Detroit brought down by it's liberal policies

[groundloop]

I thought I'd share an email I just received from my Georgia state rep. Since I'm not super knowledgeable about the goings on that led to Detroit's insolvency (but I am quite certain that it wasn't caused by treating municipal employees fairly) maybe some of you who know more about it can share your thoughts, and maybe also enlighten my state rep. (Bill Heath 404-656-3943 [e-mail]).

Lessons from Detroit's Financial Crisis

During the early to mid-twentieth century, the City of Detroit represented American
industrialization and ingenuity at its finest. After a series of world wars and
a debilitating national depression, the resurgence of the American automotive industry
in Detroit helped revitalize a struggling national economy. In only a few short
years, this small Midwestern city became known as "the Motor City" - nearly doubling
in population and providing thousands of jobs for American workers.

However, Detroit's modern landscape looks vastly different today. Factories that
were once bustling with American workers are now empty facades of their former
glory. Over half of the buildings within Detroit's city limits are vacant, city
services are diminishing by the day and retirement pensions have all but run dry.

The City of Detroit has been governed by liberal policies for over 50 years. Unwilling
to curtail the city's insurmountable debt and benefit liabilities including health
care and retirement pensions, the City of Detroit recently filed for Chapter 9
Bankruptcy
- making it the largest municipal insolvency in our nation's history. It's apparent
that the misguided spending policies and unregulated bureaucratic control of the
city may take years to repair, if repairable at all.

Although Detroit was not the first city to file for bankruptcy, these events certainly
point to something much deeper. These wounds were self-inflicted through irresponsible
action and poor financial management. We must learn our lesson now on all levels-
within our homes, within the state, and within the federal government. Spending
money we don't have and avoiding bills we can't pay will bankrupt, demoralize and
destroy this country.

While it's hard to imagine a modern-day city without functioning traffic lights
and responsive police departments, this is gradually becoming a reality in cities
across America - not simply in Detroit. This should be a sober wake-up call to all
Americans as we consider whether our wants exceed our ability to pay. There are
no free lunches. Someone must pay the bills and if we're not careful, we could easily
find ourselves on the same road to economic ruin.

Appropriate or not, Detroit made commitments to employees who trusted their employer.
Today, many of these employees who are now unable to work due to their age are finding
themselves without the pensions and health benefits they expected. They have killed
the goose from which they expected golden eggs.

There is a lesson here for those who continue to out spend their ability to pay.
It is easy to get carried away enjoying the fruits of another's labor. The goose
can lay only a finite number of "golden eggs." Whether in our homes, local, state
or federal governments, we must control spending. There is nothing wrong with enjoying
a good season, just be willing to give up those luxuries when the good season ends.
Don't become addicted to luxury. Use debt wisely and sparingly. And finally, be
sure that you put something away for the rainy days that are sure to come.

Today, Georgians on an individual level face a debt of approximately $53,000 attributed
to our federal government and approximately $952 attributed to our state government.
Georgia and its local governments are not permitted to use debt for maintenance
and operations. Debt is permissible for capital improvements such as schools and
other infrastructure. The federal government should exercise the same financial
responsibility.

At every level of government, we must exercise financial responsibility. America
is too valuable to be allowed to fail due to unmanaged debt. We have postponed
making the tough decisions regarding spending for far too long. If we don't want
our future to be like Detroit, we must reduce spending and obligations before they
strangle us.

[hack89]

1. Their failure was to fail to adjust to losing 60% of their population

and most of their tax base.

Corruption and political favoritism played a role but the real issue is their unwillingness to face fiscal reality and instead borrowing tons of money, underfunding pensions and buying into harebrained investments strategies.

[rurallib]

3. also big cutbacks in funding from the Feds (Reagan)

unfunded mandates (mostly Republican). Not sure about Detroit, but many states have also cut back on any moneys going to cities and counties. Thus cities were expected to provide same services with no less money.

[FarCenter]

15. Why did Detroit lose 60% of their population?

They don't appear to have gone more than 10 miles or so.

[hack89]

16. Considering it took 50 years, there are a multitude of reasons

I suspect that it started with white flight to the suburbs in the 60's and started a death spiral as the city got poorer and poorer. Toss in the loss of their manufacturing base and those high paying jobs and you get the mess we have right now.

[Blue_Tires]

2. Fuck Heath and his backwoods dirtwater district...

Everyone who has never set foot in Detroit is an expert on prudent city management all of a sudden...

[groundloop]

4. I'm part of that backwoods dirtwater district....

Please don't make such a broad statement about all who live here just because we have a right wing teabagger for a rep.

[Blue_Tires]

5. Apologies...No disrespect intended...

I've lived in GA, my mom's family is from AL, and I know Heath's type...

[Bay Boy]

10. That was a rather interesting apology...

...just saying.

[Blue_Tires]

11. Well, so many people see the Mets logo and assume I'm a New Yorker

[Bay Boy]

25. The apology was along the lines of:

"I'm sorry you're from a backwoods dirtwater district..."

Along those lines: I'm sorry to hear you're a fan of the Mets.
You'll be especially sorry after my Tigers whip your Mets butts next weekend.

[Dreamer Tatum]

30. Actually, disrespect is exactly, precisely what you intended.

Be an adult and own it.

[AverageJoe90]

49. I live in Texas, and while it's an area with not as many 'Baggers as others.....

We probably do still have a few. Though I'd like to say that College Station is a small town and it seems to be pretty liberal as far as I can see.....

[blm]

6. GHWBush, Prescott Bush, and Jackson Stephens made deals with Chinese industrialists in the 70s

to move the US manufacturing base to China. Detroit was a one of the US' top manufacturing cities.

Unpatriotic power brokers and billionaire fascists threw over cities like Detroit and the American worker all across the country as they began their steady march towards NWO's global fascist agenda.

[FarCenter]

14. China had nothing to do with it; Detroit could not compete with Japanese and German cars.

[FrodosPet]

17. Not to mention suburbanization

The suburbs are even facing challenges, but outside of Pontiac (which is suffering much the same fate as Detroit), the 'burbs are still relatively prosperous.

[Octafish]

7. The lottery and casinos will bring in money!

Yeah. That's the ticket. Gambling will replace what was lost to the billions gifted by Lansing and Washington to billionaires and millionaires. Yeah. Never heard of Headlee.

[Bunnahabhain]

8. As I've said before on this topic

there are no white hats and no black hats here. I understand many folks here are highly invested in the concept this is all the work of the Repubs, others elsewhere are equally invested in the concept this is all the work of liberals. The real answer, not surprisingly, is far more complex and both sides of the aisle are dirty.

That said, if I had to point me finger at one person to name as an isolated catalyst for this disaster, it would be Coleman Young.

[denverbill]

12. So Coleman Young is responsible for the decimation of the auto industry in Detroit?

Funny, because back when America was at it's zenith, in the 50's and 60's, we had quotas on foreign manufacturing to protect our workers and industries from cheap foreign competition.

Thanks to free traders like Ronnie, GWHB, Clinton, GWB, and Obama, we have effectively eliminated virtually all tariffs, and about 1/2 of the American auto industry. Detroit's population peaked around 2 million in the 50's, and is down to under 800,000 now. Property values collapsed as a result, so property tax revenues plummeted as well. Now debts incurred when the population was at or near it's peak are being repayed with less than half the expected tax revenue.

Can you point to something specific Coleman Young did that could have saved Detroit from this scenario?

[Bunnahabhain]

23. Your reply is typical

I specifically said causation was complex and multifactorial, did I not? Yet you want to point to one thing, free trade, and say this is the problem. The ending of Detroit's dominance in car manufacturing was certainly a cause but it could have been handled. Also, you need to get some facts straight. Detroit started losing manufacturing jobs in the 50s. To where? The suburbs and to technology. There is no reason to think continued job migration out of Detroit would not have happened, and not just to area suburbs, but out of state too.

In addition the freeways were built in a very poorly planned fashion and helped dismantle/destroy neighborhoods. Thriving neighborhoods are needed for a city to prosper and I swear the urban planning of the 60s was done in a fashion to destroy this on purpose. Just the Ford Freeway alone destroyed thousands of buildings including churches, night life spots, businesses and homes.

Your question concerning what could Young have done to stop free trade is rather a useless one. We both know, well at least I hope you realize, a city mayor cannot change national policy. However, free trade came way after Young's tenure began and the writing was already on the wall. The realignment of the world auto industry was apparent in the early 70s, prior to the people you want to blame (again, no black hats here). Made in the US or "UAW" not just lost cachet it became a symbol of bloated corporate AND union culture. You might not believe me but go check some facts concerning the history of the world auto industry. You'll see US makers losing industry share as early as 1970.

So now that I've dispelled the dross what could Coleman have done? He could not have driven whites in general and the black middle class out of the city. He could have looked to the 'burbs as partners instead of enemies. Instead of pandering to the public workers of the city he could have given strong oversight. Instead of going to Jimmy Carter to bring home some pork he could have been a proponent of changing the nature of Detroit's economy. Could Detroit have been saved? I really do not know. Did 20 years of Coleman help press the accelerator and steer towards the cliff? You're kidding yourself if you do not think the answer to that is "yes."

[denverbill]

24. Your reply is typical.

You could have simply answered 'No' if you didn't have anything specific you could point to the Young did to cause this.

"He drove whites and middle class blacks out of the city". How?
"He looked at the burbs as enemies". How?
"He pandered to the public workers". How?
"He could have changed the nature of Detroit's economy". How?

There are multitudes of right-wing sites dedicated to hating Young, and almost the only complaints against him I see anywhere are that he was a communist and a racist. 99% of those posts and sites are likely posted by people who are racist and wouldn't know a commie if one kicked him in the nuts. These are the same people who called Obama a racist commie today.

You say there are no white hats or black hats, then proceed to say "That said, if I had to point me finger at one person to name as an isolated catalyst for this disaster, it would be Coleman Young. " Then you proceed in your replies to talk about how Detroit was losing auto share and building bad freeways 10-20 years before Coleman was elected.

I'll agree that there is no one reason for Detroit's current plight, it now being 20 years after Coleman was in office. However, if I had to point my finger as the single one person responsible, it would be George Romney, as he was Governor of Michigan when the freeways were built and CEO of American Motors (since deceased) before that.

[Bunnahabhain]

28. This is good work

Why do you talk about "right wing sites dedicated to hating Young" and posit the people that post there "racists?" What does that have to do with our conversation? Oh yeah...to subtly imply I'm a right wing racist. Gotcha. I guess I deserve it. I mean, I dared say Detroit's demise is not 100% Republican driven and to criticize the mayor that oversaw the decline for 20 years. It all adds up, doesn't it?



Of course, there reason I pointed out when the US actually started to lose market share in the auto industry was to correct your non-factual assertion. Oh yeah, you glossed over that. Hmmm.

As someone that grew up in and around Detroit I remember the Coleman years well. Again, no black hats and white hats, as racial relations in Detroit were a mess, but Coleman did all he could to fan those flames into a 20 year lock on the Manoogian Mansion.

[denverbill]

35. What do you expect?

You claim to be not looking for good guys or bad guys and proceed to dump the entire mess on Coleman Young, a pretty left-wing black Democrat. I ask for specific examples of things he did to cause the problems, and you've got nothing but vague generalities.

I haven't seen any post on this board you have made that was remotely progressive or supportive of progressive ideas.

fact free + dismissive of the thoughts of others + critical of progressives + claims to be balanced + lack of evidence of progressive thinking = (you do the math)

[Bunnahabhain]

36. You are incorrect

And I wonder why you are posting such...inaccuracies.

I did not dump the entire mess on Young. I did identify him as, IMO, a major catalyst. I stand by that.

As for me not posting anything "remotely progressive or supportive of progressive ideas" that is just plain bullshit. Complete bullshit. I have posted at length in support of universal health care, guaranteed minimum income, secularism, expanded public education to include post-secondary, and other progressive issues.

You have a great day and don't let the truth bite you on the arse!

[denverbill]

38. I'm always interested in the truth.

I just can't seem to find any posts you have made suggesting any progressive leaning.

Suggesting SSI recipients need to eat beans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3427805

Arguing against 'Medicare for all'.
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10023391042#post28

Perhaps there is a progressive post out there somewhere, but except for you comments on drinking threads I haven't seen a thread yet where you haven't provoked an argument with someone.

You have a great day too. Enjoy your stay.

[Bunnahabhain]

39. More lies

I did not say the "need to eat beans" but rather when I saw a problem I gave some examples of how to mitigate it. You of course neglected to quote where I stated I hope the change in CPI does not go through. Would not fit with your narrative, of course. I took a lot of shit for offering up some suggestions but I'm fine with that. Used to people wanting to kvetch more than implement.

In a similar vein the post you link to says, "Medicare for all does not = socialized medicine." That's an undeniable truth. Later in the thread I asked if folks are ready for unintended consequences. There will be some. Read some Robert Reich as he has pointed some of them out. That is not "arguing against" that is analyzing impact. Only fools scream for implementation of a grand plan without analyzing it...wait...now I get your problem.

Why are you lying about me? More importantly why are you stalking me?

[denverbill]

70. What's with the victimhood mentality?

You sound like the 90% American Christian majority complaining about 'persecution' by the 10% non-Christian minority.

Unlike most Republicans, when I'm presented with internet 'facts', I don't accept them as 'facts' until they can be verified. Republicans accept Obama's non-citizenship despite the lack of a SINGLE piece of documentary evidence that his mother ever even left the US until after his birth, and despite 2 birth certificates and contemporary newspaper notices. Republicans believe Obama has raised taxes, when in fact, he actually cut their taxes for two years, and then made Bush's temporary tax cuts permanent for everyone making less than 400K. Republicans believe Obama has been on a wild spending spree, when in fact he has had the slowest federal government spending growth in 60 years.

So when you tell me it's a fact that you have posted 'at length in support of universal health care, guaranteed minimum income, secularism, expanded public education to include post-secondary, and other progressive issues' but don't bother even posting a single example, I look for myself. And while admittedly I can't read all 400+ posts, I can easily peruse a sample. And that sample did little to confirm your contention. Could I have missed all the lengthy progressive posts? Yeah, I suppose. If so, it's easy enough to prove me wrong. Just point me in the right direction.

I haven't hung around your house waiting for you. I haven't dug around the internet trying to dig up nasty details about your private life. I haven't send you nasty PMs. I haven't even followed you from thread to thread replying to all of your posts. I just fact-checked your claim to having posted at length supporting progressive issues. Some people don't like being fact-checked and consider it stalking I guess. It's never bothered me.

[Bunnahabhain]

71. You misjudge your worth

I have no desire to prove you wrong as you are of no value to me. I see how you operate. I've met your kind before. You're just like Bush, for me or against me. Now you're cowardly implying I'm lying but not calling me a liar. Again, I've seen your type many times.

I love being fact checked. That's not what you're doing. I have already pointed out how selective you were in your two data points, leaving out something important (me saying I too am against the chained CPI) and mischaracterizing and misquoting me. Again, I've seen your type before.

I've found that the thing about mud wrestling with pigs is that pigs like being in the mud.

[denverbill]

72. And you are a dismissive, rude, name-calling disruptor.

As evidenced by virtually every thread you get involved in.

Calling people cowards and liars on a message boards isn't exactly an act of bravery. It's just ill-mannered.

[Bunnahabhain]

73. Then stop doing those things.

And more lies. I am overly polite while being attacked...just as I have been with you. Now that I grow tired of your stalking, insinuations, misquoting me and lying about what I said, and I get a bit more frank with you I am the disruptor? Please, why don't you go back and read our interchange. Clearly, it is you being aggressive against me and me politely pointing out you are full of it. Heck, another poster has agreed with my content on Detroit. How you can keep this up, without even trying to deny my corrections of your inaccuracies about my posts, is beyond me.

You continue stalking me and I'm just going to ignore it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. The scotch brand's answer is quite correct, actually nt

[Bunnahabhain]

37. Thank you for acknowledging that

I do not know what this denverbill's game is but I will not take his non-facts and insinuations without confronting him with the truth.

[Dreamer Tatum]

33. Even if that's true

gee, that cheap foreign competition turned out a pretty decent product, huh?

When American automakers were insisting that people drive hunks of shit like the Plymouth Fury, Datsun and Honda were starting to sell quality, fuel-efficient cars that people wanted to drive.

[packman]

9. On a smaller scale

I grew up in the mid-Mon Valley in Pennsylvania during the end of WWII and into the 50's and saw the life being sucked out of what was once a prosperous, industrialized area. It was like a light switch being turned off. The once shoulder-to-shoulder crowds shopping on Friday and Saturday nights disappeared and now you could walk down middle of the street past closed shops long deserted. During the course of a few short years the entire area saw mills being shut down, mines closed and families leaving. Today the elderly are hanging on to their homes while tax bases dwindle . Town police departments are nonexistent and the small communities now have to count on state police protection, fire department disbanded or now totally volunteer. The only thriving businesses are funeral homes and bars, with even those dwindling in number.
The mills moved south and the mines shut down, coal and steel could be found and used somewhere else cheaper . Simple economics families were told. A few bitched about the unions driving the work someplace else, but those bitching were ready to take anything to keep a hard to come by job. Most felt it was the government supporting policies to keep the owners fat and happy. No one, even today in the Valley, never understood it was global economics that did them in.
At least the air got cleaner, and the rivers now support fishes.

[thatgemguy]

22. I'm near Wheeling on the Ohio River

The same has happened all along the river valley. From your Mon River community downstream, the life has been sucked out of most of the towns and cities. The total economic destruction probably dwarfs that of one city like Detroit. Still there are a lot of angry, bitter people who don't know who or what to blame for their bleak future. Many embrace the Republican propaganda and Tea Party ideals.

[lpbk2713]

13. Typical short term memory.

Look what BushCo did to the entire country and in domino fashion the rest of the world. They had control of all three branches of government and used it as an excuse to plunder and pillage and line their pockets. And they got away with it too, laughing all the way to the bank.

[Egalitarian Thug]

20. It goes back much further than that, further even than reagan. n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

18. There's a reason that the longest sitting member of the House in history is from Michigan.

There's a reason that we built the dirtiest, most dangerous, and poorly designed cars in the world. There's a reason that RW wackos (like the author of this idiocy that doesn't even live there) and militias thrive there.

I love Michael Moore and I feel very sorry for less than half the people in Michigan, but it was and remains a huge millstone around the neck of America.

[Locrian]

19. liberal policy?

Detroit is just another example of capitalist strip mining mentality. Except when money got 'mobile' (ie went to China, Mexico, etc) it was left to rot.

Sure everyone (workers, management, etc) were all drunk on the boom times. The scam was that it would last and that anyone with a deferred stake (pensions, retirement, tax base, etc) would be safe. As always, it's boom and bust - and when it goes bust the common person gets stuck with the carcass while the fat cats get away with the spoils.

Oldest scam in the books: take the money and run.

[Festivito]

21. Republican claptrap. I've lived here all my life.

Detroit started long before the United States. A slow moving river made a nice respite for boats to land and trade with trappers.

Then came need for iron and other metals just found sitting on the state's ground. Wood was in endless supply (cough! Now it's gone).

So, industry came here. Stoves were the biggest thing. We were the stove capital. Industry brought wealth, good jobs, and good hobbies. Hobbies like horseless carriages.

The easy minerals gone, the forests gone needing 200-300 years to grow back, we had that automobile.

WWII came and we switched to a war machine.

The fifties were cool. FDR's top tax rate was 90%. Unions won control. At least a portion of control. Republican Ike took credit, but to his credit he realized we were heading toward Military-Industrial-Congressional-Complex land. At least he said something. He kept the tax rate. We never had it so good.

Along comes two things. The cold war and rural electrification. I grew up between Detroit Diesel and the Ford Rouge plant. The largest industrial site in the world at that time. Geographically between the two, we never had to learn to crawl under our desks in elementary school. Also, moving out to the suburbs was the thing to do. A car could take you to work. In fact, that plant could move too.

In light of the Communist threat, tax incentive was given to diversify our industrialization. Plants spread across the country, destroying the cities left behind.

We still have those tax incentives, only now it moves stuff out of our country, protecting businesses in case of nuclear war, but it's our tax dollars paying for it.

A third thing happens: School busing. Desegregated schools are a must. It's proper. It's good. I agree. ...

ONE CATCH: Only within a city. So, one can move out to the suburb and bus kids between two all white schools. Hmm. Suddenly, there is this thing called white flight. White folks move to the suburbs. So, again, what is left inside Detroit? A few people who do not leave as quickly.

I should note: the deed to my house, requires that I only sell to caucasians. I am not kidding. It is in the fine print. And, I only live as far as the edge of Detroit. (It is unenforceable now of course.)

Shall I go for a fourth thing. Republicans become anti-union. Which they can do around small union places -- not Detroit. So, what happens? The worst possible thing happens. Republicans run as Democrats. Same ignorant ideology, only willing to compromise a little.

They borrow like crazy. It is what Republicans do. As the wage earners leave Detroit or just meet their maker, what is left behind? A dwindling worker base, i.e. taxpayer base, and an increasing percentage of low wage or no wage people.

The money moved to the burbs.

They have their electricity, roads, water (and schools -- which they fund for themselves). You could see Detroit heading down in the 60's and worsen in the 70's. By the 80's it was clear to anyone. Six million people in the Detroit area. Closer to half a million now in Detroit where it once was two million and growing. Growing in number and in land mass.

If the cold war mentality could be blamed on liberals, or if the racism of fleeing desegregated schools is liberalism, then maybe you could blame Detroit's demise on liberalism and its support of unions.

You can believe that. But, you would have to be just plain .. dumb.

Sorry about your representative.

[madrchsod]

29. recommended....excellent post and my....

to you!

i used to work illinois forge in the 70`s. we made shifters for chevy,trans and suspension parts for chrysler.
we made gas engine parts and tools. 14 drop hammers and a forging press . today there are three forging presses and the 14 drop hammers were sold for scrap.

the steel mill i worked for went from 4000 in the late 60`s to 400 today. we produced wire cloth,nails,and barbed wire. structural I beams from 6 in to 24 in. the chinese kept dropping the price of ingots and nwst&w cannibalize itself into one a rod mill.

we also lost two of the biggest hardware and nuts and bolts companies in america to mexico,korea,and taiwan.

we were not as big as detroit but the result is the same.

[Demo_Chris]

34. Great post. nt

[bluestate10]

42. Aren't non-White young people and savvy White young moving to Detroit to start new ventures?

Less expense means that young people with a vision can plant roots and grow businesses. Also, the guy that started Quicken Loans is a big Detroit booster, funding many startups. Detroit needs good, LOCAL leadership, if it gets that, it will become another Oakland turnaround story. Young people from India, Pakistan, Israel, ect don't have the baggage that Whites that fled to the suburbs had, they will set down roots and transform Detroit. And savvy young Whites will leave suburbs to return to a cityscape to live and work.

[Festivito]

50. The decline did not happen because of liberal policies.

Conservative policies brought it down as I outlined and keep it down. That's about the change.

Everybody can soon have health care.

That one anti-conservative element will change everything. But that alone will not rebuild Detroit. The raw materials are not there any more and the railroads take up what shipping use to do.

Detroit does have a highway infrastructure, Beautiful old buildings cheap cheap cheap, And grandest of all -- water. Lots and lots of water.

It won't regain all of its former glory but it will be wonderful again

[Agony]

69. ***

[napoleon_in_rags]

26. News flash: Giant city full of factories has problems...

...after America outsources all manufacturing to China.

Must be the liberals!

[branford]

41. Foreign competition started well before the prominence of China.

For instance, Japanese and Korean car imports in the 1980's were unquestionably both cheaper and better built than almost anything made in the USA.

American manufacturing dominance started to decline in the late 1950's, and not because of unions or liberalized trade. Simply, after WWII, the USA was one of the only industrialized nations that wasn't a pile of rubble. Europe and Asia rebuilt with modern factories while we, both unions AND management, became lazy and complacent. Technology was also prominent feature of the post-war period. These newer factories were producing more products, at greater efficiency and lower cost, due to increasing automation. As American factories began to further automate, the lost manufacturing jobs were never replaced.

Nevertheless, most manufacturing cities besides Detroit were able to cope, and some adapted and prospered. To blame Detroit's ills on China ignores the city's history from the 1950's through at least the 1990's.

[bluestate10]

43. We are being beaten on green energy because countries like India and China don't

have electric lines running everywhere. Those countries are finding it cheaper to build regional energy generation that often involve wind and solar where those technologies work well. China, India and other countries that are putting in green power generation will also out innovate us of storage technology for the energy, simply because they need to innovate. We are being held back by entrenched fossil fuel companies and their apologists, their efforts will insure that we fall father and farther behind countries that are innovating in the green energy technology space.

[branford]

45. All that may be true, but it has nothing to do with what ails Detroit.

My comment simply stated that Detroit's many, many problems began well before China's rise to prominence, no less India.

Discussions on green energy adoption and competition are certainly worthwhile, but have little to do with Detroit's long-standing economic and social concerns or solutions.

[napoleon_in_rags]

53. Fair enough about Japan's role, but my point remains.

Trade policy is a huge part of the picture as well as lack of nationalist policies in the US. China's current strength comes from a nationalist policies. The need to retool post WWII certainly may have contributed to the downfall, but it doesn't answer the fundamental question of why we didn't consider it in our interest, as a nation, to be a manufacturing leader and do that retooling, and why we let all that business go overseas.

The trend continues now with critical sustainable energy manufacturing, as well. Energy is a lifeblood of civilization, the truest manifestation of wealth and power. Its difficult to imagine a future for America that doesn't look like Detroit if we depend of foreign countries like China for both all our goods and our energy, with very little to offer in trade.

[branford]

55. The USA is the second largest manufacturing nation and an energy exporter.

The USA was the largest manufacturing nation until around 2010, when China gained prominence. Also, the USA has abundant energy, and regardless of the dislike of fossil fuel, America is the leader is natural gas production. Despite our failure to ratify Kyoto, American emissions have dropped precipitously due to our use of natural gas, while keeping our energy costs much lower than in Europe, where green energy policies are being reevaluated.

Nationalist policies are also a double-edged sword. Even during the post-war period, American companies exported a great deal of raw and finished goods and services resulting in a our fast growing economy. Protective policies may help some industries, but they will decimate others. If we employ protective tariffs, so will other countries. The voting public would not tolerate the resulting increases in inflation and costs of living.

Additionally, our largest trading partners are Canada and the European Union. That is precisely why Europe and the USA, under our Democratic president, are negotiating a trade agreement, to further enlarge trade between peaceful democracies and weaken China. The devil will certainly be in the details in any such agreement, and there will no doubt be winners and losers, but increased trade and growth is an overall good for us and the EU.

We exist in a globalized society, the genie is long out of the bottle. Capitalism is the dominant economic reality. Companies are often international, and pledge no allegiance to governments. People and capital move freely beyond national borders. We must therefore learn to effectively compete in order to thrive. The protectionism of the pre-war era is now a historical footnote and will not be repeated regardless of whether a D or R occupies the White House.

[napoleon_in_rags]

57. Woah! Corporate talking point land.

I especially like "we are energy exporter." Last time I heard that, it was about the U.S. exporting more gasoline than it imports. I did a little research, and it turned out we were massively importing crude, refining it, and exporting it as gasoline. So we were dependent on foreign energy for the energy we were exporting. 2 units of debt for one unit of "surplus". A quick Google shows a similar story with natural gas:

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-08-11/america-exporting-our-way-to-energy-independence

Its details the problems with the energy exporter narrative.

Capitalism is the dominant economic reality. Companies are often international, and pledge no allegiance to governments.

Well, you're apparently preaching to the choir with most Americans on that, I'm one voice in the wilderness. but some other countries don't see it that way either, and are using nationalist policies to create massive trade deficits with US, playing a team sport against a country that is busy playing against itself. Many companies may feel that they are part of a new post-nation state reality in the mass transference of wealth out of America these nationalist states, but I fear they are in for a rude awakening if they think that's a two way street.

[branford]

60. My personal opinions on foreign competition and green energy are largely irrelevant.

You appear to believe that I am advocating certain economic theories. I am not.

I am simply stating the economic realities of today. In fact, although you largely disagree with their wisdom, you appear to almost entirely agree with my analysis. I will generously take your implication that I am shilling for the corporations as simply an expression of your exasperation, and not a personal attack. I understand your frustration.

Regardless of one's economic philosophies, globalism is apparently here to stay, pre-war protectionism is likely gone for good regardless of who holds the White House, capital (and often people) owes no national allegiances, and fossil fuels are what drives both modern and developing economies.

I choose not to lament history or rage against the tide. The wisdom of current economic reality is no longer the issue. That battle is long over. I would rather focus on the politically and economically possible to improve the conditions for all Americans.

Given these constraints, what can be done to save Detroit and allow it to prosper, and more broadly, for America to compete in the global economy.

I very much wish I had the answers.

[napoleon_in_rags]

65. I don't mean to imply you're a shill.

But yes, I do have a great deal of frustration with the quality of information. Google searches for basic, quantitative facts about our country will reveal paid stories, which distort facts. This in a country which is supposed to be a democracy, dependent on an informed populous for wise action. So accept my apologies for anything personal, its a lament about just another way America isn't functioning as a team.

But as for the point you're making:

Regardless of one's economic philosophies, globalism is apparently here to stay, pre-war protectionism is likely gone for good regardless of who holds the White House, capital (and often people) owes no national allegiances, and fossil fuels are what drives both modern and developing economies.

So we get this picture of capitalists as these men of the world, who can waltz into Bejing, be greeted with friendliness while they eat at a McDonalds. And I'm sure Bejing is very friendly to US born globalist capitalists. But then I look at these figures on an ever growing trade deficit with China:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

If I'm reading it right, I'm seeing a 315 billion dollar trade deficit with China for 2012. That's a $1000 for every one in the US, going to China last year. Those are some expensive friends. So while we're presented with the idea that we need to "compete" to draw the favors of these capitalist men of the world, it happens to be the goal of these non-Chinese globalist capitalists are completely in line with the goals of the Chinese Communist Party. Watching this play out the same way year after year after year, leads me to question if capital really does know no borders. It appears US capital knows no borders, but Chinese capital very much does. That makes the threats of relocation ring a little hollow: I have a strong feeling that if the companies now facilitating the transfer of wealth out of America were to attempt to relocate to China, with the same business plan, they would be shown the door very quick.

But yes, its all business. The question is, should McDonalds spit into lots of little competing sub brands, or should it remain a large, monolithic brand, a team? The franchise chooses the latter, which is how I think China is playing it too. China inc. as I've heard it called, and its working. Very well.

You are surely correct that globalism has changed the world, but I wouldn't write off economic nationalism just yet, it may be a prevailing business strategy in the 21st century.

[branford]

66. I am certainly not defending China.

China's actions are precisely the reason for the recent focus on treaties such as the enlargement of the Trans-Pacific Partnership and proposed EU/USA trade agreement. It's not your preferred solution by any means, but it does attempt to address some major problems and imbalances. Moreover, China is slowly beginning to develop a middle class who wants higher wages and better conditions. Don't be surprised if China moderates its conduct as it begins to have to compete with even poorer developing economies.

I very much doubt that economic nationalism will return. We are already far too intertwined. Institutions like the WTO are also designed specifically to prevent such a resurgence, particularly because such isolation was a primary cause of many wars and suffering. I would not be surprised, however, if new regional economic blocks, spheres of influence and trade realignments begin to assert themselves, as appears to be the intent of the aforementioned trade agreements and even NAFTA.

[Recursion]

51. OK, but compare it to Pittsburgh

Both Detroit and Pittsburgh were manufacturing powerhouses, and both got hit by the change in American manufacturing over the past half century (though remember, we manufacture far more today than we did at any point in the past; we just use fewer people to do it).

Pittsburgh became a success story of managing that transition. Detroit... didn't. It might be useful to compare their choices.

[noiretextatique]

27. written by someone with a government pension

i wish these people would pass on their pensions, then they wouldn't be total hypocrites

[badtoworse]

32. Detroit was brought down by its management

It was run by morons.

[Recursion]

52. Plenty of cities are run by idiots

The fall of Detroit was a complex event, and does not admit of simple explanations.

[branford]

40. The question is what didn't bring down Detroit.

The city has been facing crisis after tragedy, with a solid mix of corruption, gross mismanagement, neglect and negligence, since the 1950's. There is no one simple set of causes for Detroit's condition, and blaming Republicans, Democrats or anyone else, absolves far to many citizens, organizations and politicians, from unions and city leaders to white flight and federal trade policies. for letting Detroit crumble.

I am far more interested in how we can save Detroit. I've heard so many ideas ranging from the absurd to the impossible here on DU, that I'm about ready to sit shiva for the city. Capitalism and global trade are not going to suddenly end, you cannot legally make businesses and residents move back, and they will not do so without any chance for safety and success, and even if against all reasonable odds that the federal or state government assumed Detroit's debts, what plan has been offered to prevent Detroit from coming back for money in a few years time.

[bluestate10]

46. Make the city an incubator for new technologies and food production, including topflight

restaurants. You are going to bring Whites back to Detroit, but many of their forward thinking children will come back to live and start businesses. Look to cities like Oakland California to see how they transformed from downtrodden cities to hot-spots. Welcome immigrants that have fresh ideals and want to build businesses, they have no roots, so they will prove to be stronger Detroit boosters. Drive to elect competent LOCAL leaders that will form cooperative working relationships with city unions that will meet the reasonable goals of the city and unions. Fortunately for Detroit, many innovative young people have moved to the city due to empty spaces and low rents, help that element by making it safe for them to live and innovate in Detroit.

One other thing I suggest and suggest that all urban cities enact. Put in place a grandfather rule for city employees, including cops and firefighters where anyone getting hired MUST be a city resident who has the qualifications for the job or who can attend an academy to be trained. Allow people that live in the suburbs and are already employed continue to hold their jobs, but when they retire or quit, replace them with a qualified city resident who live in the city and pay local taxes. I am convinced that people who work for a urban city but live, pay local taxes to and spend their money in the suburbs have no connection to the urban city and only take from it.

[branford]

48. I admire your optimism.

You have the "what," but lack the "how."

How will you make the city an incubator for new technologies, food production or anything else. For starters, the city has the crime rate of a failed third-world country, schools with a 70% drop-out rate, its infrastructure is literally crumbling, and over 40% of the streetlights don't work. Even if you had ideas that could reasonably remedy these immediate problems, how would you pay for it. Detroit cannot meet its minimal obligations to provide the most basic city services. Where will this immense new investment capital come from, and why would they choose to invest it in Detroit?

As to the "drive" to elect competent local leaders, I sadly feel it is a pipe dream. Nothing has prevented Detroit from electing smarter and more honest politicians in the past, so why would it be different now. For heaven's sake, the city's last mayor AND most senior city council member (and wife of a US Congressman) are currently rotting in prison.

I happen to like your idea of only hiring locals for municipal jobs. However, most employees are already locals, and given the state of the city, the idea would have little effect in addressing Detroit's more fundamental economic and social concerns. There are also a number of legal hurdles that need to be overcome with a local-only hiring policy.

Detroit needed fresh ideas and better management over 30 years ago. Its is a geographically large city built for over 2 million people, with a population of only 700,000, including mostly poor minorities who could not afford to flee. Add that to the fact that no federal or state bailout is forthcoming, and other better managed cities are competing for limited government funds and private investment, and my optimism about a recovery is sorely lacking.

[n2doc]

44. Georgia Republicans aren't the brightest of bulbs

and as it typical, like to pontificate on matters of which they know nothing. One could say the same for Repubs in most states.

[bluestate10]

47. Detroit is their current whipping child. Oakland used to be until Jerry Brown became Mayor

in that city and turned it around. Detroit has some powerful resources, good LOCAL leadership will take advantage of those resources and grow the city. Once Detroit gets a reputation as a go to place, young innovators who WANT to live there will show up and start innovative businesses.

[Mnpaul]

54. It is not liberal policies that sent their jobs away

It you look at the NAFTA votes, almost all of the no votes were from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. I would say the problem is a lack of liberal policy.

[Doremus]

56. I hate coming to DU and seeing a thread title like this.

Could have been lifted right off a page from any number of rightwing rags (misspelling and all).

Why do it?

[branford]

58. Discussing the Detroit situation and possible solutions is a valuable exercise.

Accusing fellow DU's of being right-wing shills is hardly productive, and most insulting.

I am a proud and loyal Democrat and liberal. However, that does not mean all liberal policies have been successful, all Republicans are evil or stupid, and complicated matters can be easily be condensed to simple partisan accountability.

Detroit's decline started in the late 1950's. The vast multitude of issues facing Detroit were the result of the policies, decisions, incompetence and corruption of liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, unions and management, city leaders and outsiders, local and national legislation, as well as simple back luck. Almost everyone and all philosophies contributed to the tragedy that is Detroit today. Success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan.

Pointing fingers at this late date also does nothing to help the people of Detroit.

Now, apart from demeaning other members DU, do you have any possible solutions to save Detroit and allow it to prosper that are even remotely politically and economically feasible?

[Morning Dew]

59. Pensions aren't a "golden egg"

They were a trade (out in the future) for lower wages today.

As with benefits, they are simply part of a compensation package and should have been properly planned for by the employer.

[branford]

61. The problem is Detroit's leaders did NOT properly plan or offer promises they could reasonably keep.

Their incompetence is no longer the issue. What do we do now?

I truly wish I (or anyone else) had a plan to pay all the promised health and pension benefits and keep the lights on in Detroit.

[Morning Dew]

62. I see what you're saying -

but I was objecting to the attitude of the legislator.

[branford]

63. I apologize if you believe my post was a criticism of you.

I'm just tired and frustrated with all the attempts by many in this thread and others to lay blame and avoid dealing with the difficult issue of how to solve the problems in Detroit.

I don't really care at this point about who screwed-up what. Even if the blame is 100% the fault of Republicans, how does that in any way help the city?

How do we save Detroit without screwing the people of Detroit?

[Morning Dew]

64. I didn't think it was.

Just clarifying.

[eridani]

67. Georgia is one of the parasite red states stealing federal money from Michigan

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckoning/2012/10/25/blue_state_red_face_guess_who_benefits_more_from_your_taxes.html

I’m under no such constraint. The numbers, for decades now, have been quite clear: With some exceptions, what we regard as red states are sent a whole lot more of your hard-earned tax dollars than the traditional blue states. In effect, supposedly indolent, “tax and spend” liberals actually subsidize the individualistic, pure, and hard-working lifestyle of our conservative countrymen.

[B Calm]

68. Predatory Capitalism brought down Detroit