Check in here if you think Manning was justified in releasing the helicopter videos

[pnwmom]

but not in releasing hundreds of thousands of unrelated diplomatic cables.

Too bad he let Assange persuade him to do that.

[quinnox]

1. Releasing that helicopter video was entirely justified

no question.

[HooptieWagon]

2. Not only justified, but legally required.

If the military is covering up war crimes, it is a legal and moral responsibility to report it.

[larkrake]

3. I doubt Assange persuaded him to release anything

[pnwmom]

5. Didn't they have lots of conversations online before

Manning leaked the documents?

[ljm2002]

9. If you don't know the answer to that question...

...then why make the accusation?

If you are going to make an accusation, you should at least make some effort to find out the facts first. You are accusing first, then asking another poster to do your work for you.

[pnwmom]

10. Here is what I read, but I wondered if the other poster had different information:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bradley-manning-courtmartial-hears-evidence-of-online-chats-with-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-8656118.html

On the stand, Mr Johnson said he found a trail of chats between Manning and an account that prosecutors believe was used by Mr Assange. Those chats were about government business, he said, adding: “Specifically, they were mentioning Iceland, Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo (Guantanamo Bay.)”.They discussed WikiLeaks too.

The prosecution this week has asserted that the torrent of secret material sent by Manning to WikiLeaks included such things as code names and sensitive information on US military tactics and strategy. It also included at least one enemy target, the court was told.

In a statement that was read to the court, retired Air Force Lt. Col. Martin Nehring, a classification expert, said his review of Afghanistan and Iraq battlefield reports leaked by Manning revealed techniques for dealing with improvised explosives, the name of an enemy target, the names of criminal suspects as well as troop movements.

[reusrename]

11. If there is legitimate stuff that has to be classified, it should be handled that way.

It's hardly Manning's (or Assange's) fault that they covered up crimes in this manner.

The war criminals should be on trial, and certainly not the guy who turned them in.

[pnwmom]

12. It is Manning's fault that he purposely released thousands of unredacted diplomatic cables,

unrelated to war crimes, to Wikileaks.

I believe his intention initially was just to release the helicopter videos, but Assange talked him into turning over anything he could get his hands on.

My belief is based on the fact that Manning and Assange conversed for a year before Manning released the cables.

[Mojorabbit]

19. I am still waiting on the link that backs up your

assertion that Snowden gave the Russians info. I am patient.

[pnwmom]

22. He gave the Guardian info about spying on Russia that the Guardian published.

Haven't you been reading the Guardian?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/16/nsa-dmitry-medvedev-g20-summit

G20 summit: NSA targeted Russian president Medvedev in London
Leaked documents reveal Russian president was spied on during visit, as questions are raised over use of US base in Britain

American spies based in the UK intercepted the top-secret communications of the then Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, during his visit to Britain for the G20 summit in London, leaked documents reveal.

The details of the intercept were set out in a briefing prepared by the National Security Agency (NSA), America's biggest surveillance and eavesdropping organisation, and shared with high-ranking officials from Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

The document, leaked by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and seen by the Guardian, shows the agency believed it might have discovered "a change in the way Russian leadership signals have been normally transmitted".

The disclosure underlines the importance of the US spy hub at RAF Menwith Hill in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, where hundreds of NSA analysts are based, working alongside liaison officers from GCHQ.

SNIP

[Mojorabbit]

23. As I posted in the other thread, you cannot be serious.

We have been spying on them since I was a child in the 50s and they us. That is not giving away a single thing.

[pnwmom]

24. I am serious. Knowing that we spy on them in a general sense is not the same

as being provided the particulars. The release was also timed to interfere in ongoing negotiations we were having with Russia.

[Mojorabbit]

25. No. It is not a serious post.

I am sorry, it just is not.

[pnwmom]

28. You just don't want to admit that Snowden provided Russia with information

about a particular instance of US spying while the US was in the midst of negotiations with Russia.

So all you can do is try to minimize it. Sorry, that doesn't work.

[Mojorabbit]

31. It is a really naive assertion

Google US caught spying on USSR. There is a plethora of articles giving all manner of details about our spying on them over the years. Wikipedia has a page on the history of the spying between the countries for cripesake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Soviet_and_Russian_espionage_in_the_United_States

We have been back and forth spying since I can remember. Neither side is surprised by it at all.
Remember this?
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/united-states-charges-soviets-with-espionage

I could go on for days. It isn't much better with China
Remember when they hacked the pentagon?
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/05/china-hackers-pentagon/65628/

You cannot honestly think he gave either of them anything they already were not aware of. Remember when we were caught not long ago bugging the UN? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spying_on_the_United_Nations There are thousands upon thousands of history links of spying between the countries. No I do not believe at all that you are being serious. He did not give them one thing they were not already aware of.

[pnwmom]

39. Snowden offered information he obtained through stealing classified documents.

Not from googling.

And these leaks did nothing to strengthen his case against US internal surveillance. It just shifted the focus to international spying -- the job the NSA is supposed to be doing.

[Mojorabbit]

40. If Russia or China thought we were passing up an opportunity to spy on them they would

fall over in a faint. He gave them nothing. It is ridiculous to keep stating that he gave them information that was of significance.
He did not. Your saying it over and over does not make it true and I state again that you cannot be serious when you assert that it was.

[pnwmom]

44. The Guardian didn't think it was "nothing." n/t

[sabrina 1]

47. You would know the answer to that question if you had taken the trouble to read what Manning

said regarding her decision to release the documents. But it's easier to spread the Government propaganda regarding Assange, another hero whose Multi Award Winning News Organization led the way in establishing the New Media which has been the only hope of the people getting the facts about what their Governments are up to since Corporations took over the MSM where the 'news' is controlled, and instead of 'news' we get a 'message', as Hillary called it when seeking funding for 'communications'.

The answer is 'no' btw.

And not only was the release of that video justified, our Government failed in its duty to release when Reuters asked for it for two years to try to find out what had happened to their two journalists.

[pnwmom]

49. The answer is "yes."

And whatever the merits of releasing the video, the indiscriminate release of 250,000 unread, unredacted diplomatic cables was not justified.

[sabrina 1]

50. The release was NOT indiscriminate. It was very discriminate. Manning could have

chosen to release top secret material, but deliberately did not. This meme has been spread around by people who have no idea of the facts of this case.

She was VERY careful about what she chose to release.

See Ellsberg's response to this false statement.

IF Manning had wanted to harm this country she could have, but in fact her motives were the exact opposite.

I really wish people would familiarize themselves with facts when issues come up rather than repeating what they heard someone else say. Then spreading the false statements even further.

[UnseenUndergrad]

4. Checked in, K&R

S/He (are we identifying Pvt. Manning as Breanna or the assigned moniker of Bradley?) got taken for a ride by Assange, all right.

-Signed the Uninformed/Curious/Fed up with the screaming past eachother

[Bluenorthwest]

14. The OP's cohort and peerage heard from.

Good show.

[UnseenUndergrad]

17. As is what I can only describe as "the Opposition" to said OP.

Also a good showing.

Though I was not aware that a level of formality approaching that of a civilized meeting of the US Senate was in force.

[bravenak]

6. Checking in.

He should have released the helicopter video. But not the documents. I think he was manipulated into that.

[sabrina 1]

7. It was something the US Government SHOULD have done. So yes, he was absolutely right

to release it. Those journalists' family members had a right to know what had happened to their loved ones. Now they know, it helps someone who has had such a tragedy in their lives, to get some answers.

Manning provided them with that small solace.

[PDJane]

8. Yes, I do.

And please not that one must obey the lawful order of a superior. That doesn't include torture, murder of innocents, or destroying civilian infrastructure, by the law of the USA. Bloody hell, people.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. First you'd have to prove to me your assertion that these cables are fully unrelated

I might tend to see the cables as background material providing context and definition of a culture of international relations that includes such things as the acts shown on that video. A pattern of corruption, neglect or disregard for promises made would be very much relevant.
At any rate, I'm not going to simply declare they were not relevant. But I would love to hear you make a case cable by cable.
Other than that the OP is like asking 'while we all agree it is good he reported the murder, don't we also agree that he's an asshole for the way he reported it' and it is really, really hard to place the acts on that video next to virtually any other act and equate them in any way, I myself would leave those acts rhetorically unused, for the acts were heinous and cowardly.

[pnwmom]

15. Right. You'd love me to make a case for each of about 250,000 cables. No thanks.

He didn't read 250,000 cables so he can't say that they all provided relevant "background" information for the helicopter videos. What we do know -- because the Guardian and other media sources said so -- is that the cables included unredacted names of U.S. assets and allies around the world, the release of which could have put lives at risk. Too bad they got "accidentally" released anyway. Manning should have expected that when he handed them over to Assange.

[msanthrope]

16. Had he released the unedited helicopter video, yes...

But, the edited helicopter video, the searches performed for Assange, the insertion of software ..and the document dumping? No.

[stevenleser]

18. I don't think he should have released anything the way he did. The Helicopter video turned out to

not show any wrongdoing. Even Assange had to admit that in the group of 11 people that the helicopter fired on there was someone with an AK-47 and another person with an RPG (Rocket Propelled Grenade Launcher). That's not "unarmed civilians" that is a group that contained insurgents.

This is why folks should go through the proper channels to address wrongdoing. An investigation would have determined that there was no wrongdoing.

[EX500rider]

21. Here are the results of the investigation...

.....done by the 1st Air Cav Brigade & 2nd Brigade Combat Team on the Apache event:

https://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Death%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists

[snappyturtle]

30. Thank you for sending me to a site that opening monitors, and says

so! Jesus. I didn't expect to find much in the first place since it is
from the fox crew covering the raid on the hen house.

[EX500rider]

41. Yes it is the.....

.....United States Central Command EXTRANET Unclassified Portal.....I like source material from the source if possible.
The US military investigation of the event would be the most comprehensive since they have full access to all the US participants and related radio chatter and video footage. Who else exactly would be suitable to carry out the investigation in a active war zone?

The link does work for me.

[snappyturtle]

42. Warn us what we are going to see and that the site is

monitored. Copy and Paste is your friend and often done here.

[stevenleser]

45. There are 6 .pdfs at that site, I've downloaded them and will attempt to upload to my blog. I will

include a link here when complete.

The site has an invalid security certificate. I have both IE and Chrome. My chrome is set to reject sites that have invalid certs and not allow you an option to proceed. My IE settings are set to alert but then give you the option to proceed. I initially attempted to access the site with Chrome. Was able to get there with IE

[EX500rider]

48. Kinda funny/ironic CentCom can't keep their security cert up to date... n/t

[stevenleser]

32. Link doesnt seem to work. nt

[Bonobo]

37. There was a clear crime.

I just watched the video again.

The one man who survived the initial shooting was a journalist. He was wounded and a van came to help him. No weapons were seen but they opened up and killed everyone.

That was a clear crime.

And there were children in the van. The van that did nothing other than go to help a wounded journalist.

[snappyturtle]

43. +1 That rescue van shooting was deplorable....ugly Americans

comes to mind.

[Hayabusa]

20. 100% Justified

[burnodo]

26. 100% justified in everything he released

If he hadn't done it, nobody would have known about all the criminal actions of the US

[libodem]

27. .

[joelz]

29. When you see this much

criminal behavior you have an obligation to tell 100% justified

[99Forever]

33. He was justified in releasing ALL of it.

That it shows the TPTB for the dickhead assholes and jerks they are, is WONDERFUL.

Manning should be getting a Nobel Prize and the scumbags he exposed should be headed to prison where they belong.

[Ken Burch]

34. passive-aggressive OP

shame on you.

[burnodo]

35. SSDP

nt

[HardTimes99]

36. He was justified in releasing all videos, cables and supporting documentation. The U.S. is a rogue

nation in grave breach of international law and has been since at least March 20, 2003. The U.S. thus lacks standing to brand any action by leakers about its crimes as 'crimes.'

[mike_c]

38. sunlight is the ONLY real disinfectant....

I'm glad he released it all. Every bit of it. And someone else will do it again. You can only keep terrible secrets for so long.

[stevenleser]

46. We can discuss if that's true if the information is accurate and complete. We didn't get that here.

We got an edited helicopter video that gave an incorrect impression of the events that occurred (of the 11 folks fired on two had RPGS, one of the two were loaded, and one had an AK-47) and we got the opinions of diplomats whose anecdotal observations on a subject may or may not be accurate.

It's not as if we got peer-reviewed analysis on the things we are talking about.

We got the Bush/Cheney run-up to Iraq version of "sunlight" here.

[LittleBlue]

51. Unquestionably

Manning did us all a favor.

[geek tragedy]

52. yep, nt