Manning’s Biggest Revelation of All

[kpete]

Manning’s Biggest Revelation of All

..............................

Indeed, it could be argued that the biggest journalistic stories of the past half-decade can be attributed to the courage that Pfc. Manning showed by providing these documents to WikiLeaks back in 2010. But, in a sense, none of these are the biggest revelations that Pfc. Manning brought to light.

Sadly, the biggest story is the lengths that the U.S. government will go to in its attempts to silence and punish whistleblowers, and the shameful silence of the American public at large when these abuses are carried out in plain sight.

Manning, the whistleblower who brought to light countless stories of malfeasance and corruption, was tortured and denied any semblance of a fair trial. President Obama ensured that the military court-martial would be little more than a kangaroo-court show trial when he declared Manning’s guilt in his infamous statement, “He broke the law.”

This was all a striking blow to those of us clinging to some sense of “hope and change,” that phony campaign slogan from 2008.



MORE:
http://my.firedoglake.com/natparry/2013/08/23/mannings-biggest-revelation-of-all/

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Aw, Jeez, KPete--

K&R

[cantbeserious]

2. Hope And Change - Does Anyone Still Believe That Nonsense

eom

[snooper2]

3. Oh, I thought somebody over at the fire actually read something

out of the documents and found a bombshell...


LOL, stupid me

[kpete]

4. Not important enough, move on then snooper2

Manning, the whistleblower who brought to light countless stories of malfeasance and corruption, was tortured and denied any semblance of a fair trial. President Obama ensured that the military court-martial would be little more than a kangaroo-court show trial when he declared Manning’s guilt in his infamous statement, “He broke the law.”

[snooper2]

6. Nah, OP really needed my comment in the mix

Why didn't his lawyer bring up the fact that he was tortured at trial? Are they preparing a case against the government?

[kpete]

10. maybe because:

[NoMoreWarNow]

17. ding ding ding!

winner!

[Cleita]

33. Catch Amy Goodman's interview with Manning's lawyer on Weds.

I'm sure there is a video or transcript on the Democracy Now! website. He calls kangaroo court on the whole proceeding without actually saying kangaroo court.

[emsimon33]

73. I hope that they are

Our ignorance and complacency as a nation will bite us in the butt sooner than later. Manning is a hero and our government is the criminal.

[snooper2]

74. It'll be okay in the morning

you'll wake up and there will be something new to be outraged about

[reusrename]

80. Yep, we'll be outraged allright, but you'll do well under the new regime.

Right up your alley.

[NM_Birder]

7. Manning stole classified materials and distributed them

to an unknown foreign source. "He broke the law" hits that nail right on the head.
In 35 years, he will still be a thief, a traitor, a felon and a piece of trash, like with all trash.........good riddance.

Whistleblowing does NOT include sending classified materials to Wikileaks, now both you and Manning know that.

[kpete]

11. so what you are saying, is we would be BETTER OFF --- NOT KNOWING THESE THINGS?:

Below is a list of 10 revelations disclosed by Manning’s leaked documents that offer insight into the breadth and scope of what he revealed, help explain his motivation for leaking, and provide context for the ongoing trial. The list, in no particular order, is far from comprehensive but encompasses some of the most significant information brought to light by the leaked documents.

During the Iraq War, U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape, and murder by Iraqi police and soldiers, according to thousands of field reports.
There were 109,032 “violent deaths” recorded in Iraq between 2004 and 2009, including 66,081 civilians. Leaked records from the Afghan War separately revealed coalition troops’ alleged role in killing at least 195 civilians in unreported incidents, one reportedly involving U.S. service members machine-gunning a bus, wounding or killing 15 passengers.
The U.S. Embassy in Paris advised Washington to start a military-style trade war against any European Union country that opposed genetically modified crops, with U.S. diplomats effectively working directly for GM companies such as Monsanto.
British and American officials colluded in a plan to mislead the British Parliament over a proposed ban on cluster bombs.
In Baghdad in 2007, a U.S. Army helicopter gunned down a group of civilians, including two Reuters news staff.
U.S. special operations forces were conducting offensive operations inside Pakistan despite sustained public denials and statements to the contrary by U.S. officials.
A leaked diplomatic cable provided evidence that during an incident in 2006, U.S. troops in Iraq executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence. The disclosure of this cable was later a significant factor in the Iraqi government’s refusal to grant U.S. troops immunity from prosecution beyond 2011, which led to U.S. troops withdrawing from the country.
A NATO coalition in Afghanistan was using an undisclosed “black” unit of special operations forces to hunt down targets for death or detention without trial. The unit was revealed to have had a kill-or-capture list featuring details of more than 2,000 senior figures from the Taliban and al-Qaida, but it had in some cases mistakenly killed men, women, children, and Afghan police officers.
The U.S. threatened the Italian government in an attempt to influence a court case involving the indictment of CIA agents over the kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric. Separately, U.S. officials were revealed to have pressured Spanish prosecutors to dissuade them from investigating U.S. torture allegations, secret “extraordinary rendition” flights, and the killing of a Spanish journalist by U.S. troops in Iraq.
In apparent violation of a 1946 U.N. convention, Washington initiated a spying campaign in 2009 that targeted the leadership of the U.N. by seeking to gather top officials’ private encryption keys, credit card details, and biometric data.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/04/bradley_manning_trial_10_revelations_from_wikileaks_documents_on_iraq_afghanistan.html

[NM_Birder]

12. No, I'm saying,.. just like in the example of Hugh Thompson JR......

Do it the right way, and not send classified materials to foreign groups for review and release. -OR- least you go to prison as a thief and a traitor.

What was in the other 699,990 some-odd thousand cables ? you don't know do you ? you only know what the news was told to tell you.

Manning is what he is,...... a thief and a traitor........and a convicted felon

[kpete]

14. you made me laugh

you only know what the news was told to tell you.


made mr. pete laugh too,
peace, kp

[NM_Birder]

58. if it wasn't true it could be even more funny !

But sadly it's reality. The news only gives parts of a story they are fed, and then from that "part of the story" the news only tells the portion they WANT to tell. Personal bias and interpretation fills in the holes and *POOF* we are all just a few pages in history away from beating each other to death over conflicting "portions" of a news feed.

[East Coast Pirate]

81. If you think about that long enough and hard enough you'll see colors.

you only know what the news was told to tell you.

[caseymoz]

23. I notice you don't elaborate on "the right way."

There's no "right way" to whistleblow on military/intelligence crimes now but to become a "traitor." Since Hugh Thompson, the laws have been written and enforced so there is no right way. You're a total sucker to fall for this, and you ruin the credibility of your point of view by doing so.

Manning did not sell or give information to the enemy. He did not take information with the purpose of aiding the enemy. He did not take the kind of information that would, except concerning as tarnishing the US reputation would, but then again, for what he revealed it's absolutely just that the US reputation be at least blemished, and more.

I can't respect your POV on any of your points.

[Marr]

25. +1

[LiberalLovinLug]

31. +2

[ConcernedCanuk]

38. +3

.
.
.

Also of note for birder,

just because it's "law"

don't make it right.

CC

[NM_Birder]

40. also worthy of note,

"the end does not justify the means".

You steal classified materials, and hand them out to unknown entities to distribute, you too can tell me I'm wrong.............from the cell right next to Manning.

Should have been life, but I'm satisfied with 35 years.

[caseymoz]

59. Well, let's look at the "means."

Means 1: Disobeying the laws of a renegade, immoral government, run by the wealthy, unresponsive to its people, oppressive and murderous abroad.

Means 2: stealing. And what did he steal? Stealing not just the act of expropriating something, it's also depriving the owner of the property. I'm sorry, making a copy and distributing it is not stealing. It's not until the Internet Age that the distinction becomes important.

And that information "stolen"-- by every right-- should belong to the people in any Democratic government. The only way a government can keep it secret is if it becomes a despotism. Manning didn't steal; he brought the information to its rightful owners, who didn't know they'd been robbed.

Therefore, IMO, those means need not be justified by ends because there is absolutely nothing wrong with them to begin with.

And as for your fantasy about putting me in a cell next to Manning, that just shows how delusional you are. Yeah, your "superior" moral platitudes are going to make that come true.

[NM_Birder]

62. fantasy ? Don't flatter yourself, none of my fantasies include you, and certainly not prison.

Interesting take, but ...back to reality. There are indeed materials called "classified", and those materials designated as "classified" are not to be copied, nor stolen, and of those "classified" materials that are not to be copied nor stolen, they are also not be released to people not included on the authorized "classified" materials list.

When you do release "classified" materials, you go to prison. I wish Manning a very long and tormented prison life.

You,....have a nice day

[cpwm17]

68. Many of the documents were classified by the criminals themselves

the criminals that were exposed by Bradley Manning.

This is a pretty good scam you support. All the criminals in government have to do is classify evidence for their criminality, which turns justice on its head. So in your system, this makes those that expose the crime the real criminals. It's the no snitching rule, popular with gangster thugs.

FL Birder

[caseymoz]

69. To quote your previous message.

"you too can tell me I'm wrong.............from the cell right next to Manning."

It sounded to me like a fantasy image of me in prison. To deny it one message later is being simply a horse's ass.

"I wish Manning a very long and tormented prison life."

Another power-trip punishment fantasy. So, you're taking what Manning did personally.

You're going on ignore because there's something about your level of anger and wishes of malice that tells me you will never say anything intelligent or worthwhile. You're definitely well-prepared for fascism. Have a life as lousy as you wish on anyone else.

[NM_Birder]

86. And I'm the angry one ? Better tomorrows man.

[suffragette]

98. Wishing "Manning a very long and tormented prison life" speaks volumes about your views on this.

That goes well beyond any ideas about justice served or injustice being done to a desire for vengeance and cruel punishment. It is vile.

[NM_Birder]

39. I don't need you to respect my POV,....

"My belief's do not require you to believe them" (sorry, I love that line) Where is Wikileaks based ? Is jullian Assange a US citizen ? Foreign means "non-United States"

He gave classified materials to an unauthorized foreign entity who in turn released the unauthorized classified materials. Wikileaks is not in the chain of command that is allowed access to classified military materials. Just because the news hasn't told you what else was released and the ramifications of that unauthorized release, doesn't mean all's well in the land of peaches and cream.

Either way, I am satisfied with the 35 years, and I hope he is treated in a manner suiting a treasonous thief.

[caseymoz]

71. How many other things don't you neede?

Last edited Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Apparently, you don't need to be informed by facts or reality either. Great if you're in love with your own rage and opinions.

[NM_Birder]

85. What facts do I have wrong ?

I believe in my opinions sure, can't say it's "love". Rage ?

You said you didn't respect my point of view, what facts do I have wrong ?

manning stole classified materials, removed them from the facility, and distributed them to unauthorized personnel. Manning will now spend 35 years in prison. Did I miss something ? I'm good with 35 years.

[idwiyo]

79. Once more: SHE. pfc Manning is a woman. Please, start using proper pronouns when talking about her.

[NM_Birder]

84. Sure, no offense meant......

I'm glad she didn't get a soft sentence, and I'm satisfied with 35 years.

[Chemisse]

96. Exactly.

[GoneFishin]

32. Yeah right.

[NM_Birder]

52. Everything I said is true, I see you agree with me, but I don't think you mean it ;)

He did steal classified materials.
he did release them to unauthorized personnel.
He did get caught.
He has been convicted.
He is in fact going to prison.

All true. The only opinion part is that I think he got what he deserved and I hope he is treated with the respect a thief and traitor deserve in military prison, ........most others think he deserves a peace prize.

[Caretha]

83. I hope he is treated

as a human being. It is too bad you have no morals.

[idwiyo]

77. pfc Manning is a wistleblower and NOTHING will ever change that. BTW, it's SHE. She is a woman.

Learn how to use proper pronouns when talking about females.

[NM_Birder]

103. Sure.....not my intention to insult.

She is guilty of stealing classified materials, she gave them to an unauthorized outside group for release, and she will now sit in a military prison alone for 35 years.

She (Chelsea) is a woman now, .....he (Bradley) was a man when he committed the crimes and was convicted. It's easy to incorrectly use a pronoun I'm sure you understand that.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

13. Plus even more here:

Too Often Forgotten: An Amazingly Long List of What We Know Thanks to Private Manning
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3518698

http://www.thenation.com/blog/175879/too-often-forgotten-amazingly-long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning#

[kpete]

16. thanks AnotherMcIntosh

appreciated and bookmarked

peace, kp

[LiberalLovinLug]

36. Curious

Many things revealed have "no interest" or "mild interest" to you personally. But you must understand that they have massive interest to those concerned.

Calling the Reuters + civilian turkey shoot in Iraq "an unfortunate accident" is frankly appalling.

But it boils down to your definition of "harms". Embarrassment and shame at illegal or deceptive behavior in order to push inhumane weapons or GM foods against the citizens wishes is only harmful to the moral reputations of those involved pushing them. These were not military secrets revealing schematics of secret installations. There is no physical harm involved. And if these revelations are not made public they will only get more brazen. Don't you feel that citizens need to keep them in check once in awhile? Is embarrassing a politician by revealing they are doing the opposite of what you'd expect they'd do such a harmful thing? Especially in a so-called democracy?

[JDPriestly]

41. I would like to bookmark your post. Could you start a new thread with it so that I can?

[kpete]

55. just for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023521363

and peace
kp

[JDPriestly]

60. Thanks.

[caseymoz]

18. Well, in 35 years . . .

After the politics of today evaporate and what's being argued now is settled, Manning will be regarded as a hero, and will probably be the only veteran to be remembered from the Iraq war.

[NoMoreWarNow]

19. he did break the law, the rest is your disgusting spin

Jebus...

[JDPriestly]

43. That was my view in the beginning. When I saw how Manning was being railroaded into a long

sentence term, I changed that view. The sentencing of Manning for crimes of conscience and the statements of so many in the government condemning him harshly for those same crimes of conscience makes me think that the government is trying to intimidate future whistleblowers.

That is incompatible with and contrary to the essence of democracy.

So I think that the crimes against a free society that were committed by our government in 1) hiding facts the citizens need to know; 2) judging Manning without a trial (in the statements of influential members of our government); 3) mistreating if not torturing Manning prior to trial; 4) attempting to keep the details of the Manning trial from the press with all kinds of efforts to make reporting difficult, are more serious than Manning's exposure of government documents about other government crimes and diplomatic gossip.

Manning committed crimes. The punishment is far too severe. It is intended to silence future whistleblowers and is disproportionate to the crimes that Manning committed.

We need more people like Manning, more people who tell the truth as their conscience dictates. We should not discourage the few people who come forward.

[NoMoreWarNow]

100. yes, not to mention his incredible cruel imprisonent early on-- tantamount to torture

[KoKo]

104. Recommend!

[NM_Birder]

49. Everything i said is true.....

He stole classified materials.
He distributed the classified materials to unauthorized personnel.
He fully understood that is was improper procedure.
He was caught, tried and convicted.
he is in Prison.

The only part you can disagree with is your personal opinion of him. I am glad he is in prison, and I hope he receives the treatment suiting a treasonous thief in a military prison.

[NorthCarolina]

97. Please elaborate on something you have now mentioned a few times:

"I hope he receives the treatment suiting a treasonous thief in a military prison"

Could you please provide a few examples of what you consider proper "treatment" for "a treasonous thief" while in a Military prison?

Based on your posts, I am assuming that you are hoping for extreme physical abuse from other inmates, or possibly a shiv in the back maybe? Please, tell us what your "hope" is for his "treatment". Don't be shy, we already can see your stripes, so please be honest and let it fly.

Remember, only a chicken shit rat bastard would make a statement like that and then be too afraid to back it up, so I'm sure you will not hold back or disappoint.

Eagerly awaiting your response.

[NM_Birder]

102. Take a deep breath..........

I think a prisoner GUILTY of the crimes he committed, would be nothing but a HUGE problem concerning the behavior of other inmates in a general population setting. The crimes he is GUILTY of, could and in my opinion WOULD cause other inmates to become more agitated and put everybody in a more dangerous situation. Throwing a 150lb defenseless meat sack, convicted of stealing classified military materials and then releasing them, into the jaws of a military prison population would be unjustly cruel,... don't you think ?

I think the nightmare, the horror..... and the trauma of being isolated for 35 years is a fitting punishment, he is not going to prison for rehabilitation, he's going for punishment. I would feel pity if he were thrown to the wolves. A "shiv" ....really ? I think you watch too much "lockdown".

"Chicken shit rat bastard"...I assume you are talking about me ? I hope you have a nice day, I hope you learn to control your anger because only on the internet can you get away with that level of foolishness. If you were hoping for some sort of graphic description or bloodthirsty rant I would say you might need too talk to somebody because there might be some issues you haven't dealt with.

it's pretty clear you don't know me, or even come close to understanding me. Don't be so eager next time.

I'm on here and there, but I'll check to see if you respond, and I will too.
Take Care, I mean that.

[KoKo]

105. Is that to be taken as a threat against another member of DU?

You Say:

"I'm on here and there, but I'll check to see if you respond, and I will too.
Take Care, I mean that."

[NM_Birder]

107. Are you joking ?

How could you possibly take that as threat ? he responded to me on Saturday, I'm not on every day and I want to hear what his response is.



let me try this one,.... just for note I am not threating you with this comment, if you feel that I am......I'm not.

have a pleasant day, free of negative incident and rich in laughter. I mean that.

[NM_Birder]

108. I'm disappointed .............

But I guess not surprised you don't have anything more to say.

There is not much more to say is there ? You called me names, (very clever by the way) you made assumptions and you threw as good as you have into a weak attempt to start an argument. That pretty much emptied the bag didn't it ?

One poster felt threatened by me saying "take care"
I assure you, no threat intended, it's just a way of saying "goodbye"

...take care.

[Demeter]

20. You know, so Did John Adams, Sam Adams, Paul Revere, Patrick Henry, all the Founders

and their wives and their children...George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, the list goes on...

So why don't you sit down somewhere and contemplate the difference between ONE "god-damned piece of paper" and another?

[NM_Birder]

44. you win in my book............

for the absolute most obscure example of "swing and a miss".

[Cleita]

34. My hope is that Dick Cheney will be his cell mate for outing

Valerie Plame and lying us into war among his many other war crimes. May Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice and Powell occupy the same cell block for their aid and abetting of this criminal as well. However Manning's so called crimes aren't even a tiny match for what that cabal did under Cheney's leadership.

[sabrina 1]

70. In 35 years she could be the President of the US. Did you ever hear of Nelson Mandela?

He got 25 years in jail. He was vilified too, called a traitor, an enemy of the state etc by those who did not want to change the status quo. Cheney was for Apartheid, eg.

But time and the emergence of truth and facts has a way of changing things. Mandela ended up President of the country that put him away for 25 years.

Who would have though after his sentencing that such a thing was even remotely possible?

I am glad to be on the right side of history on this. I want the record to show that not all Amercians supported the destruction of our Constitutional rights, or viewed those who tried to warn us as 'traitors' or 'criminals'.

[DontTreadOnMe]

54. yeah... maybe kpete found sonething of substance.

The Anti-Obama smell is strong on this one.

Can't the paranoids with hair on fire go start a new site, or something.

[CincyDem]

5. Hugh Thompson Jr was awarded the Soldier's Medal...

...the nation's highest award for military valor in non-combat conditions.

In 1968 he flew the first "rescue" helicopter into Mai Lai. When he returned to the base, he went into the CO's office and reported what he had seen. He was appreciated for blowing the whistle about what was happening in that village.

40+ years later, Manning gives us the video of gunning down unarmed men while laughing like they're playing video games and we don't even want to know their names. Our only interest is in punishing the person who somehow sullied the reputation of our "fine" troops.

[NM_Birder]

8. What if Hugh Thompson Jr had ....

Sent the information regarding what he had seen to a foreign and unknown entity for review and release ?

What manning did was wrong, regardless of his intentions, you don't steal and send classified materials to unauthorized foreign groups for review and release. What was in the other 699,999 pieces of classified cables ?

manning should be in for life, but 35 years is close enough.

[NoMoreWarNow]

21. Hugh Thompson threatened to fire on US soldiers

he could have been taken down very easily for that, if the PTB wanted to. Aiding the enemy, anyone?

[progressoid]

22. Unknown entity?

Boy, Julian Assange sure spends a lot of time on tv for an unknown entity.

[NM_Birder]

42. LOL...he's on TV, he MUST be OK.

Where exactly is he hiding out these days ?

[progressoid]

45. In many ways he's better known than many newspaper publishers

or heads of government agencies.

[NM_Birder]

47. LOL,...I'd comment, but I think you're serious.

[JDPriestly]

46. Manning went to his superior officer and received no satisfactory answer.

It's the superior officer who should have been courtmartialed for failing to fulfill his duty to punish his soldiers for war crimes.

[NM_Birder]

50. Hope manning is satisfied now, I guess I'm satisfied with 35 years.

I agree that Manning is not the only one who should be in Prison, but regardless, nobody can justify the theft and release of classified materials. And for his part in the theft and release of the classified materials, he is exactly where he should be.

[JDPriestly]

51. Not for 35 years. That is extreme.

And that is especially true, because so much of what he exposed demonstrated the crimes and corruption of government and the powerful.

What he really exposed was a failing so-called democracy.

It's very sad.

We need to pay more attention to the corruption in high places that surrounds us than to whether Manning committed crimes. The corruption is hurting our country many, many times more than any embarrassing truths that Manning exposed.

[NM_Birder]

53. Couldn't agree more, regarding the need to weed out corruption, ........

The pandering, the corruption, the deceit, corporate manipulation ...I agree completely that it is eating the US away like an aggressive cancer.

However.........steal classified materials, and then distribute them to unknown foreign entities ? Not a good plan,.... especially since manning has no more idea than the rest of us what was REALLY distributed, where it REALLY went, and what the ramifications will REALLY be. I'm glad he has 35 years to come to terms with it. I wish him a long and tormented prison existence.

[JDPriestly]

63. I would not wish "a long and tormented prison existence" on anyone. What a horrible wish.

How utterly lacking in compassion when you think this was a white collar crime.

Unlike Bush and Obama, Manning has never ordered the killing of anyone.

We need more honest soldiers like Manning. They might make a more honest country of us.

Our government uses our secrecy laws to hide its corruption.

To expose the corruption in our government, we have to have whistleblowers who ignore the secrecy laws. That's how exposing corruption works.

Sorry. Can you tell me how corruption that reaches into the very agencies and legislatures and courts that are supposed to seek it out and destroy it (as does ours) can be revealed unless someone breaks the secrecy laws that permit the agencies and legislatures and courts to hide their corruption?

There is no way but to speak out in spite of the secrecy laws.

Ironically, the government uses international communication means, presumably the same cables that the UK and our government connects to in the surveillance program to transmit its messages to people like Bradley Manning in Iraq.

If, when we use our internet provider to transmit our communications, the government claims that we are making them public and no longer own them. But when the government uses the same cables to transmit its messages as we do (I assume they do at certain points during transmission), those messages remain private. I don't see the logic in that.

If our messages are public when we get on the phone line and call our aunts in D.C., then why are the government's messages private when they get on a phone line and call someone (same phone lines we use) in D.C. Do they have a completely separate, private system? I don't think so. They have secure lines within their facilities, but at some point they use the same lines we do. How does that work. They encrypt their information. So what. We can too, but they still want to take it.

This is about a government giving itself more rights in terms of freedom speech and press and association than it gives the people. That is not democracy. That is a dictatorship. Our government is supposed to answer to us, not the other way around. We are supposed to have privacy. Our government is not supposed to claim privacy rights.

[Mc Mike]

99. All your posts in this thread are right on, JDP.

Interesting how the gov demands rights for themselves that they strip from us.

For national security purposes, they must know everything about us. For national security purposes, we can't know anything about their actions.



Brad Blog amplified a Chris Hayes piece June 28 that highlighted a second "national security vs. whistleblower" contradiction, that showed another double think double standard:

"Hayes cites Starr's reporting in order to point out the hypocrisy in how some leaks, those seemingly meant to make the Pentagon look good, are, apparently, perfectly fine in the eyes of many of the very same people who have otherwise criticized --- and even called for the arrest of --- both Snowden and Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, who had the temerity to report on Snowden's leaks."

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=10103

I never saw if anyone put this on DU at the time, but it didn't make a big splash, if it was posted. (And I haven't lost track of the fact that we're talking about Manning and Wikileaks, not Snowden and Greenwald. Not trying to conflate the 2 issues, either.) Chris Hayes 5.5 min video is included in the bb link, good ideas worth viewing. The 8 para sum up of Hayes' idea is a quick read, anyway.



And a final 'national security' double think that is troubling is that so much of this information is already known. Whether it is the mechanics of the REAL 9-11 attacks on us by our enemies, or our attacks on our enemies in the world wide theater of war, or the collateral damage our attacks induce causing us to LABEL non-combatant innocent victims as 'enemies', or our treatment of the UN and Spanish and Italian governments as 'non-friendlies' -- in every case, the other parties already know what they did and what we did, the only people who have to be kept in the dark about the facts are the hundreds of millions of American citizens who don't have national security clearances to know classified info. So, who is being treated like an 'enemy of the state' here is obvious.

[KoKo]

106. He also offered the files to the NYT....but they didn't reply to him.

I don't have the link handy but that was in his trial.

[hack89]

109. He could have gone to any member of Congress

as the law permits. Surely there are some members that would have helped him. But he choose not to follow the law.

He could also have gone to the Army Inspector General - which he did not do.

The point being he had several legal options left - all of which he rejected.

[JDPriestly]

110. And the NSA surveillance would have caught him.

Members of Congress knew that the NSA was overreaching and doing something wrong. They may know of war crimes, but they can't say anything about the extent of the NSA spying or do anything about the war crimes.

Doing something about the spying and the war crimes are, sad to say, Obama's very difficult job. Congress could pass laws limiting the discretion of the executive branch with regard to say, spying, but members of Congress cannot even speak out about the spying.

The president, whether Bush or Obama is the commander in chief of the military and directs the intelligence bureaus. Obama is in a very difficult position, so I don't criticize him too much for not being able to right terrible crimes to our nation's Constitution and reputation, but he is the only person with the power to stop what is going on.

[hack89]

111. Going to Congress would mean it would most likely become public

Do you think a man like Dennis Kucinich or a woman like Elizabeth Warren, for example, would cover up war crimes?

The point being that Manning would not have been in legal jeopardy.

[JDPriestly]

112. Dennis Kucinich would have been viewed by many, as he so often was, as only a kook.

Elizabeth Warren was not in the Senate when Manning released the documents.

Manning began releasing documents in 2009.

Manning, who worked as an intelligence analyst, was arrested in 2010 after giving Wikileaks the documents earlier that year and in 2009.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/082113-bradley-manning-sentenced-to-35-273045.html

Elizabeth Warren was not elected to the Senate until 2012.

n September 2011, Warren announced her candidacy for the U.S. Senate, challenging Republican incumbent Scott Brown. She won the general election on November 6, 2012, to become the first female Senator from Massachusetts. She was assigned to the Senate Special Committee on Aging, the Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee and the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Warren

[hack89]

113. So every Dem in office would have ignored war crimes?

Last edited Wed Aug 28, 2013, 02:39 PM - Edit history (1)

I only tossed out those two names as examples of the type of people that represent the Democratic party - honest, moral people that would have helped Manning. Surely you agree that there are some in Congress?

[JDPriestly]

114. Probably.

Because they had plenty of warning that such things were going on after Abu Ghraib.

Bernie Sanders might have said something. But he generally is more interested in economic issues.

And a kid like Manning probably would never have heard of Sanders because Sanders doesn't get much media coverage or at least didn't then.

[hack89]

115. That is pretty cynical. nt

[JDPriestly]

116. Yes. And discouraged. I worked very hard to get Obama elected and re-elected.

I am very, very, deeply disappointed. And I think a lot of DUers are. We watch the news stories very carefully. Many of us are active in the Democratic Party -- maybe the majority of us.

And to see all the work we put in wasted to do favors for the Military-Industrial complex and send jobs overseas instead of to build our own nation is very, very troubling.

The disillusionment and cynicism, the anger on DU is despair. Where do we turn for responsible, sane government?

If not Obama, who?

[DontTreadOnMe]

65. The Manning supportors are blinded from the facts.

They point out something good, like exposing the helicopter video.. but then ignore the rest of what he did.

It is selective recognition of the facts.

It is also a losing political strategy.

[chervilant]

76. Oh, my!

Your opinion regarding Ms. Manning is just that -- an opinion. When I contemplate the malfeasance revealed by her courageous act, I have a difficult time trying to "blame" her for making us aware of the multitude of crimes committed using our tax dollars. And, then, I think, "Thank you, Ms. Manning, for your selfless courage."

[DeSwiss]

87. ....

[Rebellious Republican]

27. Seems to be the trend.

[frazzled]

9. That's trying to paint a scenario like

the one in which a protester throws a metal barrier at a policeman, breaks through the designated lines, and then levels charges of police brutality when he or she is cuffed. I don't buy those kinds of tautological charges. Civil disobedience is fine, but it must be accompanied by the dignity to accept that breaking a law runs the risk of paying the punishment (even if you think that punishment unjust), and that by doing so, one is calling attention to the laws themselves. To her credit, Manning pled guilty to many of the charges and was willing to serve the time. Everyone should accept that a minimum of 20 years for those charges was going to be the price paid for the "good to society" that was generated by the act. And one should remember that this particular act was one wholly covered by the military and its internal laws.

Say what you will about the leaks themselves (I would not characterize them as "countless stories of malfeasance and corruption," even after re-reading the well-circulated "Ten Revelations&quot . But whatever one's position on that, the discussion should be about the leaks and their content, not about the person who decided to put themselves on the line by breaking the law to reveal them.

This has all turned into a cult of personality, and that's always a dangerous road to take.

[JDPriestly]

48. That is because the government mishandled Manning and the situation.

[lumpy]

56. Hear hear

n

[WillyT]

15. K & R !!!

[limpyhobbler]

24. Another gem from the Manning leaks: US State Department killed a minimum wage increase in Haiti

Your tax dollars at work.

Contractors for Fruit of the Loom, Hanes and Levi’s worked in close concert with the US Embassy when they aggressively moved to block a minimum wage increase for Haitian assembly zone workers, the lowest-paid in the hemisphere, according to secret State Department cables.

The factory owners told the Haitian Parliament that they were willing to give workers a 9-cents-per-hour pay increase to 31 cents per hour to make T-shirts, bras and underwear for US clothing giants like Dockers and Nautica.

But the factory owners refused to pay 62 cents per hour, or $5 per day, as a measure unanimously passed by the Haitian Parliament in June 2009 would have mandated. And they had the vigorous backing of the US Agency for International Development and the US Embassy when they took that stand.

http://www.thenation.com/article/161057/wikileaks-haiti-let-them-live-3-day


This is the kind of stuff the government is trying to hide.

They are doing the dirty work for corporations abroad. And the more we let them get away with it, the worse it is going to get.

[kpete]

26. Taxpayer Millions:

and they lied about it too:

The disclosure that taxpayers' money was used to cover the companies' compliance costs raises new questions over the relationship between Silicon Valley and the NSA. Since the existence of the program was first revealed by the Guardian and the Washington Post on June 6, the companies have repeatedly denied all knowledge of it and insisted they only hand over user data in response to specific legal requests from the authorities.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/23/nsa-prism-costs-tech-companies-paid

[struggle4progress]

88. The term of Bush-appointee Ambassador Sanderson ended less than a week after

that 10 June 2009 cable, on 16 June 2009. And if you didn't know what the Bush Administration's foreign policy looked like, then I think you weren't paying attention

[limpyhobbler]

89. Yeah. Aren't you glad Manning leaked these docs exposing how the State Dept.

fought to keep the minimum wage low in Haiti?

[struggle4progress]

90. During Bush years here at DU, I took the view that "Ownership Society" was code

for "exploitation of wage slaves by factory owners." Long before that, I was interested for a while in the maquiladora industry in Mexico just south of the US border. I'm gonna guess you don't even remember the famous ad in US magazines from those years, trying to woo investors with tales about how low maquiladora wages wee

So, no, sorry: Manning didn't teach me anything about the rightwing vision for America and for American foreign policy

[limpyhobbler]

92. I think your main point is this was Bush's fault, not Obama's. Is that right?

[struggle4progress]

93. Go learn the history of Haiti during the Bush I and Bush II years

[limpyhobbler]

94. I think the policy toward Haiti has been consistent from Bush to Obama.

[struggle4progress]

91. Hispaniola is a textbook example of The Ownership Society (2008)

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=3333&mesg_id=3350

[LiberalArkie]

28. The 1% got their Hope and Change

[gtar100]

29. Kudos to those who have *not* been silent about this.

It's the corporate media, their bought and paid for servants in congress, and the Military that would be happy to not hear anything from the public at large. Remind me again who all these people are there to serve?

[GoneFishin]

35. Regarding those who condemn Manning and believe he did more harm than good, I must

assume they feel more sympathy for the perpetrators of the crimes exposed than those they injured and killed. I find that to be twisted, especially on a Democratic site.

[DontTreadOnMe]

57. No, you have entirely wrong.

There are plenty of DUer who believe there is a correct way to "whistleblow".

Simple as that. You do it the wrong way, and jeopardize other people's lives, and you are labeled a traitor... or convicted of espionage.

Manning has been convicted of espionage. Are you defending criminals?

Manning might have had the right intentions but his actions were criminal. DUers just can't accept his trial as legitimate.
Meanwhile the majority of the country does. So go live in your extreme point of view, where you feel good with yourself, but people who continue to post against other DUers who you disagree with should be deleted from DU membership.

[Gravitycollapse]

61. "Are you defending criminals?" - Yes, I am at least.

[GoneFishin]

67. It's no matter to me. I am none of those you attempt to mischaracterize me as. You know nothing

about me, except this because I will tell you outright. I am for fairness. And ignoring all the root causes, and assholes who sent our guys into danger based on lies and many motivated by profit, while going after a subordinate who had to do what nobody else had the balls to do is fucked up. I don't dispute that he broke the law. Only that selective prosecution is out of fucking control in the U.S., and yes, I think it is unfair. And anybody who thinks it is ok to let the criminals responsible for 4000 of our guys being killed based on WMD lies is, as I said, twisted.

[rhett o rick]

72. An ironic argument from someone with a name like yours. The early Americans that said

"Dont tread on me" were saying it to their government that considered them traitors.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I am not advocating revolution, I am advocating reform. We can not have a Democracy when our elected representatives put laws in place that allow them to hide their actions behind a wall of secrecy. Transparency is essential for Democracy. Secrecy is essential for an authoritarian tyranny.

[Gravitycollapse]

75. I'm not terribly concerned with pleasing you by not seeming "extreme."

As if by supporting a convicted criminal I become some sort of dangerous preterite. People are convicted wrongfully, ethically or legally, of crimes all the time. Their conviction alone does not necessitate any abandonment of support. In fact, if the conviction is wrong, that only requires more support.

[MotherPetrie]

78. K&R

[fascisthunter]

82. Manning's worst critics are turn-coats

to this country, democracy and this country.

[blkmusclmachine]

95. +1. “hope and change,” that phony campaign slogan from 2008.

Campaign Obama was a slick lie. He never really existed.