General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Brilliance of Greenwald NOT Releasing Everything At Once
I've seen many a critic complain about Greenwald's piece-meal releases of info. They don't get it.
When you have information, you hold it until your opponent makes a statement which you can contradict with your information.
In this case, how many times has the UK and US government issued assurances that their surveillance states are not widespread and intrusive, only for those statements to be contradicted by a new piece of info? Numerous times, thus exposing the even greater evil that these governments' are willing to persistently lie about it.
That would be impossible if all the info were put out there at once.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)The modern media is like a school of fish. They see a bright, shiny object, and they go after it. The only time they spend any time on an issue is when it is potentially explosive, involves a missing besotted blond bimbo, or is about one of their own (see generally, Tim Russert)
If you feed them a bit at a time, making each bite ever more interesting and salacious, the more likely that the media will keep coming back. Like that guy who would take all his stale bread out to the pier, knock on the pier three times, then throw in the bread. Soon the fish knew to come there after the knock. Which made catching them a hell of a lot easier when the guy was hungry. Those fish are about as smart as today's media, and when you train them like GG is doing, it can work wonders.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)morning, and the day you have nothing left to feed it, it eats you."
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Some pols say there is no bad press, there is only press. I doubt Weiner believes that.
tridim
(45,358 posts)You've been had and now you're being used, just like his partner was.
DanM
(341 posts)bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)...if its getting a big "gotcha!" high five and "winning the internets", sure, its a tactic.
If its laying out the problem so that we can see what kind of regulatory reform is needed, its completely counter-productive.
DanM
(341 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)DanM
(341 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)Who has been had and in what way?
Who has been used and in what way?
How has his partner been used and in what way?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...are the ones who still believe that
Big Brother LOVES us,
and only wants what is GOOD for us,
whether we like it or not.
They are still being "used" today.
TheBlackAdder
(28,193 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
DanM
(341 posts)IF you had said Obama or the NSA is brilliant, This crowd would have loved you...
Nth dimensional chess and all that shit......
DanM
(341 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...where releases are used like blackmail...and to what end? What is the purpose of withholding critical information that could prove that there is this massive spying going on? What's the problem with putting enough out there that can stir not only public action but legislative action as well. If there's to be changes, it's not gonna happen in some personal publicity stunt played out for maximum outrage but minimum action...
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)that if they wanted to stop these illegal activities ,,, all their info would be laying on the bar of some Court!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...and Snowden should turn himself in to the
Proper Authorities.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)he commits a crime to stop something he doesn't like he claims is illegal but he doesn't want to present the evidence of this crime to court who could stop it....... yea, right
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Clue #1) Our Court System is corrupt, and serves to protect The Rich & Powerful.
SEE: Bush v Gore
--Justice JP Stevens, Bush v Gore
Snowden and Greenwald have wisely chosen to present their evidence to the Court of World Opinion for a Fair Trial.....and I agree.
Very Smart.
Clue #2)The "evidence" has a long shelf life.
It doesn't Go Bad because it is distributed piecemeal to the PUBLIC for greater impact,
examination, and distribution.
After all the disclosures about "Secret Laws", Secret Courts, Secret Judges, Tribunals, and Secret detentions,
who can blame them. This is really a case of
They would be STUPID not to do it this way.
There is a reason for the Friday Afternoon Bad News Dump.
Americans have an MTV attention span,
and by Monday, the New Dog will be back dominating the front page.
If you really want something done,
then market it in such a way to keep the focus.
Yes. this is good marketing for a Democratic cause.
Look at it this way,
it is insurance to make sure that nothing and nobody gets "disappeared".
...but I believe you already know all that, and are just playing dumb for other reasons.
You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]
DanM
(341 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...pissing off people who are already pissed off? This is turning into an endless loop of nothing. Trial by media gets hits on websites and sells books but it does little to solve the problem...only aggravates it for personal gains and agendas. Let's get these crimes out public...evidence...then push for legal and legislative action. Isn't that what these disclosure are supposed to generate? Why wait??
DanM
(341 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...which hasn't been presented. Real, hard evidence of the NSA going into someone's personal email or phone calls and using it to prosecute them. Let's see evidence that every call is being recorded and every keystroke is monitored like Mr. Snowden claims...let's see real proof that this is the case, not a powerpoint presentation. In short, it's time to end the speculation and let's get out facts and evidence. Bring it to legislators and lawyers who can put an end to abuses and prosecute those who have abused the laws. Let's see what is "lying" and what is legal under current law...and if those are too evasive, work to change them. Let's get action, not words and posturing...
DanM
(341 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...Congresscriters have the power to refer him to the Justice Department for perjury. Let's get specific proof. Again...let's find someone who had their calls listened into or emails read without a warrant or who were being prosecuted based on such spying. I'm not debating IF there are abuses, I want to know real evidence. Let's get proof Clapper is lying...
DanM
(341 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...without a prosecution, yes, that is the case. Of course if you're for playing games, then speculation and trial by bloggers and media are just fine. They keep the fires stoked and little else happens..
DanM
(341 posts)We have the government's own documents and admissions to compare to the speculation and blogger opinion. In fact, ignore all the speculation and opinion and just look at the documents and admissions, if you want. Just those make the case against the gov't.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...I could care less about the personalities here and see them as a major distraction. If there's real abuses let's get facts out and not the drip drip drip and blackmail game. I have not seen any government documents admitting to abusing FISA laws...and if you could provide that info it'd be appreciated...
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I can NOT believe you posted such embarrassing nonsense on a public board.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...exhaulted one...please enlighten us lower heathens as to how you will eliminate the spying...both public and private. Please, oh, please, come down from on high and explain how you will accomplish this and make the world a better place...
bvar22
(39,909 posts)With a unsupported Ad Hominem Personal Attack?
Were you hoping nobody here would be smart enough to see through your clever dodge?
Didn't work.
You remember your post # 58?
Its right up there^^^ where everybody can still see it.
YOU said:
post # 58 by KharmaTrain
I think we would all like to see a little elaboration on the point you are trying to make.
Please Proceed.
dkf
(37,305 posts)The biggest scandal is in the DOJ. We probably need a new whistleblower to show us that doc. The sad thing is so many know about it but hardly anyone will speak of it. There are no patriots any more. Only 4 in the entire universe of Government workers.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...nothing pissed me off more during the FISA debates when Jay Rockefeller admitted to knowing about the spying and got so upset he wrote a letter and stuck it in his desk. He was "sworn" to secrecy but also was a minority member and had real little power to expose things without paying a heavy price. A price, as you point out, few patriots will do.
If there's all this evidence...it needs to be brought into the open and then pressure applied to legislators to get answers. I'd like to see the establishment of a new Church commission with a Senator Wyden or Sanders at the helm to separate what's currently legal, what abuses have occurred and who was responsible and ways to curtail future intrusions. Playing games with sensitive information is doing nothing but antagonizing people further...not getting any closer to finding out the truth...
dkf
(37,305 posts)Even those who know its unconstitutional. Their oath of office to uphold the constitution has been violated enmasse.
Isn't that the true scandal?
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...has long been my concern. It needs to be investigated and let's find out where our privacy really stands. If the legislative fails, there's still the courts and use of discovery and subpoena power to get the answers our legislators are afraid of...
dotymed
(5,610 posts)"they" are willing to go with their warrantless wiretapping.
When they do it with a warrant, through a FISA court, they at least have to get a rubber stamp to access your "stored information."
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-spying-order-specifically-targeted-americans-not-foreigners/
If you want the original documents that Snowden (a whistleblower) provided. good luck. There are copies of them on Google, (which also granted access to the NSA).
DanM
(341 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)They fear that any and every lie that they tell will blow up in their face. Gone are the days where the "least untruthful answer" will be fine.
DanM
(341 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)cognitive dissonance, he continues to say something long enough he begins to believe it. His integrity has been destroyed by himself, he writings are like reading the rags in the check out line. He has many believing there is mass warrantless wiretapping occurring and the audit shows it typing errors and others who did not follow protocol and in a year only 2700, don't know why he can not tell the truth. Posters show Obama speaking in 2007 about warrantless wiretapping in which the Bush administration thought was allowed by Bush war powers, this was changed before Bush left office and the FISA court was used to issue warrants. Obama took an oath to uphold the Constitution and this is what he is obligated to do.
DanM
(341 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)The US and UK?
DanM
(341 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)he gave them away, not stolen.
DanM
(341 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Everything to normal. Why in the hell would Miranda have Guardian items in his possession? If GG wants truth then he needs to stop the lying. He used Miranda as a mule, set him up to do something he did not want to do, the items was given up by the mule, you want to be angry, start with the one who set Miranda up, be angry at Miranda the one with a failed mission, or anyone who had input and was not as smart as the big boys. Professionals would not have been caught.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)or the public's right to know (you know, that whole purpose for why any of us get into journalism in the first place)?
tridim
(45,358 posts)Typical narcissistic behavior.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)tridim
(45,358 posts)Because there are NO DU'ers who "love mass warrantless government surveillance". Not a single one.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)they don't have any proof of any illegal acts haven taken place. They are just getting their 15 minutes in all the while helping Rand Paul out!
blackspade
(10,056 posts)That has got to be one of the most tired authoritarian memos out there.
And it seems that you have read almost nothing about the NSA programs over the summer.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)that all the players are confessed Rand Paul Supporters ......
The Truth is inconvenient at times, heh?,,,,,,
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Or are they libertarians? There is a difference.
Please cite your evidence.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)are 'confessed Rand Paul Supporters.'
The first is a link to one of Prosense's 50+ "I hate Greenwald" opinion posts.
The Guardian article that Prosense quotes discusses Paul's filibuster of Brennen and Greenwalds understandable disappointment that only a handful of Democrats and an Independent supported it, conceding civil liberties ground to wingnuts like Paul.
Nowhere in that article was he a "confessed Rand Paul Supporter."
The second article is from a rightwing website and uses the headline: 'Snowden Lawyer Close to Senator Rand Pauls Office' without any sort of evidence other than Fein's association with the Ron Paul campaign several years ago. The association with Snowden appears to be a recommendation from Paul's office that Fein might be a good lawyer for Snowden's Father to contact about Snowden's legal problems. So this article also doesn't support you assertion.
If you are going to be critical of Greenwald and Snowden, and because they are human beings, there is plenty to criticize, try going for something substantive and relevant to the information that they are putting out there. This Rand Paulite drivel underscores the weakness of your position of support for NSA dragnet surveillance.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)The links you provided don't support you opinion.
If they had, well, I would have conceded the point.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)We know ,,,,, nothing is as it seems..
one of Rand's lawyersjust happen to go over to defend Snowden.
Snowden makes contribution to Ron's campaign.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2830051
do you really believe in coincidences?
We know ,,,,, nothing is as it seems..
blackspade
(10,056 posts)along with other assertions that aren't backed up with facts.
I have a hint for you and the rest of 'Team Authoritarian;' If you are going to attack someone, go after them on the merits of their argument, not by attacking them based on their supposed associations.
Otherwise you sound like hacks, flinging poop in an attempt to make anything at all stick, rather than actually discussing the issues.
DanM
(341 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)DanM
(341 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I still haven't heard a decent argument from anyone on why there shouldn't be a full release...
DanM
(341 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)diluting the story or increasing reader apathy or accusations of 'holding back' since I'm guessing the cache is big enough to write 10+ years of daily stories if he wanted to...
But I understand the mindset behind this...This will be the only time Greenwald will have complete control/management over the data, and he has a multitude of reasons to not give it up anytime in the near future...
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)GG and ES have progressed the Conservative cause more that Reagan, Bush one and two, Rove. Cheney, and the Koch Brothers combined!
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)of the Democratic party platform.
"The truth has a well known liberal bias." - S. Colbert, 2006
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)know that it is the bases of the GOP Platform....
Changes will only come thru the courts.
Who do you want appointing judgeship's?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)"GG and ES have progressed the Conservative cause more that Reagan, Bush one and two, Rove. Cheney, and the Koch Brothers combined!"
In what way?
Nevermind, you can't coherently explain the comment because it has no basis in facts.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)you may not like the explanation ,,, but I can explain and support it with facts!
blackspade
(10,056 posts)I'm waiting with bated breath.....
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)trumad
(41,692 posts)I think it's looking like a Kabuki circus.
Quit fucking playing games and give us the information.
trumad
(41,692 posts)this is no game. The shit there are exposing is very serious. Give it to us and let's sort it out.
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)so it is a process of educating and informing. Look at the threads even today..silly, willfully ignorant posts which get recs. Usually the same group slobbering all over each other but I've seen a couple of them switch gears as they become more informed. I agree with the op, its brilliant.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)a process of educating and informing...yep. It takes time to sink in.
RC
(25,592 posts)damaging information will be buried and therefor missed, in the mass of of data. And by next week at this time, nothing will be left, as it all will all be down the memory hole, to be replaced by something shiny to help us forget.
No dribbling it out is much better, as it keeps the government overreach and lies before the public.
DanM
(341 posts)Then the NSA can go back to doing their thing in relatively safe secrecy again, as few will still be watching the NSA, but instead, will be looking for the next shiny, as the NSA will then be so yesterday.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...after a NY Times article.
The piecemeal approach is keeping the issue in focus.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)If anybody hates slow drips so much, go after the NSA's micro-slow, next-to-nonexistent drips. Somehow that particular annoyance never gets noticed, though, does it? I wonder why?
The criticisms of Greenwald are all just a little too pat. Gossip-thinking, it's a blight on humanity.
That's what the smug asshole in the basement was on about, "no more debate".
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)The ones who persistently put down Greenwald and Snowden.
Fuck those guys.
DanM
(341 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)going through all of the documents.
He has to analyze each one and fit them into a coherent context.
So, no, I'm not surprised that he is releasing things 'piece-meal.'
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)DanM
(341 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)they bank on it being forgotten. So, this is how you counter it in the age of information (a.k.a disinformation).
randome
(34,845 posts)And that this was not a game.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]
DanM
(341 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Is GG protecting the people or does he have some other agenda?
DanM
(341 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)But that does not appear to be the case.
As a simple example ... after his partner was detained, Greenwald said he had documents on UK spy programs that he was going to release and the UK would be "sorry".
Greenwald's motive appears to be revenge, not altruism. He has these documents. And he's been holding them. But because of the UK's actions, he intends to release them as punishment.
Why not release them earlier because of the "people's right to know"? Why hold them.
Have you noticed he keeps making threats? Is that how real journalists operate?
Consider Snowden. That guy is screwed. And Greenwald, he's sitting pretty.
A real journalist's only agenda would be the truth. Greenwald's penchant for hyperbole, and for making himself the story, suggests that he is something other than a journalist.
And that his agenda is anything but a noble search for the truth regarding the scary US government.
Maybe his book next spring will explain it.
DanM
(341 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)The NSA is prohibited, by law, from spying on American citizens. If you want America to rule the world and for the world to be under our laws and jurisdiction, come out and say so.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]
DanM
(341 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Although you did forget the part where he mistreats his lover.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)Cheers!
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)The media is what it is and our political structure exists in a symbiosis with it.
We get a leak that is followed by a story in the media which gets a public reaction and commentary. This gets followed by politicians being sought out for commentary. This then gets digested by the press and we get a second wave of the above.
More leaks and we get a repeat and in addition we see an evolution of how the leaks are processed and how connections are made to other, historical, evidence.
So, yeah, he has his reasons.
DanM
(341 posts)Babel_17
(5,400 posts)If we assume that the higher level officials who are stating mistruths know better then it's not so far-fetched to think that they are playing a short game. In other words, they could be lying now because their understanding is that this problem is going to go away.
Though it might be more a matter of having a low regard for the process of accountability. It also could be a bit of both.
DanM
(341 posts)stupidicus
(2,570 posts)it's a great application of the "give them the rope" ...
WillyT
(72,631 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)and THAT is worth the price of admission alone.
canoeist52
(2,282 posts)I remember my 1971 civics teacher explaining to us the reasoning for this - more exposure and time to digest the implications.
http://www.timetoast.com/timelines/the-pentagon-papers
Celefin
(532 posts)...because there was a very real possibility that people could get hurt since the documents hadn't been checked for information relevant to operatives' personal security.
Greenwald is vilified for not dumping everything at once because he gets much greater impact by using this tactic; but the documents are also analyzed and redacted where necessary to prevent harming operatives.
Some people should make up their mind.
I think GG is acting rather pompous and not very professional ('bring the government to its knees' etc.)... but that is a different story altogether. Nobody is required to like the man, but his approach to publication appears sound.
midnight
(26,624 posts)either now or later.... If this is the tip of the iceberg.... I sure wish more would be released...and soon....
TBF
(32,060 posts)he is doing great.
I think it's the sole reason they stopped David. They want to get Glenn angry - they are poking at him. They want everything released so they know what they are dealing with. If I were him I would think through very carefully how to respond.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)When you have a big fish on your line, you reel him in bit by bit. Keeps the fish on the hook and keeps the line from breaking.
I am worried that Greenwald's big fish is going to turn out to be Jaws, though.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)This has needed to be said plainly like you have) for awhile now.
thanks for pointing this out.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)...despite the ever growing mountain of evidence against them is hard for me to understand.
That was a Lost Cause several weeks ago,
when the claims that "The Government does not spy on Americans" sank beneath the Tsunami of Evidence.
The Denials have now turned into a Tragedy/Comedy Train Wreck.
I know I should avert my eyes from such degrading self-abasement,
but I just can't.
Little wonder why they are so bitter and angry.
While slime-ball Personal attacks, guilt by association, innuendo,
and shrill screams of "Traitor" and "Coward" are nothing new to America,
the Swiftboating of Kerry was the first time I could see the evidence of broad organization, and I think that the comparison applies to the current attempts.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)DanM
(341 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
Progressive dog
(6,902 posts)keep his name in front of the world. Good for him and the corporation he works for.
It's not about Journalism.
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)Just look at this thread.
They have been reduced to nothing more than bitter Ad Hominem flailing one liners, and cartoon smilies.
Talk about bankrupt,
and the controlled release of the information from Greenwald and the Guardian
is responsible for their embarrassing Melt Down.
I would say that their performance in this thread completely validates the OP.
treestar
(82,383 posts)madrchsod
(58,162 posts)he`s doing this to get material for his new book. it`s bound to be an international hit and it will put a lot of coins in his pocket.
hell anyone with half a brain and a good agent would do the same.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)reform. They don't know what else might be revealed, and want to quell the dissent in a hurry.
It is brilliant AND effective.
Even more telling is the terrified flailing we're seeing trying to shut it down. Planes grounded, laptops smashed, associates snatched and threatened.
These aren't the reactions of authorities confident they've done nothing wrong.
This is better than Wikileaks. Each story is given its due. Each one continues and amplifies the public outcry, which is the ONLY way we'll get anything done about it.
The rage we're seeing among those who put political convenience over even our supposed core principles is in direct proportion to exactly how brilliantly and effectively this story has been presented.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)If everything were released at once that would be it. And it would be too much for anyone to want to take the time to sift through and report on in any coherent manner. How many journalists care and dare enough to put in the time and effort that GG has on this?