Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

DanM

(341 posts)
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:56 AM Aug 2013

The Brilliance of Greenwald NOT Releasing Everything At Once

I've seen many a critic complain about Greenwald's piece-meal releases of info. They don't get it.

When you have information, you hold it until your opponent makes a statement which you can contradict with your information.

In this case, how many times has the UK and US government issued assurances that their surveillance states are not widespread and intrusive, only for those statements to be contradicted by a new piece of info? Numerous times, thus exposing the even greater evil that these governments' are willing to persistently lie about it.

That would be impossible if all the info were put out there at once.

134 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Brilliance of Greenwald NOT Releasing Everything At Once (Original Post) DanM Aug 2013 OP
Bingo Little Star Aug 2013 #1
another reason, just as strong: ChairmanAgnostic Aug 2013 #2
+1 KoKo Aug 2013 #17
There is a saying in press relations: "The media is like a tiger that comes to your door every KurtNYC Aug 2013 #21
and it's lunchtime, come to think of it. ChairmanAgnostic Aug 2013 #97
LOL at you thinking GG is "brilliant". tridim Aug 2013 #3
Not saying GG is brilliant, just the tactic of holding info until it can be used effectively. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #5
I guess that depends on what one means by "effective" bhikkhu Aug 2013 #83
Retaining info to vet gov't statements is highly effective for gauging gov't truthfulness. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #87
I might add, no one is too important to GG he would not use. Thinkingabout Aug 2013 #10
Not endorsing everything GG does, just explaining the brilliance of piece-meal info release. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #18
Opinion masquerading as fact. blackspade Aug 2013 #47
The onle people who have been "had" or "used"... bvar22 Aug 2013 #104
If you like Stewie... then you and Greenwald have a LOT in common! A LOT! nt TheBlackAdder Aug 2013 #112
The words "brilliance" and "Greenwald" should never be in the same sentence... SidDithers Aug 2013 #4
Not saying GG is brilliant, just the tactic of holding info until it can be used effectively. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #6
Hey Dan, dotymed Aug 2013 #64
I follow the party, but not blindly. I will not go over this cliff. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #71
So This Is A Game Of Chicken??? KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #7
One would think Cryptoad Aug 2013 #16
becuase that has worked so well in the past. bvar22 Aug 2013 #105
Let me make sure I have it right Cryptoad Aug 2013 #121
Let me give you a few clues. bvar22 Aug 2013 #128
No, it's a game of exposing ongoing gov't lying by delayed release of relevant info. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #24
And It's Doing What?? KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #27
Exposing ongoing gov't lying. I thought I said that already. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #33
Let's Get Proof... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #37
No proof of gov't lying? Exhibit A: James Clapper. n/a DanM Aug 2013 #43
Then Prosecute... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #45
Right, because if there's not a prosecution, a crime didn't happen. ;) n/t DanM Aug 2013 #56
Sadly... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #58
Happily . . . DanM Aug 2013 #67
That's All I Want... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #70
WTF????!!!!! "without a prosecution, yes," (no crime happened) ???!!! bvar22 Aug 2013 #106
So... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #119
???WTF again... THIS is how you defend your claim? bvar22 Aug 2013 #129
The DEA has kept it off the record by using parallel construction. dkf Aug 2013 #48
This Is Where The Pressure Needs To Be Applied... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #53
I think it's scary that all on the know are complicit and walking in basically lock step. dkf Aug 2013 #57
The Buying and Selling Of Our Privacy... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #62
This is proof of how far dotymed Aug 2013 #84
Massive spying hasn't been proven yet to be going on? n/t DanM Aug 2013 #28
Which is also terrifying our government MannyGoldstein Aug 2013 #8
Precisely. Not knowing what others may know drives gov't truth-telling. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #20
What would do wonders is for GG to come clean and tell the truth it would be possible, like Thinkingabout Aug 2013 #9
Come clean and tell the truth . . . good advice for US and UK gov't as well. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #30
How many news paper articles has been written by Thinkingabout Aug 2013 #36
Less than the number of news paper hard drives they've illegally siezed and destroyed? A guess. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #46
Is it less than the files and laptops Snowden stole? Miranda agreed for them to keep the items so Thinkingabout Aug 2013 #101
Not Miranda's, the Guardian's hard drives, and it was coerced. Have you read the news? nt DanM Aug 2013 #110
Yep, he gave them up, it wont be changed no more than the stolen files and laptops can return to Thinkingabout Aug 2013 #117
So what's more important to him? Playing tit-for-tat with the NSA? Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #11
Money, fame and adoration by his minions. tridim Aug 2013 #12
You what is REALLY narcissistic behavior: loving mass warrantless government surveillance. KurtNYC Aug 2013 #26
Are you saying strawman is narcissistic? tridim Aug 2013 #39
Well, in the poll I did there were two people who apparently do- KittyWampus Aug 2013 #95
The same reasons that make people run for POTUS. nt OnyxCollie Aug 2013 #86
Seems Cryptoad Aug 2013 #15
Ah the Rand Paul memo again.... blackspade Aug 2013 #60
you don't find it interesting in the least Cryptoad Aug 2013 #66
They are confessed Rand Paul supporters? blackspade Aug 2013 #78
sure Cryptoad Aug 2013 #88
Neither of these links support your contention that Greenwald or Snowden blackspade Aug 2013 #96
told you that you wouldn't like it,,,,,, Cryptoad Aug 2013 #122
It has nothing to do with liking it or not. blackspade Aug 2013 #125
BUll Cryptoad Aug 2013 #126
Another link that doesn't support your opinion blackspade Aug 2013 #133
US and UK gov't tit-for-tat activities should be feared and criticized MUCH more. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #32
Which is why I want to see the data ASAP Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #34
As soon as another government lie or contradiction will be exposed, I'm sure you will. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #49
Government lies and contradictions get exposed every day on a myriad of topics... Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #111
And the hits just keep on comin' in this case, ergo my point that GG's tactic is brilliant. nt DanM Aug 2013 #115
But if you stretch out the timeline too far, you have a much greater chance of either Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #116
Yes ,,,,,Brilliance! Cryptoad Aug 2013 #13
I don't think that mass warrantless surveillance, intimidation and secret laws are the basis KurtNYC Aug 2013 #29
and I damn sure Cryptoad Aug 2013 #35
What are you talking about? blackspade Aug 2013 #65
Oh , i can explain,,, Cryptoad Aug 2013 #69
Please proceed governor.... blackspade Aug 2013 #79
Change your mind? nt Cryptoad Aug 2013 #89
Don't agree... trumad Aug 2013 #14
Post #2... KoKo Aug 2013 #19
Again---disagree trumad Aug 2013 #22
then it would be yesterdays news..sort it out? there are folks here who refuse to believe anything xiamiam Aug 2013 #38
+++ marions ghost Aug 2013 #51
The problem is, if they release it all at once, there will be a minor mushroom cloud, most of the RC Aug 2013 #59
Plus, the gov't sees everything and they don't have to fear being caught lying anymore. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #68
That too. RC Aug 2013 #73
In 2006, an NSA phone spying scandal came and went Eric J in MN Aug 2013 #25
Strategic thinking -- it's nice to see once in a while. Waiting For Everyman Aug 2013 #23
+1. bemildred Aug 2013 #31
It also exposes the douchenozzle authoritarians. Arctic Dave Aug 2013 #40
Exactly. The main point to calling whistleblowers "traitor" or "criminal" is to distract. DanM Aug 2013 #100
Also, Greenwald probably has his hands full actually blackspade Aug 2013 #41
It's just a marketing strategy. nt Bobbie Jo Aug 2013 #42
Combine marketing with exposure of gov't surveillance and lying . . . sure, it's a win-win. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #52
It is a counter to the propaganda coming from the government Harmony Blue Aug 2013 #55
Oh, so Greenwald has 'opponents' now? And all this time I thought he was a journalist. randome Aug 2013 #44
Journalists' opponents include secretive governments. This is nothing new. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #50
That is the operative word. JoePhilly Aug 2013 #74
Agenda is as agenda does. Exposing massive surveillance and ongoing gov't lying = good agenda. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #76
If that's what he was actually doing. JoePhilly Aug 2013 #81
HELLO, it was done: massive surveillance and gov't lying about it was exposed. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #90
You keep going on about 'massive surveillance'. randome Aug 2013 #93
Me . . . and several million others. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #99
good job! you combined nearly all the Greenwald memes in one post! grasswire Aug 2013 #103
Bravo to Greenwald! He is doing this exactly the way it should be done! Vinnie From Indy Aug 2013 #54
It allows the media to work Babel_17 Aug 2013 #61
Plus, holding back info allows for exposure of gov't lying, which is what is most important. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #72
There's a disturbing implication to that Babel_17 Aug 2013 #75
Exposing gov't liars is noble. Failing to hold them accountable is not the messenger's fault. n/t DanM Aug 2013 #85
I agree completely stupidicus Aug 2013 #63
HUGE K & R !!! (Plus... It's Much More Fun To Watch 'Em Squirm) WillyT Aug 2013 #77
added bonus: it's pissing off the haters, naysayers, and sychophants.. frylock Aug 2013 #80
The Pentagon Papers were released in installments for the same reason. canoeist52 Aug 2013 #82
Manning was vilified for dumping all the info at once... Celefin Aug 2013 #91
The most obvious release is that the phone conversations of everyone is being spied on... For use midnight Aug 2013 #92
And I hope he continues to control himself - TBF Aug 2013 #94
I've said the same in the past - the tactic is very, very canny. GliderGuider Aug 2013 #98
THANK YOU K&R 99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #102
The SwiftBoaters are out in force today. bvar22 Aug 2013 #107
They're sounding a little less swift every day, though... nt GliderGuider Aug 2013 #108
The stubborn attempts to catapult the now laughable Talking Points and Denial... bvar22 Aug 2013 #118
Yes. Do it all at once and the issue is swept under the rug and dies. This keeps it alive. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #109
Not exactly. The point is to withhold rebuttal evidence until it is needed against gov't lies. nt DanM Aug 2013 #113
K&R. Clapper caught in lies. n/t Fire Walk With Me Aug 2013 #114
SO you are saying he is playing 'rope a dope' and winning? Rex Aug 2013 #120
Probanly sell more papers this way and Progressive dog Aug 2013 #123
You can tell the move is brilliant by how much it pisses the authoritarians off. DesMoinesDem Aug 2013 #124
It certainly has driven then over the edge of rationality. bvar22 Aug 2013 #130
And we get called "apologists." treestar Aug 2013 #127
brilliance? nah... madrchsod Aug 2013 #131
I think it's the sole reason we got the speech promising DirkGently Aug 2013 #132
I said the same a couple days ago. Also, it keeps the story alive. cui bono Aug 2013 #134

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
2. another reason, just as strong:
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:04 AM
Aug 2013

The modern media is like a school of fish. They see a bright, shiny object, and they go after it. The only time they spend any time on an issue is when it is potentially explosive, involves a missing besotted blond bimbo, or is about one of their own (see generally, Tim Russert)

If you feed them a bit at a time, making each bite ever more interesting and salacious, the more likely that the media will keep coming back. Like that guy who would take all his stale bread out to the pier, knock on the pier three times, then throw in the bread. Soon the fish knew to come there after the knock. Which made catching them a hell of a lot easier when the guy was hungry. Those fish are about as smart as today's media, and when you train them like GG is doing, it can work wonders.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
21. There is a saying in press relations: "The media is like a tiger that comes to your door every
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:40 AM
Aug 2013

morning, and the day you have nothing left to feed it, it eats you."

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
97. and it's lunchtime, come to think of it.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 12:34 PM
Aug 2013

Some pols say there is no bad press, there is only press. I doubt Weiner believes that.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
3. LOL at you thinking GG is "brilliant".
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:06 AM
Aug 2013

You've been had and now you're being used, just like his partner was.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
5. Not saying GG is brilliant, just the tactic of holding info until it can be used effectively. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:11 AM
Aug 2013

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
83. I guess that depends on what one means by "effective"
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:26 AM
Aug 2013

...if its getting a big "gotcha!" high five and "winning the internets", sure, its a tactic.

If its laying out the problem so that we can see what kind of regulatory reform is needed, its completely counter-productive.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
87. Retaining info to vet gov't statements is highly effective for gauging gov't truthfulness. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:39 AM
Aug 2013

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
47. Opinion masquerading as fact.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:23 AM
Aug 2013

Who has been had and in what way?
Who has been used and in what way?
How has his partner been used and in what way?

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
104. The onle people who have been "had" or "used"...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 03:17 PM
Aug 2013

...are the ones who still believe that
Big Brother LOVES us,
and only wants what is GOOD for us,
whether we like it or not.



They are still being "used" today.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
6. Not saying GG is brilliant, just the tactic of holding info until it can be used effectively. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:11 AM
Aug 2013

dotymed

(5,610 posts)
64. Hey Dan,
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:42 AM
Aug 2013

IF you had said Obama or the NSA is brilliant, This crowd would have loved you...

Nth dimensional chess and all that shit......

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
7. So This Is A Game Of Chicken???
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:12 AM
Aug 2013

...where releases are used like blackmail...and to what end? What is the purpose of withholding critical information that could prove that there is this massive spying going on? What's the problem with putting enough out there that can stir not only public action but legislative action as well. If there's to be changes, it's not gonna happen in some personal publicity stunt played out for maximum outrage but minimum action...

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
16. One would think
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:32 AM
Aug 2013

that if they wanted to stop these illegal activities ,,, all their info would be laying on the bar of some Court!

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
105. becuase that has worked so well in the past.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 03:20 PM
Aug 2013



...and Snowden should turn himself in to the
Proper Authorities.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
121. Let me make sure I have it right
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 05:44 PM
Aug 2013

he commits a crime to stop something he doesn't like he claims is illegal but he doesn't want to present the evidence of this crime to court who could stop it....... yea, right

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
128. Let me give you a few clues.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:32 PM
Aug 2013

Clue #1) Our Court System is corrupt, and serves to protect The Rich & Powerful.
SEE: Bush v Gore

"Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's Presidential election,[font size=3] the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law."[/font]
--Justice JP Stevens, Bush v Gore


Snowden and Greenwald have wisely chosen to present their evidence to the Court of World Opinion for a Fair Trial.....and I agree.
Very Smart.

Clue #2)The "evidence" has a long shelf life.
It doesn't Go Bad because it is distributed piecemeal to the PUBLIC for greater impact,
examination, and distribution.
After all the disclosures about "Secret Laws", Secret Courts, Secret Judges, Tribunals, and Secret detentions,
who can blame them. This is really a case of
They would be STUPID not to do it this way.

There is a reason for the Friday Afternoon Bad News Dump.
Americans have an MTV attention span,
and by Monday, the New Dog will be back dominating the front page.

If you really want something done,
then market it in such a way to keep the focus.
Yes. this is good marketing for a Democratic cause.

Look at it this way,
it is insurance to make sure that nothing and nobody gets "disappeared".

...but I believe you already know all that, and are just playing dumb for other reasons.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
27. And It's Doing What??
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:46 AM
Aug 2013

...pissing off people who are already pissed off? This is turning into an endless loop of nothing. Trial by media gets hits on websites and sells books but it does little to solve the problem...only aggravates it for personal gains and agendas. Let's get these crimes out public...evidence...then push for legal and legislative action. Isn't that what these disclosure are supposed to generate? Why wait??

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
37. Let's Get Proof...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:00 AM
Aug 2013

...which hasn't been presented. Real, hard evidence of the NSA going into someone's personal email or phone calls and using it to prosecute them. Let's see evidence that every call is being recorded and every keystroke is monitored like Mr. Snowden claims...let's see real proof that this is the case, not a powerpoint presentation. In short, it's time to end the speculation and let's get out facts and evidence. Bring it to legislators and lawyers who can put an end to abuses and prosecute those who have abused the laws. Let's see what is "lying" and what is legal under current law...and if those are too evasive, work to change them. Let's get action, not words and posturing...

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
45. Then Prosecute...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:22 AM
Aug 2013

...Congresscriters have the power to refer him to the Justice Department for perjury. Let's get specific proof. Again...let's find someone who had their calls listened into or emails read without a warrant or who were being prosecuted based on such spying. I'm not debating IF there are abuses, I want to know real evidence. Let's get proof Clapper is lying...

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
58. Sadly...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:38 AM
Aug 2013

...without a prosecution, yes, that is the case. Of course if you're for playing games, then speculation and trial by bloggers and media are just fine. They keep the fires stoked and little else happens..

 

DanM

(341 posts)
67. Happily . . .
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:45 AM
Aug 2013

We have the government's own documents and admissions to compare to the speculation and blogger opinion. In fact, ignore all the speculation and opinion and just look at the documents and admissions, if you want. Just those make the case against the gov't.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
70. That's All I Want...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:52 AM
Aug 2013

...I could care less about the personalities here and see them as a major distraction. If there's real abuses let's get facts out and not the drip drip drip and blackmail game. I have not seen any government documents admitting to abusing FISA laws...and if you could provide that info it'd be appreciated...

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
106. WTF????!!!!! "without a prosecution, yes," (no crime happened) ???!!!
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 03:23 PM
Aug 2013

I can NOT believe you posted such embarrassing nonsense on a public board.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
119. So...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 05:06 PM
Aug 2013

...exhaulted one...please enlighten us lower heathens as to how you will eliminate the spying...both public and private. Please, oh, please, come down from on high and explain how you will accomplish this and make the world a better place...

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
129. ???WTF again... THIS is how you defend your claim?
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:48 PM
Aug 2013

With a unsupported Ad Hominem Personal Attack?
Were you hoping nobody here would be smart enough to see through your clever dodge?
Didn't work.

You remember your post # 58?
Its right up there^^^ where everybody can still see it.

YOU said:

[font color=firebrick size=3]"If there is no prosecution then, YES , that is the case" (that no crime has been committed.)[/font]
post # 58 by KharmaTrain


I think we would all like to see a little elaboration on the point you are trying to make.
Please Proceed.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
48. The DEA has kept it off the record by using parallel construction.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:24 AM
Aug 2013

The biggest scandal is in the DOJ. We probably need a new whistleblower to show us that doc. The sad thing is so many know about it but hardly anyone will speak of it. There are no patriots any more. Only 4 in the entire universe of Government workers.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
53. This Is Where The Pressure Needs To Be Applied...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:32 AM
Aug 2013

...nothing pissed me off more during the FISA debates when Jay Rockefeller admitted to knowing about the spying and got so upset he wrote a letter and stuck it in his desk. He was "sworn" to secrecy but also was a minority member and had real little power to expose things without paying a heavy price. A price, as you point out, few patriots will do.

If there's all this evidence...it needs to be brought into the open and then pressure applied to legislators to get answers. I'd like to see the establishment of a new Church commission with a Senator Wyden or Sanders at the helm to separate what's currently legal, what abuses have occurred and who was responsible and ways to curtail future intrusions. Playing games with sensitive information is doing nothing but antagonizing people further...not getting any closer to finding out the truth...

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
57. I think it's scary that all on the know are complicit and walking in basically lock step.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:36 AM
Aug 2013

Even those who know its unconstitutional. Their oath of office to uphold the constitution has been violated enmasse.

Isn't that the true scandal?

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
62. The Buying and Selling Of Our Privacy...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:41 AM
Aug 2013

...has long been my concern. It needs to be investigated and let's find out where our privacy really stands. If the legislative fails, there's still the courts and use of discovery and subpoena power to get the answers our legislators are afraid of...

dotymed

(5,610 posts)
84. This is proof of how far
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:30 AM
Aug 2013

"they" are willing to go with their warrantless wiretapping.

When they do it with a warrant, through a FISA court, they at least have to get a rubber stamp to access your "stored information."


http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-spying-order-specifically-targeted-americans-not-foreigners/


If you want the original documents that Snowden (a whistleblower) provided. good luck. There are copies of them on Google, (which also granted access to the NSA).

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
8. Which is also terrifying our government
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:13 AM
Aug 2013

They fear that any and every lie that they tell will blow up in their face. Gone are the days where the "least untruthful answer" will be fine.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
9. What would do wonders is for GG to come clean and tell the truth it would be possible, like
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:18 AM
Aug 2013

cognitive dissonance, he continues to say something long enough he begins to believe it. His integrity has been destroyed by himself, he writings are like reading the rags in the check out line. He has many believing there is mass warrantless wiretapping occurring and the audit shows it typing errors and others who did not follow protocol and in a year only 2700, don't know why he can not tell the truth. Posters show Obama speaking in 2007 about warrantless wiretapping in which the Bush administration thought was allowed by Bush war powers, this was changed before Bush left office and the FISA court was used to issue warrants. Obama took an oath to uphold the Constitution and this is what he is obligated to do.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
46. Less than the number of news paper hard drives they've illegally siezed and destroyed? A guess. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:23 AM
Aug 2013

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
101. Is it less than the files and laptops Snowden stole? Miranda agreed for them to keep the items so
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 02:39 PM
Aug 2013

he gave them away, not stolen.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
117. Yep, he gave them up, it wont be changed no more than the stolen files and laptops can return to
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 04:27 PM
Aug 2013

Everything to normal. Why in the hell would Miranda have Guardian items in his possession? If GG wants truth then he needs to stop the lying. He used Miranda as a mule, set him up to do something he did not want to do, the items was given up by the mule, you want to be angry, start with the one who set Miranda up, be angry at Miranda the one with a failed mission, or anyone who had input and was not as smart as the big boys. Professionals would not have been caught.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
11. So what's more important to him? Playing tit-for-tat with the NSA?
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:21 AM
Aug 2013

or the public's right to know (you know, that whole purpose for why any of us get into journalism in the first place)?

tridim

(45,358 posts)
39. Are you saying strawman is narcissistic?
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:12 AM
Aug 2013

Because there are NO DU'ers who "love mass warrantless government surveillance". Not a single one.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
15. Seems
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:29 AM
Aug 2013

they don't have any proof of any illegal acts haven taken place. They are just getting their 15 minutes in all the while helping Rand Paul out!

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
60. Ah the Rand Paul memo again....
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:40 AM
Aug 2013

That has got to be one of the most tired authoritarian memos out there.

And it seems that you have read almost nothing about the NSA programs over the summer.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
66. you don't find it interesting in the least
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:44 AM
Aug 2013

that all the players are confessed Rand Paul Supporters ......

The Truth is inconvenient at times, heh?,,,,,,

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
78. They are confessed Rand Paul supporters?
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:20 AM
Aug 2013

Or are they libertarians? There is a difference.

Please cite your evidence.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
96. Neither of these links support your contention that Greenwald or Snowden
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 12:33 PM
Aug 2013

are 'confessed Rand Paul Supporters.'

The first is a link to one of Prosense's 50+ "I hate Greenwald" opinion posts.
The Guardian article that Prosense quotes discusses Paul's filibuster of Brennen and Greenwalds understandable disappointment that only a handful of Democrats and an Independent supported it, conceding civil liberties ground to wingnuts like Paul.
Nowhere in that article was he a "confessed Rand Paul Supporter."

The second article is from a rightwing website and uses the headline: 'Snowden Lawyer Close to Senator Rand Paul’s Office' without any sort of evidence other than Fein's association with the Ron Paul campaign several years ago. The association with Snowden appears to be a recommendation from Paul's office that Fein might be a good lawyer for Snowden's Father to contact about Snowden's legal problems. So this article also doesn't support you assertion.

If you are going to be critical of Greenwald and Snowden, and because they are human beings, there is plenty to criticize, try going for something substantive and relevant to the information that they are putting out there. This Rand Paulite drivel underscores the weakness of your position of support for NSA dragnet surveillance.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
125. It has nothing to do with liking it or not.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:26 PM
Aug 2013

The links you provided don't support you opinion.

If they had, well, I would have conceded the point.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
126. BUll
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:41 PM
Aug 2013

We know ,,,,, nothing is as it seems..

one of Rand's lawyersjust happen to go over to defend Snowden.

Snowden makes contribution to Ron's campaign.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2830051

do you really believe in coincidences?

We know ,,,,, nothing is as it seems..

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
133. Another link that doesn't support your opinion
Wed Aug 21, 2013, 01:23 AM
Aug 2013

along with other assertions that aren't backed up with facts.

I have a hint for you and the rest of 'Team Authoritarian;' If you are going to attack someone, go after them on the merits of their argument, not by attacking them based on their supposed associations.
Otherwise you sound like hacks, flinging poop in an attempt to make anything at all stick, rather than actually discussing the issues.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
111. Government lies and contradictions get exposed every day on a myriad of topics...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 03:50 PM
Aug 2013

I still haven't heard a decent argument from anyone on why there shouldn't be a full release...

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
116. But if you stretch out the timeline too far, you have a much greater chance of either
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 04:15 PM
Aug 2013

diluting the story or increasing reader apathy or accusations of 'holding back' since I'm guessing the cache is big enough to write 10+ years of daily stories if he wanted to...

But I understand the mindset behind this...This will be the only time Greenwald will have complete control/management over the data, and he has a multitude of reasons to not give it up anytime in the near future...

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
13. Yes ,,,,,Brilliance!
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:26 AM
Aug 2013

GG and ES have progressed the Conservative cause more that Reagan, Bush one and two, Rove. Cheney, and the Koch Brothers combined!

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
29. I don't think that mass warrantless surveillance, intimidation and secret laws are the basis
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:47 AM
Aug 2013

of the Democratic party platform.

"The truth has a well known liberal bias." - S. Colbert, 2006

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
35. and I damn sure
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:54 AM
Aug 2013

know that it is the bases of the GOP Platform....

Changes will only come thru the courts.

Who do you want appointing judgeship's?

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
65. What are you talking about?
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:43 AM
Aug 2013
"GG and ES have progressed the Conservative cause more that Reagan, Bush one and two, Rove. Cheney, and the Koch Brothers combined!"


In what way?

Nevermind, you can't coherently explain the comment because it has no basis in facts.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
69. Oh , i can explain,,,
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:48 AM
Aug 2013

you may not like the explanation ,,, but I can explain and support it with facts!

 

trumad

(41,692 posts)
14. Don't agree...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:27 AM
Aug 2013

I think it's looking like a Kabuki circus.

Quit fucking playing games and give us the information.

 

trumad

(41,692 posts)
22. Again---disagree
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:40 AM
Aug 2013

this is no game. The shit there are exposing is very serious. Give it to us and let's sort it out.

xiamiam

(4,906 posts)
38. then it would be yesterdays news..sort it out? there are folks here who refuse to believe anything
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:05 AM
Aug 2013

so it is a process of educating and informing. Look at the threads even today..silly, willfully ignorant posts which get recs. Usually the same group slobbering all over each other but I've seen a couple of them switch gears as they become more informed. I agree with the op, its brilliant.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
59. The problem is, if they release it all at once, there will be a minor mushroom cloud, most of the
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:38 AM
Aug 2013

damaging information will be buried and therefor missed, in the mass of of data. And by next week at this time, nothing will be left, as it all will all be down the memory hole, to be replaced by something shiny to help us forget.
No dribbling it out is much better, as it keeps the government overreach and lies before the public.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
68. Plus, the gov't sees everything and they don't have to fear being caught lying anymore. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:47 AM
Aug 2013
 

RC

(25,592 posts)
73. That too.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:59 AM
Aug 2013

Then the NSA can go back to doing their thing in relatively safe secrecy again, as few will still be watching the NSA, but instead, will be looking for the next shiny, as the NSA will then be so yesterday.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
25. In 2006, an NSA phone spying scandal came and went
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:42 AM
Aug 2013

...after a NY Times article.

The piecemeal approach is keeping the issue in focus.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
23. Strategic thinking -- it's nice to see once in a while.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:41 AM
Aug 2013

If anybody hates slow drips so much, go after the NSA's micro-slow, next-to-nonexistent drips. Somehow that particular annoyance never gets noticed, though, does it? I wonder why?

The criticisms of Greenwald are all just a little too pat. Gossip-thinking, it's a blight on humanity.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
40. It also exposes the douchenozzle authoritarians.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:15 AM
Aug 2013

The ones who persistently put down Greenwald and Snowden.


Fuck those guys.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
41. Also, Greenwald probably has his hands full actually
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:17 AM
Aug 2013

going through all of the documents.
He has to analyze each one and fit them into a coherent context.

So, no, I'm not surprised that he is releasing things 'piece-meal.'

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
55. It is a counter to the propaganda coming from the government
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:33 AM
Aug 2013

they bank on it being forgotten. So, this is how you counter it in the age of information (a.k.a disinformation).

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
44. Oh, so Greenwald has 'opponents' now? And all this time I thought he was a journalist.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:19 AM
Aug 2013

And that this was not a game.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

 

DanM

(341 posts)
76. Agenda is as agenda does. Exposing massive surveillance and ongoing gov't lying = good agenda. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:13 AM
Aug 2013

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
81. If that's what he was actually doing.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:25 AM
Aug 2013

But that does not appear to be the case.

As a simple example ... after his partner was detained, Greenwald said he had documents on UK spy programs that he was going to release and the UK would be "sorry".

Greenwald's motive appears to be revenge, not altruism. He has these documents. And he's been holding them. But because of the UK's actions, he intends to release them as punishment.

Why not release them earlier because of the "people's right to know"? Why hold them.

Have you noticed he keeps making threats? Is that how real journalists operate?

Consider Snowden. That guy is screwed. And Greenwald, he's sitting pretty.

A real journalist's only agenda would be the truth. Greenwald's penchant for hyperbole, and for making himself the story, suggests that he is something other than a journalist.

And that his agenda is anything but a noble search for the truth regarding the scary US government.

Maybe his book next spring will explain it.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
93. You keep going on about 'massive surveillance'.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:57 AM
Aug 2013

The NSA is prohibited, by law, from spying on American citizens. If you want America to rule the world and for the world to be under our laws and jurisdiction, come out and say so.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
103. good job! you combined nearly all the Greenwald memes in one post!
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 02:59 PM
Aug 2013

Although you did forget the part where he mistreats his lover.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
61. It allows the media to work
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:40 AM
Aug 2013

The media is what it is and our political structure exists in a symbiosis with it.

We get a leak that is followed by a story in the media which gets a public reaction and commentary. This gets followed by politicians being sought out for commentary. This then gets digested by the press and we get a second wave of the above.

More leaks and we get a repeat and in addition we see an evolution of how the leaks are processed and how connections are made to other, historical, evidence.

So, yeah, he has his reasons.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
72. Plus, holding back info allows for exposure of gov't lying, which is what is most important. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:56 AM
Aug 2013

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
75. There's a disturbing implication to that
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:11 AM
Aug 2013

If we assume that the higher level officials who are stating mistruths know better then it's not so far-fetched to think that they are playing a short game. In other words, they could be lying now because their understanding is that this problem is going to go away.

Though it might be more a matter of having a low regard for the process of accountability. It also could be a bit of both.

 

DanM

(341 posts)
85. Exposing gov't liars is noble. Failing to hold them accountable is not the messenger's fault. n/t
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:32 AM
Aug 2013

frylock

(34,825 posts)
80. added bonus: it's pissing off the haters, naysayers, and sychophants..
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:25 AM
Aug 2013

and THAT is worth the price of admission alone.

canoeist52

(2,282 posts)
82. The Pentagon Papers were released in installments for the same reason.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:25 AM
Aug 2013

I remember my 1971 civics teacher explaining to us the reasoning for this - more exposure and time to digest the implications.

http://www.timetoast.com/timelines/the-pentagon-papers

Celefin

(532 posts)
91. Manning was vilified for dumping all the info at once...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:45 AM
Aug 2013

...because there was a very real possibility that people could get hurt since the documents hadn't been checked for information relevant to operatives' personal security.

Greenwald is vilified for not dumping everything at once because he gets much greater impact by using this tactic; but the documents are also analyzed and redacted where necessary to prevent harming operatives.

Some people should make up their mind.

I think GG is acting rather pompous and not very professional ('bring the government to its knees' etc.)... but that is a different story altogether. Nobody is required to like the man, but his approach to publication appears sound.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
92. The most obvious release is that the phone conversations of everyone is being spied on... For use
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:53 AM
Aug 2013

either now or later.... If this is the tip of the iceberg.... I sure wish more would be released...and soon....

TBF

(32,060 posts)
94. And I hope he continues to control himself -
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 12:01 PM
Aug 2013

he is doing great.

I think it's the sole reason they stopped David. They want to get Glenn angry - they are poking at him. They want everything released so they know what they are dealing with. If I were him I would think through very carefully how to respond.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
98. I've said the same in the past - the tactic is very, very canny.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 12:45 PM
Aug 2013

When you have a big fish on your line, you reel him in bit by bit. Keeps the fish on the hook and keeps the line from breaking.

I am worried that Greenwald's big fish is going to turn out to be Jaws, though.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
102. THANK YOU K&R
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 02:39 PM
Aug 2013

This has needed to be said plainly like you have) for awhile now.

thanks for pointing this out.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
118. The stubborn attempts to catapult the now laughable Talking Points and Denial...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 04:29 PM
Aug 2013

...despite the ever growing mountain of evidence against them is hard for me to understand.

That was a Lost Cause several weeks ago,
when the claims that "The Government does not spy on Americans" sank beneath the Tsunami of Evidence.

The Denials have now turned into a Tragedy/Comedy Train Wreck.
I know I should avert my eyes from such degrading self-abasement,
but I just can't.
Little wonder why they are so bitter and angry.

While slime-ball Personal attacks, guilt by association, innuendo,
and shrill screams of "Traitor" and "Coward" are nothing new to America,
the Swiftboating of Kerry was the first time I could see the evidence of broad organization, and I think that the comparison applies to the current attempts.

Progressive dog

(6,902 posts)
123. Probanly sell more papers this way and
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:23 PM
Aug 2013

keep his name in front of the world. Good for him and the corporation he works for.
It's not about Journalism.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
130. It certainly has driven then over the edge of rationality.
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:56 PM
Aug 2013

Just look at this thread.
They have been reduced to nothing more than bitter Ad Hominem flailing one liners, and cartoon smilies.

Talk about bankrupt,
and the controlled release of the information from Greenwald and the Guardian
is responsible for their embarrassing Melt Down.

I would say that their performance in this thread completely validates the OP.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
127. And we get called "apologists."
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:43 PM
Aug 2013
If that information is something we are all entitled to have because it's our democratic right, then it should all be dumped out there right away.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
131. brilliance? nah...
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:23 PM
Aug 2013

he`s doing this to get material for his new book. it`s bound to be an international hit and it will put a lot of coins in his pocket.

hell anyone with half a brain and a good agent would do the same.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
132. I think it's the sole reason we got the speech promising
Wed Aug 21, 2013, 12:25 AM
Aug 2013

reform. They don't know what else might be revealed, and want to quell the dissent in a hurry.

It is brilliant AND effective.

Even more telling is the terrified flailing we're seeing trying to shut it down. Planes grounded, laptops smashed, associates snatched and threatened.

These aren't the reactions of authorities confident they've done nothing wrong.

This is better than Wikileaks. Each story is given its due. Each one continues and amplifies the public outcry, which is the ONLY way we'll get anything done about it.

The rage we're seeing among those who put political convenience over even our supposed core principles is in direct proportion to exactly how brilliantly and effectively this story has been presented.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
134. I said the same a couple days ago. Also, it keeps the story alive.
Wed Aug 21, 2013, 01:25 AM
Aug 2013

If everything were released at once that would be it. And it would be too much for anyone to want to take the time to sift through and report on in any coherent manner. How many journalists care and dare enough to put in the time and effort that GG has on this?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The Brilliance of Greenwa...