

[Mojorabbit]

73. The reforms are weak which has been pointed out to you countless times. nt

[last1standing]

74. It's amost as if she believes listening doesn't pay.

Some people think you get more bang for your buck by posting in quantity, not quality.

[A Simple Game]

147. And some people believe they get more buck for their bang by posting in quantity, not quality. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

254. +1 Whoa. Is THAT ever true:

>>Some people think you get more bang for your buck by posting in quantity, not quality.>>>

It's like some people are on a quota.

[uponit7771]

103. ...and any amount of reforms would still be weak to the GG is god stokers, what difference

...would it make then?!

[Mojorabbit]

107. Snark like yours adds zip to the conversation. Do you have any comments

on the proposed reforms as voiced by multiple organizations and newspapers?

[cui bono]

162. Guess the OP flew right over your head.

You should read it again. I think it's directed right at you.

But, do you really believe that no change is better than some change? Think about what you are really saying, because you clearly didn't when you posted that. Your post sounds like a whiny elementary school aged kid.

[last1standing]

222. You're responding to someone who thinks universal healthcare and public schools are conservative.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023482329#post17

I wish I was making that up but I'm not. Perhaps the problem for some is that they really have no idea what they believe unless someone else tells them to believe it.

[sabrina 1]

218. How do you feel about the massive surveillance programs Ron Wyden has been trying to warn

us about for several years which have now been exposed, things he couldn't speak about due to some arbitrary rule imposed on members of the Senate. And how do you feel about what he said regarding even what we now know being 'only the tip of the iceberg'?

[sabrina 1]

219. The ones that will be overseen by Clapper? For a day or so we were hopeful, then the Fox

was put in charge of the Henhouse and that was the end of that.

[stillwaiting]

22. Some people around here will call you a racist apologist if you agree with one word that

Rand Paul/Ron Paul say about anything.

I have nothing nice to say about any of them.

They are disingenuous at best, motive-based to be sure, and I don't know why it's tolerated around here.

[LondonReign2]

38. She's not rewarded for being logical

[last1standing]

43. What do logic and propaganda have to do with each other?

There are those who want to discuss issues and there are those who want to divert attention from the issues.

[Fuddnik]

64. I think they get vaccinated for the job.

[rhett o rick]

185. It's like automatic. A response is posted even if it doesnt pertain. Must get a response posted.

And most of the time, no point is made. Just data.

[Civilization2]

199. Yes, seems designed to muddy the waters,. to make actual debate impossible.

Nonsense is nonsense,. . but gets posted over and over and over,.

[bobduca]

213. Most often a link back to another post

"titled" with optimal Search Engine Optimization.

Google bombing is hard work.

[KurtNYC]

252. Unless it is done by a bot

[chimpymustgo]

12. The New Civil Rights Movement: against spying, lying, wars, ProCheney-ProAuthoritarian BS.

It's pretty simple.

We're for what democracy in general, and Democrats in particular are supposed to stand for.

It's the new Civil Rights movement.

[ProSense]

30. "We're for what democracy in general, and Democrats in particular are supposed to stand for."

The New Civil Rights Movement: against spying, lying, wars, ProCheney-ProAuthoritarian BS.

It's pretty simple.

We're for what democracy in general, and Democrats in particular are supposed to stand for.

It's the new Civil Rights movement.

Yeah, and Rand Paul is the antithesis of that. I take pride in calling him and his supporters out (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343)...always.

Here's Where Rand Paul Can Find 'Objective Evidence' of Vote Suppression
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023476402

Sen. Rand Paul: Civil Rights Act Was Overreach Because "I Can't Have A Cigar Bar Anymore"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023065177

Rand Paul, Supposed Defender Of Civil Liberties, Calls For Jailing People Who Attend ‘Radical Political Speeches’
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/05/31/232182/rand-paul-criminalize-speech/

Rand Paul: ‘I’m Not A Firm Believer In Democracy…It Gave Us Jim Crow’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343

Compare:

Holder Stands Up for the Right to Vote

Today’s excellent New York Times editorial rightfully praises Attorney General Eric Holder’s efforts this week to highlight the sanctity of the right to vote in America. In his speech from the Lyndon Baines Johnson presidential library in Austin, Texas, the attorney general said, “The right to vote is not only the cornerstone of our system of government — it is the lifeblood of our democracy. And no force has proved more powerful — or more integral to the success of the great American experiment — than efforts to expand the franchise.”

But this year, we’ve seen a coordinated effort to shrink our democracy and push voters out of the electorate as legislatures across the country have passed laws that will make it harder for Americans – particularly African-Americans, the elderly, students and people with disabilities – to exercise their fundamental right to cast a ballot. The Department of Justice plays a critical role in fighting back against these voter suppression laws. The agency can challenge discriminatory voting laws and stop them from going into effect.

Take action and tell Attorney General Holder you agree with his efforts to protect the right to vote.

http://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rights/holder-stands-right-vote

Smarter Sentencing

By THE EDITORIAL BOARD

You know a transformational moment has arrived when the attorney general of the United States makes a highly anticipated speech on a politically combustible topic and there is virtually no opposition to be heard.

That describes the general reaction to Eric Holder Jr.’s announcement on Monday that he was ordering “a fundamentally new approach” in the federal prosecution of many lower-level drug offenders. What once would have elicited cries of “soft on crime” now drew mostly nods of agreement. As Mr. Holder said, it’s “well past time” to take concrete steps to end the nation’s four-decade incarceration binge — the result of harsh sentencing laws enacted in response to increased violent crime in the late 1960s and 1970s.

The statistics have been repeated so often as to be numbing: 1.57 million Americans in state and federal prisons, an increase of more than 500 percent since the late 1970s, at a cost of $80 billion annually. In 2010, more than 7 in 100 black men ages 30 to 34 years old were behind bars. The federal system alone holds 219,000 inmates, 40 percent above its capacity, thanks to strict sentencing guidelines and mandatory minimum sentences. Of these inmates, nearly half are in prison for drug-related crimes.

In Mr. Holder’s words, “too many Americans go to too many prisons for far too long, and for no truly good law enforcement reason.” Many criminal-justice experts have long felt the same way. What made Mr. Holder’s speech timely and important was that it reflected a fundamental shift in thinking about crime and punishment at the highest levels of government.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/opinion/smarter-sentencing.html

ACLU: How to Process Eric Holder’s Major Criminal Law Reform Speech
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023451453

[chimpymustgo]

66. Just stop slandering DU'er's. This has NOTHING THE FUCK to do with RAND PAUL.

You're positing a LIE about supporters of civil liberties.

Quite Cheney-esque.

[lark]

180. She just can't stand it that some people don't think Obama is perfect.

To, in her mind, defend him and his policies, no matter how mis-begotten, she attacks those of us who care about policy, privacy, social security, etc.

[ProSense]

205. LOL!

"She just can't stand it that some people don't think Obama is perfect."

I'll live.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/100251866

[ProSense]

204. Oh brother. Non one is fucking "slandering DU'er's."

"This has NOTHING THE FUCK to do with RAND PAUL."

Right, Fuck Rand Paul.

I'll keep saying it.

[cascadiance]

245. I AGREE! FUCK RAND PAUL!!!!

FUCK RAND PAUL!
FUCK RAND PAUL!

[h1]AND...![H1]

FUCK THOSE THAT DON'T WANT TO DEFEND OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS UNDER THE FOURTH AMENDMENT, WHICH DEMOCRATS HAVE SUPPORTED IN THE PAST, EVEN IF SOME HERE SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT WHEN THEY PRIORITIZE THEIR PARTY LOYALTY OVER THAT OF THE COUNTRY! AND YES I'M YELLING WITH CAPS, AS THOSE HERE REFUSE TO LISTEN TO US!!!!

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FUCKING WHETHER WE AGREE WITH RAND PAUL OR OTHER LIBERTARIANS ON EVERYTHING THAT YOU KEEP ACCUSING US FALSELY OF CHAMPIONING IN YOUR EFFORT TO DEFLECT CRITICISM OF THOSE IN CHARGE'S CONTINUED VIOLATION OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BY AGENCIES UNDER ITS CONTROL.

OK, I'm tired of yelling now...

But I do want to say:

1) There are a number of things I do support that Libertarians also support in terms of government accountability on civil liberties and not spending money on wars. These are positions that traditional Democrats and those who are REAL progressives have always professed, even during the Bush years. I think they also can be talked to about pot decriminalization. Now what else do they have?.... Hmmm.... I'm thinking... Not too much.

2) There are a lot of things that Libertarians do that I HATE... We are not talking about those things now. Snowden and Greenwald aren't talking about those things in the issues that are under debate here now. Why do people like YOU keep bringing them up if we aren't talking about them. Because you don't have anything to defend what is going on in the NSA and our security state, other than trying to distract us REPUBLICAN and CORPORATIST style from dealing with the fundamental big issues in front of us of our constitutional rights being violated.

If you want to continue your love/hate obsession with Ron and Rand Paul and other Libertarians, take it someplace else. Many of us are tired with trying to clean up the trash out of these threads when we are trying to focus on the real issues of the day.

[Cryptoad]

82. I have beened

engaged fighting the Paulites and Tea Party for years. I never thought I would have to fight in here. .

Even though most of the New Progressive Tea Party are not aware of the fact , but there Paulites stoking fires here ......


Very Strange seeing people wanting to appoint more GOP appointed Judges to oversee the protection of their civil liberties!

[LondonReign2]

171. "I never thought I would have to fight in here. . "

And you're not. The only people bringing up Rand Paul are the Obama/NSA apologists in a pathetic attempt at guilt by association.

[Cryptoad]

172. Bull

the handful that are leading this little parade have made statement that contradict you post.

Who is playing whom?

[Civilization2]

200. Agreed, the corporate-military spook supporters are the only ones bringing up the Pauls.

Sadly they echo themselves endlessly,. and start to believe their own attacks are fact based.

[OnyxCollie]

20. And the Carlyle Group-owned, PNAC-led Booz Allen got $2 billion, courtesy of Obama.

And who wouldn't want Poppy Bush listening in on everyone's conversation? You're defending it, so what kind of Democrat does that make you?

ProSense hearts Poppy Bush/Carlyle Group/PNAC/James Woolsey.

[ljm2002]

67. "ProSense hearts Poppy Bush/Carlyle Group/PNAC/James Woolsey"

It bears repeating.

[ProSense]

75. Obama's second term: A productive six months.

Obama's second term: A productive six months.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023482199

"ProSense hearts Poppy Bush/Carlyle Group/PNAC/James Woolsey"

I support the President and Democrats. Who do you support?

[ljm2002]

80. You are the one who repeatedly does guilt-by-association...

...as demonstrated very clearly in your responses in this thread, particularly your first response, which tried to associate the anti-NSA-spying position with being a libertarian / Paulite.

That being the case, I feel perfectly comfortable in doing the same thing back atcha. Since you are okay with what the NSA and our other spying agencies are doing -- which does include domestic surveillance, since if it did not, there would have been nothing to share with the DEA -- that must mean you subscribe to the beliefs and politics of Dick Cheney, George HW Bush, George W Bush et al.

Surely you cannot fault the logic, since it mimics your own.

[sabrina 1]

221. Do you support the massive surveillance program Ron Wyden, a Democrat who I fully support btw

has been trying to warn us about for several years now? The policies implemented by Bush/Cheney btw.

Iow, do you support the Bush policies that Obama promised to scale back if he were elected? He spoke eloquently against those un-Constitutional policies during his campaigns which is what won him the election.

Were you opposed to Obama then? I fully supported him.

[Th1onein]

161. I do not think that is true.

But I don't understand how anyone can compare the people who are against spying to Paulbots. Just because Snowden and/or Greenwald support Paul doesn't mean that people against spying support him. They are libertarians, and civil libertarians have something in common with them. A couple of things in fact: anti-war and anti-spying. Probably more than that, but it doesn't make the two the same at all.

When someone says that, they are trying to stage an ad hominem attack. I'm sure Prosense knows this. Why she continues to do it, I'm not sure, but I am sure that she is not on the Bush/Carlyle Group/PNAC/James Woolsey team, and for the anti-spying group to say that is also staging an ad hominem attack against Prosense.

[ljm2002]

167. Well I don't either...

...but then again, I don't think ProSense believes that all of us who are against the surveillance state are actually supporters of Rand Paul, either. And yet she persists in posting OPs about Paul, and even in this thread she posted one of her videos / link fests regarding Rand Paul, as though she thinks it's her job to educate us here about how onerous he is.

Also it is a lot like Bush when he was promoting the Iraq invasion: he never directly said that Iraq / Hussein had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks; however, he made sure to make statements where the words "9/11", "Iraq" and "Saddam Hussein" occurred in close proximity, thereby strongly implying an association and helping to make his case for war.

What we are seeing here on DU is spamming the board with guilt-by-association posts implying that "against NSA spying" == "Rand Paul supporter", and I strenuously object to those dirty tactics. So I will happily turn it back onto her and others who employ the same tactics.

[Th1onein]

189. You think that there is an effort to "catapult the propaganda" here, or

that they are trying to do, as some suggest, a distraction campaign to keep us from organizing?

[ljm2002]

194. I think it's catapulting the propaganda...

...and attempting to control the discussion. A distraction campaign to keep us from organizing? No, I don't think it reaches that level.

It's damned annoying though. I really don't have a problem with people expressing different viewpoints. I understand why many people view both Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden as criminals, or worse, traitors, because they broke their oaths to protect classified information. I don't agree with it, but I can understand and respect the position. What I cannot understand nor respect is the bulldozer approach to discussion, where threads are overrun with a high volume of information / misinformation / disinformation, much of it irrelevant to whatever discussion it appears in, and attempts to smear anyone and everyone who holds a different viewpoint, along with implying that we must share 100% the political views of anyone whose position we support on a single issue. It very much detracts from the experience at DU. And putting people on Ignore is no solution, as it allows the falsehoods and nasty tactics to go unremarked.

[Civilization2]

203. You are right on point,. the attempt is to muddy the debate, and make treads unreadable / useless.

It is a pathetic attempt at using a nasty tactic that most intelligent folks, who have been around the block, will recognize right away, however it does make the debate here less useful, and it is just nasty. Showing a marked lack of personal character of the spammers.

[NuclearDem]

29. Oh, now that's just dishonest.

Please don't act like we're stupid. It doesn't help your case.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

51. x2

[ProSense]

59. "Please don't act like we're stupid. "

How exactly does that point imply that?

[Civilization2]

206. You IGNORE the OP and post more pro-non-sense,. . unrelated noise, useless links to self,. .

Why not deal with the OP and what is says about you, and your handful of cronies.

The NSA being a corporate-military threat to democracy, has NOTHING to do with anyone liking the ideas of the pauls,. it is a lame diversion, and a cheap character attack that often has no basis in reality and you know it.

[East Coast Pirate]

127. You just can't stop yourself can you?

Or is the attention too intoxicating?

[cui bono]

160. OMG... just fucking stop already.

Please.

[ProSense]

179. You know what:

"OMG... just fucking stop already. Please."

...the faux outrage from people who believe nonsense (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481767) is telling.

Please, spare me.

[NealK]

187. "people who believe nonsense"

Well I noticed that a couple of posters do but the vast majority of people don't believe a word you say.

[David Krout]

177. The OP is not about Snowden not being a Paulite

It's about everyone who agrees with criticism of the NSA (stemming from his leaks) not necessarily being a Paulite.

Did the hundreds of Democrats who supported the Amash amendment that you NSA defenders hate vote for Ron Paul or Rand Paul at any time?

Is Ron Wyden a Paulite?

Oh yeah let me guess. YOu will copy and paste some Democratic Underground links "proving" that Wyden is actually on your side of this debate. LOL.

[lark]

178. SSDD

[Civilization2]

198. Just wow! Reading is fundamental,. the OP crushed you BEFORE you commented,. wow!

It is like you reverse posted before the OP,. and it commented on your silly repetitive nonsense. Oh, is that it, pro=non is some internet letter swap game? All makes sense now,. nonsense is what you do.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

211. So, if Assange and Greenwald wear a red tie than all people who wear red ties are Paulites?

[sabrina 1]

217. And why should we care about any of that? This President has no problems with Repulicans

being in his cabinet. I thought we had to embrace those we don't agree with 'in order to get things done'.

Have you changed your mind about that now and do you now oppose Obama's philosophy of crossing the aisle to find Republicans for his Democratic cabinet?

That's what I'm reading from our posts.

[last1standing]

223. LOL! I can almost guarantee you won't get a straight answer to that question.

In fact I doubt you get any answer at all.

But the 24/7 propaganda machine will continue spreading disinformation and dehumanizing insults in other threads. That I can absolutely guarantee.

[sabrina 1]

226. It's astounding, isn't it? The incredible childishness of it all. That they actually think people

give a shit whether the messengers are 'Paulites or Assange is a Paulite or whatever else they come up with, when the ISSUES ARE SO IMPORTANT.

Do the police care if a serial killer gives them info on another killer they've been trying to catch? Do they say 'Oooooh no, we can't use that information to catch a killer because of who gave it to us'??? I have never, ever seen such stupidity and I've been online talking to Repulicans since the early Bush years when 'stupid' was the order of the day, in all my years online.

I hope they are getting that it is all crashing down around them, these 'smear campaign' attempts. And I sure hope no one is paying for it, as some people need to think because a bigger waste of money I cannot imagine.

[last1standing]

228. Don't worry, tomorrow there will be an entirely new angle blasted through the forums.

But we know it will include trying to dehumanize and ostracize anyone who questions the Great Obama.

I don't know how much money OFA and the DNC are putting out right now, but it's far too much for their return.

[sabrina 1]

235. I think the money being spent is most likely going to Security Contractors to try to smear

people like Assange, (the latest one is so lame, I actually laughed) and Greenwald on the assumption that other journalists will be scared into remaining silent. The only way to combat that is for all journalists to back them up and to start joining them in their work.

Greenwald we learned, was the target of a smear campaign by HB Gary, a Security Contractor who were bidding on a contract with Bank of America. Clearly they assumed that a smear campaign against a blogger, which is all he was at the time, was likely to get them the contract.

Anonymous exposed those internal emails. HB Gary had to shut down that part of their operation, but it looks like SOMEONE got the contract after all. And it is our tax dollars that pay these 'security contractors'.

[cascadiance]

246. Speaking of serial killers, do any of you religiously believe in Ayn Rand's obsession with one?

She felt that serial killer William Hickman was a "superman" and expressed admiration about him... Talk about being a sociopath...

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/02/ayn-rand’s-superman-a-serial-killer-and-rapist/

Now, does me critiquing Ayn Rand in this way make me a "Paulite"? Huh? Or is someone going to say that I must like serial killers as well, since I feel there's a problem with the NSA which makes me a "Paullite" and therefore by extension, I also must feel that serial killers are "supermen"!

Now... Do you see how this labeling of us as "Paullites" is STUPID and insulting to everyone here?

[grahamhgreen]

239. Quote, "if you're inclined to throw it at me, Fuck You."

Obama, is not on our side, face it.

[n2doc]

3. K n R

The are Desperate People resorting to Desperate Measures. I just don't understand how they expect their tactic to work, other than by trying to convince Skinner and the DU Admins to shut down dissent because it "helps Paul". And I don't think that is going to happen.

[bvar22]

135. Their goal is not to convince anyone of anything

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.

woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

I believe the above explains it better than I could.
You only need to look at this thread.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[Th1onein]

164. I really hate to think this, bvar, but I am slowly coming to the conclusion that it might be true.

What a shame it is.

[Marr]

188. I'm inclined to agree. I've noticed these little exit detours are almost always posted

very early in a thread-- usually by one of the same four or so people. They're never sensible, just fast-- and there's always an exit path offered in the form of a link.

[Civilization2]

208. Yup, you noticed a key tactic, the "exit path link", designed to pull eyes OFF the offending truth!

sad and more than a little pathetic really.

[Fire Walk With Me]

227. Chomsky explains it:

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."

[annabanana]

248. ^^ +1. . . . . n/t

[Marr]

4. It's almost funny-- this tiny, vacuum-sealed group points at everyone outside their tiny bubble

and shrieks, "extremist".

The parallels to the Bushbots of a few years ago are striking.

[grasswire]

40. yes, it's exactly the same behavior I monitored at freerepublic..

...in the Bush era. EXACTLY.

A cult of personality, with no ultimate regard for the wellbeing of this republic and our liberties.

[zeemike]

41. Well it worked so well for them.

And that seems to be the Third Way philosophy, to adopt the right wing strategies because they work.
Imitation is the sincerest form of sell out.

[Vinnie From Indy]

58. Monty Python did a good bit about this

One can easily see the parallels in the current NSA political drama with this brilliant Python skit. Obama, of course, is Brian and the mob is depicted by the Obama cultists. The folks objecting to the NSA programs are encapsulated in the naked hermit that gets killed as an unbeliever.
Cheers!

[Newsjock]

5. Are you now, or have you ever been, in a romantic relationship with a pole dancer?

Just askin'. Because it's important, y'know.

[KoKo]

76. yes...

there's a post up urging people to commit to NOT supporting Ron Paul or Rand Paul...whichever. That reeked of "Old Joe McC" kind of tactics.

[hootinholler]

105. I wouldn't call my relationships with pole dancers as romantic

Every young sailor leans at some point there is no sex in the private party room.

[Bonobo]

6. A vehement K&R followed by a

Fuck you from me to them as well.

[BOG PERSON]

7. all this talk about paul this and paul that and paulites makes me think

of the conversion of paul on the way to damascus

[Cooley Hurd]

8. Powerful and recommended.

[HardTimes99]

9. K to the friggin R! A pox on all this neo-McCarthyism masquerading as

gravitas.

I despise Ron and Rand Paul. I despise violations of the First and Fourth Amendments by agents of the government. I believe in the necessity of a strong federal government that protects our rights and doesn't violate them. I am not a Paul-bot.

[marble falls]

13. I'm with you.

[90-percent]

11. I'm not that partisan

I prefer aspiring to the higher principals they taught me our country was based on, back in my 1960 to 1972 public school days.

We have become everything they taught us was bad about communist Russia in those times. Who knew that 40 years later we would allow our country to take the form of communist Russia, totalitarian police state wise.

Sure, they aren't using this infrastructure in earnest, YET, but why the hell do they keep building it?

They also taught us that it's illegal for real good reasons to never use the military against it's own citizens. Boy has that changed.

I've never wavered in my revulsion to all the extra constitutional stuff the Obama admin has done not the least of which is to carry on with the Unconstitutional GWB train wreck of democracy policies.

I am repelled by the if Obama violated the Constitution it's OK because he's one of us memes.

Larry Summers? WTF? Why should I like that stupid plutocratic weasel just because Obama seems to? At least Elizabeth Warren and Alan Grayson are still fighting for progressive values in earnest.

-jim

[TBF]

14. I've been on a fair amount the past week -

(my attendance here comes & goes in the summer as my kids have camps so some weeks more time than others)

and what I have seen are these different factions:

1. Folks who support the President without flinching (may even be campaign or party staffers at the extreme end of this)

2. Democrats who support the President generally but have a problem with constitutional rights being trampled on (as you state - many of us may be older)

3. Republican trolls who see an issue where there is a split and will do anything they can to lecture, raise "concerns"etc because they see an opening.


It happens every time we have a big issue - Snowden, Zimmerman, Manning ... etc. The repugs love to show up (with their low post sleeper accounts or new accounts) and add fuel when they see honest disagreement. I think we've seen quite a bit of that in the past week.

[Skidmore]

28. I agree with what you have said.

I tend to fall into the second group you describe. I would add the caveat that I also have a problem with those who see this as a one person blame game and leave out from the equation the responsibilities of the hundreds of members of the House and Senate and ignore the role of SCOTUS. The government as a whole has responsibility and when one branch is busy trying to shut government down and another is trying to underscore an ideological agenda geared towards shutting it down, it cannot be ignored.

[pscot]

139. They've all been screwing the same pooch

Congress, the Courts and the Whitehouse all seem to have forgotten what this country is supposedly about.

[alarimer]

15. Absolutely true

I stopped registering as a Democrat years ago. They lost me with their constant sucking up to Wall Street. Maybe it's always been there,but Clinton's triangulation really sealed the deal for me.

Now Obama is doing things that, just a few years ago when Bush was doing them, outraged us. Now, because of the cult of personality, anything Obama does (with some people) is a-ok.

I'm not voting knee-jerk Democrat anymore, that's for sure.

[WinkyDink]

16. 100% with you.

[RoccoR5955]

17. K & R n/t

[randome]

18. I'd say that 99.9% of DUers are opposed to domestic spying.

Many of us see the reported 'exposes' as little more than fear-mongering about what the NSA could do. Those couple of thousand computer-generated errors out of millions? There was a thread that was essentially a repeat of Joe Wilson's insult to the President: "You lie!"

When reality is actually much more mundane.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[winter is coming]

19. Meh, it's just another desperate attempt to marginalize concern about the NSA's activities.

What's interesting is how very badly some people want/need to do that. What are they so afraid of?

[Civilization2]

209. I would assume some of them actually know what is really going on, and is it much worse!

I was never interested in all these apologists repeatedly asking us to provide proof of the SECRET operations,. and then only ever pointing to the released info and claiming that was so overblown.

I have been/am more concerned with the very EXISTENCE of the FACILITIES to easily get at all this spook info,. not that it would be used in a court,. or admired to, that it will be used to secretly manipulate, to quash opposition BEFORE it gets going, to rub out enemies QUIETLY, and without notice,. that is the real power, and that is the real issue.

[go west young man]

23. Spot on.

I was called a Rand Paul Tea Party progressive multiple times yesterday by two people who consistently posted non stop slurs at myself, Snowdon, and Assange as well as other DU'ers. They never offered sourced proof of any points they were trying to make, only insults.

[go west young man]

27. I also wanted to add this great post from Sabrina1 in regards to this matter from yesterday.

She really nails it.


Their worst nightmare is happening. They have lost control of the 'message' although why there

has to be a 'message' rather than simple facts, is and always has been, beyond me.

Not only that, but the Left/Right/Ron Paul/Rand Paul games they played and some of us for a while, simply aren't working anymore.

Keep the people divided, and many of us fell for it for a long time, was how they remained 'safe' from scrutiny. But some things, and this they don't seem to get, are far, far more important than political game playing.

The day the people unite on some of these issues, is the day they will lose control. And it appears, starting with the Wall St. Bailouts, that has begun to happen.

The propagandists keep trying to play the old cards that used to work 'you're a Paulbot if you oppose these programs' or 'only racists' oppose these programs, have spectacularly failed, not only that, they have become COMEDY, the worst thing that can happen to a propaganda machine.

Maybe some of them will finally start taking their jobs seriously, realizing that job is NOT to facilitate the bottom line of Corporations, but is it, and I know this is hard for them to accept:

TO DEFEND AND PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE US!

Sorry to shout that part, but our elected officials have gone way, way off course and someone needs to remind them why they are there. It is NOT to secure profitable jobs in the private sector for themselves and their buddies.

[grasswire]

46. yes, Bush and Obama both have that wrong

They always say their first job is to keep the American people safe.

No. No.

The oath they swore to requires them to PROTECT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION.

[truebluegreen]

150. ^^^^This^^^^

Reminds me of the shift that happened after WWII when the War Dept. became the Dept. of Defense...a change in terminology frames the issue in a completely different way. Who could be against defending ourselves? Who could object to our protecting ourselves?

[KoKo]

83. She definitely nailed it. +!

[NorthCarolina]

98. I am hoping that in upcoming election cycles,

we will see this board used during the primaries as a tool to weed out and expose the DLC type Dems, and to promote the Progressive Dem choices.

[bvar22]

144. I agree. Sabrina1 really nailed it with that post.

woo me with science nailed it with THIS one last week:

[div class="excerpt"
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.
woo me with science, Sun Jul 28, 2013

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801


You can see those very tactics in this thread.

Kudos to woo me with science and Sabrina1,
and Kudos to Stinky The Clown for this thread.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[limpyhobbler]

24. Michelle Bachmann, Rick Santorum and Lindsey Graham love mass surveillance.

They never met an NSA spying program they didn't like.

Anyone who defends the NSA overreach is lining up with Rick Santorum.

I'd say they are a bunch of real Santorum-ites


See how easy it is to do that.

[treestar]

25. You are pure then when it comes to name calling right?

You poor things are such victims! Everyone picks on you when you are so pure and always in the right! It's just horrible.

[niyad]

37. do you have links to the OP calling others on this board names? would be instructive to see them.

[Autumn]

56. It would be very instructive

But don't wait for it.

[niyad]

57. believe me, not holding my breath for that.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. That's your entire thinking on the subject? A bunch of personal snark at the OP and an emoticon?

Definitive.

[totodeinhere]

88. Your snarky reply is a good example of the problem that the OP is talking about.

Thank you for your example. You help to make the OP's case.

[SammyWinstonJack]

108. ...

[Logical]

121. You would know, you are one of the worst. n-t

[sibelian]

258. You are wasting my time.

PLONK.

[WillyT]

26. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

31. Ya nailed it Stinky and

I couldn't of said it better myself. Spying on Americans is WRONG!

[Ichingcarpenter]

32. Its a disgusting logical fallacy

used to marginalize the problem that is a big deal and a widespread documented fact.

[niyad]

33. k and r

[Fire Walk With Me]

34. Fuck the libertarians, fuck the surveillance state, and SHAME on those

who are actively working to suppress critical thinking and discrimination, much less protest, in the name of party unity.

This is what Republicans and cults do.

[sarcasmo]

44. +1

[Salviati]

94. It's like they've never heard of an ad hominim attack before

This sort of anti-intellectual argument might work with freepers, but I have confidence that in the end DU will hold itself to a higher level of discourse

[Fire Walk With Me]

173. That it can occur here at all, in any form, much less consistently, is as frightening as the

very existence of the surveillance state itself. I hope you are correct that fact shall win over opinion.

[nashville_brook]

176. yes it is.

this shouldn't be a party-unity thing. if the party is siding with the NSA, then the party needs some reflection time.

those who are making it a party-unity thing are wrong, and they fail to understand the nature of the critique.

[DainBramaged]

35. Just remember, if you've done nothing wrong, well you have nothing to fear

Or better yet, they'll make something up..........



We no longer have any control.

[forestpath]

36. K&R

[G_j]

39. K&R

agree

[LondonReign2]

45. BIG K&R

And I agree, FUCK 'EM

[gulliver]

47. "We're your conscience."

The prosecution rests.

[last1standing]

48. They're using basic propaganda techniques to demonize the enemy.

These tactics are no different from calling the Japanese "nips" or the Germans "jerrys" in WWII. It's also no different that calling someone "fag" or "nigger." If you can dehumanize your opponent it emphasizes their status as an outsider and makes hating them easier.

Calling us Libertarians and Paulites is simply a way of making us feel unwelcome and vaguely afraid at DU.

[grasswire]

50. yep,it's ugly stuff

there must be a "school" in flinging propaganda somewhere.

[last1standing]

53. If there is, these people couldn't afford tuition.

It's like they picked up the books but couldn't attend classes. They read half of the first chapter and now think they're experts in the subject.

The only thing they have right is the hatred for anyone not like themselves. They do that part very well.

[grasswire]

54. and the paranoia

...anyone not in thrall to their leader is "racist, libertarian..." blahblah.

[leftstreet]

65. They're giving Paul and Libertarianism lots of publicity

Hmm

[last1standing]

102. Yes they are.

And it doesn't matter a bit to them. Propagandists will gladly sink a nation to save a personality.

[grasswire]

49. thank you, Sailor! nt

[AZ Progressive]

52. The Propagandists are trying to put us on the defensive

Screw that. We need to put them on the defensive. Obama Democrats using propaganda and deflection to steer away from what the debate should be (just because it hurts their leader) should not be accepted. There are more important things in this country than Team Sports. These are like the Democrats that would have defended Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam War.

[brewens]

55. I'm against that kind of abuse now as I was when it was Bush doing it. I can't

now make excuses because it's our President. I can't yet be totally convinced of the extent of the abuse. Even if under Obama they were trying to play it like they claim, gathering all that data but only really analyzing something that appears to be a real threat, what happens when the next bunch gets in there? All that information is still available for them to use however they please.

I remember conservatives being up in arms over a sexual survey of high school kids. Why? Because once they had that information they would act on it. I believe their concern was it backing up the need for more sex education and making birth control more readily available. It amazes me that conservatives wouldn't take the same stance on government spying, and that liberals aren't even more fired up over it.

I still look back on what happened leading up to 9/11, knowing they didn't need more power, they just needed to have done their jobs in the first place to prevent it.

[midnight]

60. I agree—spying is wrong.... No matter who is in the White House...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

61. Well said.

Decades ago, we dealt with this guy who perfected the innuendo of disloyalty with his questions such as "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"



Now we've got to deal with "Are you a Paul supporter?" and its equivalencies.

For all those raising this innuendo of disloyalty, the "Fuck you" phrase is exactly right.

Since it appears that these people are persistent and stupid, that phrase will have to be repeated again.

[backscatter712]

120. Exactly. This is McCarthyist tactics.

I have no idea why Skinner & co. tolerate this vile shit here.

[Whisp]

62. SnowGlenn are Paulite Paulbots...

of course people who adore and trust them and continually rag on the administration are going to get some Paul snot splashed on them.

[grasswire]

155. ...so says a snot splasher nonpareil. nt

[Whisp]

156. I don't support some whack-a-do thieves and charlatans

like SnowGleen are and use them as a bludgeon to smash at the President.

I know, I know. Very strange for a democratic forum.

[Th1onein]

165. Come on, Whisp, you know better than this kind of post.

We who are against the government wholesale spying on Americans are neither Paulbots nor are we worshippers of either Snowden or Greenwald.

Please, come up with better arguments. Yesterday, you came up with the "cookies are equal to spying" meme, which was embarrassing. If you really think that the spying is A-Okay, make an argument for it that holds water.

[Whisp]

166. There is no wholesale government spying on Americans.

and there is also no reasonable discussion if that is not cleared first. Greenwald and whoever is backing him behind the curtains, wants everyone to believe that. You going to let him play you like that?

I'm not.

And the Cesca piece was not an embarrassment at all, to me for posting it or him for writing about it. It's ironic and funny as all hell having the image of Glenn spouting about spying and privacy when corporate click click clicking is going on in the basement that knows a hell of a lot more personal things about you and I than the NSA could dream about or want to even bother about.

I think the whole issue is more about gathering information than spying. The conversation has been glanced toward that direction by few with that intent. Those are two different animals - there is info gathering on us by the government(s), and most of it with our permission, from the day we are born to the day we kick off this place.

I will say again what I did to someone the other day: that if you want your social security, medicare, medicade, service records, education records, and all the things the government stores in files, if you want that stuff to be absolutely safe with no possible way anyone with bad intentions could get at it, you'd have to write them all out on papyrus and bury them in random locations around the world so access would be difficult is not impossible. But that wouldn't be great for the SS checks coming out on time.

[rhett o rick]

190. I love your certainty. "There is no wholesale government spying on Americans."

And you are sure of that how? Did Gen Clapper tell you? Did Obama tell you? Neither of them have a reason to lie. Well maybe they do if it implicated them in violating both the FISA Law and the Constitution.

Isnt certainty the opposite of open-mindedness?

I do know that it's tempting to blindly believe our authoritarian leaders. But democracy and authoritarianism do not mix. Democratic principles do not include blindly following ANYONE. Even Democrats. But Clapper is a REpublican. That's a double whammy.

The problem is that you havent been paying close attention. The NSA has admitted to "wholesale spying". At least wholesale data collection.

Wouldnt it be wise to wait until all the evidence has been examined before jumping to the conclusion that everything is peachy?

[Whisp]

193. you know how I'm so certain?

because of Palin's Death Panels, because Obama is a kenyan Muslim socialist wall streeter.

all those have the same stench as this one does.

[rhett o rick]

230. Let's look at your logic. Because some idiots claimed Obama was born in Kenya

you conclude the NSA isnt spying on Americans. Just admit it, you cant stand anything that might reflect badly on your hero.

[Th1onein]

191. Whisp! Even the government has admitted that they are collecting everything!

Everything, Whisp! And they are only looking at it when they want to query the system for information, and then they pull up anyone who is associated with that query and two hops out.

Remember what Clapper said? That they didn't actually "collect" anything until they took the book from the shelf and opened it to look at it? Those are Clapper's words, Whisp, not mine. In order to take the book from the shelf, you have to have the book in the first place. They've got a collection of books, all with our information in them, including metadata, and content of our emails, texts, and cell phone conversations.

[morningfog]

174. You fail when you get to "adore and trust" them.

I don't care at all about Greenwald or Snowden, the persons. I appreciate what they have revealed and the ripple effect from it. As people, I care no more for or about them than the next person.

What I really care about is the policies of our government and the overreaching abuses.

[Fuddnik]

63. Maybe the party was taken over by George Wallace Democrats.

Georgie would probably support the surveillance state. Gotta keep an eye on all those uppity hippies.

Fuck Rand Paul. He's an amateur. Ole Georgie was the real deal. He had more in common with Rahm Emmanual than Paul Wellstone.

And Libertarians would be more in tune with NAFTA, TPP, Welfare Reform, and Banking Deregulation, than civil rights, labor rights, and a viable social safety net.

Libertarians would probably support something like Chained CPI until it choked off Social Security completely.

I can't think of any Democrats who would support this Libertarian bullshit.

[Mnemosyne]

68. Go Stinky! You rock! nt

[The Philosopher]

69. You would think

we would be inspired by the President's efforts for bipartisanism. I guess not.

[mick063]

70. I wholeheartedly agree Stinky.

Diane Feinstein's recent proposal to require journalists to acquire Government certification should be raising red flags everywhere. The outrage should be thunderous. This is fascism. Fuck Godwin's law, we are emulating Nazis.

I hammer away to all whom I know, relentlessly.

This is the last chance for the Democratic Party. Either they get their liberal shit together or a grass roots campaign begins to abandon the Party for a third Party until the Democrats come to their senses.

If I get banned from DU for suggesting as much, then so be it. Having voted Democrat for the last 35 years, I feel somewhat entitled.

When forced out, I may abandon the party forever. I will bring as many with me as I can.


"Fear what the Republicans may do" my ass. The Democratic Party has become downright frightening.

[Uncle Joe]

71. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Stinky The Clown.

[Loudestlib]

72. Sad times

When I turned 18 I made sure that I was registered to vote and I made sure that I was registered as a Democrat. Most of my family were registered Republicans but I knew that the Democrats were for the little guy and my family was just voting against their own best interest. A presidential election was coming up that same year. I was joining the military, I didn't need a car anymore so I sold it. On election day everybody was working and wouldn't make it home in time to vote. My polling place was 2 miles away, so I set out with my voter registration card and ID and started walking. I got there an hour before closing and voted straight D down the ballot.

I've voted in every election and I always voted for the Democrat. Over the years I've been pretty happy with my party. The party that cares about workers, the party that cares about education, the party that cares about healthcare. As I've done better in my personal life, I would vote for higher taxes on myself and donate as much as I could to the most progressive candidates. By the time Obama came around I was maxing out my donations to his campaign. Whenever anyone would criticize Obama I would step up and defend him (even over the rumored SS cuts.) This NSA spying stuff is disappointing. I always associated this kind of McCarthism mainly with Republicans. The house Democrats seem to be against it but Obama is full on supporting and enabling this mess. He's offering no real oversight or limitations. He seems to be set on trying to fully legalize this domestic spying. I'll never vote for a Republican but I am going to stop supporting the DNC and only give to a few select progressives.

The Democratic party needs a wake up call. If this spying program is upsetting me, I can't imagine what it's doing to marginal Democrats.

[sabrina 1]

238. Nice post. You are one of many, many lifetime Democrats who are seriously wondering what

is going on with their party.

[ProSense]

77. The best thing about calling out the Pauls and their supporters is that

"We're the ones in favor of social justice

We're the ones who want all Americans to have access to health care "

it always leads to a reaffirmation of and support for Democratic values. I love it!!!

Obama's second term: A productive six months.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023482199

[Stinky The Clown]

81. Start a rebuttal thread. You're like a fart in a wondstorm here.

[ProSense]

92. There is nothing to rebut except the strawman claim, which I

mentioned in the second comment in this thread.

"You're like a fart in a wondstorm here."

That's really classy, and what's a "wondstorm"?

[Bluenorthwest]

104. Your trope is broke, your meme is maimed, your brand is burned....

Your spin is spun.

[Autumn]

114. Look at the rec's and it is done.

I finished it for you.

[ProSense]

143. Here's another thread

that got a lot of recs: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023474610

Good thing posting here is not a rec competition.

[Autumn]

148. That was a good OP.

[Stinky The Clown]

183. Man, you're now reduced to spelling barbs.

Like I said . . . . fart in a "wondstorm."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

86. Some value principles over principals. Imagine that.

[totodeinhere]

78. An enthusiastic K&R! n/t

[Kablooie]

79. If someone is for NSA spying simply because Paul is for it they are thinking like the Tea Party.

The Tea Party is automatically against anything the Democrts want. There is no thinking involved, it's an automatic response.
Even something they have wanted before, if Dems want it they now don't.
It's a stupid, childish philosophy.

One can easily be against someone while still having some points of agreement.
All it takes is a little thinking and consideration.

[99th_Monkey]

84. I think they have moved on to other equally lame talking points

something about "it's all hype" .. which of course is
the old "nothing to see here, look over there" trick.

[mick063]

95. The facepalming one:

Our President sent Congress a letter and was "surprised" a month later that the rank and file never received it.

A letter sent to committee leaders looking for a reason to impeach and our President trusted them to deliver this "important" message. Afterwards, shock and dismay that his system of proper oversight is a train wreck. Not shock on the President's part. He knew exactly what was going on. Shock on the part of those that swear fealty to him.

[damnedifIknow]

85. Right on!

[SammyWinstonJack]

87. K&R!

[MjolnirTime]

89. Not everyone. But most certainly the "heroes" Snowden, Greenwald, and Assange

They are all Libertarians and Paul supporters.

[crim son]

90. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking.

The response to this issue has been illuminating and, frankly, disturbing.

[tblue]

91. INDEED!

Thank you, Stinky!!!

[Hydra]

93. K and F'ing R

Well said Stinky- what is our party if we have no principles? Why even have a party at that point? The Republicans have the no principles thing totally covered.

[sabrina 1]

96. We are all sick of it. But by now, most people just ignore it and focus on trying to get something

done to end these Bush policies.

[Zorra]

97. It's just plain juvenile and stupid, and

I put them all on ignore because it became clearthat they had nothing real to say.

[East Coast Pirate]

99. Hear hear!

+10000000000000000000000000000

Now let's see them call a former mod a flamebating troll. (Haven't read tbe thread yet.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. On the issue of security vs privacy, there is a huge gender gap.

[Historic NY]

111. There lies the problem..........

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

[Egnever]

130. You dont think that shift could have anything to do with

the amendments made to eliminate the warantless wiretapping bush was doing?

Considering the first poll was from January a month after it was revealed what bush had been doing?

[JHB]

159. Those polls asked two different questions

2006: NSA has been investigating people suspected of terrorist involvement by secretly listening in on phone calls & reading emails without court approval...

2013: NSA has been getting secret court orders to track calls of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism...

The 2006 question involved illegal actions under Bush (and that's even after Bush asked for and received lighter restrictions; he still went illegal). That boosted opposition for the flouting of the law, not just partisanship. Putting them side-by-side while treating that important difference as a mere footnote is cheap and dishonest, and tries to reduce this important issue into partisan bickering. Which, in turn IMO, simply emboldens those throwing around accusations of "Paulite" for being upset at the president over this. (Ironic, because IIRC, it was GG who first pushed this juxtaposition of polls.)

This issue is about bureaucratic empire-building and profiteering within the agencies and by their contractors, and about Congress abdicating its responsibilities in favor of grandstanding. Reducing it to a party loyalty question will only help Republicans.

And a K&R for Stinky's OP.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

101. You are a jackass. You complain other Dems create divisions on NSA

Then you bring up a whole host of other issues and tell others "we're your conscience".

Sounds like you LOVE the conflict because you are adding to it.

[Bluenorthwest]

106. Ah, the direct namecalling. A wonderful feature of your work. Do you really think it elevates your

arguments to call others names? Or is it done purely for pleasure?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

109. Just getting tired of the fake condescension. Most of you are extremely flawed individuals too

So the frustration comes out. Why not call out the Clown's "fuck You" OP?

[Bluenorthwest]

116. What do you mean by 'most of you'? Do you mean gay people? I'm just one guy.

Calling people names and dropping insinuations about 'most of you' is condescending as hell. I support the OP because the OP is correct, I join the OP is saying 'fuck you' to those who play these McCarthyite games. I reject their entire way of thinking, their set of tactics and their petty, personalized mean kids style.
'Most of you'. Can you explain what that means? Also, explain why you feel the right to speak to me in that way. It is rude, arrogant, dismissive and perhaps homophobic. "most of you' is much like 'you people'.
Most of you. Wow.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

119. You're not a very forgiving person, are you?

You are nursing a grudge against me. Obviously by "most of you" I mean the people piling on Obama re: NSA spying issue.

What McCarthyite techniques are you talking about? You mean the ones where anyone who defends our DEMOCRATIC president is black balled and accused of being a paid operative?

[Bluenorthwest]

151. How is that obvious? Why would I have a 'grudge' against some internet poster?

I support transparency in government and do not support unhinged spying by the government upon the people from whom they derive any power they have.
Can you show me some example of me 'piling on Obama' about NSA spying? Or is that just more random verbiage hurled in hopes of doing harm to others?
I simply do not understand why you'd speak to me as if I was more than one person. The McCarthite tactic in question is your associating me with others 'you people' as you do. Calling those who support transparency Paulites, that sort of thing. The OP addressed it quite well.
'Most of you'. I reject that bullshit.

[bvar22]

196. I reject that bullshit too,

and so does Stinky in his OP.

[backscatter712]

122. Jury voted 3-3 to leave a direct ad-hominem attack.

I wasn't on the actual jury, so I don't have the full results.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

126. The whole OP was ad hominem attack on DU'ers who disagree with him.

Pretty pathetic, actually. Another 3-3 tie. I'm on a roll.

[BeyondGeography]

152. Really

"Fuck you, too"? Was a time when the mods would have benched you for that. At the very least, this thread would have been locked after five posts.

[zappaman]

163. You certainly are on a roll!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=298088&sub=trans

[Rex]

225. A Kaiser roll?

nt.

[zappaman]

236. Duh.

A danish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. Why I no longer participate in that system

It's a joke

[Stinky The Clown]

134. I know where you're coming from.

[Stinky The Clown]

182. By the way, your transparency page is showing.

Which shows me even more that I know where you're coming from.

[bvar22]

197. OUCH.

A "Piece of Work", that is.

[Starry Messenger]

229. He's coming from the grave.

Google his screen nick with "fabulous pink ponies". DU2 got shut of him, but now he's back.

[darkangel218]

237. i found it.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8546845

[BeyondGeography]

110. What a mess of an OP

So if we don't follow along with you on taking GG, Snowden and Assange at their word, we don't share liberal values like universal health care, social and economic justice et al? You're "our conscience" just because we dare to push back. A bunch of self righteous bullshit you're serving there.

[LondonReign2]

132. No, the OP means that if we believe the NSA is spying on us

it in no way indicates that we support Rand Paul. Attempts to link those who are against domestic spying to Rand Paul are simply pathetic, oft repeated, attempts at demonization and propaganda.

I would have thought you might have managed to understand that since it was so blatantly obvious.

[BeyondGeography]

149. There's a lot that's blatantly obvious in that stinky chocolate box of an OP

Your blindly benevolent misreading notwithstanding. Are you my conscience, too?

[Warren Stupidity]

112. The democratic party leadership has been running away from civil liberties issues since Nixon.

It is a fucking shame to cede this ground to acolytes of that dimwit "philosopher" Ayn Rand.

[Little Star]

113. k&r

[MotherPetrie]

115. They take their cue from Obama and the crowded space under his aircraft carrier sized bus

[msongs]

117. you will also be accused of being a foreign agent for China. hows that one eh? nt

[backscatter712]

118. K&R! This authoritarian, McCarthyist tactic needs to be a TOS violation.

The people who use such vile tactics don't belong on DU, and don't belong in the Democratic Party.

Since Skinner seems to think this is hunky-dory, this is why I put these characters on ignore. I come to Democratic Underground to have discussions with fellow Democrats.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

124. Lololol. You crack me up

[bvar22]

125. DURec.

Bizarro World here lately.

The descent into the unreal has been interesting to watch from an objective perspective. I thought we had reached the bottom last week when the NSA supporters, bankrupted of any reasonable arguments due to the continued revelations of NSA Spying, fell to the level of adolescent Name Calling.

But we took another step down this weekend.
Now we are seeing posts that just outright Deny Observable, Verifiable Reality.

None of it is real. Its all just hype.





You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Two words heard from a local party insider

Voter revolt

They fear it

[DevonRex]

129. Seems to me the ones talking about it are the ones "sick" of it.

So stop already. Just a thought.

[AgingAmerican]

131. They are projecting

NSA domestic spying is a Bush Cheney thing, and they know it.

[Octafish]

133. Well said, Stinky The Clown.

Gen. Clapper is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

[alp227]

137. REC #200 nt

[Egnever]

138. And I care what you are sick and tired of why?

or what anyone else on this board is sick and tired of for that matter.

[tsuki]

140. Hooray for Stinky The Clown!! I remember

CoIntelPro and Watergate. Same-O, Same-O, only on steroids.

[mike_c]

141. the K and the R....

Well said, my friend.

[whatchamacallit]

142. The depraved 'association smear' is a favorite of partisan hacks

This board is riddled with them. K&R!

[99Forever]

145. We sir, are not just the Democrats conscience..

... we are it's integrity and principled core.

I'm right with you on ALL counts.

[Phlem]

146. they're angry and they've got nothing.

That's when they start making shit up. And they are relentless, doubling down on the stupid like a good republican.

Yes that's right, when they talk there is an air of desperation and are very authoritarian about teh stupid.

There are quite a few of them I can name of the top of my head.

I try not to set anyone on ignore but sometimes you just have to. Now I've got 2 fucking people set on ignore which really pisses me off.

Me thinks the propagandist are getting paid overtime here on DU.

You are spot on my friend, I'm with you 100%

-p

[Whisp]

153. Stasi-bot, sycophant, cheerleader, pom pomer, apologist, authoritarian...

just a few that I have been called for supporting the President.

you'll get used to it, son. don't fret so over the little things.

[JoePhilly]

251. If only the Stasi-bot, sycophant, cheerleader, pom pomer, apologist, authoritarian ...

3rd way, DLC loving, DINO, good Germans ... would stop calling the good liberals "libertarians", DU would be awesome again!

That sums up this thread nicely.

[arcane1]

154. It seems like there are only two choices left here: "Obama Apologist" or "Obama Hater"

And it's pretty damned frustrating.

[felix_numinous]

157. K&R There is a lot of 'Left Baiting'

posts here, that go out if their way to use phrases that insult the left. I do not trust ANYONE who is trying to divide, disrupt or destroy discussions here by twisting and distorting our ethical standards, and this is what I see.

What's makes DU great are all the informative, funny, well thought out and respectful posters here. I am grateful for all of you who have taught me a lot.

What makes it suck are people who relentlessly use phrasing and name calling that ONLY serves to disrupt and drive away discussions-- you know who you are.

It is one thing to disagree with points of view and another thing entirely to use well known propaganda methods like baiting and character assassinations, as thought stopping techniques. And the rest of us need to recognize these and not play along.

On line forums offer a virtual interaction that make it possible for people to be much more rude and disruptive than they would be live. I often envision us in a room together, having a great party, when someone busts in and interrupts with irrelevant insults. And that is what this feels like.

If I was having a live discussion and someone busted in to call us Paulites, black helicopter leftists -- I think we would feel perfectly comfortable telling him or her to fuck off.

But that would be live-- here people can be passive aggressive and pretend to be civil, all the while using phrases that are chosen very carefully to bait others.

It is an interesting phenomena-- and I've concluded it's purpose is to aggressively DISRUPT any discussion about civil liberties, because every day we argue with these people--is another day all our energy, strength and focus are SUCKED out by us getting pissed off--preventing us from UNIFYING against the relentless shift to the right.

Peace~~Felix

[nradisic]

158. Amen!

Agree 100%

[Demo_Chris]

168. Hear hear! Note that those who excuse this tend to also excuse.........

Insurance mandates
Drone wars
Chained CPI
Obama's permanent tax cuts for the rich
etc.

[Howler]

169. Damn right Stinky The Clown!!

Thank you for saying it too. It was past time it was said!!!.

[baldguy]

170. I am getting fucking sick and tired of supposed liberal Democrats

Using Paulite RW libertarian Teabagger talking points to attack a sitting Democratic President.

[SunSeeker]

224. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

175. 248 Rec's so far.

And the same old handful of name calling, snark infested posters whose first language seems to be Emoticon.

[Douglas Carpenter]

181. knr

[DirkGently]

184. I question the motives of those who question our motives.

Which ultimately gets us nowhere, of course. Still, those still stomping around chucking bile about guilt by Paul family association or "racism" or "ratfucking" or Booz Allen / Chinese conspiracy theories cannot seriously believe they are arguing in good faith, nor can I take them seriously when they complain about an uncivil tone, which seems to be happening more as the facts continue to fail to be frightened away.

[Quantess]

186. Seconded!

A-fucking-men. I've had just about enough.

[rhett o rick]

192. Please, please tell me our government wouldnt lie to us. nm

[DeSwiss]

195. K&R

[dflprincess]

201. Thank you Stinky the Clown n/t

[Doctor_J]

202. Meh. We were already kicked out for complaining about Heritage Care.

And Obama's proposal to cut SS and Medicare. And the extension of the Bush tax cuts. And the union-busting in WI. I forget - where was Rand Paul on those issues....wait...maybe THE PRESIDENT IS A PAULITE.

We've been disowned but will be blamed when the party takes another ass-kicking next fall.

[madville]

207. Imagine this story breaking between 2001-2008

Everyone here would be calling for the impeachment of Bush & Cheney over this or it would have been added to the list of reasons anyway

[SunSeeker]

232. It did, and no one gave a shit.

But then Glenn Greenwald was not marketing it.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

234. For someone who wasn't here -

during the Bush years, you sure have a good memory. Spying WAS talked about here, it WAS railed against, many of us DID protest (along with the other Bush crimes) it IRL.

[SunSeeker]

241. LOL. The poster I was replying to was here since 2005...

and obviously did not see what you describe.

[awoke_in_2003]

210. Fuck em. nt

[NRaleighLiberal]

212. Kick and Rec.

[Oakenshield]

214. Couldn't agree more Stinky!

And thank you. This thread has brought out quite a few pretenders, thus making it so easy to add them to my ignore list.

[Eko]

215. I am against the spying

but we have known about it since 2006. What I don't understand is the outrage that is coming out now when we have known about it for seven years.

[Swiperthefox]

216. Well said, Stinky!

Looong time lurker finally registering to rec the op. I'm sickened by the condescending tone and utter unethical way the sock puppet brigade uses to catapult their transparent talking points.

Keep up the good fight, guys/gals!

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

220. Indeed

! Just a generation back Rockefeller liberal right wing, as I recall when the New York Thruway was up for the vote ,that is not yet under construction ,what was put to the people is a toll would be put in place to help pay for New York Thruway .Than the people were told that when it is all built and payed for the toll will be removed. And so the people voted for it. But those tolls were never ever removed and so the people were lied to by the than governor of New York state Nelson Rockefeller. And the lies never stopped either.

Ok so back at the one room school house ,I should wonder if anybody remembers the teacher who used the saying a lot,you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make the horse drink !

There is a point to this ,I leave to those who want to be in the know to figure it out. !

* The idea was to respond to Stinky The clowns original post !

[Eyerish]

231. K&R

[blkmusclmachine]

233. A Bipartisan POLICE STATE...

[grahamhgreen]

240. I love you, baby!!!! Time to seperate the wheat from the chaffe.

[laundry_queen]

242. Happy to K&R this. nt

[great white snark]

243. You're just an insulting fellow.

Insulting our intelligence with this crap and insulting people who disagree with you.

[idwiyo]

244. K&R

[annabanana]

247. BAM!.. Thank you Stinky!

I wonder sometimes if everyone who ever received a nickle for "engaging social media" went 'poof' on this board, how much it would go back to its roots?

[myrna minx]

249. The level of intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking. K&R n/t

[thablueprint.]

250. Cons are such hypocrites

Tea partiers think that NSA spying started under the obama administration and that its something from the "liberal agenda", when it was actually started by bush with the patriot act signed in 2001!

[JNelson6563]

253. Got links?

Frankly I am tired of seeing these declaration OPs proclaiming you can't hardly swing a block of government cheese without hitting someone who loves the spying program and dismisses all who don't as evil incarnate.

Oh sure it's a quick way to rack up a "monster thread" with many recs and be a DU hero!1! But the problem is I don't really see the stuff these great DU heroes are saving us from?

So yeah, links, quotes, anything besides your inference of what someone who disagrees with you once said would be helpful. Of course that is, if credibility means anything, which it doesn't really seem to these days.

Julie

[Stinky The Clown]

255. No links to real life, Julie

Sorry.

The world is not limited to DU. The OP alludes to real life. Read it again and you'll see.

So if you want links, look elsewhere. They're usually blue.

[JNelson6563]

259. Mea culpa

I thought you were merely perpetuating the on-going wars here at DU.

I see such threads all the time but have never heard (IRL) or read anyone say they support the NSA spying on the citizenry. Threads such as yours always paint a picture that such sentiment is EVERYWHERE, I thought surely there'd be plenty of examples here in DU land.

Lastly, I did realize links are usually blue and hadn't noticed any in your post, thus my initial request.


Julie

[Stinky The Clown]

260. Now that that's all cleared up, have a swell day.

[JNelson6563]

261. And you as well.

[AikidoSoul]

256. I'm with you on each and every point.

What I would like to know.... is what has driven many Democrats so far to the right, compared to twenty years ago. Is it basically that their souls have been purchased by big money?

[TeamPooka]

257. K&R!

[scarletwoman]

262. *kick* One of the best threads ever! Thank you, Stinky! (nt)

[rhett o rick]

263. Here are some links to other NSA posts.

Last edited Thu Oct 10, 2013, 01:00 AM - Edit history (8)

The Guardian: The NSA Files
http://www.theguardian.com/world/the-nsa-files

How The NSA Deploys Malware: An In-Depth Look at the New Revelations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023818959

Feinstein’s Phony Excuse for NSA Spying
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101675361

Attacking 'Tor': How the NSA Targets Users' Online Anonymity...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014611160#post9

NSA director admits agency trawls Twitter/Facebook but insists they are NOT building personal files-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014609181

NSA stores metadata of millions of web users for up to a year, secret files show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014606615

N.S.A. Gathers Data on Social Connections of U.S. Citizens (NYT)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023743322

N.S.A. Examines Social Networks of U.S. Citizens (Decision Made In Secret 2010)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014605329

Dianne Feinstein Accidentally Confirms That NSA Tapped The Internet Backbone
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3740768

NSA Employee Spied on Nine Women Without Detection, Internal File Shows...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014604898

Sen. Ron Wyden: NSA "repeatedly deceived the American people"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11781761

[NYC_SKP]

264. Ah! Bookmarking for later.