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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI Am Beyond Sick/Tired Of Being Called An "Authoritarian NSA Apologist".
I insist on facts regarding the NSA and not exaggerations, falsehoods and lies of omission.
I question the timing of the NSA information coming out and the manner in which it is being released and reported on.
I question why the Republican controlled Intelligence Committee didn't pass on information from the White House regarding the NSA.
I question why the timelines built from various statements made by Greenwald, Snowden etc over the last month or so don't fit properly.
I question the motives of Snowden, Greenwald and the entire Wikileaks team because Snowden, Greenwald and Assange have all aligned themselves w/politicians who are intent on destroying the Democratic party. As imperfect as the Democratic Party is, it's what we have to work with.
I did a poll a few weeks back on DU and only one single solitary person voted a show of confidence in the NSA to leave it alone as it is.
EVERY OTHER PERSON WHO VOTED INDICATED AT LEAST IT NEEDED TO BE REIGNED IN.
So why the heck are so many of us getting called "Authoritarian NSA Apologists"?
Why are some liberal discussion boards shouting down those of us trying to sort through information and find out what exactly is happening?
Why, when something ends up being incorrect, exaggerated or incomplete do some liberals refuse to accept that?
Why are some liberals so quick to embrace Greenwald (who said outright he favors Nader's tactics), Snowden who is on the record as a social security hating libertarian and Assange who supports Paul?
So far the entire NSA story seems to have been quite well orchestrated well before Greenwald's first story from Snowden's leaks.
Who orchestrated this whole story and who funded it and what their motives are MATTERS. And knowing that it matters doesn't make me or anyone else an Authoritarian or an Apologist.
It matters because if facts are being massaged to further an agenda, then the facts may not be as cut and dry as some liberals want to believe.
I actually can deal with a political reality that exists as shades of gray. It is really too bad so many self-professed liberals typing away on the internet are obviously not comfortable with shades of gray but require a black/white dichotomy.
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cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)I have to ask what shoe you are even talking about.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Do NOT say any wrong thing about Snowden or Greenwald, OR label anyone who supports them as Libertarians, because then you of course deserve any namecalling you get. Because THEY are right in their labelling of you. You just can't do it back.
Silly sandbox.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)Every step of the way the Snowden haters have been wrong on the facts. To point where it's become a standing joke around here.
They aren't recording our calls or copying our emails. That's just impossible!
They certainly aren't peeking without a warrant. That's just speculation!
No one forced President Evo Morales' jet to land. That's just a big fat lie!
Now ya'll are arguing that Snowden and Greenwald, et al, are all terrorists.
It's baffling to try and follow how you get to that conclusion.
When will ya'll realize that you may not be looking at things correctly?
villager
(26,001 posts)Indeed. Indeed.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)
Webster Green
(13,905 posts)Heh!
He had every right to run, and his critique of the difference in the two parties being the speed at which they drop to their knees for their corporate rulers is obviously right on the money.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The party is not made stronger by the inclusion of people who believe every conspiracy theory they are fed about the government and intelligence agencies just because and who now respond to everything anyone in the government says on this issue including President Obama with a knee-jerk "I don't believe him/them" with zero evidence to support that assertion.
Yes, I know, COINTELPRO, etc. 40 years ago stuff.
The folks I want in the Democratic party are those progressives, moderates and centrists who are level headed and deliberate. If it turns out that some report is right that the government has done something wrong let's go about deliberately examining it and fixing it. This hair on fire stuff is completely unappealing.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)You say some of the damnedest things.
Rex
(65,616 posts)What he says is totally predictable.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)
... and you claim I say the darndest things?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I love the expression, "hair on fire." For me, it expresses the frustration of people who cannot express their emotions effectively in the face of people who can.
Good writers can express their emotions and affect the feelings of others. If you want to call it "hair on fire," be my guest.
I prefer to have my "hair on fire" to becoming a frog slowly brought to boil in water.
The government has done and is doing something wrong by collecting the metadata of Americans.
I have to assume, as one who speaks and reads foreign languages, that every time I access the website of a foreign newspaper, the surveillance state observes my reading habits. i do not like that at all.
People who do not read or understand foreign languages, people who have traveled only as tourists and do not have friends and family in foreign countries may not understand how people feel who do.
I want to have the freedom on the internet to read any website I want and learn about anything I want without being placed under surveillance by idiots in our government with not a modicum of my education or understanding. Is that too much to ask?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)every claim as if it is true and jumping on every skeptic as if they are Fascists.
HumansAndResources
(229 posts)Are we going to continue to believe Known Liars in government? Are we going to continue fall for the smears of those that expose them?
Look into Yugoslavia - how the US broke up the existing peace treaty to get that war going, so the Transnationals could grab up all of that land, resources and put those people into the land of "Want a drink? - pay Pepsico for the privilege." The cold war ended - did we get Peace? No, NATO expanded to the Russian border, just as they feared it would - their justification for the Eastern Bloc was proven true. Then the Georgia sneak-attack, and on and on.
So far, only the Bolivians and Venezuelans have managed to "say no" to the "offer they could not refuse" - the "we will own your country or else" offer - from Mafia-Transnationals and their "Intelligence" assistants. THAT is what all this is about - not "our safety."
There has been Zero Accountability for the West's war-crimes, most committed by "Intelligence" services and the State Dept - usually when some Natural Resources needed to be stolen for Billionaire-interests. Heck, Kissinger even gets invited on CNN as an "honored guest." How many millions' blood does one need on one's hands to be considered a "criminal"? Just take Indonesia and East Timor for starters - never mind Pinochet (for Rockefeller's Copper Mines) and Operation Condor (google "sausage links" with that).
So, yes, we darn well better oppose giving more power / surveillance to these "intelligence" agency war-criminals and known torturers. We have some of the goods on them, thanks to Mr Snowden. Hopefully, he can live in Iceland some day - or even the USA, if we elect a President "Of The People" vs one who will buckle "For The Transnationals."
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I haven't been a Democrat for some time, but I sure hope they start to lose votes over this.
But then we hear, "Vote for us or the Republicans win." Maybe technically true, but there is a moral imperative in note voting for things and people you do not support.
I'm pretty fucking sick of mainstream Democrats these days. They can and should rot in hell for the evil they have done. They are worse than Republicans because they should know better.
I hate authoritarians with a vengeance and I despise anyone who would side with the NSA over our rights. Fuck them all.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)You have a strong start that I personally agree with, and then you go off into la la land about a grand libertarian plot led by Greenwald and Assange. Well maybe you don't go quite that far when you question their motives, but others you tend to agree with here are making those claims.
It seems that at best you are enabling the government's attacks on Snowden the person and at worst propagating them. The motives of Snowden et al. are chaff meant to distract us from the facts and statements of insiders.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)The government has charged him with crimes he would be the first to admit that he did. It is also clear that he, by himself, has made the harmed the US foreign policy.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Our massive surveillance of the communications in foreign countries has hurt our foreign policy. But Snowden had no power to determine any of the policies that govern or permit the surveillance.
It isn't Snowden or the documents he has published or his statements or his personality or anything having to do with Snowden that has hurt our foreign policy.
It is the hypocrisy of our own surveillance program and the threat that program poses to individuals and politicians in foreign countries that hurts our foreign policy.
Snowden is just an ordinary person who has not in any way intervened in our foreign policy.
It isn't like Nixon negotiating with the Vietnamese to make sure that Johnson could not stop the Viet Nam war.
Snowden simply revealed a program that puts a lie to many of our public statements about our foreign policy.
The more sophisticated nations like China and Russia and many others already take the pompous sounding declarations of our government as so much tabaccy for domestic American chewing.
It is the confidence of Americans in the current US government and in particular in the surveillance state apparatus that Snowden has harmed.
That has nothing to do with our foreign policy. It has to do with what we will demand of our next president -- a truly free society without this excessive surveillance.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)are now using that to generate outrage - often to help their own standing in their country. You say - "It is the confidence of Americans in the current US government and in particular in the surveillance state apparatus that Snowden has harmed." Why are you unconcerned that Snowden has hurt the confidence of the American people in a DEMOCRATIC administration? Also, why do you see this this as affecting just Americans.
I do agree that part of the foreign reaction is kabuki theatre played up by the American press against Obama. Read any of the articles of Kerry going to Columbia and Brazil - that are mostly before he went - the articles overstate the "coolness" he faced, especially in Columbia. Yet the fact was he did answer questions on this in both countries. However, from the pictures and speeches linked to by the State Department twitter account, his visit did not give Fox News the desired negative pictures or sound bites. It is interesting that in the US ALL the coverage dealt with NSA.
This is partly media bias, but the NSA issue is being exaggerated - just as ALL this year's faux scandals were. However, that does not mean that this issue had no effect. There are hints of what was lost. Kerry impressed the President of Brazil by knowing Portuguese. In addition, he had a very nice visit with wounded soldiers in Columbia. In Kerry, the US has probably the best ambassador of goodwill since JFK. What I am talking about is an opportunity cost. Link to Kerry and the Brazil FM - http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2013/08/213105.htm , Brazil photos - http://www.flickr.com/photos/statephotos/sets/72157635056586474/ , Several Columbia photos - http://www.flickr.com/photos/statephotos/9494783643/in/photostream/, http://www.flickr.com/photos/statephotos/9495499196/ I realize that words or a different SOS are not enough to correct the problems we have with Latin America, but this was a US shot in the foot. Now, you see Snowden as a hero; I see him as an arrogant jerk.
As to the next President, which Democrat or Republican will take a stand that YOU see as meeting your demands?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Because one set of people are releasing information. The government isn't. That set of people are not releasing everything, they're releasing what they want to further the story they are trying to tell.
They could be telling us everything they have, or they could be holding back important details. We don't know. So their personalities become incredibly relevant, because that's all we have to measure their leaks.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)...the government. We question authority because it's our duty to do so. And it's our duty to be suspicious of those who promote surveillance. If presidents would stop lying to us, this might be a more peaceful community.
The Link
(757 posts)
Skittles
(153,142 posts)
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)resort to that kind of name-calling.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Those who are on soapboxes about claiming they're on the side of right in their Snowden support should witness their bomb-lobbing compatriots.
East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts) 
East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)I think it's very cool that you're on television. I still view technology like a caveman viewing a mudslide. It's awful but awesome too.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)you couldn't even come up with your own you had to applaud someone else's.
Well played sir/ma'am. Please continue.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I have had it up to here with people who defend the indefensible.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)that was a "good" child molestation. By definition, they're not good.
Thanks for playing.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)funny, but not unexpected
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)gosh who was that running up and down DU calling people that, it'll come to me 
Grateful for Hope
(39,320 posts)
Puglover
(16,380 posts)
tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)
-p
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)The corporate DLClinton Reagancrats have done more damage than any NSA whistleblower could dream of
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)makes no sense. you hate them and yet you support democratic candidates and work to get them elected. why?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)That whole "lesser evil" thing is growing increasingly threadbare.
On the ground level, the party generally seems to be okay, but by the time they achieve federal political office, they seem to have transformed themselves into Corporocrats.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Also, the federal system is designed to encourage gridlock, making the choice between principled irrelevance and subpar achievements unavoidable in many cases.
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)The subject was the motivations of the Democratic party, not the motivations of the voters
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)than it is today.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Or, should we leave it to the administration and NSA to investigate themselves?
chowder66
(9,066 posts)and maybe a little more balance sure could help all sides. If only two sides of an argument are presented separately (one side vs the other) then any other arguments or viewpoints have a higher chance of being dismissed. And broad-brushing, pigeon-holing, name-calling do no favors to any side of any argument. Emotions can get the better of us but maybe if we were all more mindful and stopped ourselves from thinking/calling a person is Authoritarian or Racist because of a disagreement then maybe we can get back to better understanding the meat of the issues and the solutions or steps that need to be presented to our elected officials.
DU and humans in general can do better.
It's a shame that names/labels are being flung around at all.
I would be happy to see the following disappear from discussions;
authoritarian
racist
cheerleader
worshiper
obama-bot
apologist
neo-liberal
far left
centrist (as a dig)
corporatist
true liberal
paid shills
hero worshiper
(insert politicians name here) and any of the above mentioned digs here
Sad, ain't it?
Igel
(35,296 posts)Or if they can't refrain from being snarky at least make the name calling clever and interesting. So much the better if the person insulted isn't quite sure.
chowder66
(9,066 posts)raise the level of discourse and actually result in some kind of consensus which could in turn become a real solution or action to be taken.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)But my long posts, I fear, are often not read.
That's why people use nasty language -- because they know they can quickly express their feelings with them.
Reason takes a lot of thought and a good argument is not always quick and easy to read.
Rex
(65,616 posts)it is "Paulbot, Randite, Naderoid SnowGlen worshiper". I'm not sure which side is more hype. I can tell you think for yourself, which is good enough for me!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)first spoke out.
One thing I will say for all the emotional name-calling, it has kept this issue at the top of the forum. And in my view that makes it all worthwhile.
Although I tend more toward long, long-winded arguments and explanations than name-calling. Not may style -- name-calling. I usually ignore the name-calling.
Triana
(22,666 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:17 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm disturbed by the extent of NSA spying, of course and want something done about it. But I'm not surprised about it - that's going on and has been for at least a decade. Us old-time DUers remember raising holy hell about it back with Bu$h implemented it - the Patriot Act and all that spying mess. Much of what they were doing was illegal. Their solution wasn't to stop doing it. It was to try to make it legal in gross violation of every American's constitutional rights by every contortion of law they could think of. And it's STILL ILLEGAL.
It's not a surprise. It's a good thing that the nation is now finally PAYING ATTENTION and AWARE of it whereas it largely was not before -- mostly because people are lazy/complacent. But at least something FINALLY got their damned attention. Too bad it had to be these goons.
Nonetheless I will not idolize or heroize these characters - any of them. I'm sure they all have their motives and I doubt they are entirely altruistic/patriotic. And if they're Republican/libertarian then I trust their motives even less. Is it good they've brought this stuff to light? Sure.
But Americans would have known about it had they the consciousness and attention span to put down their damned beer and shut off the TV, learn to read and pay attention for more than 5 seconds to something besides their own immediate little individual worlds for once. (their grocery list, their SUV, their sporting events, their NetFlix, their yard, etc.).
Citizenship demands more than just voting every 2-4 years, paying taxes and occasional jury duty. People need to be ACTIVE, INVOLVED, AND PAYING ATTENTION to what the HELL is going on. As much as I blame government overreach and their "we do it because we can" attitude, government dysfunction on bu$h and his fucking evil minions and the GOP/John Birch Society/ALEC/WallStKoch Bros. contingent - I also blame plain American laziness and complacency. You can't COAST along as citizens and keep a Democracy. YOU. WILL. LOSE. IT. It will be taken from you right under your noses. And that's what has happened.
We all have a part in having stood by and LET too much of this shit happen. Now look where we are. Damn.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)Fail
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)will be going into your permanent record.
East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)Fail
Warpy
(111,237 posts)"Doc, it hurts when I lift my knee up to my chin."
"Then stop lifting your knee up to your chin"
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Either you abhor all this illegal spying on Americans by the NSA et. al. , OR you don't.
Which is it?
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)It's based on your apparently unshakeable belief that the US is illegally spying on any (ALL?) Americans, just because Snowden said the NSA MIGHT be able to do so.
You have no proof.
So, is my saying that what the "apologist" part means to you? Because if you think it means some people here are OK with the NSA spying on Americans, you're making a claim based on an unproven belief. The most anyone has done is to say your claim has not been proven by Snowden's 'revelations'.
If that's all it takes to make an "apologist", you have a pretty low bar.
As for "Authoritarian", what's that? Someone who thinks Snowden should go to jail for breaking laws? Then get Congress to change them. Holding that opinion doesn't rise to the level.
It's a lofty label full of baaaad baaaad-sounding stuff, but there's nothing to it.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)a) the fact that the guv-mint spy agencies are so freaked out by what Snowden released. i.e. they are now going after Greenwald's partner, detaining him for 9 hours, under draconian terror laws.
b) the fact that US Sen. Wyden has confirmed that he knew about the illegal spying, but was GAGGED by the NSA from talking about it.
c) It is widely recognized that Clapper lied through his teeth to Congress, under oath, famously saying he wasn't lying, he was being "the least untruthful". He lied because he knows he is illegally spying, in violation of the constitution.
Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #46)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Why are so many still in denial, especially on this site? If there weren't really a illegal spying problem, then just why is this subject is still so high profile after all these months? It should have died the day after the talking heads read a blurb about it on the evening news. The reality is, this is so big, the memory hole is not swallowing it. Some here need to get a clue.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It VIOLATES THE FIRST AMENDMENT because it chills our speech and our right to a free press. It is intimidating. People who have new ideas or who question "the system" will think twice before publicly expressing their opinions on the internet. That is proof that it will chill speech.
Because it is secret and wholly within the executive branch, it VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION'S FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT OF SEPARATION OF POWERS -- THREE CO-EQUAL BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT.
It gives to the executive the ability to obtain all kinds of information about Americans and trade and corporations, all kinds of information to which the other branches of government are not allowed to obtain and have no means to obtain. It permits the executive branch to acquire power over the legislative and judicial branches in that the executive branch can place the communications of our judges and legislators under surveillance without the knowledge of the judges or legislators and thus interfere in our democratic processes. Of course, the program also permits the executive to have superior knowledge about the communications of all involved in the political process and all who inform or express opinions to the public (journalism).
So, the program is not constitutional. It may be temporarily legal, but it is not constitutional in my view. So far, no one has successfully refuted my arguments on this.
The program is unconstitutional. It may take many years for the Supreme Court to squirm its way to agreement with me. But I am right on these points. I just hope that our republic, our democracy hangs together long enough for the Supreme Court to express its agreement with me.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)were bush still in office
quakerboy
(13,919 posts)Ya know, its unfortunate. I thought you actually had the kernel of a good and useful post.
The "im sick of x" and the reference to the poll you posted. We could have some common ground there. We are all sick of being called, thought, implied to be what we are not. We are sick of the other side misrepresenting us in an attempt to disqualify the messenger, not the message. Both sides of virtually any discussion here and everywhere in the USA now use the fox newsish tactics, and both sides hate having them used against themselves. It really makes a civil or informative discussion hard to have and real progress really hard to achieve.
But then you start attacking anyone who disagrees with your personal authority in assessing situation, implying that they are simple minded, unable to understand shades of grey, etc. "some liberals". All that authoritarian, its my way ya'll are not just wrong, but foolish crap.
So my simple response to you, is if you are sick of being called x, maybe stop posting things as if you are x.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Oh look! The big scary government is spying on everyone! Quick! Buy a gun to protect yourself!
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)you aren't suggesting folks on DU are fickle :p
*giggle*
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's been a point of pride amongst some of us to know there's a file on us.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)pissed they dont have a file to wear, heh?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's like those feel good awards they give out at school.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)maybe right and the their inner feeling of unworthiness for not earning it is an issue
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Hekate
(90,637 posts)Kick. Rec. Thanks again for putting it so articulately.
Hekate
UTUSN
(70,674 posts)*********QUOTE********
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023475
Strange how [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]the same people[/FONT] running around [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]calling everyone Authoritarians[/FONT]
Are the same people who seem to [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]drown out any dissenting voices contrary to their own very specific worldview[/FONT]. If you don't march in lockstep to their worldview you are mocked, shamed, insulted, and called names. It's getting harder and harder to tell who the real authoritarians are. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]The "anti-authoritarians" seem to exhibit such authoritarian personality traits[/FONT] as mentioned above, while those who are called "authoritarians" by others are the ones who seem to actually exhibit traits of tolerance, open mindedness, rationality, and willingness to listen to factual statements and evidence before jumping to fear-mongered conclusions.
It's amazing how [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]the so called anti authoritarians have no problem worshipping someone[/FONT] to the point of wearing a mask of their hero's face while the so called authoritarians can appreciate having this debate without feeling the need to elevate someone to God-like status.
It's like there is no room for sane rational voices in this debate, it's just battle of the hyperbole's.
Why am I not running around with my hair on fire about this NSA story? One, because its fairly old news, two, besides Bush's warrantless wiretapping, under this administration there are numerous safeguards in place to protect our citizens constitutionally, and three, there is an overwhelming lack of evidence of any nefarious actions taking place. No one is suing the NSA for violations, no stories of innocent people being rounded up into FEMA camps, no unwarranted interrogations of US citizens, and no proof that the Govt is actually even spying on us. Has anyone here had a knock on the door and been interrogated? I certainly haven't. Anyone care to share stories of this occurring?
On the other hand, we can acknowledge how this can be a slippery slope and [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]welcome further reforms and safeguards[/FONT] without believing the Govt is coming to stalk our Facebook pages and read our emails and texts. Personally I welcome the idea of NSA hearings and am interested in hearing both sides argue their positions based on their merits. This is why I also believe Snowden should come back to the US, what better expert witness to take on this issue in a court of law than an actual insider. Yet, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]running off to another country who would love nothing more than to see our country's demise should also be questioned[/FONT] as suspicious. A country whose president is actually the [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ex-KGB head[/FONT], equivalent to making James Clapper or Keith Alexander or Leon Pannetta our president. I mean, damn, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]if you wanna talk about authoritarians, look no further than Putin and the Russian Federation. Better yet[/FONT], look no further than [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]the Republican Party[/FONT].
Like I said above, more oversight is never a bad thing and we all should welcome it, but for the sake of sanity and possibly your own health, lets wait for facts and evidence before thinking the world is in impending doom because our Govt takes counter terrorism possibly a little too seriously. And [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a little more kindness towards each other couldn't hurt either[/FONT].
*************UNQUOTE*************
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)You a tinfoil warning for your post.
It's all a conspiracy against the Dems and Obama.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)but you keep on enjoying yourself.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)"So why the heck are so many of us getting called "Authoritarian NSA Apologists"? Who is the 'us'? I thought this OP was about YOUR feelings, now you claim to be an organized group?
Can you show me these posts in which 'so many' of you are called Authoritarian NSA Apologists'? Or is this just verbiage you type up out of lack of actual points to make?
You say you are so sick of of it, it happens to 'so many' of the unnamed group you claim to speak for-so you should have a boatload of examples available.
'So many of us'! What's with the Royal Plural? Or are you openly speaking for a clique? 'So many of us'?
Us? You mean you, Kitty. And the rat in your pocket? Your conjoined twin? Us? 'Cmon.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
Matariki
(18,775 posts)"because Snowden, Greenwald and Assange have all aligned themselves w/politicians who are intent on destroying the Democratic party"
Back that up. For starters.
kardonb
(777 posts)I could not agree with you more , Kitty ! The new DU mantra seems to to be : believe any kind of unsubstantiated dreck that is thrown around to smear our gvmt. and country . They seem so eager to encourage no oversight and tracking of people that are aligned with terrorists . But if another 9-11 should occur , they would be the first to howl :why didn't " THEY" prevent that . "They " should have kept track of the enemies .
christx30
(6,241 posts)debate about what's going on when everything is secret? Secret courts, secret legal interpretations. Nature abhors a vaccuum, as they say. And if there was nothing to it, they wouldn't be going after Snowden as they are. They wouldn't be detaining Greenwald's assistant for 9 hours at London Heathrow. They wouldn't be threatening Lavabit with contempt of (secret) court for closing down his business rather than spy on users that specifically chose his business to avoid being spied on.
I think mistrust in the government is a good, healthy thing. Keeps us asking questions, which (attempts to, at least) keep the politicians honest. I encourage questioning and mistrust. I encourage demands for answers. Until we find out more about what's actually going on (and I would be slow to trust official word about it. I'd sooner trust a hunted down whistleblower), the demands for answers will keep coming.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)It just has to be that they are realeasing information about spying on americans? Couldnt have anything at all to them being in possession of documents relating to legitimate foreign intelligence gathering?
I get you are all worked up about being "spied on" But Theres a whole lot of actual foreign intelligence gathering wrapped up in those documents. Something I would hope our government does everything in its power to protect.
tblue
(16,350 posts)"We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We’ve got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion, using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies, if we’re going to be successful. That’s the world these folks operate in, and so it’s going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, basically, to achieve our objective." (Emphasis in original.)
See more at: http://afpakwar.com/blog/archives/576#sthash.iccvJuRI.dpuf
If its good enough for Dick....
FSogol
(45,473 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)K & R 
otohara
(24,135 posts)Which is what will happen if another 9/11 isn't averted.
Another 10 year, trillions dollars and thousands dead sounds dreadful to me.
But that's what will happen if gung ho America or any of it's allies are attacked by them sneaky terrorists.
Fuck Julian Assange - He thinks Rand Paul is the answer to all our problems.
Greetings NSA...thank you not arresting me for posting on DU.
Cha
(297,123 posts)WikiLeaks @wikileaks 5h
Obama's mask continues to slip in this affair. Under all the acting, and reading of teleprompters, a vindictive, petty, authoritarian.
https://twitter.com/wikileaks
h/t Cali http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023234734
julian assange is such a nasty vindictive asshole.. and now it's out he wants rand paul for president in 2016.. and right away disclaimers about being a rand paul supporter are popping up.. Don't blame them.. I wouldn't want to be associated with that asshole, either. Not too fucking brilliant.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)are align with the gopers.
tblue
(16,350 posts)"I Don’t Give a Damn if Jesus, MLK and Gandhi are Cloned and Made President, Vice President and Secretary of State, respectively.
If they are overseeing massive, illegal spying programs and Charlie Manson is somehow able to blow the whistle on those programs, I will still be against the spying.
Just wanted to make that clear."
20score
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Using Paulite RW libertarian Teabagger talking points to attack a sitting Democratic President. They self-righteously claim the mantle of Liberalism & paint the enemies they've created - those who warn against trusting unrepentant liars like Snowdon & Greenwald who give only lip service to "civil liberties" - as nothing but totalitarians. Yet their allies are the Drs Paul and the worst kind of Teanaggers.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,731 posts)
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Government spying on it's citizens is unamerican. I did not like it when Bush did it and I like it even less when a Democratic President I voted for does it. If his President is being attacked about this then he needs to get on top of it and correct the problem and it is a huge problem.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The fact that there are self-styled progressive Dems who are all too happy & willing to follow that script and play into their hands is disturbing.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)It is a meme that really needs to be retired IMO.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)It originates from the same Paulite RW libertarian cesspit that can boo active duty soldiers who happen to be gay, and cheer "LET THEM DIE!" at poor people who happen to be sick & unable to pay outrageous medical bills, and that wants to destroy the US govt.
And the fact that people pretending to be liberal Democrats can use the RW's CT memes to attack a sitting Democratic president is something that really really needs to be retired.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts) 
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)"I am getting fucking sick and tired of supposed liberal Democrats using Paulite RW libertarian Teabagger talking points to attack a sitting Democratic President."
If I had a dollar for every time for someone getting called an "authoritarian" on here, I'd be richer than the NY Yankees.
tblue
(16,350 posts)If you broadbrush one group, you have to accept that people broadbrush the other.
Can we stop with the pettiness and childishness, and instead talk about what actually impacts people's lives, like POLICY?
If you support these NSA programs, then say so. If you can defend them on their merits, then do it.
But if you want a unilateral flamewar, you're gonna be disappointed that everyone doesn't fold up their tents and go silent. There's enough ammo to meet fire with fire if you want to keep this up instead of discussing this like adults.
Fwiw, I don't call people these names and make these accusations, but your post is so nasty, I had to interject before you finish congratulating yourself on putting people in their place for having an opinion that displeases you. You still want to call people Paulites?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Ask Valarie Plame if Cheney isn't above breaking the law like Snowden did.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Thanks for the laughs.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)The GOP is burning Rome down and the Demotarians are arguing over who is going to be playing the fiddle!
quinnox
(20,600 posts)acting like one. It's a thought. 
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Yes, there's the "Us. vs Them" where the "Us" group fancies themselves ideologically or morally superior, but to what end here in cyberspace?
quinnox
(20,600 posts)because this sort of thing, well, it comes with the territory, IMHO
tblue
(16,350 posts)called an authoritarian? Especially without changing any behavior.
"Stop calling me that!"
"Okay. Maybe I'll stop calling you that because you demand it. (But I still think you're that.)"
Defectata
(83 posts)this story is real, your focus on orchestration is the real diversion
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)before criticizing Obama for using FISA.
I'm with the iteration of the ACLU that applauded Kennedy for creating FISA.
SaveAmerica
(5,342 posts)responses, so much so that I wondered if I was really at Democratic Underground or somewhere else.
BumRushDaShow
(128,793 posts)
"Discussion" has been replaced by hyperbolic anti-Democratic party "gotcha" posts that devolve into a hate-fest.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)No one is really fooled.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)TomClash
(11,344 posts)Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The apologists were doing far more than "questioning" various aspects of this. Fort several weeks, and for some they are still promoting the nonsense, the NSA apologists were promoting foolish acceptance of the clearly unconstitutional program, they were mocking those who have legitimate concerns, and they spread misinformation, obviously carrying water for fascists. Throw in the racism catcalls and the frankly insulting misinformation your crew were spreading, and you guys personified the term NSA Apologist.
Have the decency to feel a little shame.
I'm glad you folks are moderating your passive acceptance of the NSA spying in the face of thoughtful folks providing overwhelming condemnation and successful rhetoric, but you can stop pretending that we somehow agreed at the beginning and it was all some silly misunderstanding.
You might be sick and tired, but I promise you that the rest of us have been sick and tired of the Authoritarian NSA Apologist's for much longer.
Welcome back to reality.
TomClash
(11,344 posts)You don't want to be called an authoritarian NSA apologist. You want facts.
But then you weave together a narrative claiming, with very little evidence, that the NSA story has been orchestrated, that there are shades of gray, not everything is what it seems. What is that based on?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)
1awake
(1,494 posts)But I must ask if the same level of "wait and see" or even trust would be given if Obama had a R after his name instead of a D. For some on that side, maybe the answer is yes. But I have a great deal of difficulty believing for a second most of those on your side of the "argument" could answer that honestly.
Beyond that, Snowden is just a man as is Greenwald, and while I very much thank Snowden for what he did, he's no longer an issue for me. He IS being used as a distraction by many. To be clear, I can't speak for anyone else on this board, but there is no issue more important than the Government surveillance/spying. Until this is addressed appropriately (and no I admit I don't know what that looks like right now), I will not let up on the President nor any other politician.
Lastly... if the Politicians in the Democratic Party were acting like Democrats, none of this would be an issue right now.
1awake
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Wyden was the first to question the NSA program.
He is a Democrat from a liberal state.
Most of us on DU do not see this as a partisan issue. Republicans will mostly defend the entire surveillance scheme. They created the Homeland Security Agency and the surveillance scheme.
A few of the so-called Democrats like Dianne Feinstein are extremists when it comes to surveillance and the knee-jerk fear state.
Most sane people understand the importance of having the capacity to monitor the communications among criminals.
Problem is this program sucks up too much information, costs too much and is moving us more quickly than many want to acknowledge in the direction of a repressive state rather than a democracy.
We have the First Amendment, and it states that our freedom of speech and of the press cannot be "abridged." To abridge something is to lessen it in any way. The freedoms of religion, speech, press, association and to petition our government are the most absolute freedoms we have.
Fundamental to our democracy and our Constitution is the concept of three co-equal but very different branches of government.
This surveillance program places our First Amendment freedoms and the co-equalness of the authority of the legislative and judicial branches of our government in jeopardy.
This surveillance program, because it enables even if unintentionally, the collection and review of metadata and even communication content anywhere (within the US of any people including members of Congress, teachers, journalists, scientists, lawyers, investigators, etc.communicating to and from foreign locations or outside the US) places the executive branch in a far superior position to the other branches of government. That is dangerous.
I do not believe that people who defend the NSA program as it now stands are authoritarian. I think there are various reasons for their taking that stance.
1) Some of them have not experienced much personal repression in their lives, haven't traveled much and may be relatively new to repression. I, in contrast, traveled a lot prior to 1989 in various parts of Europe and had friends and family in countries that experienced a lot of repression from both the left and the right, the NAZIs and the Communists. That gives me a different perspective.
2) Some are defenders of Obama. While I think that Obama could and should do a lot more to get this program under control and while I do not like his DLC connections, staff and policies, I like Obama. This program is not about Obama. We have to ask whether nice guy Obama is being used to foist upon the country a very ugly, not nice program. What will follow Obama may depend on whether we get rid of or drastically reign in this program because it could be used as part of an effort to pick our legislators and presidents for us. Remember, votes are sometimes counted and usually reported via the same internet that is under surveillance.
3) Some are here to disrupt. Not you. But some of those who support this program are just here for the joyride to watch the Democrats fight amongst themselves.
4) Some Democrats really are authoritarian. Not many of them join in the discussions on DU. But think about Dianne Feinstein and some of the others. With regard to human rights, they are on the right of the right wing of the party.
So Duers should not take this discussion personally. It isn't about anyone as a person. Thanks for discussing this with me. The more we keep this topic alive, the better for our country.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)The information about the NSA that has been leaked is of extreme importance in and of itself. The motives behind who is leaking this is also extremely important. Keeping the two issues distinct seems to be prudent. We don't all have to focus on the same thing. If you are motivated to look into the reasons behind the leak, awesome! If the information that was leaked is paramount to you, equally awesome! People like me who don't have the time or mindfulness to dig deeply depend on those who do to provide us the big picture. Your reputation in the community will give weight to your arguments. That's kind of what a community is about - we can't all be experts at everything so we have appointed representatives to focus on specifics (i.e., plumber, carpenter, electrician, traffic engineer, Mandarin translator at the UN, foreign affairs advisor to Zimbabwe, etc., etc., etc.).
You don't have to wholeheartedly embrace Snowden, Greenwald, or Asange to appreciate what they have brought to light. And just because they released information that has exposed wrong-doing doesn't mean their motives are pure or their ideology is worth a damn. Heck, it's even likely that others not related to these three are attempting to piggyback on this issue to use it against Obama and the Democrats...imagine that! Republican modus operandi.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)But I have accused people of putting party or President before country.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)Really?
Then you should practice what you preach. Personally, I think "authoritarian" is a milder name than "ratfucker", as namecalling goes:
Ratfuckers attack the left from the left & do it for nothing. So to heck w/your insinuations.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3370015
And ratfuckers love Greenwald and Hamsher. SO EASY to attack the Left from the Left...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3368861
Paid shills. LOL! Ratfuckers (Republicans) parading as Lefties do it for free.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3368857
SO Vinny, what about the ratfuckers attacking the Left from the Left? The Libertarian/Greens who
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3368849
All of those posts are yours, KittyWampus, and they all carry the insulting term right there in the title. And before you try to point out that others were engaging in namecalling too, well yes I see that. However, it's hard to claim the high road, unless you actually take the high road.
Got any maps for us today?
Puglover
(16,380 posts) azurnoir
(45,850 posts)bingo and +1 and all
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)If all but one DUer apparently voted in a poll against the NSA then why are DUers continually called out as NSA apologists?
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)claiming that they are not
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Paulite libertarians claiming that they are not.
frylock
(34,825 posts)who are these "Paulite libertarians?"
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 19, 2013, 06:06 PM - Edit history (1)
on this forum.
When did support for a massive surveillance state and opposition to basic civil liberties become a liberal or progressive position?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)and you know you are lying. Name one "pro- authoritarian" who posts on this board.
See how that works? I'm sick of this dishonest, bullshit tactic.
While you're at it, name one " massive surveillance state supporter" who "opposes basic civil liberties"
Utter garbage.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)the massively expanding surveillance state is a progressive not a right-wing positions and always has been. Rallying to the defense of the surveillance state is right-wing and reactionary and always has been. When people defend the NSA surveillance program - something no one here would have ever done when Bush was President - they are anti-civil liberties and pro-authoritarian - I never dreamed it would be necessary to defend liberal western democracy on a liberal Democratic forum.
When on earth did solidarity with the ever expanding clandestine services become a liberal and progressive cause?
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)"we" all know who "you" are, and most of that stuff started with an "I" upon which disagreement was found, was reacted to in the customary way (based on my conversation with those here a long time) by "your" crowd with the same kinda stuff that's apparently always spewed when dissent/criticism of the messiah hits this board -- name-calling with an intent of censorship.
If you don't want bloodied up, perhaps maybe you and your own shouldn't work so hard to be the first one/s drawing it.
Much like the chained cpi debate I witnessed and participated in, and that followed much that same formula, it similarly appears as if the goal posts are constantly being moved, but will no doubt have the same result that one did -- the pottymouths who allowed their name-calling, etc to overload their ability to back it up, will be eating crow in the end. That's what any and all revisions, etc, in existing law and/or stopping of the illegal/unconstitutional interpretations of existing law will be for you and yours, and all of the strawpeople like SNowden, GG, etc, that you've been hiding behind won't shelter you from.... The only facts that matter or will matter is whether the law/constitution has been knowingly/willingly violated or not, and the "not" chances dwindle daily, and to some of us, had few to zero chance of being the case from the beginning. That is where the goalpost started -- avid, less than civil defense of BHO -- and the why behind all the moving of it with non-germane BS about sources and their motivations. Even if "their" motives and ultimate goals aren't something we can or do agree with hardly means we do or should lack common ground. We just happen to agree that we like the same car rented, even if we have two different destinations in mind.
"I question" (and have for some time now) why it took so long for so many to realize there was/is a problem in need of a remedy, and "know" they are the last people to be listening to now. There's really only one plausible explanation to be found in the projections, and specifically the one about those alleged "godlike" beings Snowden and GG -- an inability from the start to even consider that BHO mighta given NS concerns more weight than privacy.
Hindsight is no replacement for foresight, but it's far better than the self-inflicted blindness I've seen outta many here.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)When that word lightly touched down within one of your more eloquent posts, I knew then that a principled debate was only moments away.
Cheers!
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)YOUR rights to free speech and privacy, even if you are not. It is ok -- liberals are the ones that repeatedly fight for civil rights, all the while being attacked on all sides for being 'extreme'. It's par for the course, and I guess we should expect it.
tblue
(16,350 posts)standing up for liberal principles and what should be nonnegotiable civil liberties. Without us, there'd be nothing but people like this op telling us to shut up and let the govt and the private corporate for-profit contractors continue whatever they are doing unimpeded and in secret.
No thanks. My convictions mean more to me than their threats. And I have to live with myself and my conscience.
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)Naderite, and accuse folks of being TeaPubliKlan operatives in peace, huh?
Yeah, we know that you are just a seeker of the truth and evidence.
That is why you not only give a pass to the folks with the secret programs, laws, and rationale but defend them on reflex and put the burden of proof on those the secrets are being kept from.
The incessant focus on some random conspiracy theory rather than on the actual dragnet surveillance seems very dubious to me.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)It's DU...
As has been pointed out today that we aren't any more likely to be in disagreement as we ever were (Democrats, herding cats, etc.) and that should be okay.
IOW, don't give others more power over you than they ever had. I feel a certain way, and I'll defend the way I feel. History will sort it out, providing we have the ability to know the truth.
If you're liberal, then you'll be able to do this.
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)this non-scandal is starting to fizzle out, anyway. The M$M really isn't hyping it as much as they were. Judging from the polls, most Americans don't seem to give a damn about Snowden. And even on DU, the average amount of recs for the panic posts about Snowden drastically lowered from 300+ to around 100 recs in several months. This was nothing more than yet another attempt by Obama's political enemies to undermine his administration, which ended up just being a distraction from civil rights issues that actually do affect average Americans, such as Stop-and-Frisk and the GOP's efforts to obliterate voting rights.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)from Snowden. That thing reeks of you taking delight in defending the actions of the GCHQ in detaining Miranda. Perhaps if you weren't so... I'm not coming up with the word... but in that OP you sound like you were so happy that you finally found something to use to justify the detention, and then posted it in such a rude and condescending manner/tone.
If you wonder why people call you out for something, the best place to find out why is in what they are calling you out on. That post says a lot.
Here it is for you: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023487282
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)joshcryer
(62,269 posts)So many holier than thou DUers are accusing others of BS positions that they don't support and they've been doing it on a regular and consistent basis. I'd love to see this poll.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)and/or being labelled by those who disagree with your political views, you don't belong here.
Because that's what DU has become - a site where facts are expendable, honest discussion is unwelcome, and honest debate is impossible.
It is all down to name-calling and labeling. There IS nothing else.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Yes, I just gave your posting history the NSA treatment. And I have no patience for crocodiles.
"hair on fire," "ratfucker" "libertarian," "Paulite Troll" "conspiracy theorist" "rightwing" "racist"
oh and "self-professed liberal" too, but I didn't have to look too hard cause that was from this post.
Spare me your sanctimony. And here's your realism. The president threw his lot in with Bushies on this one. I have little patience for self-inflicted wounds.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Would Snowden and Greenwald look any different to you? I'm curious.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)how can I discredit this because it might hurt Obama, it will invite harsh criticism.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Pejoratives tend to illustrate the lack of character by the person uttering it rather than any counter-point they may have in regards to your position.
Of course, the corollary is certainly true also; calling a person a supporter of treason aptly illustrates that same lack of character.
For my part, when I see someone "argue" using name calling rather than points and counter-points, when I see someone imply that (e.g., "if the shoe fits..."
, when I see a post which posits "you either agree with me or you're an X", they all go into the "Bless your little heart, you're quite simple, and kind of an idiot" file.
The trends and habits of Hate-Radio are picked up by those who aren't even aware of it, and rely on bluster and name-calling to validate their own positions.
Caveat: I don't hold a hard or fast position on the NSA thing as I don't pretend to know enough about it as do so many others. But yeah... name calling under any circumstances reflects more on the person using the name-calling much more than anything else. Although I imagine many will rationalize the contrary.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)what you are.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)You'll have to forgive me for laughing at your owie.
Californeeway
(97 posts)the PTB want this issue out right now because it weakens Obama and strengthens Rs and counter-intuitively makes it more likely they will be able to keep their surveillance capacity with little or no restriction and can keep the War or Terror in place.
It is a misdirection. Everyone is imagining some evil gov. employee snooping on their private conversations and assuming the fate of our Democracy depends on stopping that. No one seems to realize the bigger problem is that private companies are spying on us, and have been for over a decade and it's perfectly legal, perfectly constitution and thousand times more dangerous than government spying because there is no accountability at all. And we have all signed away our right to protest by signing off on terms of agreement statements. Oops.
If you want privacy, the government is the least of your problems.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)which is cause by blind allegiance to their ideology...just in the reverse. Both are wrong since essentially nothing in this world is simply black or white.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,232 posts)Ron & Rand Paul campaign teams like "stoking" up shit here at DU, as noted below.
"Take a look on Democratic Underground
They have the gov't paid trolls out, trying to limit the outrage & rebellion on there.
If that is the reaction of hard core Dems to the news stories on the NSA, I want to stoke up some more of it.
Lots of traffic on DU.
It's the most popular Dem internet site, except for Huffy Po - where everything meaningful gets censored."
http://www.dailypaul.com/288556/clapper-and-feinstein-get-caught-lying-big-time#comment-3103138