K & R if you think Greenwald and Snowden have helped to pressure the govt. wrt spying

[Bonobo]

as well as helped to educate the public about the issue.

Greenwald: ‘We haven’t harmed national security, we’ve informed the debate’
The Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald joins NOW with Alex to discuss the effect of NSA leaker Edward Snowden’s surveillance revelations and the media focus so far on his whereabouts.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/now/52499993#52499993

[chimpymustgo]

1. They are heroes who forced the govt to admit its illegal spying on the American people.

We wouldn't be talking about it, if they hadn't been brave.

Snowden is a true hero and patriot.

[Cryptoad]

28. and,,,,

exactly what are the change you want to make?

[chimpymustgo]

45. I want the govt to stop spying and stop lying. Transparency and truth.

Not asking much for a real democracy, no?

[Cryptoad]

47. That is kinda like saying

im for apple pie and cute babies,,,,,,

talk is cheap

tell us how you achieve these simple changes of yours,,,

Do you want to quit all spying?

do you want to stop all lying?

do tell ,,,,, how would you do this?

[chimpymustgo]

52. Actually, it's easy. Stop spying on Americans and stop lying about it. All of it.

Get smarter to catch your "terrorists."

The government has invaded our privacy, squandered our trust, spent our tax dollars - for what?

Greed and intimidation.

[Cryptoad]

53. Still

vague generalities. Great Bumper sticker lines but nothing that offers any solutions. I am starting to think you have no solutions.

[chimpymustgo]

54. How hard is it to stop spying and stop lying about it? Still...obtuse generalities.

[Enthusiast]

81. The Toad offers many obtuse generalities

in an effort to bolster the weak argument.

[Lonr]

75. The changes I demand, as an American citizen, are

1. Our government MUST respect the Constitution of the United States, including the Bill of Rights.
2. All laws that violate #1 must be repealed.
3. End the perpetual war.

This is a minimum!

[Cryptoad]

79. you really

think there are people who do not want your three edicts????

geeez

[ProSense]

2. Let's see if

"K & R if you think Greenwald and Snowden have helped to pressure the govt. wrt spying"

...it's about Greenwald and Snowden and not reform.

Kick and rec if you support the proposed NSA reforms.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481937

Given how proposed reforms are ignored, I'd say how Greenwald and Snowden are perceived is more important.

[Bonobo]

7. You seem upset. nt

[ProSense]

14. No, just pointing out that it is about Greenwald and Snowden.

Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2013, 12:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Claims to the contrary are disingenuous.

[Katashi_itto]

41. You sound upset

[last1standing]

65. She is. Today's talking points aren't working.

It's hard when the propaganda machine can't come up with any good ways to distract and dehumanize.

[Enthusiast]

83. She should try calling names.

or distorting the meaning of one's post. That's a good means of distraction.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. LOL

So this is actually a copycat thread.

Funny how the OP turned around and made it about Snowden and Greenwald.

But remember, it's never about them....until it is....or some shit like that.

[Mojorabbit]

36. Facts baby. The info was released. Conversation globally ensued. Fin. nt

[sabrina 1]

46. Succinctly stated! n/t

[reusrename]

50. It's really all about the boxes in their garages.

I can't believe how incredibly strong the denial is. It overshadows any and all reason.

[Summer Hathaway]

80. You might want to do a web search

to find out exactly who talks about "boxes in garages".

It's the Snowden fans who keep harping on a topic that the Snowden detractors have never been even remotely interested in.

That should be your first clue - but then you're not really interested in facts, are you?

[reusrename]

88. Nope, it's from No. 3 in a Politico hit piece: "Top 10 Things to Know About Snowden"

3. Wasn’t a friendly neighbor. Snowden most recently lived in Hawaii with his girlfriend before leaving in early May, and neighbors say he didn’t stop to chat much. According to The Telegraph, a neighbor told a local television station: “We occasionally saw him as he was coming or going, or checking mail, or getting the garbage. We would say ‘Hi, how’s it going? How are you?’ and he would just rush inside.” Neighbors also said Snowden had boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage for the entire six months he lived there.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/10-things-to-know-about-edward-snowden-92491.html#ixzz2aB4sMVUq

Can't make this stuff up.

[marmar]

3. k/r

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Obviously, or the regime wouldn't be pursuing Snowden and making CYA statements.

http://www.btlonline.org/2013/seg/130823af-btl-crockford.html

Interview with Kade Crockford, director of the Technology for Liberty project at the ACLU of Massachusetts, conducted by Scott Harris

BETWEEN THE LINES: President Obama says he's long an advocate of reforming these surveillance systems, indicating that Edward Snowden's revelations to The Guardian newspaper, the Washington Post, and others, really have nothing to do with it. Why don't you give us your take? What role do you think he played in provoking the White House, the president, to come out with these reform proposals?

KADE CROCKFORD: Well, Edward Snowden clearly played a very essential role. I think everybody in the country is incredibly attuned to the kind of surveillance that the NSA has been conducting only as a result of Edward Snowden's leaks, as a result of him blowing the whistle to the American public about what our government has been doing in the shadows for a number of years.

[pscot]

6. The country needs a new medal

The Edward Snowden Medal of Freedom, awarded for conspicuous service to the Constitution of the United States. I'd give the first one to Greenwald.

[Fire Walk With Me]

8. Snowden is a hero for exposing rampant, illegal government spying upon Americans. n/t

[wtmusic]

9. k/r

[Rockyj]

10. K & R

Hero!
[link:

|

[limpyhobbler]

12. No the whole thing was a racist conspiracy by Rand Paul to bolster the teabagger brand

[sabrina 1]

22. Lol, that has to be the best CT yet!

They have become Comic Relief, the attempts to distract from the issue itself.

[LondonReign2]

39. +1000

Pathetic attempts at distraction are pathetic

[Waiting For Everyman]

13. Definitely so.

I think that is undeniabe by anybody who is being even halfway honest about it.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. welcome to DU

nice first post
carry on

[Divernan]

58. The poster you replied to surely holds the record for deep cover/sleeper agent.

I didn't have the opportunity to read the content of the post you responded to, since it was deleted, but you referred to it as a "first post". I checked to see if the person had just joined DU, and was surprised to read:

"Account status: Posting privileges revoked
Member since: 2003 before July 6th"

Between that example and the new folks who start right out posting 500 to a thousand posts a month, things are getting curioser and curioser.

[NorthCarolina]

35. I think you can get "un-sick" then because the NSA apologists are not really "progressives".

They are conservative minded, posing as Democrats, and they are here to do a job. They do not seek that which is of benefit to the general public, they are organized to spread the impression that anyone who disagrees with their position is WAY WAY outside the norm. That's how propaganda works. We used to fight that in other countries, and we labelled them communists. Apparently we have segments who now work to replicate those tactics here in America.

[Salviati]

38. I don't think that "communists" is quite the right label

authoritarians, establishmentarians would be better. They are the type that aren't interested in any ideology in particular, merely in obtaining and retaining power.

This isn't to say that pure ideologues are preferable, but that a balance between these two tendencies is needed. It seems at the moment that the democratic party has a surfeit of establishmentarians, and the republicans have a problem with ideologues.

[NorthCarolina]

43. My inference was that is "what we called them then".

We're not those we labelled "communists" simply "authoritarians" and "establishmentarians"?

[iamthebandfanman]

86. Spoken like a paid operative!

jk

in all seriousness tho, you know same could be said of what youre doing..
"spread the impression that anyone who disagrees with their position is WAY WAY outside the norm"

[1-Old-Man]

16. Of course they have informed the public, informed us of a Government gone horribly wrong.

K&R, you're damed right K&R.

[sabrina 1]

17. Greenwald is correct!

[leftstreet]

18. Yep

[burnodo]

20. K&R

[raouldukelives]

21. K&R nt

[Fuddnik]

23. Kick and Rec.

We need more Snowdens and Ellsbergs!

[sarcasmo]

24. Kick!

[tblue]

25. Oh absolutely! nt

[ljm2002]

26. Of course they have...

...whatever one thinks of their purported political leanings.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a Cheney-loving, PNAC-supporting Bush-licking Republican.

Okay, that last bit may have been a bit over the top. I was channeling...

[WillyT]

27. K & R !!!

[snappyturtle]

29. K&R +1 Thanks. nt

[deurbano]

30. K & R!! Would add Poitras (especially) and Gellman.

Another benefit is the increased visibility they have given to (previously, largely unknown) whistleblowers like Binney and Drake.

[xchrom]

31. du rec.

[Uncle Joe]

32. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Bonobo.

[NorthCarolina]

33. K&R

[Hell Hath No Fury]

34. We wouldn't be having this discussion right now -

otherwise. Scratch that, some of us would have had the discussion (the same one we had when BushCo was doing the spyng) but the larger populace & Washington would not.

[burnodo]

40. It's funny

Without Snowden and Greenwald, those who talked about NSA spying, PRISM, etc. would be sequestered to the CT forum

[RC]

44. Denial is not just a river in Egypt,

it runs fast deep here too.

[DonCoquixote]

37. Yes

That does not mean I ignore the fact they are not trustworthy, it just means that they are the proverbial broken clock, which make it worse for Obama, as his failure to do the right things made him prey to these clowns.

[99th_Monkey]

42. K & R ~ nt

[reusrename]

48. k & r

They've done their part, it's time we do ours. We need meaningful discussion.

[liberal_at_heart]

49. K&R

[MotherPetrie]

51. K&R

[hwmnbn]

55. K&R

[nashville_brook]

56. k and r

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. Without a doubt (nt)

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. even if a person hated Greenwald and Snowden and supported the surveillance state and wants more of

it - it would be impossible for anyone living at all in the world of reality to deny that Greenwald and Snowden has helped pressure the government on this matter

[fascisthunter]

60. definitely... heroic

[DeSwiss]

61. Pretty much the ONLY ones. - K&R n/t

[East Coast Pirate]

62. What does wrt spying mean?

[Egalitarian Thug]

69. with regard to. n/t

[East Coast Pirate]

73. Ah...Thank you.

[DirkGently]

63. The panicked, increasingly frantic attacks in

this forum demonstrate that well enough.

[lordsummerisle]

64. K&R n/t

[xocet]

66. K & R n/t

[NealK]

67. K&R

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. Anyone that tries to deny this is simply a fool. K&R

I don't particularly like either of these men, but they are the reason this issue is prominent.

[blkmusclmachine]

70. The Burgeoning POLICE STATE is M-A-D...

[Jack Rabbit]

71. Yes, they most certainly have

The "nothing to see here, what domestic spying?" crowd is left with nothing to say.

Now, let's work together, all of us, to lift the scourge of government secrecy and duplicity from our lives. It has no place in a democratic state.

[Th1onein]

72. knr

[idwiyo]

74. K&R

[Smarmie Doofus]

76. People still dispute this? Good god. That's unsettling. kick, rec. nt

[railsback]

77. I'm still waiting

for ALL those whistleblower names Greenwald said have been thrown in the slammer for DECADES and disappeared.

[Recursion]

78. Do you think Congress will come to a better decision now than if the quieter reforms had gone on?

I think it's an open question, at least.

[Bonobo]

82. I don't think reforms were likely to have happened

without a great deal of public pressure.

[Recursion]

85. Possibly. For that matter I doubt reforms will happen now.

I don't think there is any reform package that the House, Senate, and White House would agree on.

[cantbeserious]

84. Kick And Recommend

eom

[TBF]

87. We wouldn't see Greenwald's partner being accosted at the airport

and Snowden seeking asylum if they hadn't .

The apologists can attempt to spin this in circles all they want but the damage has been done. If the dem party is at all intelligent they would figure out a way to use this rather than simply deny, deny, deny (which is not working for them).

[mntleo2]

89. Kick!