So, if I understand some people correctly -- if Bush detained Mr. Pitt's family that's be OK.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

My apologies to Mr. Pitt for using his family in this debate but I can think of no stronger analogy.

[Dragonfli]

19. What a colorful imagination you have, vile, but colorful

So tell me, when did he insult his life partner by calling him a mule? Also I realize "the lie" is a popular and often repeated arguing tool of yours but Greenwald never claimed anyone was carrying "stolen intel". Greenwald and his associates have been handling some information released to the press by a whistleblower regarding illegal government abuses, but reporting corruption is not a spy activity and neither Greenwald nor his associates are guilty of anything but exposing corruption.

Had Miranda and Geenwald stolen intelligence information and were transporting it to (enemies I guess in your delusion?), then I imagine they would have been arrested after 9 hours and renditioned to a country where we could contract out "more effective" measures of "interrogation" by allies who define torture even more ummm... flexibly than we do.

The lie tends to fall apart when they have to let the innocent go.


On a personal note, I once carried my wife's digital art portfolio across the Peace Bridge to the second half of the "Peace Has No Borders" anti-war protest being held Fort Erie Canada. I was stopped at the border with Bruce Beyer of the Buffalo 9. Her artwork was political and very anti-Neocon, so I imagine the Administration at the time (Cheney) would have considered us potential terrorists, they already have Bruce on such a list.

Did my act of carrying her artwork make me a mule? Or were you imagining something more along homophobic lines involving a prophylactic and creative placement of the media in question? I am definately getting an anti-gay hate vibe from most of your posts so I simply thought I'd have you clarify your rather colorful language.

[JaneyVee]

23. Greenwald admitted to the NY Times that Miranda was in possession of

Encrypted thumb drives and documents. Also, mule is not an insult, and as far as an anti gay vibe goes, guess who is a female living with another female? Run along now. Your intuition meter is far broken.

[Vinnie From Indy]

27. Go call your partner a mule and let us know how that works out for you!

Greenwald never said what information was encrypted.

[JaneyVee]

30. Why would I call anyone not engaging in that activity a mule? It's just a term.

Give me an alternative word meaning the trafficking of stolen or illegal property.

[Babel_17]

40. Encrypted data surreptitiously transported is often said to use "couriers"

Even when speaking of terrorists that is the word I think which is used by intelligence agencies.

It's a nice word because it's not a pejorative. Our government uses couriers, our enemies use couriers, it gets the meaning across with no extra baggage.

Calling someone a mule implies that they are being used as an unthinking beast of burden. It also brings to mind all the unsavoriness of the high risk world of dealing in narcotics.

[Babel_17]

44. Every courier is carrying for someone else, and it can be contraband

We employ couriers to get information in and out of places like Iran. It's considered contraband by Iran.

We don't call them mules and I doubt Iran's intelligence does either. It's common in the spy game.

[Babel_17]

61. You're missing my point

When someone is carrying illegal, encrypted, data between two points they are generally referred to as couriers by those in the intelligence business.

One can insist on calling such people mules but I don't see that being what is the tradition.

If someone carries something legal like diamonds they are still called couriers.

If the diamonds are stolen they are still called couriers.

"Mule" is a pretty specific term in smuggling. Though people might use it in a deprecating manner for themself or others. But for accuracy in regards technology smuggling I suggest "courier" is much more the accepted term.

And I'm not saying I know that what Mr. Miranda was doing was smuggling. If I had to guess I'd guess he was the go between for communications between Greenwald and Poitras. She at least figured her phones were bugged. And as we now know, e-mail has been compromised.

So if Poitras and Greenwald need to have a meeting of minds then someone trusted has to be used if face to face isn't feasible.

[Babel_17]

66. Uh, no, wikipedia doesn't say that

A mule or courier is someone who smuggles something with them (as opposed to sending by mail, etc.) across a national border, including bringing into and out of an international plane, especially a small amount, transported for a smuggling organization. The organizers employ mules to reduce the risk of getting caught themselves. Methods of smuggling include hiding the goods in a vehicle, luggage or clothes, strapping them to one's body, or using the body as a container. Sometimes the goods are hidden in the bag or vehicle of an innocent person, who does not know about this, for the purpose of retrieving the goods elsewhere.

In the case of transporting illegal drugs, the term drug mule applies. Slang terms include Kinder Surprise and Easter Egg. This is often done using a mule's gastrointestinal tract or other body cavities as containers. One method involves swallowing latex balloons (often condoms or fingers of latex gloves) or special pellets[clarification needed] filled with the goods and recovering them from the feces later. Other methods of carrying drugs within the body include insertion of the package directly into the anus or vagina. This method is far more vulnerable to body cavity searches. Another method is called Body Packing, which means the drugs are attached to the outside of the body, using tape or glue. Packed between the cheeks of your bottom or rolls of fat. Other places like, the bottom of special cut out shoes, inside belts, the rim of a hat, and other inconspicuous places were used more often prior to the early 90's. Due to increased airport security the "body packing" method is rarely used any more.

And in addition, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mule "Slang. a person paid to carry or transport contraband, especially drugs, for a smuggler."

It's clear that using "mule" is a choice to avoid a term like courier.

[Babel_17]

72. Wikipedia doesn't say the terms are interchangeable

A mule can be said to always be a courier but a courier can not always be said to be a mule.

It's why wikipedia has a separate page for courier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courier

If I need my documents taken to my brother I don't look for a mule, I look for a courier.

My point was that a better, more accurate, term is available but some people insist on not using it.

Wikipedia gets the idea across as when they talk about smuggling drugs in the body they no longer use the word courier, they use mule.

[Babel_17]

80. "There are better and more accurate terms for lots of words"

You choose not to use the better one, got you. I'm glad we finally got down to the nub of it.

It seems like people know so little of this matter or Miranda but relish disparaging him, and by extension Greenwald, by using the word "mule".

I guess The Pentagon Papers had its share of mules as well.

[Babel_17]

84. Except other people deny your point

They claim to be using "mule", factually, non-disparagingly. That's what a lot of discussion has been about. I don't want to assume anything but perhaps you didn't know that?

Your point about Ellsberg is arguable since we're talking about Miranda, not Snowden or Greenwald, and nobody has defected anyway.

Besides, I'm referring to the transportation of Ellsberg's documents. We'd never expect to see anyone who helped him transport the documents referred to as mules, would we?

[Babel_17]

92. Snowden has not defected

I know his detractors like to label him as a traitor or a defector but his actions don't fit the standard, imo.

Regarding Ellsberg:

On June 10, 2013, Ellsberg published an editorial in The Guardian newspaper praising the actions of former Booz Allen worker Edward Snowden in revealing top-secret surveillance programs of the NSA.[41] Ellsberg believes that the United States has fallen into an "abyss" of total tyranny, but said that because of Snowden's revelations, "I see the unexpected possibility of a way up and out of the abyss."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Later_activism_and_views

Edit: Lol, and we're talking about the actions of Greenwald, Poitras, and (mostly) Miranda, none of whom are on the run. And you were the one to directly name Ellsberg, I mentioned The Pentagon Papers.

[Babel_17]

98. That describes an attribute ("a manner"), it doesn't define it

And besides, that attribute doesn't apply to Snowden. His departure isn't what riled up our government so much.

His leaking of documents isn't what people think of as a defection.

From a conservative source:

For instance: what should we call what Snowden is doing? Is he defecting?

That implies shifting allegiance from one country to another. During the Cold War, defecting was a common enough thing. It was a crime to defect from the Soviet bloc or from China, but people were willing to risk it to live in the West. Going in the other direction, to live under an oppressive regime, was relatively rare. It was something that spies did, or hijackers, or terrorists such as Joanne Chesimard, the only woman on the FBI’s Most Wanted list, who defected to Cuba.

But Snowden has not stated any desire to abandon his American citizenship. He says he wants to help us. So that doesn’t really fit.

Snowden falls into a strange new in-between category: the whistleblower as international fugitive. This is, by its nature, a deeply ambiguous thing to be.

[Babel_17]

100. Ok, your opinion counts of course but let's look at the wikipedia page you quoted from before

In politics, a defector is a person who gives up allegiance to one state in exchange for allegiance to another, in a way which is considered illegitimate by the first state. More broadly, it involves abandoning a person, cause or doctrine to which one is bound by some tie, as of allegiance or duty.

You see the hurdle with that? If we use that definition then it follows that Snowden has switched his loyalty to Russia. And before that he switched his loyalty to the other countries he was seeking asylum in. I don't see that argument being made.
Now, using your current quote, we have defection defined as people not wanting to live in one place but rather another. I don't see that as applying to Snowden except that he doesn't want to be here to get arrested. I don't see that as analogous to an East German who wanted to become a West German.

Jumping the wall was a defection back in those days.

[Babel_17]

103. I'm listening

You're saying that Snowden is now loyal to Russia?

"And frankly, I don't care which country he's loyal to."

Ok, if instead you're arguing that he has no loyalty to any nation I can't argue against you and I hope you'll agree to disagree. I have to go out but I'm glad we got to debate this a bit.

Have a good evening!

[Babel_17]

121. What happened to the poster I was replying to?

IIRC the poster registered yesterday. Did the person delete themself and their posts or is that not possible?

[RC]

109. Actually Snowden did not betray his country. His and our country, betrayed its citizens, namely us.

[deurbano]

56. Courier for a journalist employed by the newspaper that paid the courier's expenses.

This "mule" thing... just another smear.

[Babel_17]

89. I'd forgotten about that, thanks!

That is a defining context.

[Egalitarian Thug]

29. Ah, I see. So recording devices and encryption are now illegal to posses

or transport in the dark world inside your head?

[Luminous Animal]

75. No he did not and you will not find a single quote from him saying so.

[Little Star]

117. I know Luminous Animal they just keep spreading these f**k*ing lies. ugh!

[CBGLuthier]

26. Your last paragraph is the first hint of homophobia in this thread

Have you never heard the word mule in this context? Sheesh.

[Dragonfli]

41. Until it became a convienient smear against someone's husband. It was only ever used

to describe people used by drug dealers as beasts of burden to transport drugs internally via the use of prophylactics and either swallowing or having such drugs forced elsewhere into the used "beasts's" body.

So uhh... NO... never heard the word mule in this context before it's current new use as a smear against a man's husband.

You of course know that,
I know that, and everyone reading this knows that, but it nonetheless used by the nastiest to make it appear as if Glenn Greenwald thinks of his partner as a disposable beast of burden often sacrificed in the dirty world of narcotics trafficking, while at the same time implying the printing of information and the collaboration of journalists and couriers to accomplish such journalism is somehow the equivalent of drug smuggling.

No one but you nasty little farts ever use that term to describe a courier.
Stop feigning such overwhelming ignorance or I just might believe what you feign is true.

[hack89]

45. Google the phrase "money mule". It will be an education. nt

[Dragonfli]

49. So,... in addition to drugs... Miranda was likely also a smuggler of cash to be laundered for

the drug dealers?

Does he moonlight for HSBC while not being subservient to the drug traffickers?

Your use of language is indeed bringing many things to light regarding these deplorable men and their immoral (unnatural) ways.
What convictions will we be looking at now that the smear has revealed such deplorable character flaws?

[hack89]

51. Mule is a generic term in the context of smuggling - stop being obtuse

A mule or courier is someone who smuggles something with them (as opposed to sending by mail, etc.) across a national border, including bringing into and out of an international plane, especially a small amount, transported for a smuggling organization. The organizers employ mules to reduce the risk of getting caught themselves. Methods of smuggling include hiding the goods in a vehicle, luggage or clothes, strapping them to one's body, or using the body as a container. Sometimes the goods are hidden in the bag or vehicle of an innocent person, who does not know about this, for the purpose of retrieving the goods elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_%28smuggling%29

The fact that you have only heard the phrase in the context of drug smuggling simply means there are gaps in your knowledge. Nothing to be ashamed of but doubling down on your ignorance does you no good.

[Dragonfli]

57. Your entire premise is that journalism is a crime and the act of using a courier to transport

information is also a crime and yet no one was arrested and Journalism is still not listed as the crime you assume it is.

One does not "smuggle" a story and the information unearthed by a journalists is not "contraband".
Did it ever occur to you that it is not against the law to print the truth once exposed? Do you feel the NYT were mules for ellsberg and should have been detained as terrorists?

I find such thinking shocking, but not surprising coming from one that thinks truth is a criminal enterprise to be conflated with smuggling drugs.

It is rather unAmerican, but centrists always have been more multinational corporate and less nationalistic so your views should not surprise me.

[hack89]

58. My only premise is that mule applies to all smuggling, not just drugs.

my only point.

[Dragonfli]

70. One does not "smuggle" what is legal, so no, the premise was far broader and your use of words like

smuggler and mule where deliberate and meant to imply criminal activity where none existed.

There is a reason no one was arrested, it was because no law was broken.

[hack89]

87. ok nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. You do realize the word for the guy that sneaks people across the border is called Coyote right?

It's just a term to describe them....

[Dragonfli]

59. Yes, and because no one is calling Miranda a Coyote, I assume even those that think him a drug mule

realize he is/was not sneaking people across the border.

When if they make that claim as well I will point out that absurdity as well don't worry.

[MADem]

77. That's what I thought, too. nt

[MADem]

53. The art was not stolen, it was not classified property of the US government either.

Your analogy sucks.

The material Miranda was hauling was not his, it was not his partner's, it was received from Poitras via Snowden, who stole it.

Greenwald told the NYT that Miranda was carrying Snowden's "trove" (I know there are some juveniles who get giddily gleeful over that word, for reasons known only to them).

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/world/europe/britain-detains-partner-of-reporter-tied-to-leaks.html?_r=0

Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald’s investigation into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald. Those documents, which were stored on encrypted thumb drives, were confiscated by airport security, Mr. Greenwald said. All of the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Mr. Snowden. The British authorities seized all of his electronic media — including video games, DVDs and data storage devices — and did not return them, Mr. Greenwald said.

[Dragonfli]

67. Tell me, should the NYT have been prosecuted as a "mule" for receiving stolen "Pentagon Papers"?

It appears you do not understand why they were not and never should have been. It was the case that proved journalism should not be criminalized.

Do you disagree with the way that worked out for the NYT and journalism back then? Should we call for their detention as well now that you have learned how evil printing information truly is in light of recent events?

I disagree with your belief, I feel journalism must not be criminalized, that the NYT should not have been prosecuted then and similar journalistic works should not be criminalized now.

Feel free to call for the conviction of what you feel are criminal journalists trafficking in stolen information, maybe there are still some mules at the NYT still alive and can face prosecution for espionage and of course there is the Guardian and other papers that Snowden has released incriminating information about law breakers in the government to. You may be on the cutting edge of a brave new world without the dangers of a free press threatening dishonest politicians.

But know this, I will continue to disagree with you, and continue to advocate for a free press that has the power to make public the crimes of our own or any other government, we will never be allies I am afraid.

[MADem]

71. They didn't carry the papers anywhere, and at the time they received them, there

was no law about receiving classified materials.

Why are you comparing a Brazilian domestic partner with a newspaper that has been in business since 1851?

And you expect me to take you seriously when you convolute in that fashion?

And what's with the dramatic "But know this?"

Here's a "but know this" for you--when you talk nonsense, I will point it out.

Why do you think it's "OK" for people that you happen to like to ignore the rule of law? You want Bush and Cheney frog marched, and you want Greenwald and Snowden lionized.

You've either got to be "for" rule of law, or "agin'" it. If you favor selective enforcement, you're a hypocrite.

[Dragonfli]

78. Read up on the Pentagon Papers, you suffer from poor education if you do not know how

important that case was to journalism and the precedents that were set.

There were your kindred spirits back then as well that tried to make the information illegal and tried to make the publication of the facts criminal. It was settled back then, and I chose a side opposite yours during that time and I have not changed.

You do not appear to be aware of what was settled back then and why and do not appear to even understand that you are attempting to re-litigate the issue now in your hatred for one journalist.

I made the mistake of thinking you knew this history and apologize for the confusion my assumptions caused you.


Read up on it, then we can have the conversation again only this time from a more mutually informed place.

[MADem]

82. You keep going on about "read up"--I got news for you, I "read up" on it while it was happening.

I actually paid full price for the NYT to "read up" on it.

The one who isn't fully "informed" here isn't me.

What hubris!

[Babel_17]

86. Huh, nice coincidence

I was trying to make the same point but you did it earlier and better.

[Luminous Animal]

79. Mr Greenwald did not say…

Notice that all the sentences were attributed to Greenwald except this one:

"All of the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Mr. Snowden."

[MADem]

81. Every time a paper states an error of fact about Greenwald, he takes to Twitter to blast them.

He's not trying to correct this paragraph, which cites "Mr. Greenwald" THREE TIMES, at all.

I tell you what--you come up with proof that Greenwald objects to that particular sentence, that he denies it, as he quite vigorously denied the Reuters characterizations about his desire for "revenge" the other day, and I'll believe you.

If you can't do that, I won't believe you, and I'll believe that the NYT correctly, properly, and with the full consent of Glenn Greenwald (and the desire to avoid a run-on sentence), attributed the entire contents of that paragraph to "Mr. Greenwald."

[Luminous Animal]

96. He did deny it via twitter.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time educating you:

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/369591413438033920

[MADem]

104. That falls a bit short of a denial--that sounds like a refusal to confirm, but NOT a denial.

Which suggests to me that he's talked to a lawyer. No wonder it took him so long to straighten that out!

A denial would be "He was NOT CARRYING DOCUMENTS from Snowden's "trove"/He was not carrying documents Snowden stole/took from NSA" but he didn't say that. Here's exactly what he said, from your link, with the questions that others asked..... that he didn't answer:

User Actions
Following

Glenn GreenwaldVerified account
‏@ggreenwald
@MichaelKelleyBI @AntDeRosa The NYT got that wrong - I never told them what he was carrying - only that our work was about Snowden/NSA
Reply Retweet Favorite More
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RETWEETS
3
FAVORITES John AlbietzTPSpacedOutmodelmotionEugenie BlasingameKaren MelchiorVito AngioneRandeep RameshMichael Kelleyfrancisca skoknic
3:17 AM - 20 Aug 13
Tweet text
Reply to @ggreenwald @MichaelKelleyBI @AntDeRosa
Image will appear as a link
Michael Kelley ‏@MichaelKelleyBI 20 Aug
@ggreenwald @AntDeRosa So info involved NSA work, which involves NSA docs or reporting on them. But no classified info necessarily therein?
Details Reply Retweet Favorite More
Ryan Evans ‏@EvansRyan202 20 Aug
.@ggreenwald was your partner carrying classified material?
Details
Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch 20 Aug
@EvansRyan202 @ggreenwald was there an answer to that, Ryan?
Details
Ryan Evans ‏@EvansRyan202 23h
@LouiseMensch if there was, i didnt see it @ggreenwald
Details

So....he's still leaving that ambiguous. I guess he doesn't want to lie, in case the UK can crack his code, but he doesn't want to say, and thus incriminate himself.

Ah, what a conundrum!!!! But, like I said, not quite a denial!

[morningfog]

20. So? Is that terrorism? Get a fucking warrant.

[cthulu2016]

24. Pretty good. Three mistruths in one short sentence

[JaneyVee]

25. I didn't use quotation marks, I paraphrased.

[backscatter712]

47. Classic troll thread-pounce. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

74. Actually, Greenwald flat out denies that Miranda was carrying Snowden docs.

[MADem]

91. Source? Citation? This we'll need to see. nt

[MADem]

106. No he doesn't--and the link you provided upthread is not a denial.

You need to stop shopping that mischaracterization. It's just not accurate, and anyone who reads what he said can see that.

He doesn't say "Miranda was NOT carrying NSA docs." Such an easy thing to say, too. Six short words.

Instead, he weasels, obfuscates--he clearly doesn't want to admit--but he doesn't deny. He also doesn't answer the people looking for a clarification.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/369591413438033920

User Actions
Following

Glenn GreenwaldVerified account
‏@ggreenwald
@MichaelKelleyBI @AntDeRosa The NYT got that wrong - I never told them what he was carrying - only that our work was about Snowden/NSA
Reply Retweet Favorite More
10
RETWEETS
3
FAVORITES John AlbietzTPSpacedOutmodelmotionEugenie BlasingameKaren MelchiorVito AngioneRandeep RameshMichael Kelleyfrancisca skoknic
3:17 AM - 20 Aug 13
Tweet text
Reply to @ggreenwald @MichaelKelleyBI @AntDeRosa
Image will appear as a link
Michael Kelley ‏@MichaelKelleyBI 20 Aug
@ggreenwald @AntDeRosa So info involved NSA work, which involves NSA docs or reporting on them. But no classified info necessarily therein?
Details Reply Retweet Favorite More
Ryan Evans ‏@EvansRyan202 20 Aug
.@ggreenwald was your partner carrying classified material?
Details
Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch 20 Aug
@EvansRyan202 @ggreenwald was there an answer to that, Ryan?
Details
Ryan Evans ‏@EvansRyan202 23h
@LouiseMensch if there was, i didnt see it @ggreenwald
Details

[Luminous Animal]

113. "The NYT got that wrong" And what did they get wrong?

The NY Times was wrong when they said Miranda was carrying Snowden documents. How "clever" of you to omit that.

So here is the exchange:

Michael Kelley ‏@MichaelKelleyBI 19 Aug
@AntDeRosa Nevertheless, @ggreenwald told NYT that the documents came from the Snowden stash pic.twitter.com/r44PDmHpRd

Greenwald replies: The NYT got that wrong - I never told them what he was carrying - only that our work was about Snowden/NSA

Get it. They got it wrong. It is a very simple and straight forward denial of what Miranda was carrying.

The full exchange:

Anthony De Rosa ‏@AntDeRosa 19 Aug
If @ggreenwald's partner actually had any documents of note, I highly doubt the most effective means of moving them would be by sneakernet



Michael Kelley ‏@MichaelKelleyBI 19 Aug
@AntDeRosa Nevertheless, @ggreenwald told NYT that the documents came from the Snowden stash pic.twitter.com/r44PDmHpRd

Anthony De Rosa ‏@AntDeRosa 19 Aug
@MichaelKelleyBI @ggreenwald yes we know, but seems implausible that this was a courier mission, too obvious

Michael Kelley ‏@MichaelKelleyBI 19 Aug
@AntDeRosa So that would imply that @ggreenwald wasn't telling the truth to NYT? And Miranda was simply visiting Poitras for a week?

Anthony De Rosa ‏@AntDeRosa 19 Aug
@MichaelKelleyBI @ggreenwald no I believe it, but he didn't say they were documents we hadn't seen already

Michael Kelley ‏@MichaelKelleyBI 19 Aug
@AntDeRosa @ggreenwald "He was on his way back from Berlin, where he was ferrying materials" Swapping only classified docs public has seen?

Glenn Greenwald @ggreenwald
@MichaelKelleyBI @AntDeRosa The NYT got that wrong - I never told them what he was carrying - only that our work was about Snowden/NSA

[MADem]

119. Sorry, no sale--the salient portion is this:

I never told them what he was carrying

People aren't asking him if the NYT "got that wrong." They want to know what the hell he was carrying and they wanted CLARIFICATION of that sentence--which they did not get.

Why? He refuses to answer them.

How hard it is it to say "The NYT got that wrong--he was NOT carrying NSA docs."...?

Answer: Not hard at all. Fewer letters and clearer than that mushmouth blah he put out.

You don't know what Miranda was carrying. He didn't answer the question. When people avoid a direct answer, it's worse than silence.

He's no fool--he knows the basics of journalism, who-what-when-where-why. And he didn't clarify.

A normal person would have to wonder why that was?

[Babel_17]

120. Greenwald has no obligation to inform the New York Times of what Poitras might have sent him

Arguably, Greenwald owes it to Poitras to not characterize what gets exchanged between them. It's their mutual journalistic business.

Greenwald is of course free to point out an objective inaccuracy in The New York Times story. Proper editing by them should have caught it, if Greenwald is to be believed.

If I was getting a letter from a woman and The New York Times said I "admitted" she wrote about a torrid affair I was having with her I'd feel free to say I never talked to them about the contents of the letter, if that was the case.

I wouldn't feel free to discuss the contents of the letter. Maybe it is a love letter, maybe we're discussing some used books I sold her.

The argument that I owe anyone an explanation hasn't been made. In Greenwald's case, as a journalist he owes it to his profession, and Poitras, to not babble about his business just because people are curious. Hopefully that point doesn't get missed by people reporting on this story.

[Little Star]

105. That is a crock of shit! He was carrying Poitras's Journalistic material when the detained him....

And I find your derogatory word describing Miranda as a mule contemptible, just plain mean and nasty.

You Greenwald haters need to get your facts right.

Snowden may have stolen documents but when the documents were turned over to journalists it then became journalistic work product. Greenwald, Poitras and other journo's were just doing their job. Jesus H Christ.

[MNBrewer]

112. No, he didn't

But nice racial slur...

[Matariki]

118. Yeah. I'm sure he called his husband a 'mule'.

And if 'stolen info' you mean the evidence that the NSA is breaking the law.

Shame on you.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. And it certainly would have nothing to do with our government.

I mean it is not like there is some sort of special relationship or anything.

That OP didn't even bother with a blue link. It was a pathetic effort. They are luffing and there is no wind in sight.

[one_voice]

3. Who is Mr. Pitt?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. William Pitt. Long time DU poster. Wrote a book exposing the fraudulent intel used to justify Iraq.

[one_voice]

9. Oh, D'oh...

[uponit7771]

4. FUCK YES! I wouldnt care if pits or whomever was far left either. Break the law like Snowden et al

...have done then go to jail dammit.

They had other means to get heard and the "America's justice system is corrupt therefor I ran" is NOT extended to EVERY SINGLE person of color by Snowden supporters

[LondonReign2]

60. Bravo your law and order stance!

Can you point me to your posts calling for Clapper to go to jail for breaking the law?

[Whisp]

6. how silly. n/t

[trumad]

7. fuck yeah it would be ok...

A couple less Patriot fans.

He's already indoctrinating his new born.

[1awake]

10. lol... I mean if he was a Steeler fan that would be different! n/t

Joking of course.

[KamaAina]

88. Turns out the baby's mom is a Steelers fan.

Don't give up hope.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

11. At least he's not a Jets fan.

[Blue_Tires]

48. Couple less bruins (aka SCUM) fans to worry about, too

In fact I might just leave a message at 866-347-2423 just so the DHS is *slightly* more interested in him than they'd normally be...

[msanthrope]

94. You won the thread. nt

[burnodo]

8. Given his posts, he (and those associated with him) should be considered a possible terrorist

based on many arguments I've heard here

[Mnemosyne]

12. What is wrong with you? nt

[burnodo]

13. Oh, all kinds of things

Could you be more specific??

[Mnemosyne]

14. Perhaps I missed the sarcasm icon in your post. Care to expound on your post? Why would you imply

such a thing about Will? I am baffled, so obviously I missed your sarcasm.

[burnodo]

15. I based my statement on arguments made by others

In snark and sarcasm so I guess I should have used that tag

[Mnemosyne]

16. I must be too tired, usually catch the snark. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. SNARK-NADO!

[Mnemosyne]

21. A terrifying thought!

[Dr. Strange]

31. Pffth!

[Egalitarian Thug]

32. Think you're tired? I thought it was Brad and couldn't figure out why we had

to lock him and Angelina up. I heard World War Z wasn't that bad...

[DevonRex]

17. Would Mr. Pitt have given his spouse TS/SCI information

to deliver to Germany on his UK company's dime? With instructions to pick up TS/SCI information in Germany to bring back, including possibly the names of UKUSA covert operatives and station chiefs and locations of CIA stations around the world?

Hell no. Will Pitt would never put his family in danger. Ever. So the situation would not arise.

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. Much less to Snowden! It's not as if that was a surprise!

he put him or allowed him into harms way...no other way to describe the situation

[Warren DeMontague]

22. The cognitive dissonance here

is head-spinning lately.

[snappyturtle]

33. Yes! Thinking that this morning! It's everywhere.

I guess it's presence is a sign that the propaganda isn't of
good quality.....yet. Of course, making us fearful may work.....
what a mess.

[earthside]

28. It is demeaning.

There are people so intent upon justifying the secret U.S. national government spying on Americans that they will go to the lengths of characterizing David Miranda as some kind of servile, abused wife totally under the domination of Mr. Greenwald.

I thought maybe we had progressed further along than those kinds of old fashioned stereotypes.
Even 'partners' in a relationship can be self-determining, independent individuals.

I am frankly astounded at the ability of so many liberals and progressives to be such knee-jerk reactionaries in the face of these significant revelations of the reach of the national security state. And also disappointed that most of this reaction is only for the purpose of propping-up the notion that Pres. Obama can do no wrong.

[snappyturtle]

34. ^^^^^^^1,000! nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

35. "I thought maybe we had progressed further along than those kinds of old fashioned stereotypes."

Where on earth did you ever get that idea?

Even marriage equality was a go along with a Bidenism to get Social Security off the front page.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. So you admit...its not about Greenwald, its not about Snowden...its about Miranda!

So now Miranda (of his own free will as you all believe) has involved himself in the Greenwald/Snowden crimes? If they go down...he goes down with them? Is that what you are suggesting. Shouldn't Greenwald have tried to stop him from insinuating himself into HIS problem? After all...Greenwald SAID previously to the event that that is what Miranda was doing...it could even be said that he set him UP!

[earthside]

102. Apparently you've never had a strong partner ...

... in a personal or business relationship.

Most intelligent people I know really do make their own decisions -- even when they are members of a partnership.

The best presumption is to give Mr. Miranda some credit for being a unique, strong individual.
Instead, you choose to portray him as a subservient little puppet of Glen Greenwald.

[VanillaRhapsody]

108. ok so you agree...now Miranda has made himself complicit and deserves whatever he gets!

Glad to hear that...

I am asking how YOU want him portrayed instead. By your assessment he is now an official accessory to their crimes.

[earthside]

111. What crimes?

Truth is now a crime, eh?

Well, yeah, maybe it is in the total information awareness national security state, Version Obama 1.0

[VanillaRhapsody]

115. So far Snowden has been charged with crimes has he not?

our laws against crimes are not decided by individuals like yourself.

[Little Star]

114. Greenwald has not committed any crimes!!!

Jesus H Christ almighty!

[Marr]

36. Of course not.

Bush was a Republican.

See? Totally different.

[treestar]

37. Why is DU getting so dumb?

The guy was involved. He was not just a spouse.

FCOL. How dumb will this get? If Bonnie is arrested with Clyde, is that an outrage?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

85. $200 to the charity of your choice if you can prove your statement

And if you can't, then you write an OP apologizing for being untruthful.

Are you prepared to document your accusation that Miranda is involved, is complicit?

[treestar]

122. He had some of the documents.

He's part of the whole whatever they are doing. Admit it, he was not stopped just for his relationship with Glenn. He was stopped for having the documents.

[MADem]

93. Of course he was involved--his plane tickets were paid for by the Guardian.

He went to Berlin to give Poitras documents and pick up document that Snowden had given her.
He was not in Berlin on a summer vacation. He was acting as a pick-up-and-delivery man. He was given stuff, and he carried it to its destination.

He acknowledged all this, quite readily, in his Anderson Cooper interview.

Miranda had gone to Germany to pick up files from Greenwald’s investigative partner Laura Poitras and bring them back to their home in Brazil. Materials he was carrying, including a laptop and other drives, were confiscated from him, but he claimed not to know if they contained classified materials.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-greenwald-and-partner-speak-out-journalism-is-not-a-crime-and-its-not-terrorism/

[Capt. Obvious]

38. Well, is he a mule?

[Dragonfli]

43. No, he was not charged with carrying drugs within his body. At least such was not reported...

[backscatter712]

50. Good point. We see the homophobic undercurrents of the Miranda-mule talking points.

When someone uses the word mule, and they're not talking about a horse-donkey hybrid, the imagery that word conjures is the stereotyped image of a Latino drug smuggler with a condom full of cocaine shoved up his rear.

You can always rely on the authoritarians to keep their talking points classy!

[MADem]

65. Errrr....that's not how it's done.

They're swallowed, not shoved.

Didn't you see the film María llena eres de gracia?

And you're a little dated with your hackneyed stereotypes, too. The best and most popular mules are caucasian women on holiday, or any gringos--not South Americans.

Examples:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03/citizen-smugglers/

Drug Cartel Mules Are American as Apple Pie, Border Patrol Data Shows


http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2013/0821/British-women-face-drug-mule-charges-in-Peru
British women face 'drug mule' charges in Peru


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/30/18589533-experts-say-drug-mules-are-easy-to-find-hard-to-catch?lite

"The first time, you're terrified. You almost sleepwalk through it," said Chris Heifner, who wrote a memoir called "Mule" about a six-month stint as a Texas-based courier. "Then it becomes routine to the point where you just laugh at it."

http://news.msn.com/us/student-says-he-was-unwitting-drug-mule-sues-ford

Student says he was unwitting drug mule, sues Ford


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396373/Drugs-mule-hope-British-grandmother-Lindsay-Sandiford-saved-swap.html

New hope for 'drugs mule' grandmother facing execution by firing squad in Indonesia as Britain enters talks over possible prisoner swap


Here's another type of "mule" that's quite popular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_mule


So, your whine about "Latino drug smugglers" says more about YOU and YOUR prejudices than you might realize, there, "amigo"...you just might want to quit before you really put your foot in it.

[Autumn]

62. That is such a disgusting term, they seem to be enjoying the usage of it.

He carried nothing inside his body and any report I have heard about someone being a mule that is what they have done. IMO they are using it as a homophobic smear because they can get away with it.

[Dragonfli]

73. It is obvious, the same posters using this used the effeminate GiGi for as much mileage as they

could before several DUers both straight and gay pestered them to stop. They enjoy pushing the envelope and then basically saying, "you can't PROVE I am a homophobe so here's another raspberry in your eye".

[deurbano]

68. Courier for a journalist employed by the newspaper that paid the courier's expenses.

[MADem]

110. Greenwald called him an "in between" to Anderson Cooper.

I think he meant "go between" but who knows. He was a carrier of documents, that's for certain, and he claimed to Anderson Cooper that he didn't know what was in the documents.

[KittyWampus]

39. If Will had given his spouse stolen, classified documents whilst she was traveling internationally

and she visited the person who helped stole those classified documents on her trip, I fully expect that she would be detained in the airport and her personal articles searched.

Is it ok?

That isdebatable. Especially when the law APPARENTLY used to detain the spouse is a Terrorism Act.

But considering how any government on earth operates, it's totally to be expected said spouse would be detained.

I don't understand why the Terrorism Act was invoked by the UK… if it was or will be.

I would think their law enforcement would have just cause for detention and searching in an Airport without using the Terrorism Act.

[Little Star]

116. Once those stolen Documents that whistle blower Snowden turned over to...

journalists they became the work product for the journalists.

David Miranda was carrying legal work product for Greenwald & Poitras. He was not carrying stolen documents. He had every right to freely do so without being held for 9 hours and intimidated.

What is so god-damn hard to understand about that?

It is legal for Greenwald to have Snowden's stolen documents or he would be charged with something. He has not. Because it is legal for a journalist to have those documents.

What the hell is wrong with you Greenwald haters? You could at least try and grasp the fact Greenwald has done NOTHING illegal.

These kind of posts are looking foolish.

[Liberal Veteran]

63. They had to detain Mr. Pitt's family to ensure he would go looking for the zombie virus cure.

Right?

[msanthrope]

97. They should have been detained for Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Horrible movie. nt