(German) Government warns of Windows 8

[steve2470]

original link: http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2013-08/trusted-computing-microsoft-windows-8-nsa/seite-1

Google Translate link: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fdigital%2Fdatenschutz%2F2013-08%2Ftrusted-computing-microsoft-windows-8-nsa%2Fseite-1&act=url

From the GT link:

How trustworthy is Microsoft? For the federal and all of the German authorities, businesses and private users who want to continue to work with the Windows operating system, this question is now more than ever. Because sooner or later they would have to use Windows 8 or its successor. From internal documents TIME ONLINE exist, but it is clear that the IT professionals of the federal Windows 8 deem downright dangerous. The operating system contains a back door in their view, can not be closed. This backdoor is called Trusted Computing and could have the effect that Microsoft can control any computer remotely and control. And thus the NSA.

Trusted computing is anything but a new phenomenon. Over the past decade, the technology is on the market. Simply put, it's about trying to protect the computer against manipulations by third parties, for example from viruses and trojans. The user is having to care about anything anymore. To achieve this, first, it needs a special chip that is called a Trusted Platform Module (TPM), and secondly a coordinating operating system. Together, they do not regulate, among other things, the user can install the software on a computer and which. Exactly how it works and what features are part of the Trusted Computing else, is for example here and explained here .


The way how the chip and the operating system work together is standardized. The corresponding specification of the Trusted Computing Group set (TCG). The TCG was founded ten years ago by Microsoft, Intel, Cisco, AMD, Hewlett-Packard and Wave Systems - all U.S. companies.

The current TPM specification is soon replaced by a new one, it is just 2.0 TPM. What is common already in smartphones, tablets, and game consoles, is the combination of TPM 2.0 and Windows 8 on PCs and laptops becoming the norm: hardware and operating system are matched, and the manufacturer of the operating system determines installed the applications on a device may be and which are not. In other words, trusted computing is a way, a digital rights management (DRM) to enforce.

Of course, this is machine translated. Human translation welcome, thanks.

[newfie11]

1. If NSA can figure out how to operate windows 8

More power to em. They can have my piece of shit.

[liberal N proud]

2. LOL

Windows 8 is a piece of shit!

[Aerows]

20. It's a pain in the ass

If there was any possible way that I could have gotten the hardware on my laptop at the price I got it at without having this shit-heap of an OS on it, I would have. I installed Windows 7 on it, but getting drivers for it all to work was impossible.

[Egalitarian Thug]

31. LOL! Sounds like you need an "IT Consultant" to listen very patiently to your problems

and then to very carefully explain, accompanied by a hefty binder of documentation, why it is your fault and that there's nothing you can do about them, and then to bill you for it.

[backscatter712]

3. This is why everyone here should take the trouble to learn Linux.

Microsoft has made it crystal clear that they're going to use their monopoly power to make things worse.

[madokie]

4. Linux is for you

Why more people aren't using Linux is beyond me. So much better in every way than windows any number/letters

If I can pick it up anyone out there can do it. Its really not that much different from the microshaft products.
Its free, it works right out of the box, no hassles, just fun complaying, in comparisons

[randome]

5. Because most people have better things to do with their time.

I'm an IT consultant but I know users. They want to use PCs to do their jobs, not figure out how to program and configure them.

It's not a matter of 'picking it up', it's a matter of time and crowding one's mind with technical specs. Most people don't want to do that.

As for Microsoft being capable of installing back doors in their code, so is any maker of Linux. But we would have seen evidence of this before now.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[madokie]

8. What the hell are you yammering about

"It's not a matter of 'picking it up', it's a matter of time and crowding one's mind with technical specs. Most people don't want to do that."
I've installed and run many different versions of Linux and not once have I had to crowd my mind with technical specs.

Obviously you know nothing about Linux

[randome]

10. I know next to nothing about Linux.

But if you say 'anyone can pick it up', that implies there is a learning curve. And most people don't want that hassle, from what I can see.

Even after installing, most users, I think, would have concerns about finding compatible filters and translators for their Word documents, Excel workbooks, etc. Maybe they're not so difficult to find but I think most people don't want to 'take the chance'.

I wish Linux was a more formidable challenge to Microsoft. We have been under their dyslexic form of programming for too long.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[madokie]

12. Everything just works

No more of a learning curve than a new version of windows. Word documents aren't a problem, not an excel users so not sure about that but I suspect thats not a problem either. Open source is the future in computing as its gaining market share

[randome]

13. Peace to you, too.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[d_r]

15. not picking on you

but I've seen windows 8, and I've seen kde, unity, cinnamon, gnome. I think it would be a lot easier for a windows xp type user to shift to linux than windows 8. Just imho. I've wondered why more people don't and I think one reason is because there are so many different flavors of linux they just don't bother trying. They are afraid they'll mess something up. I can understand that, nobody wants to lose their stuff. IMHO, it is amazingly easy and free, stable and secure.

[d_r]

16. about documents, excel, etc.

I work in a primarily windows institution with a good smattering of macs, and a very few linux. I have no trouble at all swapping documents with people, open office just works. I think it is easier for me to share with both macs and windows people than for the macs and windows people to talk to each other.

[randome]

29. A PC maker who heavily advertised those facts would sell some product!

But PC makers, like users in general, are a timid lot.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[IDemo]

17. Mint + Cinammon should equal "game over, Mr. Ballmer"

Unfortunately, most users are too intimidated by the idea of "messing" with a different OS to find this out. I can't imagine anyone who actually took the time to experience it would not be struck by its user friendliness and functionality.

[randome]

18. It's more perception than anything else, I guess.

With the decline in sales of PCs, maybe some manufacturers can resurrect their sales by actively promoting Linux. That would help a lot, I think.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

19. Maybe the 'tragedy' that is Windows 8 will inspire more people to take the plunge.

I still think we need PC makers actively promoting Linux as an alternative.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[AnotherMcIntosh]

30. "Word documents aren't a problem". Can you use Word VBA with it?

[RC]

14. "...finding compatible filters and translators for their Word documents, Excel workbooks, etc." ???

Always with the spin and propaganda -

OpenOffice and LibreOfice both "filter" and "translate" MS documents just fine. Plus are easier to use, as they both use drop down menus with logical groupings and not that stupid "Ribbon".
Also new versions of Linux do not force you to learn a new operation system, as Microsoft does. XP to windows 7? Need I even mention Windows 8 and their default touch screen desktop, even on non touch screen machines? After market fixes took care of MS screw-up here.

[randome]

21. Users don't want to take the time to learn all that, though.

Unlike many, I don't even like Windows 7 much, other than its faster startup time. And Windows 8 is simply an abomination.

Maybe more users will try out Linux now that Windows 8 has turned off so many.

Don't even get me started on the 'Ribbon'. But you know what I find worse: icons in the menus that have absolutely no meaning but serve to distract and confuse. I would bet there are few employees at Microsoft who even know what those icons are supposed to represent other than random splashes of color.

The first thing I do when I start a new job somewhere is to go through the Office menus and remove all the damned icons!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Aerows]

22. "I know next to nothing about Linux"

That's pretty obvious if you think it's horribly difficult. Ubuntu is refined to the point that you would barely know you are using Linux ... you are just using a functional OS.

[randome]

23. But I know users. Better than most, I think.

The average user is timid, has the perception -valid or not- that learning a new OS will be a dauntless, time-consuming task. Part of this concern is, paradoxiccally, because Windows malfunctions if you so much as sneeze in its presence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Aerows]

24. Windows 8 especially

I've had more crashes under Windows 8 in the 2 months I've used it than in the years I've used Windows 7 x64.

[randome]

25. I hadn't heard about W8 being unstable.

If that's the case, its future is dimmer than I thought. It's perception there, too. Now you can boot to the desktop and everything but the first impression everyone has is that garish, tile-based system. From that moment on, they are turned off.

Why even call it 'Windows' any longer if it doesn't have any?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Aerows]

27. It's not stable on my laptop

My laptop never crashed under Windows 7, but I had to use a USB wireless device because none of the network drivers available anywhere worked under Windows 7 (new hardware). My desktop with Windows 7 is rock solid, also. But with Windows 8, my laptop will hang about 20% of the time coming out of suspend and that didn't happen when I had 7 on it.

[kentauros]

28. Well, they will always ball it Windows because its a brand.

Marketing people like brands. It means familiarity, no matter what form the product takes. The Learning Channel, or TLC, is a brand, even if it has 0% to do with learning and teaching these days. They continue to sell it that way while doing the very opposite with their programming. Brand-familiarity is big in marketing.

[kentauros]

26. As a PC-user, I can attest to everything you've said so far.

Here's how I'll use any Linux machine, if that's all that's available in the future:

It will have to look like, act like, work like Win-XP at the very least. ALL of my current programs, peripherals (such as my Wacom tablet, and Cowon media player), games, documents, and data will have to be 100% compatible with the OS. ALL commands will have to be exactly the same as they are now. No menus can be moved around, commands shifted from one menu to another just to keep the software "current" (even as Windows and AutoCAD do just this anyway.)

There will be no learning curve, because I'll be able to look at it and get right to work. Everything will be in the right places, no crashes, no driver issues, no problems, and no self-IT work just to make simple things work.

Oh, and something exactly like DOS needs to exist, too. I do still use that from time to time, such as for printing a list of folders or other oddball needs.

Can the open-source folks do all of that, no exceptions? And when I say "no exceptions" I mean exactly that. Your Linux "solution" has to work exactly like what I am familiar with right now, or I'm not going to bother with it.

[randome]

32. Microsoft has helped 'dumb us down' a good deal.

Other than in the programming area. Even there it has become too much a test of one's 'copy/paste' skills than hardcore knowledge. Auto-generation of code files that few understand because they don't need to.

I yearn for a new OS.

The web would be a lot more useful if we stopped all the flashy crap and unneeded graphics that make up nearly every single site. Much of that was driven at the start by Microsoft's insatiable need to make everything graphical instead of focussing on actual usefulness or intuitiveness.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[kentauros]

34. Personally, the "flashy crap and unneeded graphics" I've always attributed to youth,

and their insatiable "need" for CGI-everything. And even though I have crash-issues with Opera, I love how I can switch to "User mode" and disable pretty much all graphics annoyances. That won't work on FB, unfortunately. That's also the primary reason why I hate FB.

I would love to see any of the alternatives to Windows make an OS that doesn't require relearning everything I know intuitively. Ctrl-C isn't the only Windows-based keyboard command I use. Plus, most of them are used on AutoCAD and other graphics programs. Why should I throw all that productivity-knowhow out the window, so to speak, just to have a "better" OS? Look how the public reacted to the change from menus to the ribbon on MS Office products.

And yet, when AutoCAD did it, I didn't need to go searching online for how to find everything. Some companies understand how to make their products better and keep the intuitive aspect. MS probably does, too, but would rather retrain everyone while productivity goes through the floor until they make their extra gobs of cash on the retraining.

[Egalitarian Thug]

35. Why aren't they using it? The largest segment doesn't even know it exists. The next group

are long-time users that saw it once 15 years ago and there was black window with cryptic text in it and so they still "know all about Linux". Then there are those that have a friend or relative that that "works in computers" that told them something or other, so they "know" Linux is a toy for geeky enthusiasts. Then there are those that make their living in the black hole of M$ while not really understanding very much at all about computers, so they tell everybody that will listen about how it's incompatible with whatever apps they use. Then there are the gamers, but this group is shrinking as PC gaming is being killed by M$ and the rest of the corporate giants who are sucking more and ever more $$ from proprietary consoles.

[DetlefK]

6. Some translations from the article:

Problems 1 and 2: The problem is that TPM 2.0 automatically activates at the start of the computer. -> You cannot decide whether to activate this option and you cannot deactivate it fully.

Problem 3: The OS effectively regulates TPM and on top of this it decides which programs are allowed and which are not allowed to run on your computer. -> The OS is making decisions that the user can't overrule, and accordingly the company of the OS has de-facto-control of the computer, not the user.

"This kind of Trusted Computing is wholly unacceptable for the federal administration and providers of critical infrastructure."

...

"Unconditional, full trust into Trusted Computing is not possible with TPM 2.0."

...

While other countries are able to negotiate with the TCG-group, the Germans were completely disregarded. But one member overheard a sentence at the conference: "The NSA is ok with this."

...

According to Professor Rüdiger Weis, an expert in cryptography, TPM 2.0-systems are vulnerable in at least 3 different ways. You have to expect that the NSA could compromise those computers (with Windows 8 and TPM 2.0) without any problems. That problem includes the Chinese, if the TPM-chips get manufactured in China.

...

Microsoft's defense: Most users accept preinstalled options. If they had the chance, most would deactivate it and opt for a less secure system. Making such an option to choose less security available by law, would be a bad move. And it's possible to use a hardware for your Windows 8 that allows you to opt out of TPM 2.0. (Provided you can find a company that manufactures it.)

If the federal IT-experts won't find such computers to their standards and to an acceptable price, they will most likely do, what the municipal administration of Munich is already doing: Switch their whole system to Linux.

[steve2470]

7. thanks for translating ! nt

[DetlefK]

9. Newer article: BSI and microsoft partially(!) rebuke the aforementioned article

http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2013-08/bsi-reaktion-windows-8-trusted-computing

Windows 8 and TPM 2.0 aren't considered "dangerous".

The huge gain in security (with TPM 2.0) is a plus for private users who aren't that firm with IT-security.

Nevertheless, the system is considered totally unsuitable for use in the german intelligence-services. (Without further explanation why.)

"But this only concerns particular offices, the Constitutional Wardens (police-like interior intelligence-service) or the BND (intelligence-service for foreign affairs) better shouldn't use the system.", said Thomas Baumgärtner of Microsoft.

An opt-in-option would be too much hassle for the average user. The negotiations between Microsoft and the german administrative offices are ongoing.

[steve2470]

11. thank you again nt

[BlueJazz]

33. I haven't had one problem with 8 since day one. I did have a 15 minute on-line class first though.

It runs faster than 7 and I love it....not that I don't like Linux also...