Tennessee father and son dead after AR-15 goes off and ammunition-filled room explodes

[phantom power]

Officials in Tennessee say that a father and his 12-year-old son died over the weekend died after an AR-15 assault-style rifle accidentally discharged, causing a fire and then a series of explosions in a room full of ammunition.

WBBJ-TV reported on Monday that Tennessee State Bomb and Arson Investigators, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and Henderson County Sheriff’s Department were all looking into the Sunday deaths 48-year-old Terry York and his son, Luke.

According to family members, York’s AR-15 rifle accidentally discharged while he was in a back room of their home showing it off to some friends. The discharge ignited a small fire, which “did not seem too threatening at first,” they told WBBJ-TV. The blaze apparently grew out of control after Luke entered the room to help his father put out fire.

That’s when witnesses started hearing explosions.

“It was just like one right after another,” neighbor Kathleen Glass recalled. “One explosion right after another. I just don’t have the words for it because I can not imagine having to go through something like this.”

The family said that York stored a lot of ammunition in the room where the fire started, but officials insisted that they would conduct a full investigation before coming to any conclusions.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/20/tennessee-father-and-son-dead-after-ar-15-goes-off-and-ammunition-filled-room-explodes/

[TwilightGardener]

1. Sounds like Dad shouldn't have been in possession of a BB gun, let alone an arsenal.

Fucking dumbass.

[booley]

14. too bad

we never find this out until after the horrible happens.

[kelliekat44]

131. Sounds t me like dad was putting together some explosive stuff. nt

[frylock]

2. it's unfortunate that the kid got caught up in the old man's dumbfuckery..

those things sure have a tendency to accidently discharge, especially during show-n-tell.

[jberryhill]

4. No, no, no, no... guns never accidentally discharge

I learned that here on DU.

[hack89]

10. Guns are negligently discharged all the time

unintentionally pulling the trigger on a loaded gun is not an accident - it is negligence.

[GreenStormCloud]

16. They don't accidentally discharge. Instead, people screw up.

Somebody pulled the trigger without checking first to make sure it wasn't loaded. Possible Darwin Award for doing it in a room full of ammo.

Also violated a rule of fire-fighting. NEVER fight an explosives fire. Instead run like hell.

[jberryhill]

3. The story is missing an important fact

So, were his friends impressed?

[COLGATE4]

21. They were probably impressed with

several rounds of whatever he had stored.

[CakeGrrl]

98. Where did the friends GO?

What'd they do, run out as soon as the fire started and leave the son to help?

[bluestate10]

111. Maybe if those "friends" had helped put out the firs when it was small, the father and son

would be alive.

[jberryhill]

127. What would you think if I lit the room on fire..

[ileus]

5. AD's are pretty rare.

Reads more like an ND instead.

[CBGLuthier]

11. Well for sure we got two DBs and at least one less DA

[rdharma]

19. "Accidental discharge" is just another term for "negligent discharge" nt

And no...... they aren't "pretty rare".

[Lee-Lee]

24. No, they are two different things

An accident is just that- say a gun gets dropped while shooting and something goes wrong with the internal safeties (or it is an older one without them) and it goes off.

Anytime someone is handling a gun and it goes off because they pulled the trigger, when they were not intending to, that is negligence.

[rdharma]

45. No, they are the same........

If at any time you allow a weapon that is in firing condition to discharge "accidentally", that's a negligent discharge. Whether you tripped and dropped it, the trigger got caught on a branch, or your hunting dog knocked it over and it shot you in the ass..... it's a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

As a longtime former firearms instructor......, I can tell you that's a FACT.

[aikoaiko]

135. Do you really put a mechanical failure in the same category as behavioral negligence?

[rdharma]

136. No, I don't. Mechanical failures are almost non-existant. "Operator malfunctions" aren't!

Please tell us about any incident of "mechanical failure" that has caused an injury or death with a modern firearm..... THAT DIDN'T INVOLVE OPERATOR NEGLIGENCE.

Waiting...........

[aikoaiko]

137. I think that is what Ileus was talking about when he compared AD with ND.

I agree with ileus and you that true accidental discharges or those caused by mechanical failure are rare.

[rdharma]

138. And I'm telling you..... "accidental discharges" are ALL "negligent discharges".

And there are plenty of negligent discharges of firearms.

[aikoaiko]

139. I'm telling you that others consider mechanical failures that lead to discharges to be accidental.

They are accidental discharges because negligence wasn't involved.

I don't know what kind of shooting experience you have, but most shooters I know consider mechanical failures to be the only true accidental discharges.

You are correct that most unintended discharges are due to negligence

[rdharma]

141. Maybe we're in agreement......

What I'm saying is that I don't know of any injuries or death caused by modern firearm due to "mechanical failure" that didn't also involve negligence in weapon handling.

Agree?

[aikoaiko]

142. I agree.

Apparently the Remington Walker trigger is suspected in some cases, but I don't know of any for sure.

[rdharma]

143. If injuries or death resulted with the Rem. 700s (mechanical failures),.......

....then operator negligence was to blame.

The muzzle of a weapon should NEVER cross anything you aren't willing to destroy or kill. Loaded, unloaded, or at any time.

[bobclark86]

27. Nope...

Accidental is what happens when a Remington 700 fires without the trigger being pulled (they have a design fault, and it's well documented). That is rare.

Negligent is when some dumbass pulls the trigger on a loaded gun. That is NOT rare.

Like in a car:
Accident is when you don't see a nail in the middle of the night, it blows a tire and you flip over.

Negligent is when you are drunk and texting and you wrap your Porsche around a toll booth.

[rdharma]

56. No. That's known as a "mechanical failure".

And if somebody is killed ...... it's (once again) a negligent discharge.

[HubertHeaver]

6. Those "one explosion right after another" sounds

They're called "cook-offs" or "sympathetic explosions". Small arms ammo is a fire hazard.

[sir pball]

18. Operative word being "fire".

Smokeless powder and ammo are extremely flammable indeed, but not explosive at all. It's no more dangerous, or perhaps I should say no less unsafe, to have a workshop full of ammo than a workshop full of paint and solvent. Possibly worse, since burning liquids can flow and spread fire more effectively.

[Motown_Johnny]

22. Except that paint cans and solvent don't throw slugs at ~700 m/s.

Not even if they catch on fire.

[sir pball]

28. Bullets don't "throw slugs" unless they're in a chamber.

Without a heavy steel confinement vessel and a relatively long pipe to allow the gases to do their work, the bullet pops out of the case mouth and that's that. There's a loud pop, and a little fireball, and that's all. I've done it in my younger and more idiotic years, and the Mythbusters did it on a much larger scale. Since you apparently didn't see the link below, here you go...yay education!

[Motown_Johnny]

44. That was pretty good

It does make sense that the lighter weight casing would be the projectile since the heavier end would be more likely to stay put and anchor the explosion.


Unfortunately, in the case we were discussing the bullets would have (presumably) been in boxes and not thrown into the fire as a single unit. They could also be up against the side of a drawer or wall or some other solid object which would cause the casing to remain stable and the bullet to be expelled.


Muzzle velocity for the AK is roughly 715 m/s and I rounded down to ~700 m/s since they were not in a weapon. Clearly I should have rounded down much more.

My point is still valid even if my math was off. Paint cans and solvent won't create projectiles the way ammunition will.

[tularetom]

62. A .223/5.56 mm case weighs about 100 grains

Most .223 bullets weigh in at about half that. So if anything will become a projectile in this case it would be the bullet.

However, lacking the confinement of the chamber, there might be an noisy explosion but nothing is going to fly very far or fast. Even a typical plastic ammo storage box would not provide the confinement necessary.

[sir pball]

146. A cartridge cannot propel a bullet with any meaningful velocity without being in a firing chamber.

I'm not a professional ballistician, but reloading for 15 years still ends up imparting a good bit of knowledge, so here goes.

The CIP maximum pressure for the .223 Remington cartridge (presumably the ammunition in question, given the AR-15) is 4300bar/62,366 psi. If the powder is ignited without the case being supported in a vessel that can withstand that pressure (e.g. the chamber), the case will tend to rupture before the bullet even clears the neck; this could possibly create some brass shrapnel but given the ductility of brass it tends to just split and not disintegrate. There's no conceivable way to pack cartridges, in a box, on a shelf, in a gun safe, anywhere other than in a gun, that will make them spew projectiles.

I know I haven't convinced you, though, so here's a long, dry technical video for firefighters directly from the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (the US industry regulatory group), or a handy PDF summary if you don't want to sit thorugh 25 minutes of boredom:

[Lee-Lee]

29. You fail at physics

A bullet in a fire won't "throw a slug" at 700 m/s. In fact it won't throw it more than a couple feet at low speed.

The reason guns have a barrel and a chamber surrounding the round is that it is required to contain the gasses behind the bullet and push it up to speed.

No chamber around the case, it just ruptures, no barrel means the bullet doesn't get any speed.

[rdharma]

46. So the idiot and his son are "less" dead because they died in a fire instead of an explosion.......

.....caused by the father's negligent discharge of his AR-15?

[ManiacJoe]

69. Same dead, but now you have the most likely explanation.

If I was to bet on the cause of death, it would be on smoke inhalation.

[rdharma]

79. I'd say you are probably right on smoke inhalation.

But the actual "cause of death" ....... was the father's negligent discharge of his cuddly loaded AR-15 while showing it off.

[mainer]

23. I've been told that by other gun folks

they say that a bullet won't explode by itself unless it's struck by a hammer. But wouldn't the building pressure of high external heat (a fire) be enough to cause an explosion?

[hack89]

30. No - because the bullet will be forced out of the cartridge

before the pressure got to explosive levels. That's how cartridges are designed to work.

[Bay Boy]

50. I would expect people listening to the rounds cooking off...

...to describe those events as explosions. They would be small explosions but explosions none the less.

[ManiacJoe]

70. Both fire and primer impacts will cause a round to go off.

When outside the gun barrel, they will pop like fire crackers. See the Mythbusters video posted above.

[1-Old-Man]

82. True, but anyone who has burned ammunition can tell you they don't actually explode

Well, they do of course, but its like a lot of firecrackers going off, not like a high-eplosive sort of big bang. This story sounds odd to me, unless of course the guy had a few pound-jugs of black powder in there. That would be a much different thing.

[Downtown Hound]

7. Meh, two less Republican voters.

Sorry if that's crass, but seriously, fuck 'em.

[sarisataka]

42. Since one of the dead was 12 years old

yes that is crass (to put it mildly). Your deep concern for tragic death is noted

[Union Scribe]

54. sadly he's not the only one

expressing such thoughts in this thread.

[sarisataka]

57. Apparently the deaths of some children

are tragedies. The deaths of others a causes for celebration or a good source for humor.
I though we were better than this

[TacoD]

60. Jury voted 3-3 to keep. (nt)

[sarisataka]

61. Some days I feel

I have fallen down a rabbit hole

[Downtown Hound]

64. I hope not. n/t

[Downtown Hound]

63. Yeah, 12 year old that's probably going to grow up to be another fascist gun nut

freak like Daddy. So sorry, but I was thinking about all the children that might be saved from the horror of the next school massacre or Iraq War or global warming but won't because of assholes like this dad. Fresh out of compassion for these degenerates.

[sarisataka]

65. Really...

you are celebrating the death of a twelve year old because his dad owned guns so he was likely to grow up and start a war?

[Downtown Hound]

66. Not celebrating the 12 year olds death

Sucks for him that his dad was such a buffoon. I'm just being a realist and accepting the very high probability that one day he'd be old enough to vote, and when he does, lots of people are going to suffer for it. It's just what Republicans do. They get behind a ballot box, chaos and suffering ensue.

I didn't kill him, the Republican mindset did. So take your anger out on them, not me.

[sarisataka]

67. I do not know if the dad was

Republican, Democrat, Aryan Nations or Green party- your assumption is that the kids was on the road to becoming Hitler so "fuck 'em"

I find the deaths of criminals even to be tragic as with different choices they would be alive. Responsibility falls where due, in this care the father and carelessness, but it is not a blow for freedom, liberty and world peace.

[Downtown Hound]

68. Most Greens and Democrats

don't stockpile huge arsenals of AR-15's and ammo. If you really want to play the, "Gee we really don't know" game. Fine. We really don't know for certain. But let's just say I'm playing the odds.

[sarisataka]

74. I don't pro-rate

a child's value based on their parents political stance

[npk]

73. So by your rationale its perfectly OK for the US to bomb innocent children in Afghanistan...

Because the kids father is a terrorist or hangs around possible terrorists groups, or lives in an area highly populated by terrorists groups and the likelihood is that the child will just grow up to be another terrorists himself. This is the very same argument that conservatives use to justify the deaths of innocent children in the middle east. "Well its OK that the drone blew up the home of some terrorist and in the process killed innocent children, because those children will just become terrorists themselves one day." Children are never responsible for their parents actions, and many children overcome the shortcomings or stupidity or racist beliefs of their parents. In fact many Democrats/liberals have Republicans in their family, some even call them mom or dad. Your post should have been removed, but you really should do the right thing yourself and delete them because they are beyond disgusting.

[Downtown Hound]

77. No, I actually don't care about Republicans because of what they did in Afghanistan

and many other places. And I never said the child should have died. I said it's the fault of his parents and the Republican Party for creating such hysteria and advertising that owning a shitload of guns is a good thing for everybody. I didn't say YAY! Dead child. I said fuck 'em. Their own stupidity brought this on them.

Too bad the child's dead. But had he lived, odds are that in ten years we'd be seeing him at Tea Party rallies calling for the overthrow of a Democratically elected because he dared talk about taking away his MyPrecious so he could fight the evil libruls'.

So if you choose to grieve over that, be my guest. I've got bigger things to worry about.

[npk]

78. I could say the same thing about children who's parents commit terrorist acts all over the world

I could say "fuck em" to all the kids killed in Iraq and Afghanistan that died as a result of what there parents did all over the world, and that would make me a very sick person. Do you believe it is the fault of parents in Iraq and Afghanistan that their kids died in US led attacks. Lots of Republicans believe just that. Funny how you seem to share some of those same opinions of people you consider evil.

[Downtown Hound]

80. Problem with that is most of the dead children in Iraq

weren't the offspring of terrorists. In fact, none of them were, since Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. And I don't actually believe our government's account of 9-11, so I'm pretty sure most of those children in Afghanistan weren't either.

However, a better analogy for what we're talking about here is let's say some Al-Queda terrorists were teaching their children to be terrorists, and they accidentally blew themselves up doing so. How much would you really mourn? If you choose to, hey great. You're a great person. I just choose to save my emotions for those I feel truly deserve it.

[npk]

83. You miss the entire point

Of course the innocent people killed in Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, that is the entire point. It's the fact that they can be turned into a "symbol" of evil because of where they live, whom the might associate with, do business with, perhaps the religion they serve or the fact that they believe or support attacks on certain groups of people who "they" perceive as evil or immoral. Any of this sound familiar. You are equating somebody, which because they live in Tennessee - the South and happen to own guns, as being Republicans, which in turn makes them evil or likely to discarded as human beings by you. Hell you don't even know whether the family is actually Republican. Maybe they are Dems or maybe they could careless about politics. Does that sound familiar to how Bush viewed people in Iraq. There are a few bad apples in Iraq so the whole damn country is evil. That is what Bush thought and many conservatives still think.

The point is when you start viewing people as sub-human just because of where they reside, or what they happen to look like, or resemble in some shape form or fashion people you despise, you become just as immoral as they are.

[Downtown Hound]

85. Oh spare me the bullshit are you any better than them crap

I want you to honestly look me in the eye and tell me you think that a child that grew up in an environment where the dad is stockpiling hordes of assault weapon ammo is going to turn out just peachy. You can play the bullshit, "we don't really know game," but let's try and be real here.

Second, just because I'm sick and tired of Republicans making the world a shitty place and as a result I don't really get all choked up when an idiot offs himself doesn't make me as bad as they are. When I've caused millions to die and slide into poverty and put the future of the planet in danger for my own selfish short term gain or denied the civil rights to millions of Americans because of whom they choose to love, then you can say that. There might even be some truth in it. Until then you're full of shit.

[npk]

88. Uh wow.

You have really lost it.

I want you to honestly look me in the eye and tell me you think that a child that grew up in an environment where the dad is stockpiling hordes of assault weapon ammo is going to turn out just peachy.

So uh tell me do you believe that ALL children that grow up in homes of domestic abuse, will later beat their spouse. How about children that grow up in very poor neighborhoods where gang violence is occurring right outside their door, all those children are going to become gang bangers and criminals as well right. I guess there is absolutely no hope for these kids, might as well get rid of them and while we're talking about it might as well stop will all these after school programs and such, they're an obvious waste of time.

I guess all DEMOCRATS were all born DEMOCRATS. Yeah no chance that a child or any person for that matter could ever change.

So what should we do with all these dumb, shitty Republicans and their equally dumb, shitty children. Just give up on them. That is a great progressive attitude.

[Downtown Hound]

90. I said it before and I'll say it again

I DIDN'T KILL THEM. Got it? They killed themselves. I'm not giving up on anybody. I'm just not going to waste any more time on reich wing pieces of shit than I have to. I do so too much already.

Hey check back in 80 years or so, when the planet is fucked because of global warming. I wonder how you'll feel about Republicans and their selfish inaction then?

[npk]

94. Well I will most likely be dead in 80 years, but I get your point

So I will have to take your word on that. For the record I didn't say you killed them. I just think your attitude sucks a bit. Not a big deal, because I understand your frustration and where it comes from. Sorry if I offended you, was not my intent.

[Union Scribe]

96. It's amazing what people are willing to say isn't it? nt

[npk]

99. I think the poster is very frustrated over several issues and I get some of that frustration

But I can't believe how some people can be that callous. Maybe I have just not reached that breaking point yet and I hope I never do. But yes the posters attitude is not very good at all.

[Union Scribe]

93. People like you are frightening.

I don't know how someone with that attitude in their heart can possibly share any liberal value with us.

[JI7]

151. there have been many people including on DU who have had shitty wingnut Gun Nut type parents

[bluestate10]

115. I am not sure. One was 12 years old and only came into the room to help his father.

You make the assumption that he agreed with his father's politics, maybe, maybe not.

[Downtown Hound]

129. If he didn't, sucks to be him.

But I'm not going to hold my breath believing that to be the case.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

121. I'm in favor of strong gun control. I'm not in favor of your callousness toward a child.

[Downtown Hound]

128. Then mourn for him all you want

I have better things to do.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

130. Then you've lost your humanity, and you're of no use to anyone

I'll take my lock if that's to happen, but I need to tell you you're a real piece of work, possibly a sociopath, definitely a drag on society. I've seen you around here and there over time, but I promise, after the words you've posted here, I'll never forget your screen name. You're a vile person.

[oneshooter]

134. And despite all he has said, DU juries support him.

[Downtown Hound]

148. LOL. I'm hardly a sociopath, and I hate to break it to you

but you don't know me, and just because I don't conform to your ideas of compassion and behavior doesn't make me vile. Maybe you should stop trying to shove your version of morality down everybody's throat. I have no interest in feeling compassion for those who have caused me harm, and continue to seek to do so. If you have a problem with that, well, go fuck yourself. Have a nice day.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

149. I only know about you what you've shared, namely, that you're happy a child is dead.

So yes, I know enough about you to understand you're a soulless fuck. I'm 98% certain that you don't have children. If you do, they should be taken from you, because you're not a person who should be anywhere near children. This dead child didn't do you any harm, and I'm not shoving anything down "everyone's" throat....just yours, because you're acting like a goddamned sociopath. And although I now detest everything I know about you, I still sincerely hope you never have to experience what that kid's mother is going through right now. So by all means, tell me to fuck off, and I'll reply with a hearty, go fuck yourself back, you misbegotten piece of shit.

[Downtown Hound]

150. If you would get off your self righteous high horse, you might see that

I never said I was happy a child was dead. I said it sucks for the kid, but I'm not going to waste my time grieving over it. Not when it's his own idiot dad's fault he's dead, and not when I know that there's a huge chance he'd grow up to be part of a cause that's been a blight on humanity for far too long.

Oh yes, you can come out with the "we don't know what he'd really be" and that's true. But I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about that because statistically it's very unlikely that he would change and we'll never know for sure. So, I'll just chalk up this incident to Darwin at work and move on to showing compassion to those that truly need it, like say, people that have lost their homes, their jobs, their freedoms, and their futures thanks to the fascist policies of Republicans like the dipshit dad in the story.

And once again, if you have a problem with that, you can take your Wannabe Yaweh self-righteous moralistic fury and shove it up your ass. And go ahead and tell me that right back. I could use another good laugh from you, and you've already given more more than a few. What's funny about you is that you're so angry with me and I'm not with you, and yet you think I'm this evil maniac. I think you're mildly amusing but ultimately misguided. That's about the extent of my rage towards you.

[Little Star]

8. Jesus H. Christ on a trailer hitch. Stupid-ass father!

[KG]

9. yay, guns!

the message brought you by: the daily isolated incident.

[jberryhill]

13. Aw c'mon, you can't blame this on guns

This was clearly an ammunition problem, not a gun problem.

You see, you see, if y'all can't use accurate terminology then, uh, I'm right and you're wrong. Or something.

[leftyohiolib]

25. see guns dont kill people dumbasses starting fires in ammo rooms do

[riqster]

55. Since the fire was started by a gun, it seems fair to label it thus.

[onehandle]

12. Mothers. Do you have a gun nut husband? Do you love your children?

How sure are you that you and your kids are not in danger?

[Socal31]

152. How about a pool?

Surely anyone who loses a child to an accident needs to be used as an example.

Edit: Sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious.

[sir pball]

17. This doesn't add up, at least in terms of "killed in an OMG EXPLOSION"

Or at least, I doubt they were "blown up" or killed by the popping ammunition - I know firsthand that 1. bulk smokeless powder doesn't do anything like explode, it just burns (albeit very fast, but I've disposed of pounds of the stuff by fire and even in a confined space it's not going to kill) and 2. loaded ammunition cooking off is like firecrackers, lots of bang and no real bite. The bullet pops out of the case with a POP and that's about it, maybe tumbles a few feet. It's all quite a fire hazard, but not a detonation/shrapnel danger in any way. And since I'm sure nobody will believe me..

My money is on death by "normal" causes from fire - smoke inhalation and/or burns, especially since they were found "close to the door". Trying to put it out, lost control, overwhelmed before they could escape. The ammo in the room was great fuel for the conflagration, but this could just as easily happen in a basement/garage/workshop full of flammable liquids (paints, solvents, gas, oil, etc) and it wouldn't even register as national news.

[Lee-Lee]

20. I agree. I have seen lots of fires with ammo, seen lots of guns fired, this doesn't smell right.

Even watched a sporting goods store full of it burn once. No real "explosions:, just a sound about like popcorn as rounds cooked off.

Firefighters told me they feared hairspray cans and other flammable aerosols more than ammo.

Just based on the limited info, this doesn't pass the sniff test. A gunshot is very unlikely to start a fire, and ammo doesn't explode like that. Sounds more like an excuse made up to cover something up... this sounds more like how meth labs go bad.

[Ganja Ninja]

39. They may have been storing a lot of black powder. n/t

[bluestate10]

118. I agree. There had to be something like an uncased storage of black powder.

Bullets will ultimately cook off when heated and maybe those bullets killed the father and son.

[NutmegYankee]

125. They usually aren't lethal.

A bullet exploding without a barrel is just a big metal cased firecracker. The copper casing is actually the danger there. Lots of flesh wounds, few deep penetrations.

It was more likely powder. I use a black powder substitute for shooting a flintlock Pennsylvania rifle, and I only keep a small charge in a plastic dispenser because of static electricity concerns.

[jberryhill]

26. I gather you didn't watch the first ten seconds of that video

Ammunition wasn't the only thing in the room.

The video you posted demonstrates that a loaded gun will fire when subjected to sufficient heat. If it is a semi-auto, it will cycle the chamber too.

Was there at least one loaded semi-auto in that room? Yes.

[Lee-Lee]

31. An AR probably wouldn't keep cycling

Too much plastic and aluminum that would fail. One round cooking off is possible, by the time that happened the parts outside would be way too hot, past the point of failure, to still allow it to function.

[jberryhill]

37. Might there have been more than one gun in the room?

[sir pball]

33. We know a rifle lit the fire

You are correct - but the focus of this discussion seems to be about the "explosion", which I'm pointing out wasn't.

We don't know that it was left in the room. This guy obviously wasn't the most accurate barrel of the bunch, but I suspect that even he would have taken the gun out of the room. No indication in the news story that they died of gunshot wounds, either...I guess I'll have to see if there's any followup. I do suspect the ammo in the magazine would have exploded before the heat soaked into the chamber, but I'm not about to test that myself.

[Lee-Lee]

34. We know they claim the rifle started the fire, the investigation is ongoing

Like I said earlier- that doesn't seem likely to me. Rifles and pistols get fired indoors all the time. How many times have you ever heard of a police shooting indoors that resulted in a fire?

I still suspect there is far more to the story. White trash house fire with lots of explosions and an unlikely story almost always= meth lab in my experience.

But I could be wrong.

[jberryhill]

40. The thing is

The Mythbusters video shows two things. A larger universe of things is possible.

Yes, a round will not cause an "explosion" absent a pressure vessel - e.g. the chamber of a gun.

The Mythbusters video does not show, e.g., rounds in clips, ammo boxes, or other vessels which can initially contain the expanding gas to the point of violent sudden rupture - i.e. an explosion.

[rdharma]

49. No. The focus is on the negligent discharge of the idiot's AR-15.......

.... which caused the fire that killed the boy and his idiot father.

[OregonBlue]

32. If there is a silver liing to all of this gun nuttery, I guess it's that so many of these gun owners

are so low functioning that they are going to eliminate themselves, thus solving the problem of low functioning gun nuts.

[billh58]

35. Another responsible

gun owner exhibiting gun safety standards in a State which ranks number seven nationally in gun deaths. Also one of several Southern States which export guns illegally to Illinois and New York.

http://www.thecrimereport.org/news/crime-and-justice-news/tn-7th-in-gun-deaths-prepares-for-change-in-firearms-law

[npk]

76. You have a link that shows southern states are exporting guns to Illinois and New York

Because that link in your post contains no such information.

[billh58]

81. A quick

web search turned up these sites, but there is much more information available on the "pipeline" which supplies lethal weapons to both Chicago and New York (among other cities).

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/new-york-tough-gun-laws-weakened-states-article-1.1431333

http://blog.timesunion.com/guns/the-iron-pipeline-of-illegal-guns/2295/

http://www.wbir.com/news/article/201957/2/TN-gun-laws-or-lack-thereof-under-attack

This is nothing new, and states with lax gun laws have been a source for black market guns for years. This is the major reason that MAIG was formed, and other gun control organizations are joining in the fight against the practice.

Edit: One more link for Chicago:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/January-2013/Chicago-Gets-Its-Guns-Where-It-Used-to-Get-Its-Blues/

[npk]

84. You stated that "Southern states are 'exporting' guns to Illinois and New York."

Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Southern states are doing no such thing. Irresponsible gun owners and criminals in those cities are bringing and selling illegal guns into those areas of the country. I agree that we do need tougher federal gun laws and a national gun registry.

[billh58]

86. I should have said

that residents of Southern States are exporting guns to Illinois and New York. Semantics do not change the outcome, and States which have lax gun laws are a chief source of illegal guns for areas where sensible gun laws are in place.

MAIG is calling for tougher federal gun laws because of this "supply and demand" problem.

[npk]

89. I agree with you on the south has lax gun laws

It is hard to fight against that gross stupidity that many states continue to believe. But I still believe that we will get to that point soon, it will be a painful journey, but eventually we will get there.

[billh58]

92. I agree that it will

be a long hard process to undo the damage done by the political wing of the NRA and the corrupt politicians they have purchased over the years.

I am optimistic, however, that Americans like Gabby Giffords, and other grass roots gun control organizations will make a difference moving forward.

[Lee-Lee]

91. Tougher Federal laws won't change this

Because all of this buying in one state and selling in another is already very illegal- they simply don't enforce it. And local LE is not allowed to enforce Federal gun laws, so if they won't mess with it, nobody does anything.

I personally notified the BATFE of multiple federal violations- they were not interested in following up. They don't even follow up on the majority of attempts to illegally buy guns that get stopped by background checks- despite a crime having been committed when they do.

[Ganja Ninja]

36. How to know when your gun nuttery has gotten out of hand.

The term "Room full of ammunition" is a pretty good hint.

[BainsBane]

95. No shit

He must have had tons of it in there for a fire to have started.

[bluestate10]

120. A room full of ammo is nuts. The guy must not have had a job. How does one

secure that much ammo without a gun safe or human security?

[corkhead]

38. Might not be eligible for a Darwin Award

because he probably didn't believe in Darwin.

[MicaelS]

41. See what happens to modern sporting ammunition in a fire.

SAAMI - Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter

[ManiacJoe]

75. Good video!

[Arctic Dave]

47. I remember posting an article where the fire department refused to fight a fire in which

a person stored several thousand rounds of ammunition in his home and they were lighting off.

They where quite assuring that ammo lit off by a fire was not a hazard. Seems that is not the case.

[Union Scribe]

52. celebrating the death of a child.

There aren't words ugly enough to describe someone who would do that.

[sarisataka]

51. Something is not right in this story

It is difficult, though not impossible for a rifle shot to start a fire. I have seen several started with tracer ammunition, but can't recall any with standard ammunition.

Ammunition does not explode when subjected to flame. It "pops" with less force than a firecracker.

Speculation: powder was improperly stored and was ignited by the shot. Its properties would allow a fire to rapidly grow, especially if it reached other open powder containers. The bright fire and smoke were disorienting enough to keep them from escaping.
The explosions are exaggerations of the ammo cook off or if truly explosions there was a store of primers, blackpowder or other volatile chemicals stored in the room.

It is sad that the father died on his son's birthday through an avoidable accident. It is tragic the son perished trying to help his father. It is sickening to see some of the opinions of 'liberals' and 'progressives' to the death of a 12 year old

[ileus]

58. I'm assuming a reloading setup also.

[BainsBane]

102. meaning gunpowder?

they used to make bullets or something? If they had a stash of gunpowder that could have caused an explosion.

[Lee-Lee]

104. That could

But more of a flash fire than explosion.

[BainsBane]

106. It totally caused an explosion on the Borgias

[sarisataka]

108. Unless contained

see my theory below and see if you agree it is a possibility

[BainsBane]

97. What if the room was literally wall to wall with ammo?

So when the rifle went off, it set off a chain reaction?

[Lee-Lee]

100. Ammo doesn't go up like that

As I said, i watched a store that sold ammo burn- it was like popcorn popping.

[BainsBane]

101. burn?

so it did start a fire?

[Lee-Lee]

103. No, it wasn't ammo starting the fire

I don't remember what started it, but it was something to do with construction they had going on.

But get it hot enough, surrounded by flames, and it just pops one at a time like firecrackers.

[BainsBane]

105. Two possible theories

The father intentionally set the fire. Or two, he had a stash of gunpowder as well.

[rdharma]

145. Where was that?

I'm just asking because I'm a minority small business owner who would like to take appropriate precautions against such possible occurrences.

[sarisataka]

107. Even so it would not cause explosions

harking back to the days when I transported hazmat...

Small arms ammunition is classed as an explosive for transport but is more accurately a flammable solid. The powder burns really fast and if contained the produced gas will, in layman's terms, explode.
True explosives, TNT, C4, black powder... react differently chemically and will explode when ignited whether or not they are contained.
Explosives and ammunition need to be shipped in separate containers because an ignition of one may cause a sympathetic reaction in the other causing explosion or greater fire.

Typing this has given me a thought. Military ammo is stored in the ever popular ammo cans. It provides excellent weather protection and long term storage safety, but... it is possible for the metal cans to be a pressure container allowing the gas to build up. (Don't ask how I know that... I have a Marine 'friend' who gets bored out on the demo range, yeah that's it) With a heat source from a small to moderate fire, combined with powder ignited by the heat could cause an explosion leading to a chain reaction. I'm not 100% sure but it seems plausible in my mind.

[BainsBane]

110. He could very well have had that

Or even set the fire himself. Anyone who sits with his kid in a room full of guns and ammo isn't right in the head.

[sarisataka]

113. By that standard...

I am not right in the head, of course my wife will support you 100% in that statement.

When one of my children have a question on either guns or ammo, we will always go over the safety rules of handling. I will then make sure the guns and ammo are locked separately before the child enters the area. Any gun removed from storage will be checked to see that it is unloaded. The muzzle stays against a stack of phone books until we all see there is no cartridge in the chamber; I insist they trust no one, not even me, on word alone. Before any ammo comes out the gun will be locked away, again checking it is clear.

Safety is no accident and an invariable routine is the best way to keep safety at the highest level. I have told them they will have to do this routine themselves without mistake, under my supervision, before they will ever be allowed to shoot a real gun. Given their ages, that day is still years off.

[BainsBane]

114. how old are your children?

[sarisataka]

116. Six and nine

Along with the safety and maturity concerns, I also am thinking of the risks of lead exposure. For that reason they never handle the ammunition and very rarely any firearm. I believe removing the mystique can nip the curiosity... but never take chances.

My daughter is seems more interested in archery, thanks Girl Scouts, but i still curious about guns and does want to shoot one some day. My son being a six year old boy is of course very interested; we have regular discussions about responsibility and danger. I am considering the shoot-the-watermelon demonstration of the power of a firearm, but have concern it will have the reverse, that's cool effect. I would like to speak to someone who has done that and how they presented it to their children. Until then, education backed by multiple locks.

[BainsBane]

122. She must be a Hunger Games fan.

[sarisataka]

123. She's reading the book

loved the movie. i have yet to do either but I think I better do so soon

[Bay Boy]

53. I don't quite get how the discharging of the AR-15

caused the fire. Sure there is a fire ball that escapes from the barrel as the bullet escapes but it would need a very volatile substance near by to get a fire going. Open container of gasoline or a dryer lint collection maybe. I hope it comes out as to the source.

[bluestate10]

124. The guy must have had something in the room that ignited easily. All around, he was an

idiot if he kept materials that ignite easily near ammo.

[Lee-Lee]

133. My vote is still on meth lab

time will tell

[Jazzgirl]

59. Sad that had to happen.

But it does sound like a candidate for the Darwin Awards.

[Sissyk]

71. At least you are not cheering

the death of a 12 year old like two others on this thread. Thank you!

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

72. Maybe all his back issues of Guns and Ammo caught fire

or maybe not.

[Ruby the Liberal]

109. Darwin wins again. nt

[bluestate10]

112. I wonder whether the father was mouthing rightwing drivel as he waved the AR-15 around? nt

[Rebellious Republican]

117. It is always very sad to hear stories like this, peace be with the child! N/T

[Rebellious Republican]

119. It is always sad to hear stories like this, peace be with the child.

[burnodo]

126. Live by the gun, die by the gun

Honestly, I can't feel much sympathy here.

[gopiscrap]

132. Typical gun idiots

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. But, but...I was told here by local residents

That these explosions never, ever...happen.

[UtahLib]

144. Sad the son had to pay for the father's incompetence. n/t

[Zoeisright]

147. Darwin award.

Nothin' more to say.

[bravenak]

153. This is sad.

And why would you need a room full of ammo?