Well, the latest debunking is being smeared...

[Archae]

I just read the Michael Hastings thread, and like I had originally said, the guy was driving way too fast, (I said he was probably drunk, turns out he was on meth,) and he smacked into a tree.

The tinfoil-hatters are still *TOTALLY* convinced of their own conspiracy theories, of course.

And this isn't the only one.

"Vaccines cause autism!"
"The Boston Bombers were set up by the CIA/FBI/whoever!"
"GMO's are poison!"
"Arafat and Chavez were poisoned!"
"JFK was shot from a flying saucer!"

And so on...

As I said in a post months ago, why do we need (or want) conspiracies?

Because reality is too random.
Shit happens.

And when it does, the logical answers are boring.
Conspiracies are more fun.

[Scootaloo]

1. But JFK WAS shot by a flying saucer

What the fuck are you on about?

The worst thing about "conspiracy theorists" i that there really ARE conspiracis going on. Thingsworth investigating and exposing... but conspiracy theorists almost always want the wild, unbelievable, exotic stuff rather than the mundane shit that's really going on. This is why they're conspiracy theorists and not journalists.

[Cali_Democrat]

2. I was called an authoritarian Stasi for brushing off the conspiracy theorists

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll say the government fucked with the toxicology results.

[Archae]

3. Of course! Alex Jones says so!

Not to mention WND, George Noory, Sean Hannity, birthers, "Christian" persecutionists, anti-Muslim hysteria, and so on.

Every weekday there are new ones from the right-wing here:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/rww-blog-posts

[freshwest]

11. 'Holy Guacamole!' says me while munching on GMO-free organic yellow corn chips. It's all good!

But honestly, that blog was frightening. Fischer and his ravings fuel the RWNJs, Libertarians and Infowarriors. Insane, but there it is.

As Triana and others point out, this is Bircher stuff. I grew up hearing this drekt over half a century ago and we mistakenly thought it had been overcome.

As far as what RWW says about Beck and cycles, it would be one continuous cycle, never stopping.

Just think, they all vote!

[progressoid]

4. I'm not siding with CTers but

from the article I read, he only had traces of pot and amphetamines which the coroner said did not contribute to the crash.

I have no idea what caused the crash, but it seem drugs may not have been the culprit.

[Archae]

6. I've known addicts who days after doing meth were still acting strange.

Meth doesn't just wear off in a couple hours, for some people.
It can linger, causing erratic behavior.

The guy drove too fast, and hit a tree. Simple.

[cui bono]

5. The amount of meth detected was “unlikely to have an intoxicative effect

at the time of the accident.”

A toxicology screen revealed “a small amount of amphetamine” in Hastings’s blood, which was “consistent with possible intake of methamphetamine many hours before death." However, the amount detected was “unlikely to have an intoxicative effect at the time of the accident.”

So he wasn't drunk and he wasn't "on meth" either. He showed intake of marijuana about 4 hours earlier.

So you might want to add:

"Hastings was on meth!"

to your list of quotes in the OP.

Also, conspiracy doesn't mean "not true" as you seem to think it does by the way you wrote your OP. Many conspiracy theories are factual and actually happening/did happen. Sometimes the truth takes some time to come out so people poke fun at CTs because it's more fun than allowing themselves to think the unthinkable, which sometimes just happens to be reality.

[MADem]

8. He had major mental health issues.

This is what we know:

The crash occurred around the time of the anniversary of the death of the "love of his life"--the woman he wrote the book about.

His brothers were standing by to bigfoot his ass into rehab, and he didn't wanna go.

He'd been back on the shit for about a month after a fourteen year journey on the wagon.

He had a highly addictive personality.


Add all that to his documented anxiety, depression and PTSD, and it's not too far a leap--just theory here, but not "conspiracy" theory--that the guy MAY have been suicidal...just a bit.

The difference between "theories" and "conspiracy theories" is usually this--theories use the available facts to come to a possible conclusion that is logical; conspiracy theories use the available facts to craft fantastical stories that require one's credulity to stretch like lycra in order to believe the horseshit being shoveled.

[cui bono]

22. I don't know if he was suicidal or not, but several articles have said that drugs did not play

a part in his accident. The OP makes it sound like that is the reason he crashed.

I disagree with your take on conspiracy theories. Taking out the work conspiracy doesn't make anything more true or realistic. The conspiracy part means just that, a conspiracy is at play. There is no reason to think that is "fantastical". It happens all the time, one just need connect the dots in most instances. Unfortunately, finding cold, hard evidence is sometimes difficult, understandably.

[MADem]

29. In the context of this discussion board, a "conspiracy theory" consists of

woo woo stuff. It's not an A plus B equals C type of exercise. It's Castro and the Illuminati conspired with the "PTB" and Bigfoot to hire someone to control that guy's car with a remote control and drive him into a tree--the kind of thing that, when you hear someone rambling on about it in the subway in pee-encrusted trousers, causes you to move away out of concern for your personal safety. By "fantastical" I am talking about the kind of convoluted stories that 99 out of 100 people would outright roll their eyes at.


As others have remarked here who have a better understanding of "meth" than I do, the stuff can apparently wreak havoc on the brain that lasts well past the time that the stuff is active in one's system. There is a residual effect that won't necessarily marry with the toxicology.


I do not think it is unreasonable to wonder if this man, coming up on the anniversary of the death of the "love of his life," (the woman he wrote the book about), suffering from PTSD as a consequence of his wartime experience, starting out in a brand new job on a different coast and no doubt expected to produce, having recently fallen off the wagon after a fourteen year period of sobriety, being pressured by his brothers--who had just come into town to push him to enter rehab (those five distinct items are not "speculation"--those are facts) might have reacted to those stressors in an unhealthy--i.e. suicidal--way. There's no note, so there's no proof of that--but that doesn''t mean that wasn't his state of mind.

That theory will remain a mystery, unless his relatives find a note amongst his personal effects. If he had life insurance, perhaps he didn't want to leave his wife in the lurch by writing a note if the policy had a "no suicide" clause. That too, is speculation, but it doesn't involve martians or death rays that can be avoided with tin foil hats.

[cui bono]

40. Well again, I disagree with you regarding the nature and validity of CTs so....

whether or not there is more to this story, I don't know. I do know the motive, capability and suspicious timing is there. That being said, there's also too much personal baggage of Hastings' to rule out him causing his own demise.

Either way, it's a shame we lost such a bold investigative reporter.

[Democracyinkind]

24. I don't think that the differences you list are stringent.

What you wrote may very well be true as far as fantastical CT are involved. Many are not, though.

What you just tried to do with your post is something that philosophers have been trying to say for ages, never coming up with a satisfying answer. There is no prima facie argument against conspiracies per se.

If such a thing is found, it would be the hot new thing in Philosophy. I won't hold my breath.

Which is not to say that there aren't tons of specific refutations for specific CT, be they fantastical or not.

[Aerows]

32. I'm probably going to get slammed for saying this

but I pretty much think that anyone who does meth is signing their own death warrant. Maybe there was foul play in Hastings' death, but doing meth certainly isn't going to ensure longevity, that's for damn sure.

[MADem]

34. No slam from me.

And I think we'd have to suspend all judgment to think that it's normal for a guy to be zipping down the road in the early morning hours, no food in his stomach, trace drugs, after flying in from the east coast the previous day, and having two brothers waiting back at his apartment complex breathing down his neck to get him to rehab (and he said, no, no, no, perhaps?) and not wonder if the guy was stressed, exhausted, coming down, asleep at the wheel...?

If the (place tin foil covered sieve upon head) "PTB" really wanted to get him, ( for the irony impaired ) there are much easier ways. Hell, sneak into his house and OD him--he already had a drug history, and within hours of his death people who said they knew him were opining that it had something to do with his "falling off the wagon."

[Aerows]

39. You are going to die sooner than later on that

and yes, OD-ing him would have been far easier. I think you have it right, MADem.

[delrem]

7. You seem self-satisfied enough. So what's your problem?

[jimlup]

9. Your post contains too standard arguments which are both logical falacies

The first is the gold standard of poor argumentation - the ad hominem. The second is the false generalization. That is to say that if one "conspiracy theory" is shown to be false then they all must be.

[Berlum]

28. + 1,000

As usual.

[MotherPetrie]

10. Talk about protesting too much. Your extreme oppostion to anything other than the official version

Is just the opposite side of the coin. You aren't interested in the truth, just what the authorities say is the truth.

[Archae]

13. Rather than the "authorities are always wrong?"

Vaccines DO cause autism?

The World Trade Center fell down from "nano-thermite?"

Tim McVeigh was a patsy for the CIA who used a nuke in Oklahoma City?

[MotherPetrie]

17. The operative term isn't "wrong," IMO. It is "deliberately full of shit."

[Little Milly]

18. Your bare opinion becomes the truth?

Do you have any evidence to support your opinion?

[Midnight Writer]

12. Yes, those conspiracy theories are crazy

some of the craziest:

The CIA facilitated the return of the Shah of Iran to power

LBJ exaggerated the Gulf of Tonkin attack on the Maddox to justify escalating the Viet Nam War

The Nixon administration secretly sending US forces into Laos, Cambodia and Thailand

The FBI bugged the phones and hotel rooms of Martin Luther King

The FBI had a program called COINTEL to infiltrate anti-war groups during the Viet Nam war

Nixon's re-election team bugged and burglarized the Democratic headquarters in the Watergate Hotel

The Reagan administration sold US arms to Iran and used the proceeds to fund revolutionary forces in Central America

The Reagan administration funded a "School for Americas" at FT Benning, GA to train Central American forces in guerilla and terror tactics

The Reagan administration trained "Freedom Fighters" in Afghanistan to fight Soviet invaders, and that those "Freedom Fighters" evolved into Al Queda and the Taliban

The GWBush administration exaggerated the evidence of WMD's to justify the invasion of Iraq

The NSA is gathering information and tracking the phone calls of American citizens without warrants

The US used torture and rendition against suspected terrorists.

Who in the sane world would believe this hogwash?

[Why Syzygy]

19. "Conspiracy Theory" ..

was created specifically for the JFK assassination. It stuck even better than hoped.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/jfk-assassination-marked-the-end-of-the-american-republic/5346419

.... "In January 1967, shortly after Jim Garrison in New Orleans had started his prosecution of the CIA backgrounds of the murder, the CIA published a memo to all its stations, suggesting the use of the term “conspiracy theorists” for everyone criticizing the Warren Report findings. Until then the press and the public mostly used the term “assassination theories” when it came to alternative views of the “lone nut” Lee Harvey Oswald. But with this memo this changed and very soon “conspiracy theories” became what it is until today: a term to smear, denounce and defame anyone who dares to speak about any crime committed by the state, military or intelligence services. Before Edward Snowden anyone claiming a kind of total surveillance of internet and phone traffic would have been named a conspiracy nut; today everyone knows better." ...

Up until a few months ago, I was called CT for KNOWING that the NSA was surveilling American citizens. I get information from a wide variety of sources because it's imperative if one hopes to sort through and try to determine if the main street explanation is true or not. Most people just want to hear something that makes them feel 'safer'. Better. Righter. Anything else is disregarded because to consider the facts is too threatening to their ego. Ego wants everything to be fine so it will be safe. Another way to say it is, MOST people have hidden from themselves the unresolved daddy complex within their own souls. Daddy makes it all okay.

[blackspade]

14. Actually you are incorrect.

According to the toxicology report, he had trace amounts of amphetamines and MJ in is blood. Neither of which were a factor in the crash.
He was not intoxicated at the time of the crash.
Also, the 'meth' the M$M is peddling is the active ingredient in Adoral, a prescription med that he has been know to take.

So no, the 'debunking' is not being smeared.

[JDPriestly]

15. Conspiracies are much more creative, and every once in a while they are right.

Every once in a while. I love conspiracy theories because they show how people are trying to understand the strange things that happen -- which are, every once in a while, the result of a conspiracy.

But most of all, conspiracies reflect our collective wishing, figuring out, our collective subconscious at work. Conspiracies are useful for understanding the psyche of a society.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. If one wants to talk categorically about "conspiracy theories", logic dictates 3 possibilities.

1) ALL conspiracy theories are true.

2) ALL conspiracy theories are total bullshit.

3) Some conspiracy theories are true, and some are total bullshit.


I leave it to the gentle reader to decide which of these choices is probably the most logically sound.

[Why Syzygy]

20. Good explanation...

I resent being termed a "CT" because it mocks curiosity, investigative skill and questions that are always legitimate. The person doing the labeling is clearly not as interested in the truth as are those who are smeared by the ad hominem. Since when is it logical to mock 'theories'? Doesn't speak well of the mocker's scientific/logic ability.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of really goofy conspiracy theories out there, and I do think

that the phenomenon is indicative- at times- of more about the way our brains try to organize and deal with the jumbled chaotic torrent of information that comprises reality, than actual "real" reality itself.

That said, it's a fairly objective historical fact that at times people have conspired to do shit, hence some conspiracy theories are correct.

[Raine]

21. So? We aren't repugs here, people can think and believe what

they want.

[Democracyinkind]

25. You seem rather lost on your operating theories.

As stated elsewhere, your criteria for distuingishing CT from non-CT doesn't seem to hold up... Might I suggest this as interesting reading?

http://books.google.ch/books/about/Conspiracy_Theories.html?id=SoyalAxDItYC&redir_esc=y

[PowerToThePeople]

26. His story is awful, the state can kill in many ways.

The state can kill someone in many ways. People that really care could be harmed greatly by deep depression caused by the acts of our country in our name. These people could be perfectly functioning people in a halfway just society, but are driven to near madness because of living in the reality we face today. Substance abuse is one method people use to "cope."

[1monster]

27. Trace amounts of amphetamines and marijuana taken many hours before the crash and

had nothing to do with the crash. Hastings was known to take Aderall, a prescription drug used to treat ADD and ADHD, which contains amphetamines.

I do not know what happened in the Hastings crash. I have no theroires one way or another. But when the word goes out to paint the man as a druggie high as a kite at the time of the accident when that is patently not ture, and the coroner's report explicitly states that the trace amounts of amphetamines and marijuana had nothing to do with the crash, I have to wonder why...

Front page at the top:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017139940

[geek tragedy]

30. His family was planning an intervention. nt

[1monster]

31. Link, please?

[msanthrope]

35. Here you go...

Journalist Michael Hastings’ family was about to stage an intervention to try to get the reporter into “detox” on the same day his Mercedes burst into flames after hitting a tree, Los Angeles coroner’s officials said Tuesday.


SNIP

An unidentified relative told investigators that after 14 years of sobriety, the journalist had begun “[using] drugs again in the past month or so.” The relative, whose identity was redacted from the report, told an investigator the family believed Hastings was using DMT, a powerful hallucinogenic. But tests for the drug were negative in Hastings’ body and an autopsy also found no signs of alcohol.

SNIP

One relative had arrived in Los Angeles from New York the day before the accident, with his brother scheduled to arrive later on the day of the crash "as his family was attempting to get [Hastings] to go to detox," the report stated.

Hastings, according to the coroner’s report, had previously been institutionalized for rehabilitative care in 1999. A witness told investigators that Hastings had been abusing Ritalin.

SNIP

Hours before the crash, Hastings had last been seen by a relative "passed out" sometime between 12:30 a.m. and 1 a.m. The crash occurred just before 5 a.m.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-michael-hastings-detox-crash-20130820,0,3709106.story

[1monster]

38. Nice naming of sources by the LA Times

[maddezmom]

36. It is mentioned in this article

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-michael-hastings-meth-coroner-20130820,0,5038230.story

[geek tragedy]

37. gladly

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/coroner-details-journalist-michael-hastings-death-20016317

Investigators said the crash occurred a day after Hastings returned from New York, where his wife was living at the time, and hours before a brother was due to join another family member in urging Hastings to go to detox. Family members told investigators that Hastings had been using the hallucinogenic dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, though the drug was not detected in a blood test after the crash.

The names of family members who spoke to investigators were redacted in the report.

The report said a family member had last seen Hastings passed out at home about three hours before the crash. The person said Hastings had been smoking marijuana the night before the crash.

[Rex]

33. Nice CT you built there congrats!

"Hastings died because he had trace amounts of meth in his blood which were determined not to be the cause of the crash."


I love it when CT haters create CTs! LOL!

[liberal_at_heart]

41. oh, how i love the trash button.

[Arcanetrance]

42. Sorry I don't trust gmo's why is it so hard to believe that it could be toxic in the long run

[Archae]

43. The chances of that are very small, if any.

Is a seed company really going to make seeds that grow into poisonous plants?

Helluva way to have repeat cutomers...

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. The coroner report *does not* agree with your conclusion

That drugs were responsible.