So, how many of you still think Snowden should "come home and face the music?"

[Downtown Hound]

I mean, it's what Gandhi and MLK and this guy named Bradley Manning did, right? Of those three, two were assassinated and one's doing 35 years. Now why would Snowden not want that? He must be a fraud.

[CBGLuthier]

1. Not a fraud. Just a coward.

Now if only Snowden could achieve what the first two did maybe you would have something resembling a point.

[Downtown Hound]

5. This whole NSA shitstorm and backlash is thanks to Snowden

So personally I think he achieved quite a lot.

[hack89]

9. There has been no permanent and meaningful change yet

a year or so from now we will be able to say exactly what he has accomplished.

[Downtown Hound]

14. That's not Snowden's fault

I blame Obama and his many apologists here on DU and elsewhere for that. Snowden gave us the information. What we do with it is not up to him.

[upaloopa]

29. Had he not done what he did you wouldn't know shit about the NSA snooping

You don't have to wait a year.

[hack89]

47. That doesn't mean things will change

unless you really believe that the national security apparatus gives a shit about public sentiment.

Lets wait until strong laws are passed and the NSA is actually reigned in before starting the happy dance.

[upaloopa]

52. my point is you wouldn't even say wait because you

would have no reason to.

[hack89]

54. Time will tell. nt

[Downtown Hound]

60. And if strong laws are passed and the NSA is reigned in

are you going to give Snowden a little credit?

[hack89]

64. Of course nt

[Downtown Hound]

66. Then why not just give him a little credit now for getting the ball rolling?

It has to start somewhere.

[upaloopa]

28. The guy did you a great service

You should wish him well

[HardTimes99]

41. Snowden is the kind of 'coward' you can only dream of being. - nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. A government which illegally spies upon its people is the coward, the one to be punished. n/t

[99Forever]

46. People who think it's okay to spy on ...

... American citizens UNCONSTITUTIONALLY are the actual cowards. Of the lowest variety.

Edward Snowden is a hero that you will NEVER be the equal of.

[JoeyT]

73. Because real courage is only prosecuting people that can't fight back. n/t

[Wait Wut]

2. You're right.

It takes courage. Edward Snowden is not Bradley Manning, Martin Luther King, Jr. or Gandhi.

Bradley Manning made mistakes and has not only accepted his fate, but has shown us all that he is a brave young man. I wish him the very best and hope that he gets out as soon as possible.

[one_voice]

3. +1

[bravenak]

56. +2

[Downtown Hound]

4. It also takes courage to do what Snowden did

and give up his home. I know you probably think it's easy being exiled to a foreign country, but I doubt that it is.

[Wait Wut]

6. He left voluntarily.

He was not 'exiled'. He had the choice to stay. If you think hiding under Putin's wing is more courageous than what any of your three examples did, well...that's your opinion. I disagree.

[Downtown Hound]

7. Oh okay, so facing life in prison if you stay behind is your version of leaving "voluntarily."

Got it.

Oh and, that's really fucking dumb.

[Wait Wut]

10. No, I'm not 'really fucking dumb'.

I just have more respect for true courage than you do. It's obvious you aren't prepared for a real conversation, so I'll bow out of this ridiculous thread of yours and leave you to your hero worship.

[Downtown Hound]

17. No, what you have is a bullshit litmus test

that you sitting safe and smug behind your computer will never have to face. Basically what you're saying is one literally has to give their life or their freedom to be taken seriously by you. And while I do respect the courage of those who choose to do so, I don't consider it a requirement to be listened to or valued.

[Downtown Hound]

33. No, but many did consider them traitors. n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

11. I just want to point out that you and I seem to be on the same side on some important issues

I'm anti-NSA, and so are you. I hate guns, and you seem to also. But your celebration of a child's death, and your "doubling down" when called on it is so toxic that I'll never do or say anything in support of you, ever. I know you don't care about that, but you most certainly deserve all the scorn that can possibly be heaped upon a person.

Here's the vile subthread I'm referencing, in which you said "fuck 'em", about a dead child and his admittedly moronic father. When called to task, you stated that the kid probably would've grown up to be a fascist gun nut, so the world was better off without him. I can't stress enough: I hate guns, I hate gun culture, and I want to see much more rigid gun laws in place. But I'll never be able to make common cause with you, because you've ceded your humanity to something hateful and ugly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023497213#post7

[Downtown Hound]

22. So are you my new stalker? LOL.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

26. No, I think I've pretty much said what I have to say.

That's not set in stone, but I can't think of much more I have to say to you that would be useful.

[Wait Wut]

24. wow.

I'm speechless.

[Downtown Hound]

30. Don't be. I hate Republicans and gun nuts. And I'm not ashamed or embarrassed by that

And while I don't wish violence or death on anybody, I'm not going to freak out if they bring it on themselves.

Rather simple actually.

[Cha]

12. snowden's a coward.

[Fearless]

15. Why?

[Downtown Hound]

19. And there's that kind of insightful, thought out, well reasoned kind of response

that I've come to expect from his detractors.

[bvar22]

48. The Royalists and Tories said the same about the American insurgents.

They called them "cowards" and "traitors" who should turn themselves over to The Crown for punishment.

They called them "cowards" for not fighting a set piece battle against overwhelming odds.
I call them "pretty fucking smart."
I also call Snowden "pretty fucking smart" for the same reason.
In the same situation, I would do the same.

Would you like to call ME a "coward" to my face?

You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[whatchamacallit]

13. The people who enjoy calling him a coward would run a lot faster and farther than Snowden

if they were in his shoes. Of course they'll smugly assert they'd never be in his shoes, which really means they don't even have the balls to expose government crimes. Such "patriots".

[Downtown Hound]

20. Damn straight they would.

I wonder how many of these people have ever even been arrested for minor civil disobedience?

[Posteritatis]

31. Or who would consider minor civil disobedience comparable to a stunt like that?

I doubt the list of DUers who took on the government in the kind of ways that would lead to (at best) an effectively permanent prison sentence is a terribly large one.

[Downtown Hound]

32. Hell, the most I ever spent in jail was 12 hours

for protesting the Iraq War. And I very quickly realized jail is not fun. If I had the choice between fleeing to Russia or spending the rest of my life there, I would very quickly choose Russia.

[HardTimes99]

42. My applause to you for your service to this nation. You are part of what makes

this nation great and what little hope remains for this benighted land.

[Downtown Hound]

49. Why, thank you.

But I am more than willing to admit that my contribution was rather small. Snowden risked way more than I ever did, contrary to what many here say.

[HardTimes99]

74. To hear some here tell it, Snowden is a jet-setting playboy who risked and

sacrificed nothing for his act of patriotism. Of course, that same group has no friggin' idea what the word 'patriotism' means, confusing it with either 'nationalism' or, worse yet, 'idolatry'.

[Demo_Chris]

16. Snowden's character, his cowardice or courage, is irrelevant...

The SUBJECT is the NSA.

[Downtown Hound]

18. I agree.

But that's not going to stop me from pointing out the hypocrisy of his many detractors.

[Demo_Chris]

23. By all means carry on, I was just adding a shot of my own. nt

[warrprayer]

21. Ghandi and King

Were attacked and smeared as hatefully by those resisting change in their time as Snowden and Manning are right now.

[polichick]

25. Maybe Snowden cherishes his freedom...

I don't think less of him for leaving the country when it's clear that "liberty and justice for all" is a myth.

[MjolnirTime]

27. He'll face it whether he likes it or not.

[Hydra]

44. You going to go kidnap him for this Admin? n/t

[Downtown Hound]

51. You going to make him eat his vegetables too?

[CakeGrrl]

34. There are plenty of people in jail 'facing the music'. Why is he different?

As for Gandhi and MLK, please. They were silenced by individuals who hated their pacifist message and wanted to silence them.

Whether people here want to acknowledge it or not, whistleblower protections are in place.

Manning was not convicted of his whistleblowing.

Lots of lawbreakers would rather not go to prison. Snowden shouldn't have stolen from his employer and peddled the information outside the U.S.

[Downtown Hound]

38. Of course Manning was not convicted of whistleblowing

because, from a legal standpoint, that's not an actual crime. There is no going to jail for "whilstleblowing." But there is for things like treason and espionage, and what Manning did was akin to whistleblowing.

I brought up Gandhi and MLK because many people here have trashed Snowden by saying that if Gandhi and MLK were willing to go to jail, then Snowden should be too.

What I'm saying is, hey, if they want to go to jail, great. But just because Snowden doesn't want to doesn't make him a coward and doesn't negate what he did. Going to jail shouldn't be a litmus test by people who claim to value freedom.

We should be fighting for the freedom of people who take a stand for truth and justice, not demanding their incarceration. I was raised to believe that's what liberals stood for, freedom and fairness. Not jail and punishment for standing up for the constitution.

[MotherPetrie]

35. It's all they got. As if shaming Snowden in this way in any way, shape, or form equals the shame

and disgrace that Obama has brought on himself, his party, and this country by his embrace of NSA and the illegal police state it is working toward.

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. All of them. Because none of them want reality to intrude on their fragile illusions.

Let's talk about Snowald, or China, or Russia, or the law, or the time line, or anything else we can think of to avoid the issue. Just SOP for the comfortably guilty.

These are the people that would have been cheering in favor of the Chicago police riots in 1968.
& R

[HardTimes99]

43. It would be very interesting if you could figure out a 'blind poll' to see how many of them

would have sided with Daley and his goons. I'm not enough of a pollster or statistician to even begin to try. But I think you're onto something. (Once the historical verdict was safely in that it was a police riot, they might have felt safe to condemn Daley. But not before.)

[Egalitarian Thug]

59. Thank you. I have no doubt about it, you can see their faces in the news films.

I was lucky(?) enough to be at a very impressionable age and the child of dedicated hippies when all that was happening. The looks on the faces and the lust in the eyes of those people standing on the side watching the cops beat the hell out people offering no resistance or just trying to get out of the way was disgusting, and I'm sure, helped to form my rather jaundiced view of people.

All these years later people have forgotten that the hippies were always a small minority that usually banded together with other minority groups. As you say, after it was all over and the DFHs were shown to be right, everybody claims to have either been a DFH or that they supported the DFHs.

Here's an old joke/factoid I remember; Number of people who attended Woodstock; 500,000. Number who later claim to have been at Woodstock; 5,000,000.

And for the record, my parents were not at Woodstock.

[n2doc]

37. He has "hurt" their Icon. He must be punished. n/t

[AverageJoe90]

39. I actually WOULD like to see him dragged home.

Snowden IS a fraud. He stole classified material, knowing full well that there was potential of endangering American lives. And then he fled to China, then Russia, and gave this info to BOTH nations. Manning, for all his many failings, at least had a conscience and wasn't trying to endanger American lives or screw with the Obama administration. Snowden DID mess with Obama's admin from what can be seen, and didn't give two shits about who might be caught in the crosshairs.

[davidn3600]

50. Snowden wouldnt be a problem if the government was following the constitution

The NSA spying on Americans is illegal and unconstitutional.
Snowden blew that whistle and the government would want to punish him severely for that. So he ran.

What else did you want him to do? Tell his superiors? LOL! Good luck with that getting anywhere.

The problem with this is there is practically no oversight. Even judges on the FISA court admits that they can't police the NSA. They dont have that ability.

[AverageJoe90]

53. Some good points here, but Snowden was NOT a whistleblower.

He wouldn't have given that info to our rivals if he had been.....

[Downtown Hound]

58. If Obama would pull his nose out of the military industrial complex's ass

oh, and not to mention, Wall Street's, then he wouldn't have had to "mess" with the Obama administration.

[gopiscrap]

40. Not me

[DevonRex]

55. Snowden IS home. nt

[bravenak]

57. I thought he moved to Russia?

He loves it there. He can stay. No sneaking back.

[BlueJazz]

61. I don't blame Snowden at all for hauling ass. Who enjoys living in an atmosphere of..

...private prisons full of simple drug offenders ? The poor go to rot in a cell ...the rich and powerful go to Hawaii.

[brooklynite]

62. How about...he should face the music because he committed a crime?

[Downtown Hound]

63. How about, the NSA are the ones committing the crime

And if we're not going to jail war criminals and banksters, then we should cut Snowden a break.

[brooklynite]

68. Should we also stop prosecuting bank robbers?

[Downtown Hound]

69. LOL. If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I would have said no

Today, hmmm...I'm not so sure. Given that they stole my girlfriend's house by illegally foreclosing on it, I really don't give a shit if somebody steals from them.

[Downtown Hound]

70. You know, ultimately, it's not about Snowden

It's about restoring our constitution and making it safe for people to tell the truth when our government gets out of line. If we don't have that, what we have is fascism.

[Downtown Hound]

72. Yes, restore our Constitution, particularly the 4th amendment

And while I never said "take our country back," sure, we might as well do that too.

[Blue_In_AK]

65. I never thought that.

If I were he, I would disappear somewhere far, far away.