It doesn't make any sense

[Andy823]

OK how many people here would send out their spouse, or any family member, from one country to another, and then back with stolen government documents and not realize the danger you are putting that person in? I know I sure as hell wouldn't do it, so why would Greenwald even think about doing what he did and not realize what might happen to his spouse?

[leftstreet]

1. So they know he had 'stolen documents?'

That's been established?

If so, why wasn't he arrested?

[msanthrope]

3. Because cops don't arrest everyone they can arrest, at the moment they have cause to.

Sometimes, you let the small fry go to see the bigger fish they attract.

If I was Mr. Miranda I would get rid of every single thing I brought home from that trip. You can't be too careful.

[GeorgeGist]

13. Thanks for playing ...

but that's a load.

[Andy823]

20. So answer the question

Would you send a loved one on an errand like this?

[Andy823]

6. Well

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Greenwald's spouse just might be transporting those documents back and forth in his travels. I mean he leaves the UK, goes to Germany, meets up with another person who has been involved in this whole thing, and then goes back to the UK. Just how stupid do you think the British authorities are anyway?

Would you take a chance with your spouse, family member or loved one? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[leftstreet]

10. But he wasn't flying in the US

If he allegedly had any allegedly stolen documents from the NSA, which is allegedly a US agency, he'd naturally want to avoid flying in and out of the US. Which he did

[Andy823]

19. You missed the question

Would you take a chance and send your spouse or a loved one on a mission like this? Greenwald sent him to Germany to meet another person involved in this issue, and then returned to the UK. The documents would still be stolen and since the US and the UK work together wouldn't you have to at least think about what could happen?

[leftstreet]

26. Maybe he didn't have anything incriminating

Maybe you've answered your own question

[Andy823]

48. The question is

Would you send your spouse or a loved on on such a mission without thinking of what might happen? I mean according to Greenwald and Snowden the Government is out to get them, eliminate them according to many here, so why get your spouse involved?

[deurbano]

60. What makes you think he didn't volunteer? He's a grown man.

I can't just "send" my husband anywhere without his consent. (And vice-versa.)

[HooptieWagon]

61. How do you know documents were stolen?

All we know is he had "documents". For all we know they were bank statements, or book contracts. Since Miranda wasn't arrested, it can be assumed he didn't have stolen documents. And since neither Greenwald or Miranda is wanted for arrest by any country, Miranda shouldn't have been detained at all. It was a simple thuggish bullying act intended to intimidate. And all it did was further shine a light on the surveillence state, abuses of power, and twisting of anti-terrorism laws to go after political opponents.

[Andy823]

70. Not that this will do any good, but

I said they were looking for "STOLEN DOCUMENTS", you know the ones that "other guy", what was his name now, Snowden, stole from his job! They had reason to believe that Miranda might have some of them because of his trip to visit the women that helped Snowden in the first place.

This was all just another ploy for attention from Greenwald, he knew this would happen, and while there was probably nothing to find, it sure helped old Glen get his face on the front page, didn't it? I guess you guys are right all the time, this whole thing wasn't about Snowden, hell it's been about Greenwald the whole time!

[Recursion]

23. He was arrested. Any detention is an arrest (nt)

[leftstreet]

28. Detained and released, no charges

Sounds like he had nothing

[Recursion]

30. Carrying a classified document isn't (generally) illegal

A courier of improperly released classified information isn't necessarily breaking any laws himself. But the police still want the document back.

If I took some docs from the safe at work, handed them to you, and had you give them to Assange, I'm breaking a law but you and Assange aren't.

[leftstreet]

33. Then there was no expectation of detention

By the by...why would the UK police want a document 'back' that was allegedly stolen from the NSA? And why didn't the Berlin police want it?

[Recursion]

38. Sure there is

There's plenty of things that don't break any law that you would expect police to detain you for.

why would the UK police want a document 'back' that was allegedly stolen from the NSA? And why didn't the Berlin police want it?

Well, all the documents I've seen have a UK distribution endorsement, and none have a DE.

Though for that matter, "back" is a problematic concept for an electronic document. So is "theft"

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. Well you just answered a question I've had about Greenwald breaking the law but never asked...

Snowden "took some docs from the safe at work", as you say, and handed them to Greenwald. You're saying Greenwald hasn't broken any laws, am I reading you correctly?

Many here are certain that Greenwald is going to be indicted along with Snowden. It seems to me you're saying they're wrong; that he's merely a courier of improperly released classified information, which in your words, isn't necessarily breaking any laws.

[Recursion]

64. If it's as simple as your description, yes

You're saying Greenwald hasn't broken any laws, am I reading you correctly?

If Snowden literally showed up one day and handed them to him, yes. Same reason the USG hasn't gone after Assange. In general, a document's classification doesn't impose any particular legal requirements on John Q. Citizen should he run across it.

[RC]

44. No it is not.

A traffic stop is an example of a detention.

[Recursion]

53. And if you are not free to go, you are arrested

So, if he's keeping you there, even for a minute, that is an arrest.

[RC]

78. No, you are being detained. There is a legal difference.

If they haul you away, in the back of a squad car, in handcuffs, you are being arrested. They have to tell you that you are under arrest and for what. If they stop you, the let you go, they detained you.
So you are applying for a job. One of the questions is "Have you ever been arrested." You answer "Yes"? Even though it was just a traffic stop? Good luck getting that job.

[Andy823]

29. Would you send your spouse or loved one to do this?

It's not that hard to figure that Greenwalds spouse would have been watched, is it? Do you think they didn't follow him to the meeting in Germany?

[leftstreet]

31. Do what? Travel?

[Andy823]

36. Cute

But you know what I am talking about.

[leftstreet]

39. He. didn't. travel. to. the. US.

Your HUGE concern over the depth of Greenwald's affection for Miranda is noted

He didn't travel to the US - the only country where they might reasonably expect to encounter a problem

[Andy823]

43. Oh come on

It's absurd to think that the UK, who work closely with the US, would NEVER think of stoping someone they thought might be carrying stolen documents. You can play all the games you want, but the idea that nobody would think this could have happened is asinine!

[leftstreet]

47. You win. Greenwald never loved Miranda!!!111111

[Andy823]

50. Grow up

You know that was not the point.

[leftstreet]

51. Make me

Yes, your point was to paint Greenwald as a horrific person who willfully endangered the safety of his spouse

[one_voice]

2. I would not let my spouse...

or anyone I loved/cared about near this shit with a ten foot poll. Stolen docs or otherwise.

No way would I take the chance anything would/could happen to them.

I don't put the ones I love in harms way.

[Andy823]

14. Exactly!

This whole thing makes no sense. Greenwald is making a big deal out of this, and yet he was the one who admitted documents were being transferred, so he knew what to expect. Greenwald couldn't be so stupid not to realize what might happen.

[one_voice]

21. Exactly...

Greenwald couldn't be so stupid not to realize what might happen.

[bhikkhu]

4. DailyKos has an article that fills in the background

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/19/1232181/-Greenwald-spins-and-lies-again-Partner-was-actually-detained-for-carrying-stolen-classified-docs?detail=hide#

It sounds like they just wanted the stolen documents. They could have done it without the famous "9 hour detention", of course, but whether they wind up charging Miranda or anyone is a different matter.

[GeorgeGist]

9. Here's a fact ...

Diaries on DailyKos are not journalism.

[bhikkhu]

45. No argument there

journalism is really hard to come by.

It seemed to be well organized and to have more substantive information in it than most, however, even if only cut-and-paste quotations and opinions.

[baldguy]

80. Neither are Greenwald's essays.

[rrneck]

5. Exposure. Attention. Etc. nt

[hrmjustin]

7. I am sorry I am not as on top of this story as others, but has it been established he had something

on him that he was not supposed to have?

[GeorgeGist]

11. He wasn't arrested.

[hrmjustin]

16. Did they take anything from him like the OP seems to say?

[Andy823]

22. Yes they did

All of his electronic devices he was carrying. Anything that might contain the documents.

[hrmjustin]

25. Are they saying he had something he was not supposed to have?

[Andy823]

32. They haven't said yet

The question I asked was would you send a spouse or love on on such a trip? There is no way that Greenwald could have not known his spouse was being watched. The guy goes to Germany to see another person who was involved with this whole Snowden thing, then he comes back to the UK. What would you think was going on?

[hrmjustin]

41. Well yes I am sure he had an idea something like this could have happened, but his lover

might have accepted that risk and was willing to go anyway. It is logical to conclude his lover has similar views as GG and was willing to make the trip and take any risks at that.

[Andy823]

52. Well then

Why all the outrage? If Greewald knew this might happen, and the odds pretty much are in favor of it would happen, then why make such a big issue out of it?

[hrmjustin]

55. Well the question becomes why did Her Majesty's Government detain him under a terrorist statue when

he was clearly no terrorist. If they had cause to stop him then they should have been honest about it. I do not know what will become of this and they may very well have had cause to stop him but the statue they used did not seem to fit the case.

There is also the question of whether this was an attempt to intimidate. Again I do not have answers to this but there are questions that should be asked.

[Andy823]

75. Another question would be

Could it have been all another ploy by Greenwald for attention? If he and his spouse both knew this might happen why all the outrage and threats to release things about the UK because this happened?

[hrmjustin]

76. It is possible they may have had an idea this may have happened and wanted it to, but

The government still has to explain why they used this law. The government needs to explain itself.

But yes it is possible they knew something like this could happen and wanted it to.

[notadmblnd]

8. Maybe he didn't? Maybe he was the decoy?

Just thinking out loud.

[boston bean]

12. It doesn't matter. He should have never been detained.

Wrong question being asked.

[Andy823]

17. Bull

Would you send your spouse of a loved on on such a trip knowing full well that the odds of them being stopped and detained were very high?

[Demo_Chris]

15. How do you he wasn't setting them up? nt

[Boom Sound 416]

18. Ho else could he trust?

[Andy823]

24. Would you do it?

Would you send your spouse or a loved on on such a mission?

[Boom Sound 416]

35. Gay rights aside - yes if she said yes

I say gay rights aside because I don't know the their status and I don't know the applicable laws but here spouses can refuse to testify against one another. I know this was an interrogation so again I don't know what laws actually apply.

That said, I would not force or try to force my wife to "mule" something, but we are partners and probably she would go along with it.

That said, we have children so I wouldn't even ask out of fear our children would lose us both.

[Incitatus]

27. I thought that was a little strange also.

Wouldn't it have been easier to send the encrypted drives by mail, with names and addresses of people not being watched by the authorities. It can't be that hard to set something like that up.

[Andy823]

34. True

If if remember right Snowden as talking about setting up such a way to transfer things online with Greenwald, so like you said, why send your spouse to transfer things in person?

[ProSense]

37. More things that don't make sense:

Why is Greenwald holding onto information about the UK?

Why did it take this episode for The Guardian to report the hard-drive incident?

What's with all the selective reporting?

Would they have continued to withhold the information if this didn't happen?

[Andy823]

46. Good questions

These are all things people should think about and ask themselves, but for so many that just won't happen because it just doesn't fit into their own unique thinking process where Greenwald is some kind of hero who will save the world from whatever!

Thans for bring these question up.

[snappyturtle]

40. Posted this earlier...explains why Miranda was helping (paragraph 2) and

other aspects of the airport detention you may or may not find
interesting:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/19/david-miranda-schedule7-danger-reporters

snip....

On Sunday morning David Miranda, the partner of Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald, was detained as he was passing through Heathrow airport on his way back to Rio de Janeiro, where the couple live. Greenwald is the reporter who has broken most of the stories about state surveillance based on the leaks from the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. Greenwald's work has undoubtedly been troublesome and embarrassing for western governments. But, as the debate in America and Europe has shown, there is considerable public interest in what his stories have revealed about the right balance between security, civil liberties, freedom of speech and privacy. He has raised acutely disturbing questions about the oversight of intelligence; about the use of closed courts; about the cosy and secret relationship between government and vast corporations; and about the extent to which millions of citizens now routinely have their communications intercepted, collected, analysed and stored.

In this work he is regularly helped by David Miranda. Miranda is not a journalist, but he still plays a valuable role in helping his partner do his journalistic work. Greenwald has his plate full reading and analysing the Snowden material, writing, and handling media and social media requests from around the world. He can certainly use this back-up. That work is immensely complicated by the certainty that it would be highly unadvisable for Greenwald (or any other journalist) to regard any electronic means of communication as safe. The Guardian's work on the Snowden story has involved many individuals taking a huge number of flights in order to have face-to-face meetings. Not good for the environment, but increasingly the only way to operate. Soon we will be back to pen and paper.

Miranda was held for nine hours under schedule 7 of the UK's terror laws, which give enormous discretion to stop, search and question people who have no connection with "terror", as ordinarily understood. Suspects have no right to legal representation and may have their property confiscated for up to seven days. Under this measure – uniquely crafted for ports and airport transit areas – there are none of the checks and balances that apply once someone is in Britain proper. There is no need to arrest or charge anyone and there is no protection for journalists or their material. A transit lounge in Heathrow is a dangerous place to be.

snip...

[Andy823]

42. I understand why he was helping

What I don't get as why Greenwald would not figured that this could or would happen.

[snappyturtle]

74. Well I would bet he knew it was risky business. From the article

others have been sent...we've heard of no problems. Maybe they
weren't as high profile as Miranda though. Another contributing
factor may be that Greenwald needed Miranda to go to Berlin and
David was born in Berlin and I sensed from what I read,
familiar with the area. Who knows!?

[cherokeeprogressive]

49. I don't believe he was carrying SHIT. I don't believe Greenwald IS that stupid. Do you?

Add to this situation the fact they could NOT have known what, if ANYTHING was on his electronic gear BEFORE confiscating it.

If I'm wrong, and there were purloined documents on Miranda's electronic gear, my first assumption would be they discussed it beforehand, and Miranda agreed to take the risk for Greenwald.

[Andy823]

54. No I don't think he is that stupid

But if there were no documents, then why all the hassle to send his spouse to Germany to meet the lady that first got involved with this, along with Greenwald? I mean what was the point? Was it all show so Greenwald could play some sill game with the media and threaten the UK?

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. I was at work all day so I'm a little vague on where the info came from that Miranda was "sent"

to Germany by Greenwald to "meet" with the lady and act as some kind of courier.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

56. Could have been recipes for Caipirinhas and North Carolina Shrimp & Grits...

for all we know.

Yeah, I don't buy that Greenwald sent his SO out like a lamb to the slaughter. But character assassination is more fun.

[cherokeeprogressive]

62. If I were Greenwald I'd buy hundreds of thumb drives and put nothing but encrypted copies of

Angry Birds and Words Between Friends on each of them.

Then I'd write a column saying something like "hell, I've been using my friends as couriers THE WHOLE TIME" and send a thumb drive to every one of my friends who'd agree to play along with the scheme and agree to be searched at airports.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

66. Exactly. Hell, pick up the tab...

and I'll courier. Just as long as I have play time somewhere good...

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. And just for giggles...

I'd even put it in a condom and make some TSA agent pull it out of my butt.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

68. Just make sure it's the ol' red, white and blue.

[cherokeeprogressive]

72. LOL! n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

57. Martin Luther King, Jr., was said to choose to march in a town with a sherrif who would always

come out and beat them, for the sympathy generated by the publicity of such horror.

The surveillance state is revealing its police state intentions...

[sabrina 1]

58. Maybe he was luring the Authoritarians into a trap and it worked?

Because this helps those who oppose these draconian laws more than all the talk in the world.

The stupidity of doing this is beyond belief, I mean the UK. They have now shown the world what the opponents of these secret 'terror' laws have been warning about all along.

[Andy823]

73. Nope, more like

GG was boosting his ego once again. This helped him get back in the news unlike that other guy, what was his name again? You know the guy who actually leaked the documents!

[sabrina 1]

81. So, he did lead them into a trap? Either that, because if was 'boosting his ego' (there's that

talking point again) HE had to have orchestrated it no?? Unless he's clairvoyant and is able to predict when a Government is going to do something so stupid he will be waiting in the wings to 'boost his ego' AFTER they make a humongous error of judgement like this which he was able to predict by looking into a crystal ball?

I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind all of this.

I lean more towards the reality of what happened myself, I don't believe in crystal balls or Ouija boards etc.

[Luminous Animal]

65. Probably because his spouse is not a child and is actively supporting Greenwald's work

and is taking the risks on his own volition.

[Andy823]

71. Nah, more like

The whole thing helped Greenwald get back on the front page. After all this has never been about Snowden, nope it's always been about Greenwald, and his ego of course!

[morningfog]

69. Only a terrorist would do such a thing.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

77. Good point. We should round up more of his family. Our liberties depend on it. n/t

[MotherPetrie]

79. I'm sure he and Miranda were aware of the dangers. They went about their business anyway,

stood up to the police state, and once again have exposed the police state underpinnings of the UK government and the U.S. government.