Calling Bradley Manning a She---Educate me DU.

[trumad]

I can't tell you how much I've learned on DU. I was rather politically incorrect in 2001 with the things I said on DU. Retard, Pussy, Bitch, words like that---but over the years I've done my best to eliminate hurtful words, etc.

So set me straight on the Bradley Manning is a she thing.

Can a Guy simply change his name to Chelsea and become a she.

Is it wrong to say--- no---he's still a Man, not a Woman.

OR--- is it up to the individual to change their gender orientation simply by saying so?

Like I said DU---educate me.

trumad

[bigtree]

1. I think it's proper to recognize how a person defines their gender, etc.

. . .when addressing them or referring to them - except, of course, if their former ID has some importance to a discussion, I'd think it was proper to cite their former identification.

[hfojvt]

248. heck, forget pronouns, I cannot get anybody to use my NAME

Everybody wants to call me Tom. I decided that was a name for a kid and when I turned 18 I wanted to be called Thomas. The world paid ZERO attention. What am I supposed to do, fight with everybody over that second syllable?

It is so odd, I will introduce myself as Thomas and two minutes later people will come back with Tom.

If I had wanted you to call me Tom, wouldn't I have introfriggingduced myself as Tom? Maybe I should take a page from Willie "don't call me Mays" Aikens.

[laundry_queen]

259. So true.

My dad and I both have names that are commonly shortened. My dad used the shortened version as a child but decided as an adult to use his full name. He still has people unable or unwilling to make the switch. I have NEVER gone by the shortened version of my name and yet that's what I often get called. It's annoying. I remember a doctor's office calling the shortened version of my name and I ignored them and feigned ignorance until they said my last (very unique) name and I said, OH, are you talking about ME? You got my first name wrong, did I write it down wrong? She never got my name wrong again.

But I can't believe I still deal with it to this day. The shortened version of my name is less common than the full version, so why do people keep using it? I think some people are more interested in what THEY want to call you than in what you want to be called, KWIM? A friend's mom decided she was going to come up with a nickname for my daughter because her name was 'too long' and she insisted on calling my daughter that nickname for years, even though all of us hated her nickname and no one ever used any nicknames with my daughter. I think it's a form of control for some people.

[hfojvt]

306. I see it as a respect thing, but I may be paranoid

it feels like people are disrespecting me, that perhaps as a little guy, I do not DESERVE a 2nd syllable in my name. I mean, I work with a Jonathan, and everybody calls him Jonathan, nobody shortens it to Jon.

But it is tough sometimes even for me, to not slip into calling a Matthew, "Matt" or calling a David "Dave". Maybe I should pay more attention to the INTENT of the speaker. To understand that they really are NOT trying to put me down by shortening my name, but dammit, why does everybody have to do it?

I mean you even introduce yourself.
"I'm Thomas."
and the first question is almost always.
"is it okay to call you Tom?" or "Do you go by Thomas or Tom?"

Maybe I should just respond by asking them THEIR name. Then when they say "I am Barack" I can ask, do you go by Barack or Bar? Is it okay to call you Bar? Is it Steve or Ste? John or Jo? I need to know because I am too fucking lazy to say the last part of your name!!!

But then again, I bet people named William really have that problem, isn't that right, Bill? And what about a Timothy? I bet their name is always made more tiny. And Jonathans usually are Jon even though their name is really not a formal form of John but actually a long form of Nathan.

[laundry_queen]

311. I think it's also generational

I have relatives with names like Matthew and William and they are little kids - no one under the age of 60 shortens their names. But the older crowd who grew up with shortened names - the James/Jimmys, the Joseph/Joes, the Michael/Mikes in the family who are all seniors all shorten other peoples names. Often, the parents of the little kids will say something..."We like to call him William not Billy" and that's the end of it. And with my kids - no one in their classes have a tendency to shorten people's names. They all go by their full names - even the Christophers and Alexandras. So I think a part of it is generational.

[NightWatcher]

2. I call people whatever they want to be called

I knew a Stephen that on the weekends was Stephanie. It was their groove, so that's what I called em.

If someone wants to be called Senior Ham Sandwich, I'll oblige.

[trumad]

5. Question is---

Can you flip your gender just by saying so and expect people to being calling you a she or he?

I consider Manning a he.... is that wrong.

[KittyWampus]

15. at this point, yes. The physique is not the de terming factor in gender identity.

[pnwmom]

262. Yes -- the physique would not determine which gender a person identifies with.

But doesn't science classify a person's gender according to their physique?

I'm happy to call Chelsea whatever she wants, but I understand why this issue is confusing.

[winter is coming]

17. The question isn't what gender you think Manning is; it's what gender Manning

thinks she is. If someone tells me they feel they're not the gender they were born with, who the hell am I to insist on labeling with their birth gender?

[Lex]

25. +1000

[Brickbat]

29. Another way to look at it is that Manning isn't flipping her gender; society did when she was born

in a male body. Her brain has been telling her for her whole life that she's female, while society has told her, nope, you've got a penis, you're male. What she has done has essentially said, "OK, society, I may *look* male, but I've known my whole life that I'm a woman; would you please help me by addressing me as such? And then, I'd like some help getting my body to match up with my brain."

[HardTimes99]

197. Great post. Thanks for humanizing the issue in such eloquent terms. - nt

[Brickbat]

264. Thank you!

I will admit to having had a long evolution on the issue.

[dbackjon]

231. Excellent post

[Brickbat]

265. Thank you.

[RedCappedBandit]

240. ...

[Brickbat]

267. ...

Nice avatar!

[geek tragedy]

35. Would you consider someone who came out of the closet still heterosexual? nt

[trumad]

108. A bit different don't you think?

[geek tragedy]

134. Nope. I used to think along lines similar to what you're saying, and it does

take an extra step in thinking about things from the perspective of the other person.

Remember that sex and gender are two different things.

Chelsea Manning's sex is still male, but her gender is female.

[RKP5637]

143. That, is a very good way of looking at it IMO! n/t

[gollygee]

58. She isn't "flipping her gender"

She's letting us know what her gender is. She hadn't let anyone know before so no one could refer to her by the correct gender, but now that we know, we can.

[Egalitarian Thug]

78. You consider yourself a Trumad. I think you're a Chet. Am I right to insist that you are Chet?

You look like a Chet and you have the characteristics of a Chet. Since I don't actually know you at all, who's the asshole in this scenario? What does it cost me to simply call you Trumad?

[freeplessinseattle]

111. :):):) eom

[CreekDog]

232. Trumad, understand the logic here, who knows better, you or the person?

just like what race would you refer to them as? who decides that, you or them?

who knows better?

remember back in 2008, the ridiculous people here that refused to say that Barack Obama was black, because they said he was half-white? who decides that? he does. if you disagree, just who is the most expert, you or that person?

i can say one thing with assurance, the more expert opinion about someone else is not going to be yours.

take this with all due respect.

[Voice for Peace]

309. When in doubt, and whenever possible,

I ask the person directly. In this case
Bradley/Chelsea has stated her wishes.

and even if it feels awkward, people
will get used to it. It seems as simple
as asking Thomas.. do you want me to
call you Tom or Thomas? Respect how
a person self-identifies. It is not any
more complicated than that.

Whether male or female is nobody else's
business.

[nomorenomore08]

317. The brain (or psyche, or whatever) doesn't match the body. That's the key to gender dysphoria.

So "on the inside" - so to speak - she's female and presumably always has been. Adjustment to a new norm is totally understandable and forgivable, but one should really make the effort, at least.

[hfojvt]

251. I'd like you to call me

Bones


other guy: Ask him why they call him Bones.
Gator: Why do they call you Bones?
Lurch: Because I tell 'em to.

[TwilightGardener]

3. He was tried and sentenced as Bradley Manning. He certainly has the right to change his name

for the future and demand to be called whatever he wishes, but because he gained notoriety (and was charged, tried and convicted) under his previous identity, he won't be able to shed that.

[Bluenorthwest]

56. Of course the militray context provides easy language outs for those who are unsure or even those

who don't want to acknowledge her true gender to simply use the rank and last name, Private Manning is Private Manning, first names are not commonly used in the military anyway and anyone who can not construct a sentence without gender specific pronouns simply does not wish to do so. Manning decides Manning's gender. It's up to Manning, not to you. So you type 'he' about as often as you can manage in your post, which could read 'Manning certainly has the right to a name change' and so forth. The extra helping of 'he' you insert is unneeded and suggests agenda.
Manning has very specifically asked that mail sent to the prison be sent to 'Private Bradley Manning' because the military will not acknowledge Chelsea Manning. She's not even trying to 'shed' that, in fact she's instructing people very clearly in which contexts they will have to use her old name due to bigoted policies.
There have been others who were more famous prior to transitioning who had very little trouble getting the proper pronouns used in the press. Wendy Carlos had sold millions of records as Walter Carlos. Lana Wachowski wrote and produced hit films such as the Matrix as Larry, with brother Andy, they were called the Wachowski Brothers, now simply the Wachowskis. Not many problems with folks affecting a huge confusion as to what to call Lana in the press.

[JustAnotherGen]

4. Fair questions

My issue is I can't go back and change the 'court case' - the records on file. In terms of the case - we can't just erase who did it. It was a man named Bradley.

But post case - In the past two days Chelsea has taken a stand - and I have to respect what she is saying in terms of who she is.

When a person states their gender - I respect it from that day forward. Small children 'just know' - and often make verbal their gender. If I respect it from a 4 year old - then I have to respect it from a grown person.

[trumad]

8. Good post.

and makes sense.

If a person feels that they are a she or a he---that's how they feel and I should respect that.

[TDale313]

22. That's really all it comes down to.

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:02 AM - Edit history (1)

And yeah, gender's a lot more complex than the physical body. IMO, it never hurts to say "This is who they're telling me they are. Who am I to argue with that?"

[JustAnotherGen]

80. Should be a mantra for everyone

"This is who they're telling they are. Who am I to argue with that?"

[Little Star]

105. Bingo! :)

[librechik]

175. to some folks (not to me) this will prove how twisted and mentally disturbed Manning was made

by his mistreatment at the hands of his jailers. Maybe they will feel shame, lol. It makes the right wing look really bad, and the military seems to becoming quite accommodating to Ms. Chelsea. If it's new policies, then thank goodness.

But what do I know? it's all a vicious Roman spectacle with no redeeming value and way too much cruelty. we should all be embarrassed that we allow it. But what can we do to stop it? (I will keep asking)

[TransitJohn]

6. I'm no expert, so this is how I see it, probably not what is right

But, I look at physical reality. Is the person's body male or female? I'm sure that'll be wrong, though.

[trumad]

9. Now---if there is a sex change---that changes things, correct?

[TransitJohn]

11. to me, exactly so. n/t

eom

[Ms. Toad]

83. No.

As others have said -

gender is not about plumbing or body parts.

My high school sweetheart is living as a woman, and all her legal documents identify her as a woman, and she still has all her original plumbing.

it is about identity (what she tells you she is), and expression (how she presents herself to the world).

[mockmonkey]

127. It doesn't happen overnight

There are psychological evaluations that are done usually by a therapist that specializes in Gender Identity Disorder. (G.I.D.)

If it is determined that the person has G.I.D. than they are then able to see a G.P. for hormones or testosterone.

The individual will then be expected to live for one year as the gender they identify with while seeing a therapist.

They can have their names changed and depending on the State, they can have the gender changed on their State ID or Drivers License.

If they can afford to have surgery (most can't) they "might" be allowed to then change their Birth Certificate, of course depending on their state laws.

Changing Gender has nothing to do with Sexual Orientation. If they are attracted to males or females or both that doesn't change.

The largest issue for society is bathroom use. Some Woman (even some in DU) seem to worry about being raped by someone who are pretending to be Transgender. I guess separate single use unisex bathrooms works out the best.
It's not as big an issue for those Female to Male (FTM) because they can pass easier.

There is so much that goes into all of this and it can not be answered in one response. I don't know enough about Manning's case and unless we were privy to her psychological exams no one here knows either. I assume she hasn't started hormones unless she is using non-prescribed methods.

The Transgendered people that I know would rather keep it a secret that they are because as soon as people know they treat them differently. Sometimes that ends up with bad things happening to them.


My thoughts are:

If we are beings that are made up of chemicals and electrical impulses why is it so hard to believe that sometimes things just get routed differently during gestation. But instead we just go by or own experiences and decide because we don't have those feelings then "they" must be making them up.

Sorry, I'm not expressing this very well.

[Bay Boy]

289. Can I assume that people who are better versed on this subject...

...would like to see GID as something other than Gender Identity Disorder?

[mockmonkey]

304. Good Question

I think that they don't want it to be considered a mental disorder just like being gay used to be considered a disorder by the APA.

But because of GID some insurance companies may pay for some of the costs of sex reassignment. Plus you might have some HIPAA protections.

I know more about Female to Males and the costs associated with that. You need to pay for the needles and testosterone and medically you still go to GP for pap smears and blood tests. Insurance will probably not pay for a hysterectomy and the exams are always questioned by the insurance companies as to why the GP is performing them on a male patient.

I'm not even up to date on a lot of this stuff. I got into this subject because of relationships/friendships that I was involved in starting in 1999.

GID is now called Gender Dysphoria.

When you add Intersex to the mix that makes it even more complicated because people like everything to be pink or blue.

"In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order."

"So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex."

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

I know some people on DU think that others are being too PC concerning this subject but if they knew the hurt and pain they are inflicting on others even on a message board they might change, but not likely. I'm not too confident concerning the internet and its use to hurt others anonymously. But people do learn, Keith Olbermann used to use the "Mann Coulter" reference on his show and later changed it to "Coultergeist" and even in DU it's not said as much as it used to be. The same with the Adam's apple remarks which both sexes are actually born with, during puberty males Adam's apples grow in size.

Someone mentioned in one of the threads that the subject was scary. I don't know what scares them about it other than they might not know for sure what someones gender was or is.

What is scary is injecting testosterone that might lead to liver damage and increases the chance for stroke or heart attack or taking hormones and having surgeries that could kill you. But for many it's either that or suicide.

I have a feeling that Chelsea might have thought that joining the Army might change her feelings and make her the man society expected her to be. I have read of others that had done the macho thing to the extreme and in the end they had to transition or else. If the government wanted to keep secrets they sure do a lousy job of knowing the people (snowden) who have access to those secrets.

On Youtube there are many young adults posting their transitions and that makes it a bit more personal. Of course some will say that people transition for the attention that's just stupid.

I don't think I had a good answer to your question so I just ranted.

[backscatter712]

14. Gender is determined in the brain, not the crotch. n/t

[MNBrewer]

46. +1

Gender, sex, and sexual orientation are 3 different things that interact in complex ways.

[RKP5637]

158. +1, n/t

[Ms. Toad]

64. You are correct - that is wrong.

Gender is not body, it is mind. Individuals who are trans* are born with bodies which do not match their perception of gender. Some trans* individuals change their bodies, others do not. That is a personal preference (or preference limited by the reality of the cost of medical care).

But if a person tells you their gender identity and preferred pronouns, it is hurtful to debate whether you should second guess who they tell you they are.

[idwiyo]

174. It is wrong, please have a look at my post #167 for an explanation why.

[railsback]

7. Yeah, I'm in the dark on this one, too.

Physically, its impossible. A name change is pretty simple.

[cali]

18. gender identity is not about plumbing n/t

[railsback]

30. So, it would seem, based on these parameters

that I could declare my daughter a minority so she can take advantage of affirmative action programs to get a scholarship at a nice college. Not saying I would, but seeing how the physical make up of a body is only a state of mind, I would have that option.

[Lex]

34. Ignorant analogy. nt

[railsback]

49. I would expect a response like that

because its impossible for a man to declare himself a woman when he's still a man unless society overlooks the physicality of the situation and accepts the mental state. Therefore, we could all declare ourselves to be whomever we wanted to be… just because we wanted to be… or felt we should be. If my daughter really believed that she was actually an African American, who am I to tell her she's wrong?

[Lex]

79. You should educate yourself.

Really, you should.

[railsback]

94. I would say the same to you

Really, you should.

[Lex]

99. I already have. You've demonstrated your lack of knowledge

on the topic. There are plenty of links in this thread that you could read in order to bring yourself up to speed on the topic.

[Egalitarian Thug]

132. Well then maybe you should explain to the rest of us why you're right. Because what you've

written so far looks an awful lot like stubborn ignorance.

[railsback]

156. Maybe you should explain why I'm wrong

If physicality is based merely on thought alone, then why wouldn't that apply to anyone?

[enlightenment]

171. If physicality is based on

plumbing alone, then men who lose their genitalia - by misfortune, through cancer, etc - are women afterword, right?

And women who lose their reproductive organs and breasts to cancer - they're men, right?

You are being deliberately obtuse. If you can't bother to educate yourself, please keep your bigotry to yourself instead of spewing it on DU.

[Ms. Toad]

189. And to add on -

Body parts do not necessarily conform to legal gender, even when we are not talking about accidental loss of genitalia.

A friend of mine still has all of her original (male) plumbing, and is both living as and legally recognized as a woman.

[Egalitarian Thug]

204. You have an entire thread full of people trying to do just that so you don't even have to bother

doing your own work. But of course learning is the last thing you want, isn't it?

Stubborn, deliberate, ignorance with as much offensiveness as you can work in.

Typical.

[railsback]

223. Ah, you assume I don't like so many assume the NSA is spying on everyone

I'm not in the assumption business. I do like to read, and do like to find logical answers without jumping off cliffs. Assumptions are the most offensive of offenses. So please forgive me if I question a man declaring himself a woman while being physically a man because he believes he is a she. Why exactly would a mental state only have validity with sexual orientation, and why are we expected to accept that at face value? So Manning wants to live his life as a woman, so we immediately drop Bradley for Chelsea, and drop 'he' for 'she'. Its like magic. And what drives a transgender man to want to 'live like a woman'? Is it a biological need to endure years of going through menstruation, bearing children and raising them - or is it society's manufactured perception of womanhood, consisting of fashion?

Oh, well, its not like I'm going to get any answers here, other than 'STFU, you homophobe, and just accept it'.

[cali]

36. no, you could not. Gender Dysphoria

isn't remotely related to the example you give.

you are shockingly ignorant. why don't you remedy that- if it's not rooted in bias.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/

[railsback]

55. Yeah, seems like the DU is trapped in another quagmire of illogical thought

just to make a case. But really, if who you are is nothing but mental, then what really is the difference?

[cali]

63. well, you are trapped in "illogical thought"- at best

you didn't address the material in the op.

Again, educate yourself. There's lots out there and it's no longer terribly controversial.

[oldhippie]

110. Thank you. That was the case I was trying to make ....

... but you did a better job. My post went a way other than expected. Illogical thought to defend a specific case is rampant sometimes. Oh well, I'll quit. I really had no strong feelings for PVT Manning either way.

[maddezmom]

115. Did you read the comments? Did you learn anything?

Response to sufrommich (Reply #61)Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:59 AM
LiberalAndProud (9,996 posts)
84. The comments were interesting.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Regretfully, the poster asks a question that tends to dehumanize a certain segment of our population. I believe it was asked in ignorance, not intent for harm. Nevertheless, it is hurtful. I must vote to hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Apologies to anyone offended, but I thought the post was an honest query, no insult intended.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Good Lord,hide.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I understand the concern over this post, but the poster has addressed the fact that this is a real question for him. I believe that DU does have a purpose of education. There is plenty of opportunity for education here by other posters responding as to why this is inappropriate and giving suggestions for a better way of communicating this situation. I, myself, remember when Chaz Bono changed, and I wasn't sure how to phrase things. I was actually educated by other DU members, and I want this person to be given the same opportunity. I simply don't find this poster's intent to be hateful in nature.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I hope this is a joke post. How disgraceful to call anyone "it".
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I sympathize with the alerter, and can't vouch for the intentions of the poster; but I think a lot of people whose lives have not brought them close to these issues before are genuinely confused, and it's only by allowing questions like these that they can be enlightened.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. - Mark Twain
Reply to this post
Back to OP Alert abuse Link to post in-thread Super powers

[oldhippie]

159. Actually, I haven't received the DU mail results of that alert yet ....

Very strange, as it has been over a half hour, and it is still not in my inbox. Jury system must be hot today.

And yes, I learned a lot. I will modify my behavior to fit the standard.

[maddezmom]

161. You won't because it was not hidden but I think the comments are worth reading

[oldhippie]

173. Normally don't you get an email .....

... when a post was alerted on and went to a jury? Even if it survived? I am sure I have seen some that said a post was not hidden. I'll admit I've has posted alerted on before. Survived some, not others.

[maddezmom]

176. The only time you rec a message on apost that was not hidden is if you were a juror

[oldhippie]

186. OK, thanks. nt

nt

[idwiyo]

180. have a look at post #167, please.

[railsback]

345. Ignorant? All of you say its 'mental'

LoL. Crazy.

[NuclearDem]

104. Gender has nothing to do with the body.

Race, unfortunately as it exists as a bullshit social construct, does.

[Inkfreak]

321. I'll tell ya why this response is great.

Because the poster you're responding to made a statement in my mind that I kinda agreed with. I thought to myself "hmm, that sounds somewhat true." But all the responses were snarky & outragy(just made that word up).

Then I read your post and was immediately swayed to correct myself. You are so right. And it makes sense to me. More so than the poster I thought had made a point. And this is why I enjoy DU. Wade thru the bullshit and you will come to some great thoughts & ideas. Thanks!

ETA that I also looked up the word gender. It was enlightening actually. I think a lot of people don't understand the true definition.

[nomorenomore08]

319. That's not just apples and oranges, that's apples and... lugnuts or something...

Gender dysphoria is a medical and psychiatric condition recognized by any legitimate professional, which requires transitioning to the opposite gender as treatment. Your hypothetical scenario is just bizarre, almost a non sequitur really.

[railsback]

324. In other words, its purely a state of mind

believing that the body you inhabit doesn't fit what the mind is telling you. How would that not encompass everything? Again, society has created the female culture - clothing, make-up, hairstyles, how they should act, etc. That doesn't make a woman a woman. It would be apples and oranges IF Manning had a burning maternal instinct to bear children.

[nomorenomore08]

325. By that logic, any other psychiatric disorder is "purely a state of mind."

People with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder need treatment, and so do people with gender dysphoria. Transitioning to the opposite gender is the treatment in this case.

And "a burning maternal instinct to bear children" is what defines womanhood? That would be news to most, if not all, of the women I know.

[railsback]

327. What makes a woman a woman, then?

Its not the clothes she wears, or the foods she eats, the hair she wears, or the movies she watches… I'm just curious. It would seem that society defines what a woman is, when in biological terms, there's really only one difference between the genders.

[nomorenomore08]

328. That's a very complicated question. It's a combo of anatomy, hormones, social roles etc.

But no one of those things by itself solely defines what a "man" or "woman" is. Which is why I would think that, if anything, addressing people how they prefer to be addressed actually simplifies matters.

[railsback]

329. Which brings me back to this:

If I lived in China for a while, learned the language, lived the culture to the point where I believed I was actually Chinese, shouldn't I be able to declare myself Asian?

I'm not trying to be an a**hole, either. It just seems people are willing to overlook so much to justify the means. IMO, Manning is a man, a gay man, who prefers to live the culture of a woman, a culture created by society, not nature. And people have the choice to address him as Bradley, the man, or as Chelsea, the woman. There is no either/or.

[nomorenomore08]

330. They have the choice. But I figure it's common courtesy to call her what she wants to be called.

And I've never heard of any person who was "trans-racial" or "trans-ethnic." Nor is it recognized as a legitimate disorder by any professional I know of. I kind of get what you're saying, but gender dysphoria really is its own special case.

You're as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. But speaking for myself, I'd rather listen to people and follow their lead, as far as how they define themselves. I really don't think it's my place to tell them they're wrong.

[railsback]

332. I have no problem with your reasoning

Thanks for the civility.

[nomorenomore08]

333. Honestly, as a heterosexual, cisgender man, this stuff is as alien to my experience as to anyone's.

Which is why I don't presume to think I know everything - or really, much of anything - about it. Like I said, I try to follow others' lead.

[Cha]

334. apples and oranges as it is said, railsback.

I think we'd have to ask Chelsea Manning how she feels about it. Someone else cannot have walked in her shoes since childhood and declare how this should be addressed.

I think transgender is created by nature.. it just didn't get it right the first time. If we as intelligent being can fix that .. then all the better.

Yeah, people address others how they want all the time.. whether it's respectful or not is another matter.

[Vanje]

340. I have not had a burning desire to bear children

and I am absolutely a woman.
It is not society that defines my worthiness to be considered female Its me.


But, DO double down.
Maybe its pizza night.
I hope so.

[railsback]

344. Double down on what, exactly?

[Vanje]

339. ......

You suck.

[Matariki]

258. Can you define it then?

Is it purely a subjective thing?

[cali]

268. Gender Identity is subjective. What else could it be?

Only the individual can tell you if they feel that they're male or female. Gender Dysphoria is the feeling that you're one gender while trapped in the body of the sex you don't identify with.

[Matariki]

275. I looked up the definition of the word 'gender'

And while I think there is a social aspect that you are ignoring which has to be considered in connection to a person's subjective feelings about themselves (which is at the root of any argument about this) - the dictionary definition is in agreement with you.

I've seen times where two sets of values collided around this issue - feminist pagans performing public, nude, female only ritual and the uproar it caused when pre-op transexuals were excluded. Who was right in this instance?

gen·der
a. (in many languages) a set of classes that together include all nouns, membership in a particular class being shown by the form of the noun itself or by the form or choice of words that modify, replace, or otherwise refer to the noun, as, in English, the choice of he to replace the man, of she to replace the woman, of it to replace the table, of it or she to replace the ship. The number of genders in different languages varies from 2 to more than 20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness. The most familiar sets of genders are of three classes (as masculine, feminine, and neuter in Latin and German) or of two (as common and neuter in Dutch, or masculine and feminine in French and Spanish).
b. one class of such a set.
c. such classes or sets collectively or in general.
d. membership of a word or grammatical form, or an inflectional form showing membership, in such a class.

[idwiyo]

179. Please have a look at the post #167 for an explanation.

[Xyzse]

10. I sincerely don't know

Currently my address to Manning is merely Manning.

I don't intend to put gender in to it at the moment. I am taking the wait and see approach.

[Lex]

28. Wait and see what?

[Xyzse]

32. What others call Manning

Once that has been established, then I might call Manning that as well.

For now, Manning will be just Manning for me, while I try to avoid gender distinction.

Actually, a friend of mine who I lost contact with just recently messaged me.
Before we lost contact(I lost my notebook with her phone number) she was mentioning how her wife wanted to do a sex change operation.

I am at the moment, since I have not been told if that has gone through or not, referring to her by name and name alone.
Since I have no idea what gender distinction I should use at the moment. So, until I hear from them directly how they address each other, I can only go by name.

With Manning, I am waiting a bit longer. I would more likely than not call Manning she/her and so forth very soon. I mean, Manning is already undergoing treatment and made the active decision to do so. It would take me a little while to fully convert my way of thinking. Besides, until Manning is further along the proccess, I do not know if this is a fully fleshed out decision or if a change of mind would still happen. Chances are, there won't be a change in decision, but like I said, till Manning gets further along, I don't know yet.

[oldhippie]

37. Me too ......

... I wouldn't want to have to decide myself. I'll wait and see what is acceptable by those on DU.

[Xyzse]

42. I placed more of my reasoning in my edit

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Why would you not simpy ask your friend what forms of address they'd like used? Too much?

Manning has asked to be called Chelsea and referenced as a woman in pronoun use. She has also thoughtfully pointed out that the military prison will not acknowledge her identity and thus when contacting her via the prison she has asked that we use her previous name. It is very clear, not rocket science and it should have nothing to do with what YOU want to say or what people on DU want, it is about what your friends want and what Chelsea wants for themselves.
Amazing to me that people are so withholding they can refuse to call a person by the name the person tells them is their name. 'Oh, no, I think I know your name better than you do!!'.

[Xyzse]

101. Because she hasn't told me yet

So, for now, I am in wait. Till I am told, I do not want to presume.

As for Chelsea, I guess that is what I refer to her as now.

[Bluenorthwest]

147. I did not ask 'why don't you presume' I asked why you do not inquire as to their wishes.

It is you who has the question, it is you who should ask it. There is no presumption in asking. I note you did not bother to mention if your friend has started to use a name fitting to their correct gender, that is if a person changes their name you can easily assume that all the accessories such as pronouns follow along.
So I repeat, why not simply ask the question? It is your question to ask.

[Xyzse]

155. Well, it hasn't gotten to that point yet

I just received email contact again. That was only yesterday.
And we haven't been able to talk on the phone yet.
That's why the question has not been asked.

She just sent a picture of herself and with her wife/husband next to her.
I'll do so when I get the chance.

[Ms. Toad]

50. It is disrepectful both to Manning

and to trans* individuals and those who love them on DU to reject her directly stated expression for female gender pronouns.

You should always use the pronoun requested by the individual. Slips in face to face conversations may happen from time to time, but there is really no excuse for using the wrong gender online where you have the luxury of time to re-read posts before hitting "post."

[Xyzse]

76. Thanks

Like I mentioned, it would take some time. But since she has expressed her opinion, I am slowly doing my transition.

I mean, I don't have any problems with that decision, and if that is what makes her happy, go for it.

Still, I hope you don't mind, I support her decision but some of us don't know the right protocols and how to address this. Consider it as something as a new experience and we're still figuring things out.

[Ms. Toad]

90. Talking about the past is more complex

and even talking about her in a live conversation about the present, slips are understandable. But online, you can take a few minutes, check your post for gender pronouns, and retrain yourself.

[Xyzse]

106. Understood

Which is why from my post to you I've been referring to Chelsea as her. As for my prior post, I don't feel right editing it more since it was a means of transition.

With my other issue, I am still waiting to be told what to call my friend's wife/husband. Since the conversation has not gotten to that point yet. So I don't know, and don't really know how to bring it up. In that, I wait.

[Ms. Toad]

112. Most trans* people (or spouses of trans* people)

don't mind being asked about preferred gender pronoun.

[Xyzse]

118. Once that comes up in the conversation I would ask

I mean, we just started talking again in email, so once she comes back, I'll ask.

[idwiyo]

181. If you are interested to know please have a look at the article in post #167

[Xyzse]

194. Thanks

I just go by what she wants. Is what I've been told to do from the replies I've been given.

[idwiyo]

200. I beleive it's a right thing to do because of what Chelsea asked us to do. The article simply

explains the genetic base of Chelsea's decision.

[Xyzse]

205. Well, it is more in regards to respect for me.

It doesn't even have to explain the genetics or anything for me. If that is what makes her happy, then fine. It is none of my business any how.

Still, I tend to wait, usually until I am told otherwise.

Like I said to others here, someone like me, when it is something new, we wait till we figure out what seems to be the most correct course of action. I'll adjust as new information comes in.

For this, well, the decision has been made.

[idwiyo]

212. NP, I am definitely cool with that and just like you I will treat Ms Chelsea Manning as a female

because she asked and because to me its enough.

I provided the article because majority of the people who are not familiar with this subject typically think it's 'all in a head' thing.

[backscatter712]

12. The only person with the right to determine Chelsea Manning's gender identity is Chelsea herself.

And she's making this public change because in her mind, she is a woman, and has been all her life.

The life of transgender people can be extraordinarily difficult. They're under intense pressure to behave as someone they're not.

So, yes, I will say it is absolutely Chelsea's inalienable right to determine her own gender identity.

[alan_phillips]

13. The fact that this has turned into such a big issue

tells a lot about the way of thinking. It should never be about someones gender, race, sexual orientation, or any other way of identifying yourself. The actions are separate from the person. Pvt. Manning has not had a sex change, he still has the same parts as before, he just asked to be referred to as a she. This does not change the facts of the case. If he wants to be referred to as she, fine, but that doesn't make his/her case any different. The info that was leaked varied from things that needed to be fixed, to crimes that should have been punished. The problem with this case is that the people doing the crimes in the leaked information were never spoke of again. The he/she thing should not matter, and those who want to keep bringing it up and making a big deal of it should have more respect for the actual crimes that occurred and try and have a good debate where we can state our opinions of not only what was revealed, but also what we think should have been done after it all came out. We cannot change what has happened, but we can look for good ideas to fix it and keep the same actions from re-occurring so that no one feels the need in the future to have to release secrets to save lives, because the crimes are not committed again.

Sorry if some of that is worded weird. I have difficulty sometimes articulating my thoughts in writing.

[Safetykitten]

16. I have always used He until the person themselves said it was ok to say She or visa versa.

since I do not know Manning personally, I would think, and correct me if i am wrong, that Manning would be a he until he makes known that he would offically like to be known as she...which in this case being in prison would be difficult to say the least and the prison not willing to help in his gender change.

On edit, I have not been in the news loop on Manning, but she wants to be known as Chelsea. So it's Chelsea. And she is a she.

[NuclearDem]

19. Simple way to look at this

If someone wants to be called John, would you call them Bob?

[Safetykitten]

24. Exactly.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Please use the pronouns Chelsea has requested. n/t

[The Link]

26. Would you hate Manning as much?

[MjolnirTime]

33. I don't hate him. But he is guilty. He even apologized.

Does his sexuality negate his crime?

[Ms. Toad]

44. It is not sexuality.

It is gender identity or expression.

And - again - please use the pronouns she has requested be used.

[MNBrewer]

52. Total confusion here, isn't it?

what does "sexuality" even mean? Sexual orientation?

Gender
Sex
Sexual Orientation

3 different things.

[MjolnirTime]

59. Why is LGBT one term? Quit splitting hairs.

The problem with Manning is not gender.

It's leaking government secrets.

It all comes back to that, and it's a crime.

Why convolute it?

[markpkessinger]

150. LGBT is not "one term" . . .

. . . nor is it clinical. It is a political acronym that encompasses four distinct groups: women who are sexually attracted to women, men who are sexually attracted to men, men and women who are sexually attracted to both sexes, and transgendered persons. It is used in political contexts because, as it happens, bigotry against any one of the four groups nearly always coincides with bigotry against the other three. Those of us who happen to belong to one of those groups realized a long time ago that our fortunes in the fight against bigotry for who we are rise or fall with the other three groups. As others have said, you need to educate yourself.

[LostOne4Ever]

312. Haven't they also added a Q

To designate everyone who does not fall neatly into the previous categories such as asexual individuals.

So it should now be LGBTQ correct?

[Ms. Toad]

72. Sexuality is related to the third.

But broader.

Gender has to do with how you see yourself or present yourself to the world (Identity). Sex has to do with body parts (or in common vernacular, perhaps, sexual activity). Sexual orientation has to do with the gender of the people to whom you are attracted (activity/relationships - or the potential for activity/relationships).

Whatever sexuality is, it isn't the first of the three.

[DevonRex]

307. Ms. Toad, I am bookmarking this thread just so I can

read all your responses when I have the time to think and am not too tired to do it. You're good at explaining things. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to explain. You've always been fair, too. That really doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. Just something I admire. It's a good day for me to tell people I appreciate them.

[Ms. Toad]

310. Thank you.

Both (the effort to explain things and to be fair) are things I work hard at - I'm glad to hear it comes across that way.

[Bluenorthwest]

95. HER gender identity is not the same as HER sexuality. I have no idea what Chelsea's orientation

might be. Nor do you. But your persistence in using male pronouns about her certainly suggests you hold animosity toward her which if not about her gender identity is obviously using her gender as a device to jab at her.

[DevonRex]

241. She's guilty. She apologized. She might not have committed the crimes, IMO,

if it hadn't been for what she's been through in life.

Chelsea has grown up and matured through all of this. She has shown that she's strong and has a good heart. I believed her explanation and apology. Her intent was not to hurt this nation. But she understands how grave the consequences are and still might be. She has taken responsibility. She has shouldered that burden in a way I have never seen before. I am actually very, very impressed with her.

Her gender identity is her own. It was an issue long before the trial. Her defense team chose to expose it and Chelsea has embraced it. We can at least be supportive of that. It sounds as if she didn't get much support growing up.

One thing in her favor, too. Her superior officer said she was really good at her job. That she also saved lives. So, let that add some balance to the way we think of her.

[LittleBlue]

238. We're finally rid of that troll

Thank god, he didn't disguise it at all.

[DevonRex]

244. After I just spent all that time

explaining to him why his whole tone was wrong in addition to the pronouns. I hate when that happens. Should have read your reply first.

[idwiyo]

245. Finally!

[treestar]

40. That is a point I noticed

With these leakers, gay, straight or transgender, always the same thing. Stay in the headlines, have some new element to the drama.

I think Chelsea should have the right to be a woman. Just interested in why it comes up just now, when there is drama to be had - male or female prison? Should the state pay for the hormone treatment and surgery?

[randome]

48. We should also beware of making Manning into a celebrity.

She has had a rough go trying to define her gender and I'm not convinced she has it figured out now. This is not the time to 'rally' to her side and perhaps engender (pun) greater confusion.

On the other hand, I don't really care any more than I care about anyone else in a similar situation who is unknown to me. Which means I do care but only in an abstract sense.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[treestar]

107. I can see where the celebrity is getting the issue talked about

Which is generally a good thing.

A famous actor might be a better example though. Manning has committed a crime and is being sent to jail. End of drama and story, unless there's a new chapter.

[Bluenorthwest]

114. Of course and as you both know, the gender issues were used as part of the defense in the trial

and because of that the facts became public. The poster you are speaking with has said 'gay people have plenty of rights' here on DU. 'There is only one right you do not have' she says, when in fact there is legal discrimination in all areas against GLBT people in 29 States and no Federal protection of any kind from that discrimination. The company you keep, man. It is what it is.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2952192

[One_Life_To_Give]

113. Advice of councel?

Chelsea coming to court in the female dress uniform might have held sway with the jury, positive or negative. Probably would have made her look narcissistic and hence could of had negative affects upon her defense. However now is the time where the circumstances of her incarceration may be debated, where she is housed and the manner of her medical care are appropriate topics at this time.

[Ms. Toad]

21. How trans* individuals refer to themselves in the past

is not uniform. Not necessarily even if you only look only at one person.

The person, outside of my family, I'm closest to is my high school sweetheart. She transitioned less than a year ago. Because of the role her gender identity played in our relationship and our lives - even though she did not come out to me until three years ago - we use female pronouns for our relationship of more than 4 decades. That is not true of how she (and people she cares about) refer to her past universally. I also have a friend who is one of the most assertive about inadvertent gender slips - who is still called dad by her daughter. So - for the past, you have to work it out with the individual. If you know the person well enough to know the are a trans* individual, you know them well enough to ask what gender pronouns they prefer you use when referring to their past.

Going forward, yes it is wrong (or at least hurtful) to say "no---he's still a Man, not a Woman."

The phrase used most often these days is "preferred gender pronoun." Whatever pronoun a person asks be used is the one which should be used. Chelsea Manning has requested female pronouns be used - so you should use them.

(It's also gender identity or expression - orientation is more frequently used when referring to sexual partners, not how you view or express yourself.)

Legal status is a different question - mostly you won't interact with people based on their legal status so you don't need to worry about it. On the off chance you do (for example you are working with official records, for example), any trans* individual is aware of the ambiguities and challenges a gender which does not match the legally recognized gender creates. Be respectful, use the preferred gender pronouns in speaking with the individual (regardless of what may need to be put in the records), and be empathetic about the challenges the disconnect between reality and legality creates.

[Lee-Lee]

27. I always try to match pronouns to what the person identifies as

Kind of rough sometimes, I know in the last few days I have edited a bunch is "he" to "she". After so much time using "he" it is a hard habit to break.

Seems like basic courtesy and respect to use whatever they identify with.

[earthside]

38. DU might not be the place to be educated.

The 'gender identity' political faction would have us all accept without question or debate that gender is not physical and is determined by one's mental state.

There is an absoluteness about this that does not brook much dissent or disagreement here on DU.
(Watch and see.)

Furthermore, just read through Wikipedia (as an example) on the topics of transgender and transsexual, and the whole series on transgender topics, and it is clear that there is a whole range of scientific, medical and political opinions.

And, as is often the case when these controversies arise, the DU bubble is different that in the real world where, rightly or wrongly, most folks don't know much about this issue nor do they care.

[cali]

57. because it is definitive. She identifies as female and has asked to be referred to as such.

Why not just do so?

And Wiki is not the place I'd go to for information on this.

[Niceguy1]

323. what about in a medical setting?

In pv1 mannings case her would be male for.proper treatment....

See? It isn't cut and dry... there are some grey areas in all of this.

So in conversarion with the patient the female oronoun would be used, and among medical staff and charting it would be he so that the proper assements are done.

[Ms. Toad]

96. And there was a whole range of scientific, medical, and political opinions

on the inferiority of women and people of color at certain points in our history.

That doesn't make them right. Listen to the trans* individuals here, or in your circle of friends, for accurate information about what it is like to live in their skin and how they want to be treated.

[idwiyo]

193. Would you accept an explanation from World Health Organisation?

Please, read entire article, and specifically parts of the article describing Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome


World Health Organisation
Genomic resource centre
Gender and Genetics

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual.

[justiceischeap]

210. My trans friends would argue your point and they'd be correct

All my trans friends are pre-operative--that doesn't make them any less trans. I haven't had sex with a woman in a while but that doesn't mean I stopped being a lesbian because I haven't had sex and it doesn't make a person any less heterosexual if they don't have sex with someone of the opposite gender.

I know I shouldn't conflate sex, sexuality and gender but I'm hoping to put in terms what someone whom refuses to see what is right in front of them. There is a lot of ignorance from people, especially doctors, the general public and organizations, when it comes to trans identity.

[Myrina]

39. My question: why do we have to use pronouns?

My BFF is 12-years post-trans, and for the longest time I had difficulty talking to other acquiantances about her.
Not at my level, I love everything about her (aside from her ADHD), but in facilitating conversation, it would get difficult with people who "don't get it". So I made myself always just refer to her by name.

People are people. Labelling according to biological parts shouldn't define who we are, what's in our soul should define us.

[gollygee]

41. How does it work?

http://thischarmingcharlie.tumblr.com/image/58248124829

I think the mind rules the body. She says she's a woman. Her mind is a woman's mind, and now that she's told us, we know and can acknowledge it.

[trumad]

116. I agree with that.

[randome]

43. My daughters and I had a previous discussion about this.

Although it is appropriate to refer to someone by the gender pronoun he/she prefers, it isn't always easy to remember. So the effort should be made but a polite 'correction' should be offered if one forgets. Which is understandable if one knows a lot of people.

Umbrage on either side is right out!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[oldhippie]

45. How about "it"?

Wouldn't that be gender neutral? Kind of like we sometimes use "they"?

It is usually used for inanimate objects, but I don't think it necessarily has to be.

Real question, not meant to be snark.

[cali]

47. disgusting and hateful remark.

Chelsea identifies as female and has asked to be referred to as such. It's that simple.

[oldhippie]

62. Do we always have to refer to people as they wish?

If I self identify as a healer and want to be referred to as a doctor, does everyone have to do that? Or a professor if I like to teach? Yes, those terms have some legal definitions, but should we call people what they prefer?

I think the issue may involve self identity vs reality sometimes.

[cali]

68. That's about credentials, not identity. Sorry, you're so unable to discern the difference

do some damned research. this isn't exactly cutting edge anymore.

[Safetykitten]

69. You just jump right in there in the crazy pond, don't you?

[LostOne4Ever]

313. When it comes to an aspect of ourselves...yeah!

Doctor however is a title. Same with teacher.

If I say im an anime fan who are you to say differently? You are not me, you don't know my tastes and you don't know how Chelsa thinks. Only one person does.....Manning herself.

[gollygee]

51. She isn't gender neutral.

[Safetykitten]

53. Stay classy. Don't ever change. I will call you "ClassyHippy" from now on.

[bunnies]

120. Oh, dont be so hard on oldhippie...

it obviously doesnt understand how hurtful its words and ignorance are. Maybe someday it will come to be less cruel and judgmental. Its clearly confused.

[oldhippie]

168. I guess it is indicative of my state of mind .....

... and why I have so much trouble here, that I don't mind being referred to as "it" at all. It just doesn't bother me. oldhippie is a screen name for my on-line persona here on DU. People can call me most anything and it wouldn't mean anything. I am me. It doesn't matter what people call me, or even think of me as an "it."

This must be why I have so much trouble in certain topics on DU. I am not cruel and certainly not judgmental. I don't care. I will try to adapt.

[bunnies]

188. Heres the thing.

I understand that you might not mind being referred to as it. But its silly to think that others share that line of thinking. Its not socially acceptable to refer to people as it. In fact, bigots use the term specifically to dehumanize gay and transgender people.

Can you imagine how difficult it must be to have the body of one gender but the mind of another? You try, all your life, to conform to what society expects from a person born in the body you have. You wear suits, join the military, date women, act "manly"... when all the time you feel as if your pretending to be someone youre not. And when you finally find the courage to say "no. This isnt ME" you have people trying to force you back into the definition you want out of. People focusing on whats between your legs rather than whats in your heart, soul and mind. And all you want is to be accepted for the person you are. Thats all she wants.

I think the least we could do, as caring, accepting, progressive human beings, is give that to her. Dont you?

[maddezmom]

54. Never it, that is dehumanizing

[Safetykitten]

98. But you see, that's where the REAL people work and play...

in the dehumanizing world. That last vestige of humanity of accepting another human? That one? Well, people that can call someone an "it"....it's just icing on their cake.

Most likely, as frustrated humans and non-functioning as they may be in their day job or the human race in general, they can still call another human an "it". It fulfills some deep seated fantasy that they are soooooo much better than other people, and of course, society's "its".

[sufrommich]

61. I just served on this jury.Hopefully it comes back 6-0

to hide.

[oldhippie]

66. Which just goes to prove, ....

..... many people don't want to discuss things, or be educated. They can't abide by a thought outside their box. Kinda like bigotry.

[cali]

70. people are discussing it and trying to explain

and YOU are clearly the one who needs to do research.

[Safetykitten]

75. That discussion includes calling a person an "it"? That crazy pond down there with Classy guy, go...

jump in it.

[oldhippie]

157. Just to follow up .....

I never called her an "it." I asked a question. It seems that in your world there are QUESTIONS THAT MUST NEVER BE ASKED. That just seems strange for a discussion board.

Anyway, I can see that you and I are not going to ever get along, so I will not address you again.

[Vanje]

341. MMMMmmm. I think you got your answer.

[sufrommich]

71. You are suggesting we call a human being an "it".

Someone is being bigoted,but it's not me.

[cali]

73. Ugh. the jury voted 3-3 to leave it.

vile. this should go to the admins.

[sufrommich]

81. Agree,very,very disappointing.

I'd like to see those "leave" voters come here and explain their choice,but I won't hold my breath.

[Ms. Toad]

162. Here are two, from a different jury

on this post:

As long as Bradley Manning has the same male equipment he was born with, no doubt he will be be referred to as "he" by just about everyone, and it doesn't matter if he calls himself Chelsea, Doris, or Sheena: Queen of the Jungle.

If I express my preference to be called "Doctor" or "Excellency" or "Master" is everyone here obligated to do so or be labeled a bigot? get real.

(That one was hidden 4-2)

[Safetykitten]

226. Charming.

[Safetykitten]

82. Not suprising in the least.

[backscatter712]

103. I re-alerted and checked TOS.

Hopefully the pizza will be here shortly.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

160. It's the same sort of shit SouthernYankeeBelle got away with for years...

until admins finally booted her ass.

[oldhippie]

74. How do we rationalize using "they" ....

... for a single individual?

[winter is coming]

86. It's ungrammaticial but doesn't have the depersonalization problems of using "it".

I'll take poor grammar over asshattery any day.

[backscatter712]

97. There are a lot of English majors who are fine with violating this grammar rule.

I'm fine with using "they" as third-person singular, gender non-specific.

[Lex]

184. It's still wrong

even if you are "fine" with it.

[backscatter712]

187. Languages evolve.

The way we speak and write today would seem utterly nuts and wrong to William Shakespeare.

[Lex]

191. That rule hasn't evolved.

But nice try.

[backscatter712]

195. Why not? Language evolves through use.

For example: I think a transgender person should be able to be referred to by the gender pronouns of their choice.

[gollygee]

234. I'd much rather violate a grammar rule

then be as unkind as I'm seeing people here.

[Lex]

87. That's grammatically incorrect

like saying "theirselves." It's incorrect grammar.

Calling a person "it" is just hateful wrong-headed shit.

[LanternWaste]

239. I imagine if the discussion is perceived as sincere, there would be little problems

I imagine if the discussion is perceived as sincere, there would be little problems. However, if members of the discussion are perceived as being insincere and obstinate for its own sake, then yes... the discussion becomes a waste of time and thought...

Not bigotry so much as it may be the simple decision not to present pearls before swine.

[LiberalAndProud]

84. The comments were interesting.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Regretfully, the poster asks a question that tends to dehumanize a certain segment of our population. I believe it was asked in ignorance, not intent for harm. Nevertheless, it is hurtful. I must vote to hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Apologies to anyone offended, but I thought the post was an honest query, no insult intended.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Good Lord,hide.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I understand the concern over this post, but the poster has addressed the fact that this is a real question for him. I believe that DU does have a purpose of education. There is plenty of opportunity for education here by other posters responding as to why this is inappropriate and giving suggestions for a better way of communicating this situation. I, myself, remember when Chaz Bono changed, and I wasn't sure how to phrase things. I was actually educated by other DU members, and I want this person to be given the same opportunity. I simply don't find this poster's intent to be hateful in nature.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I hope this is a joke post. How disgraceful to call anyone "it".
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I sympathize with the alerter, and can't vouch for the intentions of the poster; but I think a lot of people whose lives have not brought them close to these issues before are genuinely confused, and it's only by allowing questions like these that they can be enlightened.

[maddezmom]

92. Well hope they learned something here....however I doubt it.

[NuclearDem]

65. No, and your reasoning about inanimate objects should be enough.

[The Link]

67. I had a post hidden responding to this kind of disgusting shit last night.

[cali]

77. jury voted to leave it. 3-3

[TDale313]

117. If ever there was proof that the jury system was broken...

[Safetykitten]

122. It was never broken. Shit happens.

[backscatter712]

91. Absolutely not. That's dehumanizing and vile. n/t

[oldhippie]

121. OK, I give up .....

It was probably a bad question, even though it was meant for a discussion starter, not for a lot of hate. I was just wondering how strongly labels affect us. It seems many are REALLY sensitive to labels.

I guess I'll just refer to her as PVT Manning until this gets sorted out.

(Unless, of course, she prefers to be addressed a GEN Manning.) (And for the record I had no strong feelings one way or the other as to the morality of what she did.)

[Safetykitten]

131. Ya know...you had me till that last sentence....almost!

[Safetykitten]

141. "it was meant for a discussion starter"...and they have that discussion all over the planet just for

killing people..."its" of course.

Were do you hang out for "discussions"? I thought the 1930's reading room was closed?

[One_Life_To_Give]

128. Ze would be better

Ze is the "new" gender neutral pronoun. It has a negative connotation in our society. For example would you refer to FLOTUS as "it".
e.g. What did you think of it's dress at the State of the Union?

In general it's considered best to ask which pronoun someone prefers. We tend to get really upset and consider it insulting to be referred to by the "wrong" pronoun. So it's the polite thing to do.

[enlightenment]

185. Look, I understand that you

are trying to forward a conversation, but damn, there are limits and you're pushing them. "It" is never an acceptable pronoun to reference a person.

Try reading this - it's a pretty clear guide.
http://www.aux.uwm.edu/lgbt/pages/education-training/gender-pronouns.php

[cyberswede]

199. Jesus Christ - calling a human being "it" ???

Are you fucking kidding me?

[great white snark]

290. Are you freaking serious?

[Gravitycollapse]

315. "They" is becoming a popular pronoun for gender queer individuals.

"It" is not so popular probably because of the implications behind the word.

[clarice]

60. A rose, is a rose, is a rose nt

[cali]

89. how ironic that you're quoting Stein.

[Bluenorthwest]

142. But they are not really managing to quote Stein, she used no commas

"Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose." Gertrude used variations of the line as well. But that is the primary version. 'A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose' also would pass as a quote. The commas are the main issue....

[clarice]

146. I stand corrected. nt

[clarice]

148. Glad you caught that. 10 bonus points. nt

[oldhippie]

85. A very successful thread, trumad .....

Pot stirring at it's best.

[trumad]

124. What the fuck?

I mean really---what the fuck?

I posted in another thread a comment that Bradley was a he, and the reply was---no he is a she.

So--- guess what I did.... I asked a community that I've been associated with for about 12 years for advice.

Looking up thread--- it's looks like you're the one that's getting slapped around for your Douchey comment.

Go check yourself.

[Safetykitten]

133. I will raise that what the fuck with a what fuckery is this?

[oldhippie]

140. You're right, and I am sorry ....

When I first saw your post I knew it was going to ignite a strong discussion, and I thought you did it for that purpose. I thought you knew that even asking that question was going to bring out some strong feelings. But I agree with you, it was a perfectly legitimate question and I guess the DU consensus is pretty clear.

My "it" post was in poor taste and I apologize for it. I deservedly got slapped around. I guess I am not as label sensitive as most. I am definitely not much of a "feelings" person as most here. I will try to adapt. And I still have a problem trying to resolve self-identity vs physical reality in both legal and ethical contexts. So, I guess I'll go with the consensus here and refer to PVT Manning as "her."

Still, a pretty interesting thread. I learned a lot.

[trumad]

165. NP

Peace

[coffeenap]

93. GLAAD has a great resource that answers many questions about transgender people:

This one is a list of terms and explanations. There is a link in the document to even more information describing some important basics about transgender people. I hope you find it helpful. (I work and volunteer with transgender teens and have learned so much from them and from resources like this one--in fact, I am still learning every day.)

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

[stevenleser]

100. Wow, this is beyond words. SMH

I have a real problem with what Manning did, but this is just awful.

I'm very sad today at the transphobia here.

[trumad]

126. Because of what I wrote?

Seriously?

[stevenleser]

166. I guess I have trouble believing that people on this site don't know better.

[trumad]

178. You have trouble believing that education on such a matter is necessary?

Don't you think people reading this thread might go---hey--- good points...I understand now?

[Inkfreak]

322. I did. I had some questions answered by reading this very thread.

Im not afraid to admit it.

[Emit]

220. I'm having problems particularly with this part of what you wrote...

"...So set me straight on the Bradley Manning is a she thing... "

Was it really necessary for you to refer to her as a "she thing?"

For as long as you've been here on DU, and if what you say in your OP is true, I'd think that you might at least know by now how degrading and insensitive that part of your OP is.

[mockmonkey]

237. At first that is how I read it

then I read it again and decided that is not what he meant.

[trumad]

250. Really?

I'll have you proof read my ops in the future.

[Emit]

284. Trumad, I see now that I misread your post.

I sincerely thought you were referring to Manning as a she-thing. I apologize.

[trumad]

287. no problem

[noamnety]

256. I think you misinterpreted that.

I'm guessing it wasn't: So set me straight on the Bradley Manning is a "she thing".

I believe the question was: So set me straight on the Bradley Manning is a "she" issue.

I've never heard anyone refer to anyone as a she-thing, whereas "thing" used in place of "issue" is really common usage.

[Emit]

285. Yes, thank you, I see that now. n/t

[Revanchist]

277. I almost commented on that myself

Until I reread it a few times. Trumad isn't calling her a she-thing, he's asking for clarification on the "thing" or topic about calling Chelsea (or Bradley as he refers to her in his post) by the female pronoun instead of the male pronoun. I don't believe Trumad was meaning any disrespect, he just worded the sentence in a way that it could be misinterpreted.

[Emit]

286. Yes, I understand now. Tx. n/t

[DonCoquixote]

102. The process of a sex change

begins long before any pills are taken, and any surgery done. If you are worried that because Chelsea looks like a man, that she will not be discriminated against, there are many Military women that can tell you that, if anything, the abuse will ratchet up, and that does not count any prison time.

[leftstreet]

109. There's probably no 'educating' you

If you thought 'retard' or 'bitch' were just 'rather politically incorrect' terms



I'm guessing there are a few other terms you're all pouty you can't say here

[trumad]

129. Try reading that again---

12 years ago I was just a big galoot from Miami--- not that politically aware and not that politically correct.

Guess what---I've changed big time with the help of my friends at DU.

Oh but thanks for your opinion.

[trumad]

172. So---let me get this straight

You're perfect right?

You were perfect from the day you were born. Never had to change because you were perfect from the day you were born.

You do realize that you are the only one in this thread that is giving me shit for my OP?---the only one.

Now why is that? Maybe you are the only perfect DUer on this forum---and others are unable to match your perfectness.

So---ask yourself--- out of all these wonderful replies to my OP--- why are you the only one ---the only one--- who acts this way...

Oh that's right---you're perfect.

[leftstreet]

183. Your OP is fail

You want DUers to believe that TWELVE YEARS AGO you used pejorative terms and TWELVE YEARS LATER you still need 'education' about not doing it. In TWELVE YEARS it never occurred to you the only motivation you need is a desire not to hurt feelings

[trumad]

198. In about 2 hours the OP has 200 replies

Your definition of failure is pretty funny.

Dude--- seriously---what the fuck is your problem and why are you the only one shitting in this thread?

[leftstreet]

201. I used to say Attention Whore, but I don't now

It's offensive to sex workers

[trumad]

206. I use to say Douchebag---and I still do.

[leftstreet]

211. 'used' to say

not 'use'

Just trying to educate you, as you requested

[trumad]

215. wow...is that all you got?

You're done.

[penultimate]

260. I'm sooo confused by the hostility some people have....

[trumad]

266. forum behavior

I see it everyday in the he comment section of my local paper. Its weird behavior... sort of anti social.

[winter is coming]

130. False. Until she has surgery, she is still *physically* male.

I can see no reason to disrespect her wishes now, regardless of her outward appearance.

[cali]

139. yes, disrespect. She identifies as female. she wants her body to reflect her identity.

she doesn't "know she's male". Quite the opposite.

[winter is coming]

144. Manning's gender identity is female, her body is male.

She's asked to be referred to as a female named Chelsea. Continually referring to Manning as "male" and "he" is disrespectful.

[winter is coming]

154. Referring to Chelsea as "him" isn't respectful.

As someone else pointed out upthread, gender is in the brain, not the crotch.

[joeglow3]

298. Based on what

The scientist is me always felt it followed the x and Y chromosomes.

[winter is coming]

299. If it followed the X and Y chromosomes, we wouldn't have gender dysphoria.

There's sex, gender, and sexuality. Most of the time, XY maps to sex male, gender male, heterosexual. "Most" isn't "always". The attitude that sex A always maps to gender A is what makes life so difficult for people who aren't like that.

[LostOne4Ever]

314. The Scientist in you?

Most biologist will tell you that sex is not something that is well defined and can easily be confused!!!

Sex, like all traits, biologically breaks down into two components. Genotype and phenotype. Genotype refers to their exact genetic make up. When it comes to humans the difference between males and females comes down to the x and y chromosome generally and certain genes (sry gene especially) in particular.

The Genotype of a Human males usually have 1 x and 1 y chromosome, and a female has 2 x chromosomes (one of which deactivates). Phenotype refers to how these traits are physically expressed. Males it is usually expressed by a scrotum with testes, and a penis. Female phenotype is expressed by a vulva, wider hips, and development of the mammary glands starting in puberty.

However there are a variety of ways in which the phenotype and genotype will not agree and results in a variety of conditions including ambiguous genitalia and inter-sex individuals.

As they said in Jurassic Park, we are all inherently female during the early stages of development. Males will develop masculine traits only if exposed to the right hormones at the right time. If a genetic abnormality occurs in the androgen receptor gene on the Y chromosome it results in a condition called androgen insensitivity. This means the fetus will have reduced, if any reaction to male hormones and thus they wont be as masculine.

In the case where the androgen receptors are completely knock offline it results in the condition called Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. This results in the fetus developing entirely as a female except they lack have undeveloped testes instead of ovaries (and may or may not lack a uterus). Other than that, they are a female in every way. In genitalia, in 2ndary sex characteristics, and even in their brains.

In a related condition (Swyer syndrome) an XY female could have a faulty sry gene and also develop as a female.

Similarly, through a process called crossing over the sry gene could pass from a Y chromosome to an X chromosome and you end up with XX males (De La Chapelle syndrome).

Then there are a plethora of conditions where a person has more or less than 2 sex chromosomes like Klinefelter syndrome (XXY). All of which makes determining if a person's sex is male or female.

Then there are a variety of errors that can go on during the hormone communication between the fetus and the mother that could have an effect on how the fetus develops. If you have a fetus with a genetic predisposition to be reliant or overly sensitive to hormones or if they are supplied with too much or too little hormone you could end up with cases of ambiguous genitalia or have other features masculine or feminized that shouldn't be.

In fact, this is believed to be the cause of both homosexuality and gender identity disorder.

Further, (in addition to sex not being a well defined term) it has been accepted in both psychology and biology for a long time that gender and sex are not the same thing.

If ANYTHING the scientist in you should know better than anyone the bottom line:

Chelsa has a female brain and thinks like a female and we should respect this and respond to her accordingly.

[NuclearDem]

218. Yes, it does.

Gender is determined by the brain, not by what parts someone has.

Unless you're a mind reader and can confirm she's lying, you need to refer to her as Chelsea.

[stevenleser]

269. What is the purpose of this post? To prove how bigoted you are against transgender people? nt

[noamnety]

276. It's bigoted because

you are refusing to acknowledge her gender. Expanding that out, you are demonstrating bigotry toward all transgender people.

You can tell us that you self-identify as a nonbigot - but ... well, you see where I'm going here, right?

[itsrobert]

278. Exactly

I can self identify as a non-bigot, but that doesn't mean I am not.

[noamnety]

291. In this case, you are openly presenting yourself as a bigot

so I'm gonna equate that to wanting to be known as one.

Seriously, though - there's a huge problem on many levels with your attitude. One is deciding that only rich people get to be acknowledged by their proper gender, because they can afford to have surgery. Poor people without access to surgery don't get to be acknowledged as their proper gender. Surely you can see why that would be a disturbing class issue, in addition to everything else, right?

I really don't understand the insistence on surgery as the ultimate defining gender characteristic. Do you really believe that women who have mastectomies are less female? Do you think soldiers who are, for example, caught up in IED explosions and have penis amputations as a result of their injuries are now women? That doesn't make any sense to me. It's the sort of thing that would rightfully get a reporter or corworker immediately fired, if they started referring to - let's say john bobbitt, as "she" in news stories or employment documents.

If I were, lord help me, kidnapped, and had some sicko do genital mutilation on me to make me look like the opposite gender physically, would you insist on then calling me by the opposite gender? Can you see why that would be beyond offensive to me?

[backscatter712]

145. Your bigotry is noted.

[itsrobert]

152. Jesus is dead

and no longer exist. I can accept he was a man that walked the Earth about 2000 years ago. But Jesus cannot hate me, because he no longer exist.

[HardTimes99]

190. Great graphic, although I fear it has gone right over itsrobert's head. - nt

[Ms. Toad]

151. Please link to a request for surgery.

I have seen nothing to indicate Chelsea is seeking surgery. Transitioning often has nothing at all to do with surgery, it has to do with identity (who you are) and expression (how you present yourself). Many trans* individuals have no - or minimal - surgery.

And, FWIW, one of my dearest friends still has all of her original (male) plumbing and is both living as a woman - and is legally recognized as a woman.

[gollygee]

163. Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?

Our minds, our hearts, our souls, or whatever you want to call it, determine who we are. Not body parts.

[Vanje]

342. Its sunday afternoon

I am surprised itsrobert still has an active account here.
She really needs a pizza.
( I use that particular pronoun because I don't see your dick).

[idwiyo]

227. This post will always represent a fine example of transphobic bigotry. Nothing will change that.

[stevenleser]

263. I have alerted. nt

[idwiyo]

297. I gave up on alerting. I just don't see the point anymore. Please, post the decision here

if it's OK with you. Or PM it to me please.

I know we don't see eye to eye on some issues but on this one we are on the same side.

[NM_Birder]

125. I'm not human, i want to known as GOD now.

[cali]

135. the ignorance in your post is par for the course in this thread

for fuck's sake, do some research.

[NM_Birder]

279. psssst...it was a joke, I actually like being human.

[JBoy]

138. God, you're an ass.

[bunnies]

169. Well done, JBoy.

Well done.

[NM_Birder]

280. now THAT was funny ! I knew SOMEBODY would get it.

[sufrommich]

153. This is the same nasty false equivalence that right wingers

use to equate marriage equality with humans marrying animals. It's just ignorant nonsense.

[NM_Birder]

283. yikes ! I made a bad joke, and you segway into marriage with animals ?

[Zorra]

177. You may have a big problem with that until you can express a coherent thought. nt

[NM_Birder]

281. uh...you mean I can't really be a GOD ?...bummer my bad typing skills quash another dream.

[NuclearDem]

216. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wait, that's not funny.

[NM_Birder]

282. meh, you're right maybe not funny, but good for a chuckle.

[Vanje]

343. No.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. I have been a patient advocate to a transgender

Gent, who has not gone through the corrective surgery...it's the cost stupid.

So the first thing to realize is that her brain is telling her he is a she. Because of this, the medical system, not just an American hing, does not want to treat them equally. And it extends to all areas of life.

It might be difficult to make the adjustment, but as far as the person is concerned they are women, so treat them as such.

I also treated trans men, who were the most feminine people you'd ever meet. My partner was shocked, since he was not willing to go that far. I treated them as women, but of course for official run reports I needed their legal names. No issue getting them. They were very grateful somebody actually got it.

What I had an issue with was the General Hospital treating them. It was at the height of the aids epidemic. So we had a good...fruitful discussion with the medical director on basic human rights, and in this case the Mexican Constitution which has medical access as a basic right.

Why did we transport them to begin with? They were beaten and they needed sutures because they were men in heels and skirts. I wish I was making that up. Even the cop taking a report had problems with the whole idea.

[idwiyo]

167. Please, have a look at the article below, it will explain a lot to you.

Specifically why 'anatomically male/female' is nonsense concept.

Also, read carefully parts of the article describing Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome


World Health Organisation
Genomic resource centre
Gender and Genetics

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual.

[Zorra]

170. Here are a few sources for you, so you can compare information in order for you to

better understand the phenomenon.

There's a lot of bullshit floating around about transsexuals, and being transgender. If you are serious about getting a relatively accurate understanding of this phenomenon, I suggest that you educate yourself by studying as many credible sources on the subject as possible, otherwise, you may very well end up believing total bullshit.

(First link below is pdf)
http://www.cpath.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/COHEN-KETTENIS.DSM_.pdf

http://www.tsfaq.info/

http://www.transsexual.org/

http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

Here are some thoughts:

We do not know what causes autism. Yet the phenomenon clearly exists. Autism is diagnosed by symptoms common to the phenomenon.

We do not know what causes transsexualism. Yet the phenomenon clearly exists. Transsexualism is diagnosed by specific symptoms that are common to the phemomenon.

I'm not saying that transsexualism is some type of pathology, or mental illness. I believe it is a natural condition, just like being gay, or cis hetero.

What I am saying is that the phenomenon exists, and although it is relatively uncommon, it is nevertheless a condition that manifests in millions of people on the planet, and appears to have manifested in populations throughout human history.

The phenomenon of intersex humans also exists. Some human have aneuploidies of sex chromosomes, such as XYY. Some human beings have both male and female variations in sex characteristics including gonads, and/or genitals. Some have all of the above.

Consider the possible that transsexualism is caused by some physical anomaly, possibly in the brain, caused by an uncommon anabolic event when a transsexual is in the womb.

Whatever, it is what it is, and I am quite happy to accept and allow cis/hetero sisters and brothers the space and understanding to be who they are. I just really wish that more of them would do the same for me and my LGBTI family.

Well done, trumad, thank you.

[Orsino]

182. You've discovered that people who ask the question are automatically attacked.

Gender is at the core of our beings, and calling it into question is not easily tolerated.

Of course, anything other than instant, unquestioning compliance with an announcement of the terms of a transition is met by aggressive vitriol as well.

It's polite to call someone what he or she wants to be called, and so we should behave. However, to declare that there can be no third-person discussion except on predefined tems is ludicrous. I won't accept without question either the dude bro ridicule of a person in transition OR a press release from a political prisoner who may be mentally ill.

Manning's identity doesn't depend on me, on the haters, or on the white knights. Time may tell, but reaching conclusions now, from outside Leavenworth, is premature. We can call her Chelsea because she asked us to do so...and what she says next week or next year can take care of itself.

[idwiyo]

196. I am not going to attack you. If you are interested to know more, please have a look at the article

from World Health Organisation sited in post #167

[Orsino]

203. That answers the OP's question, but not mine.

The question of Manning's gender itself isn't addressed there, of course.

And until Manning is allowed reassignment therapy, assuming it's still desired when it becomes pissible, we can't settle it here.

[idwiyo]

209. It explains a genetic component, the very base of identity. it also explains why secondary sexual

characteristics have nothing to do with what one really is. That's why 'anatomically male/female' is nonsense concept.

Gender reassignment therapy will correct secondary characteristics, nothing else. It will make Chelsea look like a culturally accepted stereotype of what female should look like, but it will not make 'more' female than she already is. She is a female, with or without the therapy.

That's why Chelsea's gender was already determined when she stated that she is a woman and asked everyone to address her as a female.

Don't take it wrong, it is extremely important that Chelsea has access to all the medical procedures she needs, both hormonal and surgery. It's a basic right and a very important step for lots of transgender women.

[Orsino]

214. Sorry, but I don't believe it on your say-so.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you are hardly qualified to testify. The cited article tells us nothing about how genuine Manning's desire to transition was, nor how far along she is, nor when she become a woman, nor whether she will recant ten years or two weeks from now.

That's up to Manning.

[idwiyo]

217. I am not 'testifying' for anyone. I provided a basic scientific explanation from a respected

organisation about genetics in regards to sex and gender.

Your post tells me that unfortunately you did not understand at all that this is not something one 'decided' to do. That article clearly explains that one is born that way, literaly born into wrong body.

Not to be rude, but do you question a gay man or lesbian woman if they might 'change' their mind several years down the road? Did you ever ask 'when' a straight person 'decided' they are straight?

[Orsino]

219. I don't know when Manning's journey began, and neither do you.

She may have been a she in the womb. However attractive and well-supported the theory, how much of it applies to Chelsea isn't certain.

[idwiyo]

225. When did yours start?

[Orsino]

228. I don't know.

What does theory dictate?

[idwiyo]

235. According to your previous posts there must be a moment in your life when you 'knew' what your

gender and sexual orientation are, or at the very least when you decided to start your journey.

[Orsino]

236. Reread #217 n/t

[idwiyo]

242. I don't need to re-read my own post. Is it safe to assume you actually understand how rude

(at the very least) it is to imply that transgender persons don't know what they are and 'might change their minds in 10 years time' or any such nonsense?

[Orsino]

335. It's not rude to speculate about the come and go of human sexuality and gender.

Especially in the third person, and when the person in question is a prisoner with limited ability to communicate with the world, and when the person has been apparently been tortured.

I wouldn't hold anyone to statements made under those conditions, and am perfectly willing to listen as Manning evolves. Presumably, you would also listen if one day Chelsea announced she was again Bradley. In replying to #217, I also acknowledged that Manning might have been female in the womb, the explanation that seems to be most pleasing to you.

But I'm not going to insist that a few recent press releases must contain the entire truth about a person to whom we seem to owe a great debt.

[idwiyo]

338. Chelsea Manning asked everyone to address her as female. THAT is all that matters.

To second guess her decision is at the very least rude. It is simply not mine, or yours, or anyone else business. To keep insisting you have a right to question is bigotry, pure and simple.

[Orsino]

346. Clearly, that is all that matters to some people.

However, she's already captive to at least one political ideology.

I'd hope that her conviction and imprisonment as a whistleblower are also important, as is her need for treatment--including treatment for a certain possible propensity for violence.

[Hosnon]

192. Gender is not only biological. You refer to someone by the gender they identify with.

Manning should be referred to as a "she" from now on. Not doing so as offensive as refusing to acknowledge a gay man's boyfriend as such because homosexuality is unnatural (or something).

[NuclearDem]

230. Actually, I'd argue that gender isn't biological at all.

It's simply society's view of how people with certain sex organs are supposed to behave. Sex is the physical part, gender is all mental.

[Humanist_Activist]

326. I think people are confusing mental with the brain...

generally we think of mental states as non-physical when this is far from the case, and generally, in transgender individuals, there is a physical difference in the brain that more closely matches the gender they identify with, rather than the gender their body happens to be.

[KamaAina]

202. You don't call Bradley Manning a she.

You call Chelsea Manning a she. She stated quite clearly that she wished to be known as Chelsea, and to be referred to as "she", "her", etc. As far as the name goes, how is that any different than, say, Sean Combs wishing to be known as "Puffy", or "Puff Daddy", or "P. Diddy"?

Out here in the trans-friendly Bay Area, introductions at meetings often include a statement of one's preferred pronouns.

I know it can be confusing. A good friend of mine is transitioning in the other direction, F2M. Luckily for him, his first name works with only a spelling change. But he has not yet updated his Facebook profile, so it still says "she" and so on.

[Orsino]

207. Yes, it's confusing and even scary.

I won't hate on anyone showing any willingness eventually to accept Manning as a woman. Bradley seems to have had years to mull the transition, but waited to make an announcement while not (as far as we know) berating anybody calling him a man.

Politeness would demand calling her she as soon as we ask--in person. But let's allow more than a few hours for the entire Internet to get on board. Most of us will never meet her.

[Newest Reality]

208. We all start out as

females in the womb and then hormones cause a differentiation of the sexes. There are correlations between male and female genitalia, and of course, men have those obvious, yet non-functional nipples, as well.

Culture then imposes its own definitions on various sexual orientations and behaviors which vary over time and from culture to culture. Taboos and norms are functional, not necessarily implicit, though hormones also influence behavior.

If someone identifies one way or another concerning their gender and non-harmful sexual behaviors then what degree of maturity and wisdom does it take to see that from a larger perspective without assuming or implying immorality or abnormality? Does being "normal" and "moral" require a bias and judgmental prejudice in order to define itself?

So, if someone feels like the opposite sex, engages in hormone therapy, (which also influences how they feel and look) and walks, talks, acts and dresses like the other gender, (and perhaps, but not necessarily, has surgery for genital reassignment) what would they then be to you and what is your place in deciding that if you are comfortable with your own sexuality and current gender?

We have a legacy we carry with us and it is like a veil concerning our drives and genders. In actuality, there is no normal and morality is a two-edged sword of its own.

[Tien1985]

301. Just a

Nitpick. We don't all start as "female" in the womb, although it is sometimes described that way to laymen.

Everyone starts out undifferentiated in the womb. If a Y is present, after several weeks testicles and penis will begin to develop (usually, but not always). If a Y is not present, after several weeks ovaries and a clitoris/vagina will begin to develop (usually). There are a signicant number of people who are born indeterminate, so the process of making female reproductive organs is not as automatic as it is sometimes described.

I only bring it up because that's what we are discussing right now and it's important to make the distinction that female is not the "default" gender, and that a vagina isn't the lack of a penis.

[markiv]

213. It will likely be determined by the military courts

If a person lives in any city or town in the US, it is determined by what the person calls themself

But taking up residence at the United States Disciplinary Barracks, at Fort Leavenworth Kansas (whether deserved or not), does involve some complications in the choices one makes for themselves

This does not automatically mean that the right to choose is lost, it means that it will likely have to go through the court

[eilen]

221. Educate yourself.

I'm not your sensitivity trainer.
Anyway, do you know Chelsea Manning? Are you a member of the Press? Then I expect you won't be addressing her.

[lastlib]

222. Calling me Angelina Jolie doesn't make me a woman (I'm a male....)

I think the determining factor in this is something called "chromosomes"--males have an X and a Y, females have the X. There is nothing sexist or homophobic or anything else negative about this; it's simply the biological fact of the matter. If Manning wants to be called "Chelsea" or whatever, that's fine, but it doesn't make him female. If he wants to ACT like a female, that's fine, but it doesn't make him female.

[NuclearDem]

229. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex is the product of biological development, the XX or XY chromosomes.

Gender is the social construct that defines roles based on masculinity or feminity. That is entirely based on rearing and societal pressure.

It can be a confusing concept, but those are pretty big differences. Someone can have female sex organs and be of the male gender, and vice versa. Sex reassignment is just the physical process to make one's outward appearance reflect their identified gender.

[Safetykitten]

233. Angelina, this is Brad...are you not telling me something?

[cali]

243. what is it with this willful ignorance

wrong on all counts. gender identification is not about biology.

And there's plenty bigoted about hour post.

It's not about "acting" female- whatever that is. it's about feeling female. this isn't rocket science.

[nomorenomore08]

331. Not knowing is one thing. Or hell, even not *wanting* to know.

But the way people have been parading around their lack of knowledge and insight on the subject is really kind of head-scratching.

[idwiyo]

253. Have a look at the article below please. I am interested in your opinion.

Please, read carefully parts of the article describing Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome


World Health Organisation
Genomic resource centre
Gender and Genetics

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual.

[LostOne4Ever]

316. Explain to me

What you mean by biological fact of the matter that males have an XY and females have (2) X. Are you talking about Genotype? Or phenotype? Or both? Because there are people with male genotypes and female phenotypes and vice versa.

There are conditions like Swyer's syndrome and CAIS that result in XY females.

There are also conditions like De La Chapelle syndrome that you end up with XX males.

So, biologically, which is female and which is male? Is the woman with CIAS really a man biologically? Or a woman? She does have a vagina.

Or maybe sex is not as well defined as we like to imagine.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

224. we are the gender we say we are. we may have a sex that doesn't match our gender

but our gender identification is ours to make

if she says she, who are you to deny her that right?

[RedCappedBandit]

246. Some of the responses to this thread... SMH...

It's fine to ask questions.


But this thread has gone way beyond that.

[trumad]

249. don't a few bad comments ruin the discussion.

[NuclearDem]

254. Gender is mental, and gender is not the same as sex.

In fact, that's the point of transgender (specifically transsexualism) in the first place.

She may be pre-operative, but that doesn't make her less of a woman.

[noamnety]

270. Advice for not sounding like a bigot:

GLAAD has a good resource here: http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

You can scroll down to the section called "NAMES, PRONOUN USAGE & DESCRIPTIONS."

Some excerpts:

"Always use a transgender person's chosen name. Often transgender people cannot afford a legal name change or are not yet old enough to change their name legally. They should be afforded the same respect for their chosen name as anyone else who lives by a name other than their birth name (e.g., celebrities)." - so in this case, Chelsea Manning is the proper form of address.

"Whenever possible, ask transgender people which pronoun they would like you to use. A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or had some form of surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender." - so in this case, the proper pronoun is "she."

Although you personally seem to have made up your own rules for qualifications (must be able to afford and have access to surgery), be aware that your personally made up set of rules does not match society's standards for acceptability.

[BlueStreak]

252. The person who downloaded the data and gave it to Wiki is a MAN named Bradley Manning

I don't give a shit what he/she wants to do sexually the rest of his/her life, as long as I don't have to pay for it as a taxpayer. If he wants to become Chelsea, fine with me.

But Chelsea Manning is 100% irrelevant to me. I don't care about that.

What I do care about is the security state and the service that Bradley Manning did for the country in that regard. And because it was the gentleman named Bradley Manning who did that, that is who I will refer to.

In the unlikely instance that I have some reason to discuss his/her future life after the gender change, I would most certainly refer to that person as Chelsea Manning if that is her preference.

This is no different from referring to the young boxer named Cassius Clay. That was his name. And if referring to his later professional boxing career, of course we call him Muhammad Ali. But if you want to talk about the fight with Sonny Liston in 1964, it is no more correct to call him Ali than to call him Peter Pan. That boxer was Cassius Clay.

Get it? Please turn off the offense factory. We aren't gender phobic just because we use choose to use the language correctly.

[idwiyo]

300. Chelsea was formerly known a Bradley Manning. Chelsea is still a pfc Manning. She specifically

requested to be addressed as Chelsea Manning. A polite non-bigoted thing to do is to follow her wishes.

She doesn't have to have a gender reassignment surgery or even hormone therapy UNLESS she wishes to do so. How she wants to look is her business.
She identifies as a female, that's all a polite person needs to know. As another female I don't care what girly bits she has or doesn't have, she is as much a female as I am.

You assume that Chelsea identified as male previously, though judging by the evidence presented in court she identified as a female even than.

[BlueStreak]

303. If I ever meet this person, I will address her with any name he/she prefers

But if I am talking about the case where BRADLEY Manning downloaded massive numbers of documents, I will refer to this factually -- which includes using the correct name f the person who did that -- and that name was Bradley.

It is not intolerant. It is not impolite. It is simply using the language correctly.

What is impolite is people swarming over this site insisting that we torture the language to make some LGBT point about a subject that has nothing to do with LGBT issues. Bradley Manning's act is about the security state. His decision to change genders just isn't relevant to anything here, IMHO. If that is what he/she wants and he/she can pay for it, I don't have an opinion. I wish Chelsea well with that. I don't care what she does. I don't have any reason to discuss that.

[TBF]

255. Trumad, you are someone I love to read in the sports forum -

but it really is not anyone's job to "educate you". Please do some reading on this. Look up transgender on wiki for starters and go from there.

When someone calls herself Chelsea and says she prefers to be female who are you to disagree? She'll get all of the paperwork done and any physical alterations she chooses to make - it is up to us to just be accepting as we are of any other human. The most important thing is that we know where her heart and moral compass lie. As far as I'm concerned she is an amazing person and I am sick that she got that rotten sentence.

[trumad]

271. maybe I used that term loosely. .."educate"

I value the opinion of DUers over the opinion of wiki any day. Hence my question.

[TBF]

293. Well I hope some of the answers have helped -

although I still see a lot of nastiness in many of these threads.

Chelsea identifies as female and that is all we really need to know. Let's continue to support her.

[Matariki]

257. Thank you for asking this question

I wonder the same things AND I've been active in a robust sex-positive, pan-sexual community, have been in long term same sex relationships, and understand that gender isn't quite as binary as once believed.

If someone says they're female and then enters a 'female only' space, particularly where there's nudity - and that person has male genitalia are the women there supposed to just deny what's in front of them? Who is disrespecting who? I've seen this very issue tear a very progressive pagan community apart from both sides of the issue.

I think the question is about self identification, and in what instances does society owe respect to that self identification. Always? Are there other instances where it's not acceptable?

[msanthrope]

261. Trumad...as I visit prisioners, I am sometimes confronted with this issue.

If I ask to see "Jane Doe" prisoner # 1234567, I will get nowhere. So I have to use "John Doe" # 1234567.

But when meeting with Jane, I use the name and gender-specific pronoun that is in accordance with her wishes and her dignity.

So I think it's perfectly fine to note that "Bradley Manning was charged with 22 counts," since we can't go back and correct every DU post and news story, but remember that it is Chelsea Manning going forward, in accordance with her wishes.

Alternatively, "Pvt. Manning" still holds true.

[Matariki]

272. Great answer Msanthrope

"But when meeting with Jane, I use the name and gender-specific pronoun that is in accordance with her wishes and her dignity."

[msanthrope]

274. Thank you. I am no fan of Manning, but basic respect for her dignity indicates that we

can and should use the language she wishes us to. She has a very difficult road ahead.

[Union Scribe]

294. Your post restores my hope

in DU's capacity for disagreement without nastiness.

[TBF]

295. Great post. nt

[Lex]

292. How simple-minded. nt

[TBF]

296. Excuse me?

I can name a lot of reasons this country is in trouble - the main one being economic inequality. But I fail to see how someone's gender is even part of the discussion.

[nomorenomore08]

320. I keep thinking of that Twain quote, about being better to appear a fool, than to open one's mouth

and remove all doubt. People are just aggressively parading their ignorance at this point.

[dipsydoodle]

302. Might've helped if he'd not used a play on words

and changed his name completely.

Chelsea Manning / Chelsea Morning.

[valerief]

305. I can't wait for the day when he and she aren't used as pronouns but pe is used instead.

(Pe being short for Person.) Of course, only corporations have the right to be called persons in today's world, so our world is still confined to using she and he and sometimes s/he in our communications. Also, the subjugation of women won't allow genderless pronouns for humans (known as human resources in Personspeak).

Here's how I see it:
He or she -- use pe
Him or her -- use per

[steve2470]

308. admirable of you to ask for education, Trumad

DU is a difficult place to be *sometimes* when you're not aware of the facts on topics. I'm learning new things as well.

[LostOne4Ever]

318. Hiya maybe this graphic can help

[marions ghost]

336. very good chart

[marions ghost]

337. If the individual makes crystal clear in public that "he" wishes to be a "she"

--what justification is there for NOT honoring those expressed wishes?

Manning has clearly shown his intent to cross over to the other gender. Why is it so hard to just forget he was male and go with she is now female? This is only confusing when the individual is not clear about it, or perhaps wishes not to express gender.

In this case, Chelsea owns it. Gender is not simply physical, not at all.