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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:04 AM Aug 2013

This drives me absolutely crazy. Just because a person of one race kills a person of another.....

...does not automatically make it race based.

Listen, what happened to Christopher Lane--the Australian baseball player murdered in Oklahoma--was horrific. It was senseless. It was truly jaw dropping unbelievably terrible. And if the three individuals in custody (two of them black, and the third appears to either be white or mixed race) are in fact those who committed the act, they are psychopaths of the highest degree and do not deserve to see another day in their life outside of prison.

But there's been a reactionary rush in the wake of the George Zimmerman trial--and it's pretty clear that it's coming from those on the right--to label any crime where an African American is accused of murdering a Caucasian as being automatically race based simply on account of the individual's respective races.

They do this, because in their twisted little minds, blacks "got" to get their "cause celebre" with the Trayvon Martin shooting, and because blacks "got" to have their race based case, well then, whites should get to have theirs, too.

It's the same thinking where some white people (and for full disclosure here, I am white) insist there should be a White History Month because there's a Black History Month, or that white people should get to say "n____r" without repercussion because black people can say it.

The murder of Christopher Lane, as tragic as it was, has absolutely nothing in common with the murder of Trayvon Martin. None.

Trayvon Martin's killing was not "race based" simply because George Zimmerman was white (or as some are so quick to smugly point out, Hispanic white) and Tryavon Martin was black. There have been plenty of cases where the perpetrator was white and the victim was black and that in and of itself did not make it race based.

Travyon Martin's killing was race-based because of the specific circumstances surrounding it. A young black male was doing nothing more than walking home from the store. George Zimmerman automatically tagged Trayvon as a criminal "up to no good," and I have no doubt in my mind Trayvon's race played a part in Zimmerman's thought process that horrible night. Zimmerman may not have shot Trayvon because he was black, but I do believe he followed him and initiated the confrontation in part because Trayvon was black.

Some people, mainly white conservatives, were quite uncomfortable with the fact that the Trayvon Martin case gathered national headlines and national discussions. They wanted it relegated as a "local story", or even worse, wanted to deny even the possibility that what Zimmerman did was a criminal act. They did this mainly out of denial of two things. First, a denial that racism in this country still could manifest itself in 2013 in the forms of issues like racial profiling, and that racial profiling isn't just a myth or an acceptable practice. Second, a denial that a so called "good guy with a gun", a legal gun owner with a CCW permit, could act recklessly or with a depraved heart and criminally cause the death of another person with his weapon. In other words, the facts contradict their narrative.

Could the Christopher Lane murder ultimately turn out to be race based? It's possible. Maybe these individuals did set out to murder Lane because he was white. But it's also possible that these three individuals were just plain old psychopaths who singled out Lane for no reason other than the fact they thought he was an easy target.

(Additionally, the Lane killing is much different from the Trayvon killing because it almost immediately gathered national headlines, and the accused were apprehended very quickly and charged. Contrast that to the Trayvon Martin shooting. I didn't personally learn about the Trayvon Martin shooting until nearly two weeks after it happened, and I first learned about it on local South Florida news because he happened to be from Miami. It took another week for it to make national headlines. And George Zimmerman, after a very brief initial detention, for over two months was treated as someone who had been exonerated from even the possibility of wrongdoing, thanks to a seriously messed up law.)

The bottom line is that the facts in this Lane case are still very much unknown and until there's facts that come out that this was a race-based murder, it shouldn't be viewed as such. But that doesn't stop certain people from automatically jumping to conclusions because, let's be honest, they have a racial chip on their shoulder.

Don't believe me? Take a look at this Facebook page entitled "Justice for Christopher" which I noticed a FB friend of mine liking (and which basically started me on this rant). From it's title, it's seemingly innocuous, but it turns out to be anything but:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-for-Christopher/1407815682777258?fref=tck

Look at people's comments, especially in the "Recent Posts by Others" sections. You have people expressing outrage--outrage over what? The accused perpetrators have been arrested and charged and will be tried. You have people obsessing over black on white crime. You even see someone post articles from a white supremacist website.

These are the people who love to throw around the term "race baiting" but they in fact are the true race baiters here.

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This drives me absolutely crazy. Just because a person of one race kills a person of another..... (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 OP
There you are . . . JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #1
It did take a while for the Zimmerman case to go national RZM Aug 2013 #2
That's what I don't even understand. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #3
Race is probably there in the Lane case, though it's far from the whole story RZM Aug 2013 #19
Thanks to the police dispatch call, we knew Zimmerman's thought process that night. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #23
Seems like just about pipi_k Aug 2013 #4
Maybe or maybe not at DU, but did you *see* the Facebook page I posted? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #5
Didn't pipi_k Aug 2013 #9
I hate to tell you this, Tommy ...... oldhippie Aug 2013 #6
Explain further. nt Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #7
In this case, though, didn't the shooter post bigoted rants about white people? nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #8
Perhaps. Maybe. I don't know. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #10
It's not proof, but it is suggestive. See link below. geek tragedy Aug 2013 #11
Right now I'd need to go off more than just that. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #12
I don't think it can be assumed to be true or false at this point. nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #13
Good point JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #16
I think that the poster Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #50
His twitter account is still active. Glassunion Aug 2013 #14
Right, it's just to early to say. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #15
Bigotry JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #17
Racism defined by Webster: wercal Aug 2013 #20
Only from the perspective of a black person in America JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #24
Most prison inmates will return to society blueridge3210 Aug 2013 #54
No JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #63
Well, maybe Supersedeas Aug 2013 #84
You don't want anyone to make a nexus between the Martin and Lane cases.... wercal Aug 2013 #18
Please see my comments further down. I'm talking about outrage over the process. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #21
Posted the day after the Martin verdict JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #32
If the outrage over the Zimmerman case was all about "the process," YarnAddict Aug 2013 #51
You're being extremely fatuous Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #22
It only showed the alleged shooter harbored racist beliefs. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #26
Wow. Incredible. Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #27
Being a racist and engaging in a race-based crime are two different things. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #31
Your facts don't support anything of consequence Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #33
Are you saying that engaging in racial profiling isn't a racist act? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #34
He wasn't on trial for racist profiling Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #35
Did you actually follow the Zimmerman trial? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #37
Tell you what Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #39
Because that's just it. They're two entirely different cases. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #41
I have a theory about why Z thought TM looked "suspicious" other than race XemaSab Aug 2013 #69
There's a good chance that GZ had a reason to be suspicious of TM cpwm17 Aug 2013 #42
Had Zimmerman ever come across Trayvon before in his life? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #43
Courts have strict rules on evidence cpwm17 Aug 2013 #45
Again, we're talking about profiling here. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #46
When the cops told GZ that they had a video of the conflict cpwm17 Aug 2013 #53
MORE BULLSHIT!!! Stay off winger sights, Zimmerman KNEW the camera guy and KNEW the cameras weren't uponit7771 Aug 2013 #60
I don't do winger sites cpwm17 Aug 2013 #80
Jeantel's testimony was hardly worthless. And there was no evidence of an unprovoked ambush on GZ. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #73
Except XemaSab Aug 2013 #86
From that article: Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #90
BULL FUCKING SHIT, If Z didn't know of TM's past its STUPID on its face to even inject it in what uponit7771 Aug 2013 #59
You're denying reality if you claim that people can't become suspicious based on other's behavior cpwm17 Aug 2013 #64
Strawman noted, could care less about what COULD happen you infered that TMs past actions could have uponit7771 Aug 2013 #65
How much less could you care? cpwm17 Aug 2013 #68
We don't know that Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman at some point. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #75
The only part of the altercation that we have evidence for cpwm17 Aug 2013 #79
No one eyewitnessed the actual beginning of the fight. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #82
One of the people involved in the shooting was white wasn't he? Regards uponit7771 Aug 2013 #58
I don't know JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #28
I have to laugh now. Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #29
Yeah JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #30
So is racism only manifested in internet posts? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #47
Good lord man Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #48
Well I seriously never got one from you. nt Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #49
No, he didn't and "claimed" is different than the obvious hanging out with the race that you're uponit7771 Aug 2013 #61
A black teen, hater of white people, going to shoot a white person treestar Aug 2013 #57
On of the people he was with was white, real hard to prove animous of a race based crime against uponit7771 Aug 2013 #62
Yep, wingers whine about how we don't care when black people kill white people treestar Aug 2013 #71
Of course that's correct. At this point, there is not enough info on the Lane cali Aug 2013 #25
this notion depends on the assumption that African Americans must all hate and want to kill whites librechik Aug 2013 #36
not automatically Enrique Aug 2013 #38
Exactly. It's too early. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #40
This must be my week for reccomending books. rrneck Aug 2013 #44
I see your point but madville Aug 2013 #52
One of the shooter's 840high Aug 2013 #56
I'm pretty sure that if some white dude tweeted about how "nasty" Muslims were, Nye Bevan Aug 2013 #55
Well said oberliner Aug 2013 #66
word XemaSab Aug 2013 #70
I rec'd the OP but I reluctantly agree with your post... n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #72
It's really beside the point what some DUers might think in such a hypothetical. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #74
I guess you're right. Just because someone tweets that he "hates" people of a certain ethnic group, Nye Bevan Aug 2013 #77
Show me the actual evidence that the murder itself was racially motivated. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #81
Except this black dude seems to have a white girlfriend and white friends. kwassa Aug 2013 #76
Not necessarily. Union Scribe Aug 2013 #83
He committed this crime WITH a white guy. kwassa Aug 2013 #87
Dissonance is where bigotry lives. Union Scribe Aug 2013 #89
I agree. kwassa Aug 2013 #91
We should do this by height instead. dawg Aug 2013 #67
I don't get why when a white person kills a black person, everybody jumps to claim racism. . . Travis_0004 Aug 2013 #78
except that one of his compatriots in the crime was white. kwassa Aug 2013 #85
Not sure where you are coming from... Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2013 #88
 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
2. It did take a while for the Zimmerman case to go national
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:11 AM
Aug 2013

But once it got there, it stayed national for well over a year, all the way through the trial.

The Lane case was picked up quickly by the media, but I suspect it will be dropped just as quickly. A couple months from now I doubt we will be hearing too much about it.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
3. That's what I don't even understand.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:19 AM
Aug 2013

The outrage over the Trayvon Martin shooting was that not only did it go unreported, but the police investigation was closed so quickly thanks to the law. People marched and protested because the story was being ignored and there wasn't a proper investigation done.

With the Lane case, it was almost instantly reported, a full police investigation was done, and the alleged perpetrators were quickly charged as a result of that investigation.

What's there to be outraged about or protest about other than the fact that the killing itself was horrific?

Why are people insisting that black civil rights leaders make statements about a case that there's no evidence yet was raced based?

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
19. Race is probably there in the Lane case, though it's far from the whole story
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:23 AM
Aug 2013

These three are psychopaths. If you can murder a random person of one race on the street, you could probably do it to somebody of any other race.

Would these three have picked out a random black girl to kill for kicks? I don't know. Possibly not. But I'll bet they wouldn't think twice about killing their black girlfriend if she pissed them off. They are already the worst of the worst as it is. Adding racism is just icing on the cake.

The Zimmerman case was much more racial because his profiling started the series of events that led to Martin's death.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
23. Thanks to the police dispatch call, we knew Zimmerman's thought process that night.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:37 AM
Aug 2013

We don't know what was going on in the heads of these three people.

Maybe race was part of the thought process regarding their actions that day, but until facts come out to suggest that, I'm withholding labeling the case as race based.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
4. Seems like just about
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:27 AM
Aug 2013
every unfortunate/tragic incident involving different races just has to be...in the minds of many...all about racism.

But only if it involves the more "powerful" race being the perpetrator. If the victim happens to be black, then it's racism.

If the perpetrator is black and the victim is white...well...all I can say is that I have never...at DU anyway...seen a shred of ranting about racism by blacks on whites.

It's like blacks somehow get a free pass for the suffering inflicted on them for a very long time in this country.

Anyway, I don't think this latest case involves racism, either. Just a bunch of shitty little punks out to alleviate their boredom on possibly the first person they saw.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
5. Maybe or maybe not at DU, but did you *see* the Facebook page I posted?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:31 AM
Aug 2013

The people on there are crawling all over themselves to make the case about racism by blacks on whites.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
9. Didn't
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:39 AM
Aug 2013

see it, but I do believe you.

In fact, I haven't been to FR, but I can visualize that place going absolutely bullshit with the same crap.

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
6. I hate to tell you this, Tommy ......
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:34 AM
Aug 2013

.... but in the minds of many here at DU, it does.

Doesn't make it OK, but it is the reality.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
10. Perhaps. Maybe. I don't know.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:39 AM
Aug 2013

Unless we have evidence that he specifically targeted Lane because of his race, I don't see that fact making the killing race based.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
11. It's not proof, but it is suggestive. See link below.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:46 AM
Aug 2013
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/22/james-francis-edwards-tweets-racist-messages_n_3794913.html

Seems somewhat academic, as he'll be spending the rest of his natural life in a prison, where he and the Aryan Brotherhood will have a chance for dialogue and healing.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
12. Right now I'd need to go off more than just that.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:54 AM
Aug 2013

Taking the converse:

Say a member of Stormfront decides to rob a store, and the clerk he robs just happens to be black. Does that make the robbery race related? Or did the guy just want to rob a store?

I'm not discounting the possibility that this was race-related, but I think some people are just climbing all over themselves to label this as race related in reaction to the Zimmerman case. Because they want "their own" Zimmerman case.

Now, there are three suspects in custody. If one of them claims that the shooter said he singled out Lane because he was white, then we can certainly argue that it's race related.

So far that hasn't happened yet, so I think any labeling is way premature.

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
16. Good point
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:13 AM
Aug 2013
I'm not discounting the possibility that this was race-related, but I think some people are just climbing all over themselves to label this as race related in reaction to the Zimmerman case. Because they want "their own" Zimmerman case.



Because even right on this thread - there are people in this world who believe blacks get a free pass. They are sick of all those 'perks' and 'benes' and free passes black people get in America.

This is supposed to 'even it up and set all things right' in their minds perhaps?

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
50. I think that the poster
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:29 AM
Aug 2013

You are referring to was discussing hate crime accusations...it seems that when a white person is the perp and the vic is a minority some people feel that there is an automatic assumption by some people that it was a hate crime. Whether that assumption is true I don't know.

Glassunion

(10,201 posts)
14. His twitter account is still active.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:01 AM
Aug 2013
https://twitter.com/JAMESAKABUG

If you go though he posts, he strikes me as a misogynist punk, and a racist. If racism was the motive in this crime, I cannot say, as there are no facts out there yet as to why the chose their victim.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
15. Right, it's just to early to say.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:10 AM
Aug 2013

Clearly he appears to harbor some very ugly racists thoughts.

But being a racist and perpetrating a racial motivated crime aren't always one in the same.

For example, I don't believe--and there's no evidence to suggest--that George Zimmerman was a hard-core racist who hated blacks and who sought out to shoot a black kid just because. I do think, however, that he harbored pre-conceived negative stereotypes against young black males, and it was that pre-conception that started the ball rolling which didn't stop until Trayvon Martin was dead. And that's what, in my opinion, made the shooting of Trayvon Martin race-based.

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
17. Bigotry
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:15 AM
Aug 2013

Not racism.

He had no power to implement his beliefs that were economic or societal - and he did not benefit from institutional racism that permeates the US.


Best way to explain it -

Strom Thurmod, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Scalia, Roberts - they are racists.

James is a bigot.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
20. Racism defined by Webster:
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:30 AM
Aug 2013
a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

I don't see anything in there about power to implement beliefs, as your definition suggests...but I'll play along.

At the moment the gun was pointed at Chris Lane, who had the ultimate power? Was James Edwards to 'implement his beliefs' that "90% of white ppl are nasty. #HATE THEM" when the gun was pointed at Lane?

I refuse to believe that only members of ethnic groups that comprise a minimum of 51% of the population are capable of racism. If you don't agree with me, please explain how prison gang violence is 'bigotry' and not racism.

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
24. Only from the perspective of a black person in America
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:39 AM
Aug 2013

Whites are the dominant culture and ruling class. It's a fishbowl for observation for those not in the dominant culture.

He's outside of the fishbowl - as marginalized as the WHITE man who opened fire on a UU Church in TN a few years ago. Powerless.

His only power was his gun. His rage. His anger.


Blacks - we are only about 12%. You can't assume all minority racial groups think exactly the same. I.E. That's why blacks are bigots to Mexicans, Mexicans are bigots to Koreans, etc. etc. That 51% is not monolithic.


Oh - and I could care less about what a bunch of criminals do to each other in prison!

The three teenagers did not commit this crime from within prison. Somehow - they got ahold of a gun. So far as I know - it was a legal purchase - correct?

They had the absolute right (per 2nd Amendment Advocates) to own that gun regardless of their racial hatred.

I need to hear/read one testify that the person who pulled the trigger said, "I hate these white punks and they always get away with running while white and I'm gonna get this one" - then I will believe the sole intent and person of this young man being murdered in cold blood with a Gun was based on his skin color.





 

blueridge3210

(1,401 posts)
54. Most prison inmates will return to society
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:25 AM
Aug 2013

Behavior learned in prison has a way of transferring to behavior in society once released. It might be a good idea to have some concern about "what a bunch of criminals do to each other in prison" given this reality. This is one reason that incarcerating drug addicts become counterproductive; it has a way of teaching new criminal behavior to otherwise non-violent persons.

Regarding the "legal purchase" of the weapon; according to the story all three are minors and therefore cannot legally purchase or possess a firearm.

Even the most ardent gun rights supporter on this board has recongnized limits on the rights to own firearms; I can recall no one advocating a an "absolute right" to own firearms. The cost of living in a free society requires that due process be followed before denying someone a right; that includes racial hatred. This applies to freedom of speech and religion as well as the right to own firearms; it also applies to 4th, 5th and 8th amendment protections.

I agree that before anyone is accused of committing a crime because of race there needs to be clear evidence of this. Mere racial difference between the perpetrator and victim does not meet this standard. A review of the Zimmerman/Martin incident shows there is as much evidence of race playing a role in the encounter as there is evidence of race playing a role in the Lane incident.

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
63. No
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
Aug 2013

It might be better to look at the laws that get black and Hispanic kids incarcerated as hardened criminals while a white collar white guy has a little blow and gets probation. It might be a good idea to look up my posts too - since you are new here.

I hate Zimmerman, think he's the scum of the earth, see how my black brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews, etc etc are suffering in this country, and think we need gun laws that mimic Japan's.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
18. You don't want anyone to make a nexus between the Martin and Lane cases....
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:21 AM
Aug 2013

One of your statements struck me as odd:

"You have people expressing outrage--outrage over what?"

Ummm...you don't think the case is outrageous? Well, I'll try to explain:

When one of the suspects states to the police that the group killed a man...because they were bored...that is outrageous. And, if you think about it too long, it makes one worry about their own and their family's safety, if bored teenagers have replaced smashing mailboxes and throwing tp in trees with murder.

So what if the perps have been arrested. That doesn't bring Chris Lane back to life. Of course people are outraged.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
21. Please see my comments further down. I'm talking about outrage over the process.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:33 AM
Aug 2013

Post 3:

"With the Lane case, it was almost instantly reported, a full police investigation was done, and the alleged perpetrators were quickly charged as a result of that investigation.

What's there to be outraged about or protest about other than the fact that the killing itself was horrific? "

The killing was horrific. The apparent motive was horrific.

And yes, people should be outraged about the killing and the apparent motive.

But that's not what people are focusing in on.

Again, take a look at the "Justice for Christopher" page, and the comments on it:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-for-Christopher/1407815682777258

People are obsessing over what they think President Obama or Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson or Eric Holder hasn't said or done. They're claiming that the case has been ignored by the media (it most certainly hasn't). They're obsessed about turning the case into the white Trayvon Martin case even though the cases aren't even remotely similar.

There's no outrage to be had there because none of those things they are obsessing about are actually true.

A horrible murder was committed, a full police investigation was taken and the alleged perps were apprehended. The case has received national and international attention.

I fail to see how we are supposed to be outraged over the process even though some people are claiming we need to be.

To illustrate my point, heck out one Facebook poster's quote. His name is Dan Nigro (no, I am not making that up):

"If you ALL are (in solidarity with Christopher Lane), why are you NOT marching/protesting? Putting pressure on National Media? Mass crowds marching on State Capital? Town Hall? That's why NOTHING happens when it's whites, b/c WE sit back and take it!! No 'balls" to march/protest...........If you're ALL Chris Lane, then DO AS "THEY" Do, and truly represent this young man!!! WTH is a Facebook page going to do? Get serious, or get lost. My challenge to you. IF you do, I'm in, if you don't just another forgotten tragedy."

What's there to protest?

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
32. Posted the day after the Martin verdict
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:08 PM
Aug 2013

There was still such outrage in the white pro gun community.

And all I could think was -


Why are you so damn angry- Justice was served.


It seems like the justice system is all over this man's murder as well they should be.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
51. If the outrage over the Zimmerman case was all about "the process,"
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:03 AM
Aug 2013

then once Zimmerman was arrested, charged, tried, and acquitted, then everyone walked away happy because all they wanted was "the process," correct??

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
22. You're being extremely fatuous
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:37 AM
Aug 2013

Race might not be the only factor in this Lane case, but are you going to tell me the
evidence found on he shooter's Twitter isn't EXTREMELY damning?

That is literally infinitely more evidence of this shooter's racial bias than of Zimmerman's (I know that since he has been
called a racist on DU about 50,000 times that it's part of the canon, but I'm focusing on actual evidence. "Oh come on,
you know he's a racist" isn't evidence) but I've seen no accounting of that.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
26. It only showed the alleged shooter harbored racist beliefs.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:47 AM
Aug 2013

It doesn't show that he did to Lane what he's accused of doing because Lane was white.

Whether facts to that extent emerge remain to be seen.

Whereas in the Zimmerman case, we know that Zimmerman repeatedly called police on young black males he deemed to be suspicious, and that he viewed Trayvon as suspicious even though he wasn't actually doing anything wrong, and that it appears he had a breaking point to the extent that he said "these assholes, they always get away" and "fucking punks."

This might not be KKK/Aryan Nation style racism from Zimmerman, but to claim there's no evidence that Zimmerman's actions that night were not race based is to stick one's head in the sand.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
27. Wow. Incredible.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:57 AM
Aug 2013

Your logic goes on quite the journey, doesn't it?

I can fix this for you: you wanted, and want, Zimmerman to be a racist. You MIGHT very well be right. You DON'T seem to want the Lane shooter to be racially motivated at all (why? I don't know), despite strong evidence to his opinions on Twitter. You're using weak associations to call Trayvon Martin's death racially motivated than Lane's death. Why is that? If Zimmerman had similar posts on Twitter, are you telling me you wouldn't be citing those right now?

I suspect you crave other heads in the sand to keep yours company.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
31. Being a racist and engaging in a race-based crime are two different things.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
Aug 2013

You don't seem to want to realize that distinction.

Fact 1: There hasn't been any evidence come to light yet that the Lane shooter murdered Lane because he was white. I'm not saying that no such evidence will come out, but I am saying there's nothing to speak of yet. Go ahead and show me otherwise.

Fact 2: George Zimmerman on at least five prior occasions had called police regarding people in his neighborhood he believed to be suspicious. All of those persons just so happened to be young black males. Trayvon Martin happened to be a young black male, and George Zimmerman is heard on tape saying that he looks like "he is up to no good" even though he wasn't actually doing anything wrong that evening. And it was enough to motivate George Zimmerman to get out of his car. While armed. And as we know, things deteriorated from that point on.

Those are all two facts we know to be true. And you know them to be true as well.

By the way, did you see any of George Zimmerman's brother's tweets on Twitter? Because you might want to walk back your comments after reading them. But I didn't mention them because it's all beside the point. Being a racist and engaging in a race based crime are two different things. I don't understand how you fail to realize that.

(Just for your own education.....http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/zimmerman-brother-unleashes-twitter-rant-martin-case-article-1.1299501)

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
33. Your facts don't support anything of consequence
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:11 PM
Aug 2013

Except your fact 2 would strongly imply to a reasonable person that you would look at the Lane killer's Twitter posts and conclude racial motive.

Your fact doesn't even establish Zimmerman as a racist, let alone race as a motivator in Martin's death. If you want to claim "yeah, but it looks pretty fishy to me," then if you're consistent in the least, you'd say the same about Lane's killer. But I don't think you want to be consistent.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
34. Are you saying that engaging in racial profiling isn't a racist act?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:18 PM
Aug 2013

Wherein by you are judging a person not by his character but by the color of his skin?

We have a guy who repeatedly called police about young black males he deemed to be suspicious, and one night he sees another young black male. Doing nothing more than walking through the neighborhood. But somehow it bothers him enough to say that he is "up to no good", that he is a "fucking punk" and an "asshole who always gets away."

All because this young black male happens to be walking through his neighborhood that night. Nothing more and nothing less.

But because Zimmerman didn't go around calling black people "n____rs" or declaring his hatred towards black people, that exonorates all racial components of his actions on the night of Trayvon Martin's killing?

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
35. He wasn't on trial for racist profiling
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:23 PM
Aug 2013

in fact he wasn't on trial for racial ANYTHING.

You have yet to demonstrate that the SHOOTING was racially motivated (I know, that's heresy! OF COURSE IT WAS!!! Except...that part isn't totally clear).

You're using evidence of his OPINIONS and BIAS to establish racial motive for the KILLING. I'm saying that if you're doing that, then why won't you consider damning Twitter posts to do the same for Lane? I mean, YOU'RE USING ZIMMERMAN'S QUOTES TO ESTABLISH HIS RACIAL BIAS. Why wouldn't you use THE SHOOTER'S PUBLISHED QUOTES to do the same?

(I know the answer already. The question is rhetorical.)

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
37. Did you actually follow the Zimmerman trial?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:43 PM
Aug 2013

It was a Second Degree Murder trial, not a First Degree Murder Trial. And it wasn't alleged that Zimmerman intentionally sought out to kill Trayvon Martin, because he was black, or for any reason at all. Legally, motive was beside the point.

However, what was front and center in discussions about the Zimmerman case was Zimmerman's actions leading up to the shooting. If he didn't actually witness Trayvon committing any crime, why did he initially perceive Trayvon to be a threat? Why did he get out of his car, knowing police were on the way? Why did he call Trayvon a "fucking punk" or an "asshole who always gets away?"

These are legitimate questions, and if you don't think Trayvon's race and demographic is at least part of the discussion in trying to answer these questions, you're deluding yourself.

Maybe not anything that was spoken of in the courtroom out of fear of prejudice against a criminal defendant, but that doesn't mean these questions don't actually exist.

What was notable about Zimmerman's case was that it was a pattern of behavior. He'd call police about a suspicious person in the neighborhood. The first happens to be a young black male. And the second. And the third. And the fourth. And the fifth.

So when we get to the sixth young black male, we could expect a predictable response from Zimmerman. Except there's a certain level of frustration added in--"These assholes, they always get away"--and that may explain why this time he doesn't stay in his car.

Race was not the only issue in the Zimmerman case, but it was most certainly an issue.

With the Lane murder, we have some jackass tweeting about how he hates white people. Which is despicable. And the crime that he's accused of committing is truly horrific. But there's right now, as we speak, to connect the two. There's no pattern of behavior that can explain his alleged actions that night. Until some sort of causation can be established between the person's twitter rants and what he's accused of doing, you just cannot say that race was the motive.

Finally, not a rhetorical question:

1. If George Zimmerman did not actually witness Trayvon Martin committing a criminal act, why did he tell dispatch "he looks like he's up to no good"?

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
39. Tell you what
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:48 PM
Aug 2013

when you can tell me with a straight face that had Zimmerman posted analogous things on Twitter,
you'd be noncommittal about their relevance, we can talk. For now, you're just splitting hairs, and in so
doing you're being inconsistent across cases.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
41. Because that's just it. They're two entirely different cases.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:11 PM
Aug 2013

One is a first degree premeditated murder case, and the other is a second degree depraved heart murder case.

And just because someone doesn't post racially offensive things online or could even have the proverbial "black friends" doesn't mean one is incapable of holding prejudicial stereotypes based on race that may manifest themselves in things such as racial profiling.

And just because one does posts one's racially offensive thoughts or beliefs online doesn't mean that every action they take is motivated by such beliefs.

My point in all of this is that these aren't similar cases, but that regardless there are some hell-bent in turning this case into the "White Trayvon Martin" case.

And whether you want to admit it or not, there was a legitimate discussion of race in the underlying facts surrounding the Trayvon Martin case.

Whether there are racial facts underlying the Lane murder remain to be seen, but people are jumping the gun in saying that there was, because they want to draw false analogies between the two dissimilar cases.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
69. I have a theory about why Z thought TM looked "suspicious" other than race
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:39 PM
Aug 2013

You ever see someone walking down the street like they're just wandering and their body language looks off and they seem slightly out of it and they're looking around like "derp" and you're wondering if you're dealing with a dangerous mental patient and then you realize that the person is just talking on the phone?

TM was talking on the phone using a headset, and he was wearing a hoodie. Without being able to hear him talking, Z probably would not have known he was on the phone.

I have no evidence for this, but I don't think it's out of the question.

(Which isn't to say that I don't think it was mostly racial.)

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
42. There's a good chance that GZ had a reason to be suspicious of TM
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:25 PM
Aug 2013

It's not the first time someone's been suspicious of his behavior, and the last time it was proven to be justified:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.


TM enjoyed getting into a lot of fights, and he demonstrated his violent behavior by attacking GZ. TM wouldn't stop that attack despite GZ's cries for help. It's always very bad and evil move to attack strangers. This unprovoked attack indicates that there is a good chance that GZ's suspicions were correct.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
43. Had Zimmerman ever come across Trayvon before in his life?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:27 PM
Aug 2013

The answer is no.

Zimmerman had no clue who Trayvon Martin was, so he would have no idea as to what his character was.

There's a good reason what you talk about wasn't admitted into evidence at trial. It's because it wasn't relevant to the case.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
45. Courts have strict rules on evidence
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:58 PM
Aug 2013

the general public does not. I can use my common sense to determine that there is a good chance that GZ had a reason to be suspicious, and that TM's history shows he has a propensity towards violence (GZ also has engaged in violence in the past).

The fact that the only evidence is that TM attacked GZ, and refused to stop, is the most important fact of them all, though.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
46. Again, we're talking about profiling here.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:13 PM
Aug 2013

George Zimmerman didn't know Trayvon Martin from Adam and had no idea whether the person he was looking at was a serial killer, a boy scout, or anywhere in between.

Can you agree that Zimmerman's judgment on Trayvon that he made from the seat of his car, that "he looks like he's up to no good", fits the classic definition of profiling?

In fact, whatever Trayvon may have done in the past aside, that particular evening Trayvon Martin was doing nothing wrong and nothing criminal.

As for your claim that there is evidence that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, the only "evidence" was from Zimmerman's own statements. No witness corroborated his story that Trayvon "ambushed" Zimmerman as Zimmerman had claimed. There was actually a witness whose testimony suggested the opposite--Rachel Jeantel--but for whatever reason her testimony was dismissed, both by pundits and apparently by the jury, perhaps she was not the most eloquent and photogenic of witnesses.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
53. When the cops told GZ that they had a video of the conflict
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:15 AM
Aug 2013

GZ was pleased. He thought he would be exonerated based on the facts as he experienced them. I guess this was a ploy by the police.

There is zero evidence that anything GZ did caused any harm or danger to TM. GZ's suspicions are only of concerns to GZ. All indications are that it was totally unprovoked. Rachel Jeantel's testimony was totally worthless for the prosecution. In a just system her testimony has to be discounted. We have innocent until proven guilty. Kangaroo courts aren't proper justice.

It's so easy to condemn GZ behind the safety of our computer screens, but it was GZ that was brutally attacked, and it was GZ that had to make a quick decision concerning his own safety.

If I had a gun (I don't, and I think it should be illegal to carry weapons in public) in that situation and a stranger attacked me, I'd make the attacker experience the job hazard of brutally attacking strangers. I have no obligation to sacrifice my safety for the benefit of the very same person who is doing this to me.

uponit7771

(90,304 posts)
60. MORE BULLSHIT!!! Stay off winger sights, Zimmerman KNEW the camera guy and KNEW the cameras weren't
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:44 AM
Aug 2013

...on that fucking night

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
80. I don't do winger sites
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:01 PM
Aug 2013

It was part of the police interview with GZ. It came out during the trial:

At one point during his interview with Zimmerman, Serino bluffed that he may have video of the incident shot on Martin’s cellphone.

"I believe [Zimmerman’s] words were, 'Thank God, I was hoping somebody would videotape it,'" said Serino. "Either he was telling the truth or he was a complete pathological liar. One of the two."

Serino says nothing indicated to him that Zimmerman was a liar.

"You think he was telling the truth?" asked O'Mara.

"Yes," said Serino.


http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/01/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-6

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
73. Jeantel's testimony was hardly worthless. And there was no evidence of an unprovoked ambush on GZ.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:25 PM
Aug 2013

None. Except George Zimmerman's own statements. Which defied logic.

Because if someone is being followed by a stranger for reasons unknown (which was the case with Trayvon), and you run from that stranger to escape that stranger, and you manage to escape that stranger....you do not suddenly decide to "double back" and attack the stranger who you desperately sought to escape and managed to lose. It defies every single ounce of logic. It makes no sense.

I believe George Zimmerman got out of the car with the express purpose of trying to detain Trayvon because he wanted to be the big neighborhood hero. After he lost him he was not returning to the car (nor was he looking for a street name in his own community of three streets where he'd lived for years). I believe Trayvon hid out until he thought the coast was clear and then sought to return home. Zimmerman then happened upon Trayvon and attempted to detain him. Trayvon resisted, there was a brief physical struggle between the two during which time Zimmerman sustained minor non-life threatening injuries, a frustrated Zimmerman then pulled his gun (hoping Trayvon would submit without further resistance), Trayvon started screaming and Zimmerman panicked and shot Trayvon dead.

Rachel Jeantel's testimony supported Zimmerman being the aggressor, and she did not waiver from her account at trial. Unfortunately, because she didn't speak the Queen's English and used certain urban terms (which I think made her more believable, not less), people somehow felt the need to discount her testimony.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
90. From that article:
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:04 AM
Aug 2013

"She went on to describe how she believed that Trayvon throwing the first punch was likely caused by Zimmerman attempting to grab and detain Martin."

It actually makes perfect sense.

George Zimmerman, a stranger to Trayvon Martin who had been chasing Trayvon for reasons unknown to him, reaches to grab Trayvon. Trayvon instinctively seeks to fight back against the strange man who had been chasing him for unknown reasons by throwing a punch.

Under that scenario, Zimmerman's still the aggressor. He's attempting to make physical contact on Trayvon, not even identifying himself. And Jeantel's testimony was consistent with Zimmerman not identifying himself as neighborhood watch, or identifying himself at all. Her testimony was that Trayvon yelled, "Why are you following me?", Zimmerman yelling back, "What are you doing here?" and then the cellphone gets dropped to the grass.

Which is where the cellphone was actually found, by the way.

Jeantel's story has always pegged Zimmerman as the aggressor.

uponit7771

(90,304 posts)
59. BULL FUCKING SHIT, If Z didn't know of TM's past its STUPID on its face to even inject it in what
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:42 AM
Aug 2013

...his analsys of suspicious actions that night ... this is level 10 ignorance on a 5 point scale

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
64. You're denying reality if you claim that people can't become suspicious based on other's behavior
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:17 PM
Aug 2013

His suspicions had nothing to do with TM's past. Whether his suspicion was justified is unknowable to us. TM had a past that would indicate that he may have behaved in a suspicious manner, but GZ doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed either.

Regardless, we have zero evidence that GZ did anything threatening to TM, but we know TM assaulted GZ at some point. In the kangaroo court that is the internet, GZ has been found guilty in some parts.

uponit7771

(90,304 posts)
65. Strawman noted, could care less about what COULD happen you infered that TMs past actions could have
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:32 PM
Aug 2013

...been a driver in the anyalsis of his behavior to Z that night and that's fucked up.

Looking at the facts TM had to be only

1 black
2 living

for Z to fuck with him...

Looking at the facts...

regards

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
68. How much less could you care?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:55 PM
Aug 2013

Since it is GZ that is being accused, the burden of proof is on the ones making the accusation. You clearly have no proof what-so-ever.

TM's recent behavior is evidence to us of potential present behavior. That evidence is used by us to determine the probability and plausibility of GZ's claims. Courts have more strict rules of evidence.

We do have proof that TM brutally attacked GZ and refused to stop, despite GZ's cries for help.

Here's what's really going on:

1 gun nut
2 guilty

GZ is not our type of guy, but even people that we don't agree with don't deserve to be brutally attacked.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
75. We don't know that Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman at some point.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:30 PM
Aug 2013

We know there was a physical altercation between the two, but we don't know that Trayvon actually attacked Zimmerman unprovoked.

Give me one piece of evidence other than Zimmerman's own word that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman unprovoked.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
79. The only part of the altercation that we have evidence for
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:48 PM
Aug 2013

is the part where GZ is being assaulted. We have no evidence for any other part of the altercation. We can imagine there was much more to the altercation and that GZ was at fault, but we lack such evidence.

This extreme hatred directed towards GZ may very well be totally unfounded. He's probably the victim of the original crime and also the victim of an unwarranted prosecution, though that is unknowable to us.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
82. No one eyewitnessed the actual beginning of the fight.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:46 PM
Aug 2013

One person "ear-witnessed", via telephone, the beginning of the altercation, but you've deemed her unreliable. And her story supports Zimmerman as the initial aggressor. But you've deemed her unreliable.

The facts clearly suggest Zimmerman had an aggressive state of mind that night: "These assholes, they always get away." "Fucking punks." Plus voluntarily getting out of his car. Armed.

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
28. I don't know
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:57 AM
Aug 2013

That him saying that on twitter would hold up the murder of young man as a race based crime. He had white friends right?

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
29. I have to laugh now.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:59 AM
Aug 2013

Zimmerman claimed to have black friends. Did that exonerate his motive?

And again, if Zimmerman had analogous posts on Twitter about black people...well, you know the rest.

JustAnotherGen

(31,781 posts)
30. Yeah
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:02 PM
Aug 2013

He still would have been found innocent.

He never made racial statements specifically towards Trayvon Martin.

I was being tongue in cheek - very often as a black American we hear "Once in the third grade I sat next to a black little boy for two weeks so I'm not a bigot towards black Americans and as a matter of fact that makes me an absolute expert on the Black American Experience."

It was for the benefit of a few people who I know read my posts and share my life experience.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
47. So is racism only manifested in internet posts?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:43 PM
Aug 2013

I find your insistence that there was no racial component to the Zimmerman case because he didn't make any internet statements indicating a hard bigotry towards African Americans puzzling.

uponit7771

(90,304 posts)
61. No, he didn't and "claimed" is different than the obvious hanging out with the race that you're
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:45 AM
Aug 2013

...supposedly have animous of

treestar

(82,383 posts)
57. A black teen, hater of white people, going to shoot a white person
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:29 AM
Aug 2013

would be a hate crime.

The difference with Zimmerman is that he is not a member of Stormfront or the KKK, who admits to being a racist. It's the same old, claiming not to be a racist. While seeing a black kid and assuming he's up to no good.

That made it a much more subtle and scenario, with a lot more issues. And the stand your ground law.

This case is straight up sociopath kills somebody, even if they did it because the guy was white, it's not as subtle. So there's no reason to be talking about it other than to condemn it as tragic.

uponit7771

(90,304 posts)
62. On of the people he was with was white, real hard to prove animous of a race based crime against
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:47 AM
Aug 2013

...a race when one of the participants themselves are white

Only winger news sources have reported the opposite....where are people gettign there info from

treestar

(82,383 posts)
71. Yep, wingers whine about how we don't care when black people kill white people
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 05:27 PM
Aug 2013

and pull out local ordinary cases as if they should have to do with Martin. And in this one, one of the kids is white, so it doesn't even apply.

I have a winger who goes to some right wing website where they collect every local story of black on white crime and winger posts each one to make it look like it is so common. And is why he carries a gun. Winger is the one getting himself riled up that there are black people who want to kill him.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
25. Of course that's correct. At this point, there is not enough info on the Lane
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:40 AM
Aug 2013

case to know whether race was a factor. Some of the tweets and posting by Edwards are racist. That doesn't mean that race was the motivating factor, but it can't be entirely discounted as being part of the mix.

I agree that this case is nothing like the Martin case which had a lot to do with systemic, institutionalized racism.

librechik

(30,674 posts)
36. this notion depends on the assumption that African Americans must all hate and want to kill whites
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:32 PM
Aug 2013

do they ever think past that to why that might be? Don't they have every right to hate the white race? (unlike the reverse, BTW)

Whenever a (rare, btw) example of black violence on whites happens the RW propaganda machine grips its jaws on it and never gives it up, no matter how much subsequent facts debunk them. It's a deliberate racial "tarring" on it's own, pretending to justify their hatred of blacks. It's deliberately provocative and catastrophizing to drum up fear.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
38. not automatically
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:46 PM
Aug 2013

but facts might come out that that turns out to be the case. I've heard some such facts, though it's too early to be very sure about anything.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
40. Exactly. It's too early.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:49 PM
Aug 2013

Yet you see people jumping the gun (pardon the pun) and immediately wanting to compare it to the Trayvon Martin case.

Even though this case has zero to do with the Trayvon Martin case and isn't even remotely similar to it.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
44. This must be my week for reccomending books.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:33 PM
Aug 2013
http://www.amazon.com/Cultural-History-Causality-Science-Systems/dp/0691115230/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377279049&sr=8-1&keywords=a+cultural+history+of+causality

A Cultural History of Causality: Science, Murder Novels, and Systems of Thought

This pioneering work is the first to trace how our understanding of the causes of human behavior has changed radically over the course of European and American cultural history since 1830. Focusing on the act of murder, as documented vividly by more than a hundred novels including Crime and Punishment, An American Tragedy, The Trial, and Lolita, Stephen Kern devotes each chapter of A Cultural History of Causality to examining a specific causal factor or motive for murder--ancestry, childhood, language, sexuality, emotion, mind, society, and ideology. In addition to drawing on particular novels, each chapter considers the sciences (genetics, endocrinology, physiology, neuroscience) and systems of thought (psychoanalysis, linguistics, sociology, forensic psychiatry, and existential philosophy) most germane to each causal factor or motive.

Kern identifies five shifts in thinking about causality, shifts toward increasing specificity, multiplicity, complexity, probability, and uncertainty. He argues that the more researchers learned about the causes of human behavior, the more they realized how much more there was to know and how little they knew about what they thought they knew. The book closes by considering the revolutionary impact of quantum theory, which, though it influenced novelists only marginally, shattered the model of causal understanding that had dominated Western thought since the seventeenth century.

madville

(7,404 posts)
52. I see your point but
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:13 AM
Aug 2013

We will find out more when confessions, statements, and testimony are available. I'm thinking the driver, charged with lesser crimes, could testify against the others and we will find out much more about what was happening in the car just before the shooting.

So far we know the shooter expressed a hatred for white people and then chose a random white victim to shoot. It is just as possible that they said "Let's kill the next white person we see" as "Let's kill the next person we see".

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
55. I'm pretty sure that if some white dude tweeted about how "nasty" Muslims were,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:46 AM
Aug 2013

and how much he "hated" them, and then went out and killed a Muslim in cold blood, claiming "boredom" as the reason, we would not have a thread full of DUers solemnly wondering whether or not this was a hate crime.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
66. Well said
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:35 PM
Aug 2013

I really don't get why people are so resistant to at least looking at the possibility that race played a factor.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
74. It's really beside the point what some DUers might think in such a hypothetical.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:28 PM
Aug 2013

As it relates to the real murder of Christopher Lane, there's still no evidence to have surfaced yet that actually suggests the suspects attacked Lane because he was white.

It could still surface, but it hasn't yet.

And until it does, people need not jump to conclusions.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
77. I guess you're right. Just because someone tweets that he "hates" people of a certain ethnic group,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:39 PM
Aug 2013

and that members of that group are "nasty", and then proceeds to murder a member of that ethnic group in cold blood, there is *no* reason to jump to the conclusion that the victim was targeted because he happened to be in that ethnic group. It could well have just been a simple coincidence.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
81. Show me the actual evidence that the murder itself was racially motivated.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:40 PM
Aug 2013

Not just that one of the three suspects had made some disgustingly racist tweets in the past, but that there was an actual racial component to the murder itself.

If you don't have actual evidence connecting some element of race to the murder itself, yes, you are prematurely jumping to conclusions.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
76. Except this black dude seems to have a white girlfriend and white friends.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:38 PM
Aug 2013

Make the issue a little more complicated.

http://thegrio.com/2013/08/23/christopher-lane-case-alleged-killers-tweets-reflect-racist-views-right-wing-pounces/

While some say Edwards has made “anti-white statements,” the 15-year-old has also posted Vine videos, tweets and retweets featuring what appears to be his white girlfriend and white friends.


and another mistake:

Both Fox and Friends and The Daily Caller originally reported that Lane was shot and killed by “three black teens,” reports Mediaite.

The Daily Caller originally ran a photo of the wrong Michael Jones, portraying him as African-American.

And the Drudge Report recently displayed only the two black suspects’ photos when reporting story.

However, Jones has been confirmed as a white male by the Duncan PD.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
83. Not necessarily.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:46 PM
Aug 2013

Haven't you heard the old racist defense: "Some of my best friends are (fill in the blank)." Hell, I've heard Zimmerman dated a black woman.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
89. Dissonance is where bigotry lives.
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:00 AM
Aug 2013

It's probably not wise to jump to conclusions either way in this case. I don't know who shot him or why. I'm just pointing out that a racists' motives and behavior are probably, imo, as complicated as any other person's.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
78. I don't get why when a white person kills a black person, everybody jumps to claim racism. . .
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:29 PM
Aug 2013

but when a black person kills a white person, everybody says "lets not jump to conclusions.

For example, everybody jumped to the conclusion that Zimmerman was based on racism, because it had to be with a white guy killing a Hispanic (including most likely the OP), but when a black guys post on twitter "90% of white ppl are nasty. #HATE THEM." or "“Ayeee I knocced out 5 woods since Zimmerman court! ” we have to pretend it is not racially based.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,155 posts)
88. Not sure where you are coming from...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:57 PM
Aug 2013

Zimmerman/Martin was a case of a "white guy killing a Hispanic"? What?

The Zimmerman case had a clear racial element to it because of the issue of racial profiling. I wouldn't necessarily call it a hate crime, because the evidence never suggested Zimmerman sought out to shoot and kill Trayvon because he was black, but I do think Zimmerman's preconceptions about young black males coupled with his volatile personality helped precipitate the killing. It went far beyond the fact that Zimmerman was white and Trayvon was black.

With the Lane case, it's just to early to tell.

But there are people who are chomping at the bit to make this case into "their own" Trayvon Martin case because of their own personal agendas and beliefs. They resented the Trayvon Martin case getting the attention that they did, so they'd like to cheapen it by comparing it to any case that comes along where a person of one race kills a person of another.

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