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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhich is the true litmus test issue for progressives vs authoritarian conservatives
Much talk about a schism and us vs themism lately, so we should probably clarify which issue is the #1 for determining who's a good progressive and who's a conservative sellout villain.
7 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited | |
Climate change action vs climate change denialism | |
0 (0%) |
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Pro-Medicaid expansion and protecting Medicare/Social Security vs trying to strangle them | |
3 (43%) |
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Pro labor rights vs Scott Walkerist union busting | |
1 (14%) |
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Dismantle NSA/surveillance apparatus vs keep the NSA/surveillance apparatus around | |
0 (0%) |
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Meaningful gun safety regulation vs die hard pro-gun rights advocacy | |
0 (0%) |
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Need for active government role in economy + society vs keep government small and limited | |
1 (14%) |
|
protecting right to vote vs vote fraud nonsense | |
0 (0%) |
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ending the war on drugs vs continuing drug-related prosecutions | |
0 (0%) |
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ending US military interventions overseas vs status quo (excl Bush/Cheney) of frequent but limited interventions | |
2 (29%) |
|
Meaningful immigration reform with path to citizenship vs anti-immigrant sentiment | |
0 (0%) |
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1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)I refused to vote for that reason.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)terrible poll.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)antiquie
(4,299 posts)are we still Democrats?
So very confusing...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)between the real progressives/patriots and the third way conservadem sellouts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023483163
Seems fair to ask how one tells which tribe they belong to.
:shrugs:
Isn't it sad that we have to choose between protecting Social Security/Medicare or full disclosure of what the NSA is doing?
longship
(40,416 posts)It's why there is so much chair throwing in these forums. There is just too damned much ideological thinking here. Many of us who have been involved in Democratic Party politics have long since learned that there is not one issue with which one can use as a dipstick to measure ones political purity.
I reject this, and all other similar polls.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Litmus tests are for the rightwing though.
I am continually dismayed at the either/or mentality around here. That is conservative thinking.
Ron Paul or whoever, comes out for something we are for and all of a sudden, there are a lot of confused people around here. Do we change our position or not? Anybody got the talking points yet, so we know what to think on this? How can a foe be for something we are for? That confuses people? Well, maybe it's your thinking is muddled to begin with.
What we need to do is let those non-Democrats know that their position(s), the ones that agrees with ours, is a good thing, no matter who it is that says they are for it. Encourage them to vote for our guys because this is important and we agree on this and the Republicans are against it. Is that so hard to comprehend? It would seem so for a lot of people here.
This US/THEM mentality, so prevalent around here, it is one of the reasons we have such a hard time getting anything done. Find commonalities and work with them to get them to understand and vote for our guys, vs the Republicans which are 4 square against it.
longship
(40,416 posts)You've expressed it very well indeed.
This is a partisan Website. But we express our opinions here but one is not allowed to advocate for non-Democrats. But litmus tests are not allowed like on Republican sites. That's what too many people here forget.
If people do not like what the Democratic Party is doing they should stop bitching and start doing something about it. Run for precinct delegate and get others who think like you to do the same. The only way the party is going to change is from within. That's what the Republicans have done -- twice!!! Once with the Christian coalition; once with the tea-hadists. The former took a couple of decades; the latter happened quickly, since Obama was elected. (But it has nothing to do with his race -- Right!)
We have to change two things. First, we have to bring liberals into the party infrastructure. We did it in the sixties; we can do it again. Second, we should realize that united we stand, divided we fall. As we see the GOP melting before our very eyes, the last thing Democrats should do is to go into the next election divided. No one issue is worth that when our opposition is so fucking crazy. And our state congressional elections may very well be the most important ones.
Thank you for your response.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)let's face it, for many DUers the only position that matters is the presidents position, even if it changes.
dawg
(10,624 posts)The Soviet Union was full to the brim with leftist authoritarians. True libertarians (who generally don't have the surname "Paul" are conservative but very anti-authoritarian.
The key issue is whether or not you think you should give our leaders, the people we worked for and elected, the benefit of the doubt. Should we question them at every turn, or should we cut them some slack and consider the fact that they know things that we don't know, so maybe we should defer to their judgement somewhat?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)"Need for active government role in economy + society vs keep government small and limited" for example - there's a whole range of options. Everything from State Controlled Economy to Laissez Faire Libertarianism.
Perhaps it doesn't matter for this type of question - anyway it's obviously voter rights. Everything else flows from that. But I doubt anybody at DU buys into the Right Wing Voter Right Scare. SO maybe it doesn't work as a dividing line, because everybody is on one side of the line.
Bryant
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)There's somebody that buys into just about every right wing position at DU.
There are those who repeat every talking point from Darrel Issa, etc etc
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)point. Show me even one. Because poo flinging is definitive, when unsupported by fact. Just typing up hyperbolic insinuations about unnamed others is fact free poo flinging.
'there are those' you say. Who? Cite them.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)http://www.google.com/search?q=%22skip+intro%22+irs+&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&safe=active
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3118783
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2988658
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022861279#post18
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=251184
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2632801
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023133591#post2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023418909#post5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2868602
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5691379&mesg_id=5691429
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)authoritarian Marxist-Leninist socialism. So, adjusted to the United States situation - I support the New Deal and the Great Society - but I don't support a massive and ever expanding surveillance state.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Pro-social justice
Pro-economic justice
Anti-neo-liberalism
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Everyone believes in their own version of justice . . .
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Social justice: equal rights, collective care of the whole. Two of the policies that would facilitate social justice would be national health care free at point of service, universal, and free, fully public education pre-school through trade or university. There are plenty more.
Economic justice = closing the gaps. Some of the policies which would facilitate this include augmenting and expanding social security, unionizing the labor force, scrapping "free" trade in favor of fair trade based on labor and environmental standards, closing corporate tax loopholes, and many more.
There's not just one "policy" that separates the wheat from the chaff when it comes to social or economic justice.
Much of what passes for chaff, though, falls under the umbrella of neo-liberalism. One of the problems with your poll is that it doesn't recognize that there are other "evils" in addition to authoritarian conservatism. Neo-liberalism is one of them, and it's the evil that has caused the "schism" in the party and on DU. So if you want one defining policy that separates a good liberal/progressive from the bad...neo-liberalism.
Which was in my post, and which you chose not to address.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It means different things to different people. At one point, it meant support for social democracy, but in other circle's it's become synonymous with libertarianism.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If that's the definition you're using, it's absurd to claim that the Democratic party at any level is neoliberal.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)The evidence is pretty clear.
Reagonomics is neoliberalism. The "Reagan Democrats" were neoliberals. The rise of the new "centrists" in the body of the DLC points the way. The "New Democrats" followed.
The Democrats in power are clearly pushing neoliberal policy forward.
You can call it what you want, but that doesn't change what it is. The real question is what benefit you get from denial.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They were working class white voters who didn't like hippies, black people, and gays/lesbians.
'New centrist ' etc aren't any more descriptive.
Today's Democrats are not Reaganites.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)That says it all.
Argue about labels all you like, but regardless of how you spin it, the policies are the same.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They favored cutting food stamps and Medicaid, but not Medicare and Social Security.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Litmus/purity tests do nothing but encourage name calling and poop flinging.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I selected "voter suppression" based on Paul's belief that there isn't any --
Republican-controlled state legislatures across the country have been passing new Voter ID laws and other measures, including a recent North Carolina bill that cuts back on early voting days. And the Supreme Court recently struck down a key part of the Voting Rights Act that gave the Justice Department the authority to approve or halt such changes in areas with a history of voter suppression.
Pauls comments come in contrast to another potential 2016 presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, who said Monday, Anyone that says that racial discrimination is no longer a problem in American elections must not be paying attention.
Democrats and minority groups have long contended that the GOPs efforts on things like Voter ID and early voting are aimed at suppressing the minority vote. They note that minority voters are more likely to not have photo ID and that they use in-person early voting at a higher rate than white voters (white voters are more likely to vote absentee when they vote early).
--more--
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/08/14/rand-paul-no-objective-evidence-african-americans-are-prevented-from-voting/
I believe all the other poll questions could be resolved through the democratic process, which means all eligible voters should have a right to vote without right-wing obstruction.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Did not vote.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)At the moment it is definitely all about the NSA spying, but that doesn't mean other issues are not important as well.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)The 17 months of Trayvon Martin threads illustrate beautifully that DU sorely needs a remedial refresher course
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)extreme free trade
fair trade
close the ports
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)just about every domestic industry in just about every country on the planet wants to eliminate competition from imports as well.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)None of us wants to close the ports.
Whatever have a nice poll.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)One would think that India was the biggest threat to our economy basedon such discussions . . .
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Characterizations of others need to be followed through or they become as shifting as steam from an over ready kettle.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)bad and threatening place that needs to be fenced out as much as possible
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)So it's not up for discussion on this board much.
None of us view the outside world as an inherently bad and threatening place that needs to be fenced out as much as possible.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)keep about those 'tests of loyalty'. I don't agree.
petronius
(26,602 posts)Or should I say: bad poll, but good post...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)The questions are pretty specific, so it's a good litmus test IMO.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023489927
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)With one caveat--the question isn't so much the size of the institution but rather the nature of transactions/relationships that can cause rapid contagion amongst institutions. Lehman was nowhere near too big to fail, and it nearly brought down the economy by itself.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Anyone in the markets does far more to support the far right attacks on the left than any voter ever could. Virtually everything that we as a party are supposed to champion is laid to waste by the efforts of corporate coloborators who flood them with cash in the hopes of a share of the blood money extracted from the least among us.
MyshkinCommaPrince
(611 posts)I guess the poll is making a point, a meta sort of thing, about discussions and attitudes on DU lately. If the point is to protest the idea of litmus tests, I agree. If I've myself missed the point and the poll should be taken seriously, I feel I can't respond to the poll itself.
Given that our system always seems to tend toward two monolithic parties, both parties end up representing a wide range of ideas, goals, and agendas which may not always fit together comfortably. I spoke to an intelligent conservative recently, who felt that their side is the sensible one, because they all share one common goal, whereas our side is a collection of factions with conflicted goals and nothing in common. I think to some extent he may be correct, insofar as the Right has been able to retain its longstanding goal of promoting Capitalism, whereas the Left may have lost some focus with the decline of Marxism. (Note: this poster has only a vague understanding of what he's trying to state.) We're left (as a party) supporting Also-Capitalism, a kinder variation on the same system with regulations and restraints added. Maybe that leaves us a bit less focused and driven on the economic front, where we can't wholly distinguish ourselves from our opposition.
So what unites our side? What is our common goal, ideal, or interest? The conservative to whom I spoke felt that we have nothing, aside from a rejection of the Right. He saw us as the reactionaries, defining ourselves only in contrast with the active, forward-driving goals of the RW. Is that true? Maybe in some areas. I am pro-science, which seems like it should be a non-issue, but the Right bafflingly becomes anti-science and I favor the Democrats because I am against anti-science. Maybe with any set of dualized opposites, you could assert that either side is meaningful only as a reflection of the other. Umm. Maybe it's just a framing issue.
I'm afraid I'm starting to babble. Sorry... lack of sleep. What unites us? What do we have in common? Support of societies run by elected governments rather than corporations and their investors? Support for science and education? A belief that we should make society as kind as possible rather than as mean as possible? A "nurturing parent" rather than a "punishing father" worldview? Something else entirely? Since we self-identify with one big party over the other, we must have some reason to have done so. I wish we would focus on that, whatever it is, and stop fighting with each other.
Editing to note that I am not a Democrat solely because I am pro-science. That was meant to serve as an illustration of my point, but, as noted... I haven't had much sleep the past few days. I may not be fully coherent at the moment. Umm.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)schism thesis.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Schisms also aren't in place for determining who is a good/bad/indifferent progressive. Rather, people end up on either side of that divide and begin making value statements about the other side, and this is because of the schism itself. You have a chicken-egg problem here. Also, for what it's worth, you can't talk people into joining your side of a schism. To the small extent that this ever occurs, it's because the person in question changed their own mind, and not because someone browbeat them into thinking in some different way.
Bottom line: you have no control over this. A schism will or won't develop, and that will or will not happen entirely irrespective of your wishes or mine.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)clarify who's on what side of the schism. Otherwise, it seems like it's just self-congratulatory onanism.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)Liberals and conservatives have different moralities. Liberals tend to favor moralities based around harm, fairness, and to a much lesser extent loyalty. We tend to have little to no belief in authority or purity.
Conservatives on the other hand rank authority and purity much higher than we do.
http://www.alternet.org/story/138303/conservatives_live_in_a_different_moral_universe_--_and_here%27s_why_it_matters?page=0%2C0
A litmus test goes hand in hand with a belief in the morality of purity.
Most of us are going to reject this poll and tell you no one issue makes one a liberal or not. I did not select any option for that very reason. We are more than the sum of our parts. Liberalism is a philosophy that covers many issues and attitudes to how we approach life. It is about being accepting and open-minded.
This inclusiveness is a double edge sword as it both makes us more informed and understanding, but also causes divisiveness and argument. In the end I think we are better for it because it makes us more informed and forward thinking than our conservative counter-parts.
Thus why we are right on just about every issue
Cerridwen
(13,257 posts)and arbitrarily defined "extremes."
cali
(114,904 posts)the premise is silly.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)issue voters. So I'll pass on this poll, it is a push poll and I never participate in push polls seeking to get a desired result.