What is with so many of you referring to Manning with male pronouns

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)

when you know full well that she requested female pronouns?

Does anyone want to explain this to me?

When Elizabeth Warren said she was Native American and Scott Brown denied her this right, I remember a lot of you were calling him a racist.

How is that you feel ok to deny someone the right to use the pronoun they feel fits them the best?

(ADDITION: i have mentioned this through the thread, but i am talking about people who know. not people who missed the announcement about her transition)

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. Uh, she was a he 36 hours ago. Give me a day or two to adapt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. it takes you so much time to type up she more than he?

its not like she was your close personal friend for years

all you are expected to do is type the pronoun she preferred. also she was not a he, transitioning is a long struggle and she was struggling for years.

[BeyondGeography]

11. That means you were calling her a he when he was a she then

I forgive you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. when i learnt her preferred pronoun i adapted. you shouldn't mock someone's transition

its no joke and its very hard for people to do. it also comes with a lot of hatred and violence. the violence towards trans-people stem from this core belief that we cannot present ourselves the way we see ourselves.

[BeyondGeography]

28. Your thread is what's ridiculous

And I'm not the only one to point it out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i am sure you are not the only person defending transphobia

because it is highly widespread

this does not make my thread ridiculous.

[BeyondGeography]

39. You're using Manning as a prop to demonstrate your self-assumed moral superiority

And it's highly widespread.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. its not my moral superiority, its my actual behavior. nt

[tom_kelly]

125. Lighten up, Francis

[Flatulo]

130. Wouldn't that be Francine?

[dipsydoodle]

209. No

Frances.

[skydive forever]

95. Absolutely ridiculous

And FWIW, IMHO, until "she" doesn't have a penis, then "she is a he. Now he is free to act and behave like a female all he wants, but biology is still the rule to me. If science makes me closed minded, then so be it. But this is just dumb.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

104. Oh bother. Here we go again, tutoring people who are ignorant about gender disphoria:

And FWIW, IMHO, until "she" doesn't have a penis, then "she is a he. Now he is free to act and behave like a female all he wants, but biology is still the rule to me. If science makes me closed minded, then so be it. But this is just dumb.

Sexual (gender) identity does not depend on external appearances like genitalia.

Similarly, racial identity (even though it is an obsolete concept) does not depend on how light or dark or blue or green a person's skin is.

Similarly, national identity and citizenship do not depend on external appearances such as accent or religious symbols or nose shape.

When a person is unhappy about the sexual identity they have inherited or has been assigned to them, then we as a society have ways to reduce that deep unhappiness at no cost to ourselves, beginning with pronouns.

Pronouns cost you no taxes. Are you taxed enough already? Is that it?

[Iggo]

106. You're wrong.

[defacto7]

180. But science is NOT on your side.

You might want to read up before claiming science as your support. You are wrong, not science.

[LostOne4Ever]

259. +infinity (nt)

[Starry Messenger]

213. So brain science is unknown to you.

I wouldn't be so quick to call yourself smart.

[MNBrewer]

261. Science didn't make you closed minded, you chose that status.

[1monster]

144. Heck, for many of us, this is the first we've heard that s/he requested the feminine

pronoun. And at this point I haven't seen any other referenc to the request.

[libodem]

177. Yep

I didn't know until last night. I wish I could put into words the uncomfortable sensation this stirs up in me. I feel accused, bullied, and smeared all at the same time. And I didn't even do anything.

Is that the point? To give everyone a taste?


Hmmm. I just don't get it.


I'm still recommending because I believe you are trying to educate us dumbasses.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

184. i clarified this through the thread, that i am referring to people who are deliberately calling her

male.

not people who didnt know or have forgotten.

[ladyVet]

203. I'm one of those who didn't know this had been requested.

It isn't always an issue, at least in my admittedly limited experience.

I will refer to Ms Manning in the proper manner in future, out of respect for her wishes.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

97. Your post has no logic. We change our reference to a person's preferred sexual identity ...

That means you were calling her a he when he was a she then I forgive you.

Your post has no logic. We change our reference to a person's preferred sexual identity only after they declare it. It doesn't matter how long it took them to get to that point. That was then. This is now.

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. Actually, I don't think I've used either pronoun in recent days...

...because I haven't participated in the Manning gender threads. Not my burning issue.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. manning isn't my burning issue either. however transphobia is part of a bigger set

of my burning issues

[elehhhhna]

143. la lion, i think some of this does come by honestly

Analogus to this is how people call a baby The Baby for the first few weeks. There are whole studies written about this.

I'm going to try to be kind to the transphobic/squickedout/not sure how they feeeeeeel people here. And simply alert on the fools. Join me, won't you?


xox elena

[MNBrewer]

194. I admit that I've made the "he" error, even in a post supporting her.

I've made that error IRL with people I know, and it's very embarrassing. Those who will adapt to the new gender will do it fairly soon, I think. Those who won't (either because they are being stubbornly bigoted, or bigotedly stubborn), won't.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

196. people make mistakes and forget. i am not saying there is malice there

[MNBrewer]

198. Agreed, and I think some malice is clearly evident in some protestations

e.g., I won't be bullied into using language incorrectly.

I guess they won't be bullied into being a decent human being either.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

200. exactly

[Whisp]

45. that is correct.

not everyone reads this place or is up on everything all the time.

that was an unfair accusation.

It reminds me of this GG and Miranda 'boyfriend', spouse, partner thing when a whole lot of DUers didn't even know GG was gay and did not know he was married and if you didn't use the 'right' word you were a homophobe. Now if you don't use the right word at the right time, you are a transphobe.

ridiculous.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. i am specifically talking about people who are discussing her transition and calling her male

its not that they did not know since they are actually talking about it

[East Coast Pirate]

72. You should put that in the OP

so they can't pretend not to know what you're talking about.

[DontTreadOnMe]

99. This is the new TransphobiaUnderground

Call out and berate DUers... who even support LGBT Rights. Hey, but who cares, right?
Transgender pronouns are of critical importance and are on the Top 10 List of things we need to fix...

[Lizzie Poppet]

114. I would probably be doing the same thing, except...

I'd probably still be calling Manning a "he" (because that's still the case, biologically), except I'm fortunate enough to have a couple very good transgender friends* who were able to clue me in on the details of gender identification and the etiquette of references thereto. I learned from them that it's the polite thing to do to refer to someone with their preferred pronoun, once you're aware of that preference.

* Yes, I know...that sounds like one of those "some of my best friends are..." lines...but it happens to be literally true.

[Ms. Toad]

88. You can have a day or two in face to face conversations about her.

Here you have the luxury of being able to re-read your posts before you hit enter. There is no reason for you to need any time to adapt.

[tblue37]

145. So simply *proofread* your post to make sure you haven't accidentally

reverted to the wrong pronoun just out of habit.

[Bay Boy]

3. I'm not sure that you're example works very well...

that is unless Elizabeth is transforming into a Native American.

I think it's hard for some people to refer to Ms Manning as a she because she hasn't taken (been allowed) to take the first step towards reassignment.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. Actually my example works well because aesthetically Warren presents as White

but she isn't and it was not up to Brown to decide that for her.

[whopis01]

229. You might want to rethink your wording there.

Aesthetically specifically refers to beauty, not simply appearance in general.

Saying someone aesthetically presents as white is like saying someone beautifully presents as white, or attractively presents as white.

It makes it sound like you feel white people are more attractive than others. I am sure that is not what you mean or feel.

But words do have specific meanings - a concept at the core of this thread.

[JackBeck]

6. Not every trans identified person takes hormones or goes through gender reassignment surgery. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. exactly. none of this is cheap, easily available or necessarily fits ones notion

of what it means to transition

[backscatter712]

51. What about our President?

He was born to a white mother and a black father. He identifies himself as black. Are you going to call him "whitey"?

[rl6214]

191. I'm not going to call him either

I'm going to call him Mr President.

[Puzzledtraveller]

5. Some are honestly not sure what to say, and some are willfully ignoring it.

I would not take issue with anyone who just is unsure this early. Anyone who is willfully ignoring make this obvious in other ways as we have seen.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. my point is that why does one feel one has the right to question her choice of pronouns

what is there to be so unsure about, she used female pronouns and that really should end the matter about how to refer to her

[Puzzledtraveller]

17. People do have a right to say whatever they want and question whatever they want.

Others are sincer but just are not policing themselves or thinking about it that much, yet.

[lapislzi]

127. Please excuse the ignorance of the frankly ignorant.

I don't know much about transgender issues. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to learn fast, because putting my foot in my mouth is not something I enjoy.

If using or not using a certain pronoun helps me to keep the lines of communication and education open, and helps another person to feel comfortable in a conversation, it is certainly the least I can do. Even if I don't fully understand yet.

I'm certainly not in the business of intentionally putting salt in people's paper cuts. If I do so unintentionally, I always try to apologize.

My job is to accept, understand, and learn. Hopefully I and others will catch up.

[defacto7]

181. I really appreciate your attitude!

I wish there were more like you here.

[JackBeck]

10. Like those who are saying that since she still has male anatomy

that makes her a guy.

Those are some of the worst offenders.

[Puzzledtraveller]

19. Yeah, that's a good example.

Ugly too.

[tarheelsunc]

86. I took a peek at Free Republic... that's the typical response from those ignoramuses.

But this is DU and that sort of bigotry really does not belong here.

[panzerfaust]

308. "... since she still has male anatomy ... Those are some of the worst offenders ..." ?

Nonplussed.

Genetically, anatomically the reality is that this person is a male. He may well not want to be a male, but, at this moment he is.

If he were free to be out walking about in the world, I doubt that there would be many women who would welcome him into their locker-rooms in his current anatomic state - whatever the state of his mind might be.



I expect that if I had some sort of relationship with this person, I would call them whatever they wanted to be called - but that does not change what the biological fact of the matter is at this moment, to assert otherwise is to have a strange view of the world indeed.

[tblue37]

166. What the OP is referring to, I am quite certain, is NOT innocent slips

made out of habit (though simple proofreading could correct those in an internet post if the poster is a person of good will who believes that Ms. Manning's wishes matter at all).

Nor is the OP concerned with the mistaken use of masculine pronouns by people who have not yet heard about Ms. Manning's gender identity, or who have heard of it, but in a way that makes them unsure about whether the reported information is accurate.

The OP is concerned with attitudes like the one forcefully expressed in post #95 above*, which is the deliberate, willful refusal to accord Ms. Manning the respect involved in acceding to her simple request to use "she" and "her" when referring to her.

Post #95 makes me very sad. It is not merely disrespectful. It is unkind--and it is both disrespectful and unkind in a situation where respect and kindness would be so easy to express.

How hard would it be to support Ms. Manning in something so simple as calling her by the pronoun she wants to be called by? It costs us nothing at all--not money, and not time even time or effort. It is a simple gesture of respect and kindness to someone who has faced and is still facing a lot of pain and suffering.

And even if a person strongly disapproves of what Ms. Manning did and strongly approves of her prosecution and sentencing, that is no reason to be nasty and dismissive about using the pronoun she has asked people to use when referring to her!

ON EDIT: *And in post #50 below.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

186. yeah i am not talking about people who didnt know or have forgotten

[leftynyc]

7. For Heaven's sake

Chill out some - we've been talking about Ms. Manning for a long time now and always with male pronouns. It's been one freeking day and I doubt anyone who counts around here is doing it maliciously.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. it is malicious to not respect someones preferred gender pronoun

ask anyone who is transitioning if that feels malicious or not.

its one thing if she were your personal friend and you got used to called her bradley, but to all of us, she is not a personal friend. i dont see how its so much harder to type she and not he. it seems sort of deliberate that people are not doing that.

[leftynyc]

21. Knock yourself out

Outrage seems to suit you well.

[GalaxyHunter]

8. got in the habit of calling Manning a He, takes a little bit to remember that Manning

is a she now.


its not like I see her or talk to her to get it into my head faster.


She was a he for so long that's what people know her as. You can't expect everyone to change so fast, can you?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. yes, i can. i do it. it's not that hard.

[GalaxyHunter]

14. well, sorry that everyone here is not as perfect as you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. i am not perfect. i am just not

arrogant enough to believe that i know her gender better than she does

[CBGLuthier]

37. The second I read the announcement I switched.

Are you perhaps suffering from some form of dementia that makes it harder for you?

[GalaxyHunter]

118. no, but after calling someone a HE for so long I still see HER as a HIM.

sorry I'm not as perfect as you.

[Divernan]

123. FYI - Here's what a jury said about your post.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Hi gang! I know that there is very high emotion over the Chelsea/Bradley Manning sentencing and subsequent transgender announcement. I've got to say that many of these discussions are getting pretty chippy. I'm voting to hide, and I'd ask everyone to maybe step back from the keyboard, enjoy the weekend, have a cold beverage, and come back a little more thoughtfully next week. Right now I'm seeing posts on both sides that are getting pretty mean spirited and condecending. Peace. Out.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The reply is negative, but contains no obscenities. If the question had been (as I have seen on DU), "Are you 'fucking retarded'?", or even used the word "tard", I would have voted to hide it. Obviously the issue is more important to the poster being alerted on than the person he/she was responding to, and I think there is value for all of us to know that.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Bigoted statement.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: A rude response to an honest post. Try convincing someone instead of castigating them.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Stupid remark but not alert worthy, lighten up Francis.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Au contraire, I believe the poster was reaching out to Galaxy Hunter, trying to see if he indeed had any handicap we should be aware of so we're not insensitive to his debilitating condition.

[markpkessinger]

13. I agree people should honor her request . . .

. . . But in fairness, some of this may be out of sheer habit. People have been writing about PFC Manning for months, and in doing so have been referring to her as "he" -- so it isn't necessarily out of malice or hostility to her transgendered status (although in some cases it certainly might be that). Also, the news that Manning wishes to be known as a woman named Chelsea Manning just came out in the last couple of days, and it is possible not everyone "got the memo," so to speak..

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. to be fair ALL the conversations that i am talking about are in the context of her transition

where they refer to her as HE. if you'd like i can post the links for you.

[markpkessinger]

66. In that case, I agree with you 100% n/t

[tblue37]

167. Please see my post #166 above. nt

[Capt. Obvious]

23. I think some members (that this is directed at) will start caring about that

once they make sure their hard earned tax dollars aren't paying for her reassignment surgery!

Priorities and all.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. LOL.. true

[Puzzledtraveller]

27. Yeah, that is weird, never expected to see such issue made of that here.

[backscatter712]

62. Prisons have the duty to provide prisoners with proper medical care.

I know, it's this whole thing with the Eighth Amendment and SCOTUS ruling that depriving prisoners of medical care being cruel and unusual punishment.

Why do DUers find it hard to accept that prisoners have the right to medical care. Including appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria including hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery?

[Ms. Toad]

260. Nothing I have seen attributed to her

suggests she is requesting surgery.

Not all trans* individuals have surgery. What I have seen is a desire to start hormone therapy.

[unblock]

24. yes, sir!

[bunnies]

78. ...

[Little Star]

25. hear, hear!

[geek tragedy]

30. Where it gets confusing is referring to past activities where

Private Manning self-identified as Bradley not Chelsea.

When the leaks occurred, was it Bradley/he or Chelsea/she?

Now, of course, it is Chelsea/she.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. the timeline thing i get and i was not questioning that.

. all these conversations i am talking about are happening while discussing her transition.

[geek tragedy]

48. It gets to be a juggling act.

"He released those files to Assange and now she is asking for a pardon."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. i would she consistently, but at the very least use it when referring to her transitioning

[geek tragedy]

61. Agreed, but I would not attribute to malice what mere force of habit could explain.

People have called Manning "he" for so long that it just comes out. Our conscious mind can recognize that Chelsea is a 'she' but we aren't fully conscious of the meaning behind every word we say or write.

[Ms. Toad]

263. "It just comes out"

is a valid explanation in a real time conversation. Far less so in an online forum discussing her transition where you have the luxury of time to re-read your posts before sending it

[tblue37]

169. Actually, it is not difficult. I would simply write,

"She released those files to Assange and now she is asking for a pardon."

Your reader will know you are referring to Manning, so you don't need to switch pronouns to refer to what she did in the past.

Just use the feminine pronoun, or if that seems confusing to you, just use her last name, or her military rank and last name: "Manning released those files to Assange and now she is asking for a pardon." or "PFC. Manning released those files to Assange and now she is asking for a pardon."

[geek tragedy]

173. Of course it is simple if one is conscious of the language one uses.

But, oftentimes language isn't that carefully considered.

[Jim Lane]

211. That juggling act is the least bad solution.

To give retroactive application to the currently preferred pronoun can lead to some jarring sentences, like "She was married to Jane Jones in a Mormon temple ceremony" (implying that the LDS Church recognizes same-sex marriage) or "He gave birth to twins" (even more unlikely than the LDS Church embracing marriage equality).

To continue current application of the previously preferred pronoun is, as the OP notes, disrespectful.

We're left with switching pronouns partway through a narrative. Your example sentence, "He released those files to Assange and now she is asking for a pardon," is an unfortunate consequence. Still, I prefer that to either of the alternatives.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

235. it's also possibly to just call her manning in the instances that would otherwise be confusing

manning released those files to Assange and now is asking for a pardon

i think any thought put into this that errs on the side of being an empathetic human being, is better than one that insists genitalia determines gender identification

[Jim Lane]

242. To some extent, one can dodge the issue that way, but it isn't always the best answer.

I just skimmed Chaz Bono's Wikipedia bio. I didn't notice any instances of using a pronoun for him during his pre-transition life. This follows your suggestion, but it results in some awkwardness of its own, with repeated use of "Bono" over a long stretch of prose when much more natural English usage would have been to use a pronoun occasionally. Transgender people shouldn't be condemned to clunky writing in situations where comparable passages about cisgender people would read better. (Hey, Skinner, why does the DU spell-check flag "cisgender"? As a cisgendered man (yeah, that one gets flagged, too), I protest.)

I'm not advocating for a solution "that insists genitalia determines gender identification." I'm starting with the same premise as in your OP -- to respect people's choices. If someone makes an autobiographical reference to how coming out as a lesbian "catapulted me into a political role that has transformed my life, providing me with affirmation as a lesbian, as a woman, and as an individual," which Bono did, then that person is, at least with regard to that time period, identifying as a woman (and is using the name "Chastity Bono" as the author).

As for being empathetic, an alternative voice was raised in the Wikipedia discussion of how to handle pronouns for the transman Patrick Califia. One editor, Stella Omega, wrote:

Pat Califia was a model for many women with transgender identity issues. In the days when she was female, she offered us the possibility that we could be true to ourselves even though we were missing our penis. With books like "macho Sluts" she gave us examples of a kind of masculinity that could be incorporated by a female body.

And honestly when I heard that my hero had begun transition I felt a bit shattered. Until then she had been the primary voice of butch empowerment. She embodied a queer way of looking at one's identity, a possibility to be accepted by other queers even though some of us had dicks and some of us did not.

For this reason, I feel that calling Califia "he" before transition is insulting and dismissive to butch women and negates her identity during that time.

(I'd give you a link but it includes colon-then-P, which produces a smilie. You can go to the Califia bio and select "Talk" at the top. If you're interested in a more general discussion of the pronoun issue among Wikipedians, there's this thread from 2004, prompted by the Califia article, and a much longer current discussion, prompted by the Manning article.)

[NuclearDem]

31. I totally get what you're saying, and it's irritating to me as well.

Trans* issues aren't addressed particularly well sometimes even in the progressive and LGB communities. I picked up on the pronoun issue quite a while ago because one of my former HS classmates is transgender (M2F). But even with that, I slip on the pronouns just because the gender binary is so programmed into us from birth.

[CBGLuthier]

33. Some of them are ignorant and some of them are assholes

Sorting the difference is a challenge,

Some people do not know that it does not take any treatment, process, surgery or whatever for the person to be respected and addressed as preferred. They are ignorant.

Some people are assholes and hate people who are different from them. They are assholes. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can somewhat excuse the ignorant but the assholes can take a flying fuck off a cliff to oblivion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. actually this is maybe the best explanation on this thread.

[tblue37]

170. Please see my post #166 above. nt

[lapislzi]

147. The ignorant are trying to learn.

At least this one. I was not aware that transition can begin with self-identification and never involve surgery. I'm catching up. I must admit that I don't think I've ever encountered a transgendered individual (and if I did, it would be none of my business anyway).

OK, so Ms. Manning is a self-identified female. She may or may not undergo physiological therapies pursuant to her gender transition. What's so hard about that?

Please be patient with the willing-to-be-educated.

[olddots]

34. I agree with Grumpy

I wasn't aware of this either ,had I not engaged in any manning discussions I may have made the same mistake as others .We are fed news that can be polluted by this media process ,who do we trust other than each other here to sift this out .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

35. "How is that you feel ok to deny someone the right to use the pronoun they feel fits them the best?"

Perhaps some Duers aren't as DU as they say they are?

[Emit]

36. I can honestly understand the pronoun mix up due to the time frame,

the context with which much of the broader story took place, etc. - unless it's done intentionally or with malicious intent.

What I am really having a huge problem with, though, and what I find absolutely insulting here on DU of all places is the "it" and "thing" or the "he-she" references. Those are simply unacceptable imho.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. i think people who are talking about her transition and keep referring to her as male

are just as egregiously malicious as those who say it or he-she

the timeline thing i get and i was not questioning that. all these conversations i am talking about are happening while discussing her transition.

[Orsino]

40. We're possibly distracted by her being held as a political prisoner in Leavenworth...

...as well as on DU.

[quinnox]

43. sheesh, people do have freedom of speech, ya know

if someone wants to refer to Manning as a he, that is their business. Trying to force people to do shit never works.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. i am not the government so first amendment rights are not my problem.

[wild bird]

58. So true.

I can't get the outrage here.

[frylock]

75. would you feel the same if someone exercised their 1A right to use a racial slur?

[quinnox]

81. depends on the circumstance

On DU? No, that is forbidden. So I would alert on it if I saw it here. In a real world setting, offline? I consider the right to free speech to be absolute. And also one of the foundations of this country. So even though I would find it offensive, the right to freedom of speech trumps my discomfort in that scenario.

[Ms. Toad]

266. The same DU rules apply to trans* individuals.

"Do not post bigotry based on someone's . . . gender identity"

[tarheelsunc]

89. Everyone has the right to make a fool/bigot of themselves. Doesn't mean they should. eom

[tblue37]

172. The OP is not trying to "force" people to use the appropriate pronoun. She is

pointing out that the willful refusal to respect Ms. Manning's gender identification is, well, disrespectful, and that since people on DU generally identify themselves as being committed to progressive, humane values, they should not want to deliberately treat someone so disrespectfully and unkindly when it is so easy to treat that person with the kindness and respect that we should accord to all human beings.

[idwiyo]

253. Sheesh, that kind of 'business' has a proper definition - transphobia. Or bigotry. Or both.

I will now exercise that same First Amendment right to say there is NO POINT trying to educate or convince a transphobic bigot to change their ways if they flatly refuse to do so while hiding behind First Amendment. The best way to deal with them is ridicule, alert for TOS violation, and expose them for what they are - transphobic bigots.

[nomorenomore08]

282. "Can" =/= "should." And "freedom of speech" is very relative on most Internet message boards. n/t

[backscatter712]

46. Thank you, La Lioness Priyanka. Ignorance used to be an excuse. No longer.

HER name is Chelsea Manning.

[pnwmom]

103. You think everyone already knows about her request? Lots of people only

go on DU occasionally, and it's not necessarily big news everywhere else.

[Violet_Crumble]

285. It was appearing in the international news section of most papers here...

http://www.theage.com.au/world/bradley-manning-wants-to-live-as-a-woman-called-chelsea-20130822-2seul.html

I read that before I checked in at DU, and this bit of the article gave me a heads up that I'll be referring to her as she requested whenever I talk about her at DU.

'I also request that starting today you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun."

It's far easier to do that posting at DU than it is when talking in RL, coz my mind's still getting used to it and I've slipped a few times, but at DU even my rapid stream of consciousness posting style gives the chance to do a double-check to make sure I got her gender correct. It shouldn't be hard for others to do as well. I think it's just a respect thing that when someone wants people to refer to them how they self-identify that I refer to them how they want...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. and you're exactly the type of person i am talking about. nt

[stevenleser]

56. That person has disrupted poorly

I've alerted. Let's hope MIRT is around.

[DURHAM D]

68. Looks like Skinner took care of it.

[NYC_SKP]

69. We've "lost" about a dozen homophobes this morning alone.

And they just keep coming.

[azurnoir]

192. with all due respect

I'm not all too sure homophobe is the correct term here, it should be transphobia, equating being transgendered with being Gay is simply factually wrong, I've known Transgendered people who are Gay and are Gay both prior and after gender reassignment surgery, but this not the rule by any means

[NuclearDem]

60. Great, I was hoping for another slice of pizza today.

Enjoy your permanent vacation.

[ljm2002]

54. I think it is only fair...

...to give people a bit of time to adjust.

All of the copious amounts of ink on the topic of Manning's leaked materials and trial, have been about Bradley Manning and have referred to Bradley Manning as "he" and "him", since she had not yet requested to be called "Chelsea" and live as a female.

We do need to respect her wishes, but on the other hand, if we are referring to the leaks and the trial, the leaks were made by Bradley Manning and the person on trial was Bradley Manning, so there is some gray area there, particularly in reference to things that happened before Bradley requested to be called Chelsea.

Any poster who denigrates Chelsea for this change, or otherwise uses it as a way to diminish her actions, should be roundly criticized. But I honestly think we should give it a few days before we get snippy with one another over using "he" instead of "she", or referring to Manning as "Bradley" instead of "Chelsea"... habits can be hard to break.

IOW, absent any evidence of ill intent, I suggest just politely reminding the other person and leaving it at that -- at least for a week or so.

Just my $.02, and maybe not even worth that...

[backscatter712]

59. Time's up.

Chelsea Manning made her announcement. Everyone posting in this thread has either read it, or at least heard of it.

Her name is Chelsea, and she wants to be regarded as female.

Altering your usage of pronouns shouldn't take more than fifteen seconds.

[Scootaloo]

63. Reflexive pronoun use, I figure

I know I'm having to make a conscious effort to remember to use "she," after so long knowing of her as Bradley and "he." It'll take a bit for the memo to really sink in. I suspect that for most people making the mistake, it's the same way. Hard to tell, though, especially with everything else being lobbed her way lately.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. i think though if this was speech i would believe the reflexive use more easily

but writing takes more thought/time than speech, and hence i dont think this is unintentional.

[Scootaloo]

70. True enough

Still, I think there's some honest, non-malicious "technical difficulties" going on for some people, and they'll get the hang of it shortly. Especially with all the reminders being given out about this.

[LostOne4Ever]

265. The ones who we really need to watch out for

Are the ones who are told about her request and willfully and deliberately continue to use the wrong pronoun.

[LittleBlue]

65. I'll just call Bradley/Chelsea "Manning"

to avoid slipping.

This doesn't sound like it's about Manning anymore, it's become a debate about more than that. Shouldn't this be in an LGBT forum somewhere?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. why should it be in the lgbt forum? are they the ones referring to manning by male pronouns?

[Capt. Obvious]

73. Because it makes some uncomfortable!!

Just like Chelsea does.

[backscatter712]

79. She asked to be called Chelsea. Why is that hard? n/t

[Iggo]

222. No, because it's not a problem in the LGBT forum.

[railsback]

71. Republicans declare themselves to be the moral authority

Am I now supposed to accept that because they tell me to? Limbaugh says he's right about everything. Him, too?

If Manning wants to be called 'Chelsea', then he's Chelsea.. but he's still a 'he'.

[NuclearDem]

74. No she's not.

Been over this a million times. Gender != sex. In fact, that's the whole concept of the T in LGBT - not mentally identifying with your chromosomal assigned sex.

She wants to be called Chelsea and for us to use female pronouns.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

76. Logic fails you. Neither Limbaugh nor you have the right to declare Chelsea's sexual identity.

(on edit: Removed "nt" from the title because there is text)

When you declare Manning to be a male against Manning's expressed request, you are aligning yourself with the Republicans who declare themselves to be the moral authority. You are declaring moral authority over Chelsea.

[bunnies]

90. Wish I'd written that.

[gollygee]

80. Only one person is the moral authority on who Manning is

And that's her. She is the authority on her.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

91. this. nt

[Rex]

129. It is simply a matter of respecting her wishes.

Either you do or you don't.

[tblue37]

176. It is also a matter of respecting her as a human being. How can that be so hard for

people to understand?

I am reminded of the Republicans' deliberate refusal to refer to the Democratic Party as the Democratic Party.

After all, people on DU get ticked off when Republicans deliberately say "the Democrat Party," because we know those references are intended to be disrespectful.

We can also tell when refusal to refer to Ms. Manning as "she" or "her" is intended to be disrespectful.

[Rex]

204. Spot on!

That is so true! So far it has almost been all disrespect imo.

[totodeinhere]

77. The issue of rights and respect for transgendered people is an extremely important one.

And we owe Chelsea a debt of gratitude for bringing this issue to the forefront. But we also owe her gratitude for the brave actions that she took when she leaked information that the American people needed to know. And since both things are important we need to be careful not to allow either issue to overshadow the other.

[cali]

82. It's bigotry in 99% of the cases. Oh, they pretend to be confused

but that's bullshit. No matter how many times it's explained, they come up with same ugly shit.

[bunnies]

101. yep.

I find those who "need time to adjust" especially interesting. Like they just found out they had cancer or something. So traumatic for them.

[OrwellwasRight]

165. That's ridiculous. It has nothing to do with trauma. It has to do with habits.

I suppose after you learned that "flight attendant" was the new "stewardess" you NEVER ONCE EVER used the term stewardess again. And you have called all female actors actors and have not used the term "actress" since 2000. And you never say global warming. You always say climate change. And you say waitperson every single time you are referring to servers. ANd you've never said fireman in your whole life. And ever since someone said to cough in your elbow, you have never once covered your mouth with your hands when you start coughing. WRONG. These habits are ingrained. They are habituated. And they take time to unlearn like every single other habit you have in your life. Mocking people who have called a certain person a "he" for a year because they have not yet been able to change their patterns of thought about that person is just looking to be morally superior. Well, congratulations, I guess you are. And the rest of us are still practicing.

[bunnies]

168. Actually...

Im sure I said fireman when I was a child. But beyond that, no, Ive not done any of those things. And I was brought up coughing my elbow so... no, I dont ever use my hands. Ever.

Its amazing that some people here have such a hard time adjusting to such a simple thing. Im not the only one whose been able to accomplish such an amazing display of super powers.

[OrwellwasRight]

171. Enjoy your moral superiority.

It suits you. The rest of us mere morals can only aspire to be perfect and never make mistakes.

[bunnies]

175. Yeah. I never make mistakes. Thats what I said.

Geezus.

[OrwellwasRight]

199. Well, you've never said, waitress, actress, or coughed in your hands.

You're clearly incapable of making mistakes. I'm sure I aspire to be you. Maybe you should start smoking too. You could obviously quit immediately with no backsliding, ever.

[bunnies]

201. I smoked for over 20 years.

It took many attempts for me to quit. It wasnt easy at all for me, in all honesty. My significant other, otoh, quit cold turkey and had no issues. People are different. Easy for him, hard as hell for me. Doesnt make him any more superior to me than my actions make me superior to you. Despite what you might think, thats not how I feel.

[OrwellwasRight]

205. Well in post 101 you mocked everyone

who had a hard time changing their ingrained habit of thinking of the former Bradley Manning as man on a dime, so is this a new found tolerance? Most change of thought patterns and speech patterns take a while, just as they took a while to develop. That's why we don't do one math problem in school or read one book or write one essay. We do it over and over and over. It is called learning. Yet you impugn the motives of everyone who doesn't change immediately and perfectly like you do. That doesn't seem very understanding to me.

[bunnies]

206. It wasnt meant to come off that way.

There are some people who mean no harm by it. I absolutely accept that. But there are *some* who seem to be using it as an excuse to take swipes at Manning. Those are the people I meant. If my post was overly vague, I apologize. Its been a rough couple of days on DU and Ill admit to a propensity for lashing out when defending something important to me. I take full ownership of my personal douchebaggery.

[OrwellwasRight]

297. Truce then.

And likewise, I am not defending people who are refusing to adapt and who mean harm. Glad we were able to see each other's point.

[bunnies]

300. Me too.

I love it when that happens.

[ZombieHorde]

83. Some of it may be habit.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I also think going back and editing a post if an honest mistake is made is the right thing to do.

[demwing]

84. Do you want explanations...

Or excuses to fight?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

96. i want people to acknowledge her gender correctly

this is not about me or my great desire to fight. i barely post OP's in GD.

[demwing]

121. well, it took Chelsea about 25 years

To get her own pronouns correct.

Give DUers some time before you start chastising, what do you say?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

139. we dont have to struggle with this, she did. its not even close to the same thing

its one thing if its accidentally, but a large number of people are not being accidental.

if you're not seeing it, maybe its because you dont want to

[demwing]

149. So I was right after all

You don't want understanding, you want conflict.

Take your self righteous, judgemental attitude down to the fuckin pawn shop. You might get enough for it to buy yourself some humility.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. how are people who are deliberately using incorrect pronouns an issue of my lacking humility?

[demwing]

160. Who appointed you their judge?

Or mine?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

162. am i judging them to some sort of jail time? you're being absurd

on the one hand you have no problem accusing me of arrogance and on the other you claim that my pointing out that people are being transphobic is making me judgmental.

[demwing]

174. Arrogance was your word, not mine

But your willingness to judge people as transphobic based solely on their use of a pronoun, without any understanding what's in their heads or hearts, and despite their efforts to explain themselves, certainly earns you the title.

You even insinuated that I might be transphobic, despite the fact that I have never once misused the pronoun, or referred to Manning in any way that could cause her to feel uncomfortable, were she in the room or reading the thread. What's your excuse for that behavior? Actually, save your excuses. Your high and mighty act is just that, an act. I no longer care for your thoughts, or your attitude.

No one needs you to defend Chelsea Manning. Not me, not DU, and not even Ms. Manning herself.

[Isoldeblue]

85. Since when is it ok to call

people names, like asshole, for not calling Bradley, Chelsea, or he a she..????
Or assuming maliciousness on the part of those who haven't caught up on being politically correct, maybe?

Does anyone see something wrong with that?

It makes those no better than the ones that are pointing fingers at, for doing the exact same thing.

[zeemike]

117. You seem new here.

But we have seen this before.
Some here try to gin up a new controversy so they can call others here some kind of phobia or the other and insist that Skinner ban them from posting.
It is just witch hunt 3.0....in this case it is seek out transgenderphobes and destroy....and the proof that you are one is if you call Bradly Manning a he and not Chelsey...like we are told he wants to be called. (I myself have not heard him say a word because he is confined in a military prison and not allowed to speak freely)

[Isoldeblue]

137. I completely respect that Chelsea wants to

be called what she wants. But I have a problem with people who feel they have license to call others names, who don't agree with them.

It's that "two wrongs" thing..........

[bunnies]

148. I guess you missed this:

Bradley Manning says he wants to live as a woman named Chelsea, begin hormone therapy.
Source: Washington Post

FORT MEADE, Md. — Bradley Manning plans to live as a woman named Chelsea and wants to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible, the soldier said Thursday, a day after being sentenced to 35 years in prison for sending classified material to WikiLeaks.

Manning announced the decision in a written statement provided to NBC’s “Today” show, asking supporters to refer to him by his new name and the feminine pronoun. The statement was signed “Chelsea E. Manning.”

“As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible,” the statement read.

Manning’s defense attorney David Coombs told “Today” in an interview that he is hoping officials at the military prison in Fort Leavenworth, Kan., will accommodate Manning’s request for hormone therapy.

Read more: Linkhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/national/bradley-manning-attorney-plans-new-tactics-in-fight-to-free-him-including-presidential-pardon/2013/08/22/a3739566-0b02-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html to source

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014572625

[zeemike]

156. Yes I did but looked it up.

And I would point out that it came to us from a military prison in written form.
And If the prison wanted Manning to send a letter saying he wanted to be called Chelsey he would do it...I can guarantee that...you will sign anything if faced with 35 years of sleeping naked with no blanket.
So I don't trust the source...not in the least sense they have a history of trying to smear people with the gay...
And look how well it worked whether it is true or not?...we have threads telling us that if we call him a he we should be banned from posting...a total distraction from the real story of what he released and how he was made an example of to chill others from telling.

Sorry if you don't like that opinion but it is mine.

[bunnies]

159. Was she forced into this too?

[zeemike]

179. How would I know that?

How would you know about it?...and what does that matter?
I have known lots of men that dress up as women and do not want to be called a she.

This is more big stink about nothing IMO...and is possibly a manipulation to distract us and to turn off the average voter and turn him away from Manning the whistle blower to Manning the transvestite...who they will not be able to relate to.

[bunnies]

182. transvesite?

Clearly you dont understand the issue. Ill trust the information presented by the lawyers at the trial on behalf of Manning. Therefore I flatly reject your assertion that the Army forced her to do anything. Also, its insulting to refer to a transgender person as a transvestite. But Im sure you knew that.

[zeemike]

195. Sorry but I did not know it was now a forbidden word.

That happens a lot around here...we need a book of forbidden words and thoughts so we know.

[tallahasseedem]

315. +1

[Iggo]

223. Since all day every day.

Of course, here at DU you takes your chances. But calling an asshole an asshole is always okay, 24 hours a day.

[Isoldeblue]

225. What's your point? That we all can do away with all

civil discourse? That if I want to call you an M F'in M0+her Fu<ker, <0<k$u<ker, I can? Not that I would, but now you've made me curious as to the guidelines of using names here @DU?

[Iggo]

226. Read what I posted again.

I said here at DU, you takes your chances.

[Isoldeblue]

228. I did. Chances for what? Calling people names?

Say it straight and stop the cryptic shit.

[Iggo]

230. With a jury. You take your chances with a jury.

Not trying to be cryptic at all. Figured you'd been around long enough to pick up on the local parlance. I keep forgetting this is a big website.

[Isoldeblue]

231. Thanks for explaining

I'm an old lady who can be really slow on the uptake, sometimes. Posting on-line websites like this is a brand new experience for me. So I miss the local parlance....


As for the happenstance style of juries here, I definitely got the crap-shoot part of it. I've had 2 posts hidden @ w/ 3-3 vote. I've alerted 2 posts that stood .... Oy vey..........

[Ms. Toad]

269. 3-3 doesn't hide posts - those posts stay. n/t

[Isoldeblue]

318. You're right...

I got them switched in my mind. I went and checked my mail after I read your post and it was my alerts that were 3/3. The 2 on me were 4/2 to hide.
But I didn't know that a tie let's it stay. Thanks! I have much to learn about DU

[Jamastiene]

311. Speaking of cryptic...

is this: "M F'in M0+her Fu<ker, <0<k$u<ker" from your post above? You know we can use simple cuss words here, right?

[Isoldeblue]

317. Couldn't have been all that cryptic....

You figured they were curse words....

Well, I thought we could too. Til I used a couple choice ones for the tundratart Palin (who still can make me pretty angry), and it got alerted on and hidden!

Besides, at my age it's not as easy to casually swear in public.
I can still actually remember the very first time I dropped the F-bomb out loud at age 20, and then got the shivers for having done so. Then I looked around to see if anyone had heard me..... I was in the stockroom at work. Alone.
Pretty wild, huh?

[AverageJoe90]

87. Manning technically *is* male, TBH.....

But I wouldn't make a big deal out of calling Manning a "she", I suppose. Give us a while to adjust, is all we ask.

[whopis01]

239. If by "technically" you mean

by a particular definition which we now understand is incomplete and archaic, the yes your are "technically" correct.

[MynameisBlarney]

92. This is a very recent development

Can't expect people to get it perfect right away.

Kinda like how people will keep referring to the previous year for weeks after New Years Day.

[JDPriestly]

93. Sorry. i don't remember names either.

It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is she or she is he.

We are all a little of each, I suppose.

Actually, when I think about it, seems proper to me to speak about Bradley Manning as "he," and Chelsea Manning as "she."

At what moment does a transgender person get to change his/her legal records to reflect a new sexual identity? Does anyone know this? I know a couple of people (actually four that I am aware of) who have gone through this change but I don't know at what point they are legally counted as members of their acquired sexual identity. Interesting.

[Ms. Toad]

270. It varies from state to state.

in Ohio, for example, even if you have had surgery you cannot ever be issued a new birth certificate - which is the the starting point for other documentation.

In Illinois, where my dear friend lives, she was issued all new documents (passport, social security card, passport, driver's license) shortly after her name change. She is on hormone therapy, but still has all of her factory issued body parts.

In many areas, living as a woman (if you are MTF) for a period of time is required before surgery (if you are having surgery).

There is no single standard. Even when you are asking a purely legal question.

[JDPriestly]

321. Thanks for the great reply.

[NYC_SKP]

116. Now see what you've done?

You've gone and nuked yourself.

[Sheldon Cooper]

98. For some, it's transphobia. For others, it's sheer spite.

They despise her for what she did, so therefore they refuse to grant her anything.

(I don't have time to read the whole thread, sorry if someone else has mentioned this.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. actually no one has mentioned spite and i think you might be right

that in addition to being ignorant about trans issues, being maliciously transphobic , there is also this element of spite.

[pnwmom]

102. Not everyone keeps up with DU on a daily basis. It would have been easy

to miss this story.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. i have said this a few times during this thread but the people who are reffering to her

as male, are doing it deliberately. as in not that they missed the story (i know this cos the people i am referring to her are discussing the threads about her transition)

[pnwmom]

110. Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying. n/t

[cbdo2007]

105. Perhaps "he/she" would be more appropriate?

He was a he, now she is a she. Many events where he/she is being discussed occurred in the past and many are in the present. Doesn't matter what he/she wants. Nobody can't change the facts and timeline of his/her life.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

108. no it would not. nt

[Tien1985]

202. Hi, it sounds

Like you are just asking in earnest, so I wanted to present the other side in earnest.

No "he/she" is not a good way to refer to Manning, because it would be offensive. Once someone has made their pronoun preference clear it is considered very offense to refuse to use that pronoun. It is generally given some leeway if, for instance you've know someone for a long time, and they just tell you, obviously that's just a mistake. It's the difference between saying "he, uh, I meant she" and "He is a he technically, and I'll say what I want, herp derp". One is a mistake and one is just determined ignorance.

Because pronoun usage can be such a painful topic in the lives of trans* people, refusing to use the right pronoun in this case is offensive and hurtful. It is the equivalent to using a derogatory slur to discuss a political figure. It will hurt people who have been disenfranchised by such a slur, even though you aren't talking about they themselves.

[Iggo]

244. Call a trans person a he/she? Perhaps not.

And I'm going to go ahead and believe that you don't really think that's okay, because I've seen you around here before and I know for a fact you aren't stupid.

[NaturalHigh]

109. Bradley Manning is a male...

at least until he gets a sex-change operation (which isn't going to happen for about 35 years). Sorry, but I'm not going to refer to a man as "her" or "she."

[NYC_SKP]

111. Good luck with that.

What you do in your real life is up to you.

But on THIS board you'll need to respect community standards which hold that any PERSON who identifies as a woman or a man be respected and referred to using pronouns reflective of that gender identification.

Refusal to do so will be met with serious consequences, as they should be.

Or would you prefer to be a stubborn asshole?

[bunnies]

115. What the hell is your problem?

What difference does it make to you? Sounds like your threatened a little bit. Why is that?

Do you inspect the genitals of everyone you meet to avoid being tricked into using the "wrong" pronoun?

[maddezmom]

119. Maybe you should keep your comments to yourself then because you are being

Disrespectful not only to Manning but others within the community.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=3077

[La Lioness Priyanka]

120. do you normally ask to see people's dicks or vaginas to decide what gender to refer to them as?

[Iggo]

245. ^^^ This.

[Gormy Cuss]

161. So if a man loses his penis in an accident, does he become a woman?

Is that all there is to male identity?

[Starry Messenger]

215. So we won't miss you when your failure to follow rules about bigotry here gets you gone.

[LostOne4Ever]

268. I guess asking for a little

Human decency and respect is too much for you?

An act that requires just a simple change of pronouns and you can't even do that.

Fine, since you won't give her that respect I shall assume that you don't want the same respect yourself and shall call you "thing" and "it" from now on.

Not fun is it?

[Jamastiene]

312. Exactly.

Just simple common courtesy goes a long way. There is a huge difference between someone making an honest mistake and someone being belligerent about it. Some of these posters are just being openly belligerent about it.

[nomorenomore08]

283. Why are some of you so damn stubborn about this? Why do you *care* so much?

Like you know better than the person who's actually transitioning (or attempting to).

[Bully Taw]

112. i'm getting a Popsicle headache... n/t

[NYC_SKP]

113. And "poof", you're gone.

Was it worth it?

[demwing]

178. I think your poofer is poofed / nt

[Hayabusa]

122. Couple of thoughts

A: They may not be used to the change yet. I know I've slipped up when talking about it a couple of times, saying "he" instead of "she"
B: Some may not believe in changing the personal pronoun until either the hormonal treatments or surgery is started. Don't necessarily agree with this, but I can see it as valid, especially considering the next one.
C: The just don't want to. By far the worst.

[donco]

124. How about a neutral word such as IT?

word such as IT?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

126. it is not neutral. i think you know that. i think everyone knows that, even small children. nt

[gollygee]

146. Chelsea Manning is not gender neutral

Nor is she an object. She's a woman. We didn't know, so we couldn't refer to her appropriately, but now we do know and now we can refer to her appropriately.

[bunnies]

151. No.

Bigots call transgender people "it" as a means to dehumanize and ridicule them. You might as well use the word "shim" for that matter. Dont do it.

[Posteritatis]

183. Yeah, fuck that and anyone who advocates for it. (nt)

[Iggo]

234. You gotta be kidding me!

[Union Scribe]

238. I can't believe I've now seen two long-time DUers say that.

[donco]

246. Just keeping

with the spirit of this troll thread.

[Iggo]

256. Illuminating.

[nomorenomore08]

284. Yeah, it's all just a big fucking laugh for some folks.

Hope nobody ever decides you're a "freak" of some kind. Then you might know how it feels.

[Jamastiene]

313. Would you like to be referred to as "it?"

If that is the pronoun you think is appropriate, I will be happy to make note of it and refer to you as "it" from now on.

[Rex]

132. Nonsense, once again it is a matter of respecting her wishes.

Is that really too hard to do for some? Just make the one simple correction when you are typing...or is it impossible to show a sliver of empathy toward a fellow human being?

[Rex]

136. So that would be a NO, thanks.

So you are saying NO, you cannot respect the wishes of someone simply because they asked you to. NP. I knew you would not give me a yes or no answer.

[Rex]

141. So that would be a NO, again thanks!

And THANK YOU for starting a thread on this! It will end very badly for you and hopefully with a PPR.

[BlueJazz]

131. I might ? be guilty of still referring to her as him but I swear, it's done out of ....

"not paying attention" ....no disrespect untended.

[earthside]

134. All this reminds me on "The Jerk".

Whatever.

[George II]

140. Perhaps because Manning is a male?

[FreeState]

154. Manning is female

I hope you realize you are repeating the transphobic garbage that gender is determined by what your body looks like.

For a transgender person their gender does not match their body, not the other way around. Insisting someone is male because they were born that way denies the humanity and identity of the individual.

[bunnies]

157. do you need to see whats between this womans legs to call her female?

[bravenak]

152. People can be so dumb.

That's why.

[nomorenomore08]

286. And quite proud of it too, apparently...

[crim son]

153. Habit.

Manning has been front and center in the news for a long time now. I only learned of her situation about a week ago and have been guilty of forgetting, as the trial has has had much importance for me and Manning's gender identity holds less interest. I imagine there are others like me, not ignorant but not paying close attention either.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

155. ok. this i buy. that people forget she transitioned. however i am specifically talking about people

referring to her in threads about her TRANSITION with male pronouns

i get that when discussing greenwald or assange one can get in the habit of calling her bradley manning accidentally. totally get that and dont think its transphobic. however i am referring to people who seem to deliberately be referring to her in male terms while discussing her transition.

[crim son]

233. Okay, and I didn't realize that.

In those cases I believe there must be deliberate resistance to freaking dealing with reality, or true ignorance. I will fault ignorance if it persists even after it's been called out and the poor schmuck has been informed; otherwise, no.

[perdita9]

158. Manning has a Y Chromosome

Biologically, that makes him a male.

If you want to ask your friends to refer to you as 'she', whatever, but since Manning hasn't officially made the switch yet, I don't think he's free to order us around.

[Rex]

163. But it is not an order, just asking to respect her wishes

and I don't think that is too hard for empathic people to do.

[FreeState]

164. But you can order around someone you don't even know

logic fail 101.

Manning is female and has identified as such for a while. It does not matter what you think. Its rude and transphobic for you to insist your view is superior than the minorities.

[Posteritatis]

185. By your logic nobody has ever "officially made the switch." That's ... convenient for you. (nt)

[whopis01]

240. Your post seems self contradictory

You said that "since Manning hasn't officially made the switch yet, I don't think he's free to order is around". This seems to imply that you would use the feminine pronouns once surgery occurred.

However, you already made it clear in the title that you define male/female as the presence or lack of a Y chromosome. Something that no surgery is going to change.

It seems that you are determined to refer to Manning as a male no matter what.

[LostOne4Ever]

271. No it does not

Biologically sex is not a well defined term.

It breaks down into two criteria. Genotype (genetic make up) and phenotype (how the genes experess themselves). It is entirely possible to have a male genotype and a female phenotype (swyer's syndrome or CAIS) or vice versa (De la Chapelle syndrome). Further, any number of genetic and hormonal issues can cause a conflicting genotype and phenotype or result in a case where the phenotype or genotype is uncertain.

Claiming biology as a reason to not call him by his preferred gender only shows ones ignorance of basic genetics.

And further no one is ordering you around. It isjust asking for some human decency and respect on a site where such courtesy is expected.

[defacto7]

187. You have a very good point...

with some conditions though...

If the media, professional or semi-professional are still using the wrong pronoun, they are wrong to do so and we should have absolutely no patience for it.

If after a month the average commenter is still using the wrong pronoun, then you have your assholes in a can.

If there are DUers still using the wrong pronoun after reading this OP, I don't think they have any excuse and they probably are what you think they are.

There is a point of tolerance when based on a time-line that can assure your conclusion. I will say though, if you hadn't started this thread there would probably be more "mistakes".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

189. i think what has me most bothered, is that the people who are referring to her as him

are doing it in threads about her being transgendered

it's not like they dont know or forgot, which are both excusable. i am talking about people doing it deliberately.

[madinmaryland]

188. Huh? I thought Bradley Manning was a man? Did something change that I missed??

I had never even heard that he was thinking of himself as a woman.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

190. yes, it did. which if you did not know honestly i was not chastising you.

the story broke about her transitioning yesterday

[madinmaryland]

193. I don't know much if anything about his (now her) personal life and would rather keep

it that way. FWIW, I hope Pvt. Manning, as a human being, gets the treatment and help that is needed. I suppose that at this point it will keep him separated from the rest of the prison population which I assume would be very hostile to him.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

197. its not their personal life if they have asked to be called chelsea and to be referred to as female

that's not a personal life thing and not obliging her is rude.

[madinmaryland]

219. Please understand that I do not believe it is a personal lifestyle choice. It is what it is and Pvt

Manning is a transgender person, through no choice of his own.

As has been said elsewhere, the fact the someone comes out in a situation like Pvt. Manning's, should be tell you that it is not a choice, but just the way that person is.

[Ms. Toad]

273. You might want to check your last two posts for gender pronouns... n/t

[madinmaryland]

274. Sigh. nt

[Ms. Toad]

275. Do you have any clue what it feels like

to be a trans* person and read this thread and see people repeatedly reject using the gender pronouns requested. Your posts sound empathetic, but both refer to Manning using male pronouns. It's not that hard to be considerate of the trans* members of this community reading your posts.

[madinmaryland]

277. ...

Are you a trans* person??

edited to not say anything more.

[Ms. Toad]

292. I am not a trans* person,

But my foster child is, my closest friend is, as are at least a dozen others in my circle of close friends.

And I know what both of the trans* individuals I am closest to are going through these past couple of days, how they feel about people deliberately mis-gendering Manning because we've talked specifically about it (in addition to the general conversations we've had during their respective transitions and since then).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

304. +1

[Trajan]

207. I personally haven't mentioned Manning in months

But I do appreciate your thundering indignation ... DU NEEDS mothers who will tell the kids to eat their peas and do their homework ...

We don't have enough mother's in DU telling everybody what to do ....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

208. and i love your passive aggressive way of defending bigots. that's what du needs more of

bigotry + passive aggressive crap

[Trajan]

227. Some people are simply addicted to their own rage

They seek out reasons to .... exercise it ....

That is not my problem ... it's their problem ....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

232. yeah and some people project their problems onto others.

[nomorenomore08]

287. And some people think they know more about gender issues than, y'know, an actual transgender person.

Which I find strange, but maybe not too surprising.

[dionysus]

210. i just heard about it.. maybe some folks didn't know until just now (i hope)

[Raine]

212. Habit? I don't know ... I'm only guessing

that after months and months of saying "him".

[madinmaryland]

217. Considering I spend nearly a third of my time in the Sports Forum, the name Manning brings

to mind, Archie, Payton, and Eli.

I can't imagine why I might refer to a Manning as a male.

[Marrah_G]

221. For some maybe, but this thread shows others are clearly behaving like bigots.

[An_enlightened_soul]

216. Time

Time is the answer you're looking for. There are countless posters who simply, through no fault of their own, lack exposure to LGBT folks -- and as a result of their lack of exposure, they lack the ability quickly change their mindset. But many of these folks are also willing to learn.

I am happy to call Chelsea the name and pronoun of her choice, as it simply does not negative impact me one iota to do so. That said, I do not condemn anyone who calls Chelsea by her legal name, Bradley, or refers to her as he or him. To many of these people, well-intentioned or not, someone with man parts is a he and in this case, his name is Bradley. Right or wrong.

I liked the analogy someone in this thread, or another on the same topic, provided: a man who is injured and loses his genitals does not cease to be a man. He is simply a man without genitals -- what makes him a man is what's inside. Chelsea says that what's inside her is woman, and that the anatomy is simply wrong. Who are we to argue?

[enough]

224. Time, certainly. I have had several friends over the years who have changed their names.

Not always a legal name-change, but they have changed the name they wanted to be called by. It always takes some time for people to get used to a name-change, even if that's all it is, with no gender-change involved. People forget and have to be reminded. I'm sure all this will sort itself out over a certain amount of time.

[burnodo]

218. I'm sure they'll invoke Rick Warren at some point

[Marrah_G]

220. Those of you in this thread that are insisting Chelsea is a man:

You are being very offensive. Not just to progressives in general but to our own trans members of our DU family.

Just fucking STOP IT.

It's not that difficult.

THINK before you post.

[nomorenomore08]

288. +1

...From a heterosexual, cisgender man who simply wants to practice common courtesy and a measure of empathy. Not that my own "identity" really matters here.

[donheld]

237. Priyanka, thanks for taking the lead on this

Some don't care, some do. I definitely do care.

[Synthesize]

241. My theory is that much of it is Manning specific...

... and less about transphobia in general.

IOW, Are you likely to acquiesce to the demands/requests of someone you don't like? It's just another way to stick to someone that many perceive as a scumbag...

[totodeinhere]

243. I get it that some people disagreed with her leaking of documents. And some considered

it an affront to the Obama Administration and as enthusiastic Obama supporters they are critical. While I disagree with that assessment if you just leave it at that then it's not transphobic. But if you are so bent on demonizing Chelsea Manning that you start making transphobic comments about her then you are way out of line IMO.

[Summer Hathaway]

247. The leaking of those documents,

which had been unvetted before being turned over to a third party, is not an affront to the Obama administration. It is an affront to the nation.

Let's not pretend that it's only 'enthusiastic Obama supporters' who were appalled by Manning's actions, and the potential consequences thereof.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

248. and my asking people to respect her gender has nothing to do with whether

i endorse what she did.

[Summer Hathaway]

250. And my response wasn't to what you said

but what the poster I actually responded to said.

[totodeinhere]

254. My point stands. No matter what your reasons for opposing her releasing of the documents, don't

let that morph into transphobia.

[Summer Hathaway]

249. And I have a question for you ...

Who died and left you boss?

"What is with so many of you referring to Manning with male pronouns when you know full well that she requested female pronouns?"

Yes, Manning requested that. That in no way obligates anyone to comply with that request.

"How is that you feel ok to deny someone the right to use the pronoun they feel fits them the best?"

No one is denying Manning the right to use the pronoun she feels fits her best. But that's where her rights end. She has no right to expect or demand that other people use her pronoun of choice - and neither do you.

This whole OP smacks of someone who got up yesterday morning and immediately started combing DU for 'offenders' who are not complying with what YOU think is appropriate behavior, for the sole purpose of pouncing on them with a righteous yell of Ah ha! Caught you!

You have insinuated - actually it's more than mere insinuation - that anyone not using language that YOU approve of is too lazy to do so, or they are homophobes or transphobes, are "mocking" someone's transition, and/or are "defending transphobia".

Posters on this board have been talking about "Bradley" and "he" for a VERY long time - and within less than two days of Manning's request, you are vilifying anyone who hasn't adjusted their language to "Chelsea" and "her", as though every instance of anyone doing so is a deliberate attempt to be insensitive - or worse.

What is especially amusing is to see those who accuse others of being authoritarians insisting that everyone do EXACTLY as they are told by people like yourself - and DO IT RIGHT NOW, because they've been TOLD to do so. There will be no excuses accepted - you WILL lock-step, you WILL comply!

I could understand some here being accused of a lack of sensitivity IF, for example, a letter were being sent directly to Manning. But that's not the case here. We are people posting on a message board that, in all probability, Manning will never read, and never even be aware of.

People are free to use whatever "pronouns" they choose. Whether YOU think their choice of words is acceptable or not is YOUR problem, not theirs. And you can sit on your high horse and call those people whatever you choose to call them. But in your insufferable arrogance, you might remember that your personal opinion of anyone is just that - YOUR opinion - and you are in no position to dictate what other people do, or to accuse those whose opinions differ from yours of being homophobes, transphobes, or anything of the kind.

"Does anyone want to explain this to me?"

Several people have - e.g. sheer habit, not having yet adjusted to the new normal, etc. And in every case, you have belittled their attempts to explain their views.

"Authoritarians" - many of the responses in this thread are the living, breathing proof of being exactly that.

[Gormy Cuss]

252. Pri certainly got under some people's skins.

She made abundantly clear long ago in this thread that her comment wasn't directed at those who didn't hear about the transition or who don't know what pronouns are preferred. It's only directed at the people who think it's acceptable behavior to call someone by the wrong gender pronoun AFTER they have been told that person's gender.

Would you defend the freedom to call a gay man a "f*gg*t?" Would you defend the freedom to call an adult African-American male "boy?" Why is it so important to defend posters who state things like "Manning has a penis, so I'm going to keep calling him a man?" The arrogance of that sort of remark is just stunning and yes, really insensitive.

[Summer Hathaway]

258. "that sort of remark is just stunning and yes, really insensitive."

I agree.

Now please point out where I 'defended' any poster who said that.

"She made abundantly clear long ago in this thread that her comment wasn't directed at those who didn't hear about the transition or who don't know what pronouns are preferred."

She also told people who said they were still not used to the transition from "he" to "she" that there was no acceptable reason for not having adapted their language immediately.

But how benevolent of her to not have "directed" her self-serving comments to those who she has, I take it, granted a grace period before they are expected to comply with her demands.

There are also people who will never adjust their use of pronouns in this case - and to accuse them of being homophobes or transphobes is certainly not going to change their minds. And whether you, or the OP, sanction their reluctance, hesitation, or downright refusal to do so is of no consequence to those who are free to speak as they choose and NOT to be dictated to by anyone whose views disagree with theirs.

"It's only directed at the people who think it's acceptable behavior to call someone by the wrong gender pronoun AFTER they have been told that person's gender."

Yes, indeed - "after they've been TOLD ..."

Well, this may come as a shock to you, but people are free to choose how they perceive someone else's gender despite being TOLD what to do, how to act, and what to post.

I will do as I am TOLD by Manning and by La Lionessa Priyanka.

I will not question their authority.

I will not use pronouns that they do not approve of.

I will march in lock-step behind them without question or hesitation.

I will condemn all who refuse to follow their orders as homophobes or transphobes

I will not think for myself, or form my own opinions.

"Authoritarian" - has it ever been more amply displayed than in this thread?

[Gormy Cuss]

262. You defended that sort of remark by calling Pri an authoritarian.

Pri just pointed out the WTF stupidity of that attitude. IMO people who refuse to adjust their pronouns are flat out transphobes.
People are NOT free to perceive someone's gender after that person has announced it. They are "free" to be arrogant ignoramuses who think they know better than the trans* person.

It's not about doing what Pri told them to do. It's about respecting what Manning stated is her reality.
Willful disregard of that opens oneself to criticism on a board for Democrats from the moderate to left end of the spectrum. It's not a shock to me that some people are so caught up in their perfect world views that they can't see that they are being insensitive if not down right hateful by retaining their own, different gender interpretations for people. I realize that it's hard for some people to separate gender from sex and sexual identity but when someone tells me that the gender pronouns I'm using to describe them are wrong, it's no big deal to adapt.

[Summer Hathaway]

281. The OP wasn't about the stupidity of some attitudes

it was about the OP patrolling the halls of DU H.S., looking for the miscreants who dared use a particular pronoun after her self-proclaimed deadline for complying with her rules.

"It's not a shock to me that some people are so caught up in their perfect world views that they can't see that they are being insensitive if not down right hateful ..."

Are you even tasting the irony there - because I'm savoring it.

"I realize that it's hard for some people to separate gender from sex and sexual identity ...

Yes, it is hard for some people. There are a lot of things in this world that really good, decent people need time to absorb, digest, adapt to. And adopting certain language is part of that process. Some people will come around, some won't; that's up to them. And there is no deadline to be met - especially a deadline imposed by a self-righteous hall monitor who couldn't WAIT to find posters using the "incorrect pronoun" so that she could pounce - with all due in indignation - on those who had the audacity to be late to her mandatory attendance in political correctness class.

" ... but when someone tells me that the gender pronouns I'm using to describe them are wrong, it's no big deal to adapt."

Well, good for you. And there are people who are slower to adapt, and people who choose not to adapt, and calling them homophobes and transphobes doesn't really move the process forward to anyone's benefit, now does it?

[Gormy Cuss]

290. People who choose not to adapt deserve to be called homophobes or transphobes.

There will be no progress if such people aren't called on that behavior. They aren't good, decent people. They're self-centered, conservative, sticks-in-the-mud.

eta: I'm sorry but this statement:

it was about the OP patrolling the halls of DU H.S., looking for the miscreants who dared use a particular pronoun after her self-proclaimed deadline for complying with her rules.

is ridiculous given that there were at least a dozen active threads in GD on this topic when the OP was posted. One would have to be ignoring all the threads to be unaware of the DUers who were proudly declaring that they weren't using female pronouns for Manning.

[Summer Hathaway]

309. If you honestly believe

that the rights of the transgendered will be protected and advanced by "calling on the behavior" of people who refer to Manning as a 'he' rather than a 'she' on a message board, go to it.

The problem with the OP is that she belittled those who said they're still not used to thinking of Manning as a she, given that she has been discussed for a VERY long time here as a 'he'.

The correct response to that would have been, "Yeah, I know it's going to take some time to get used to that change for a lot of people"

Instead, the OP declared anyone who hadn't 'adapted' immediately as transphobes, or accused them of defending transphobia.

Just another example of trivializing an important issue by turning it into a witch hunt for those who don't follow the dictates of the self-declared rule-makers/enforcers.

But then, DU has become the go-to site for trivializing everything that really matters.

[Gormy Cuss]

314. I honestly believe we are enabling suppressing rights for the transgendered

if we ignore the behavior of those who think they know better than Manning what gender pronouns are appropriate. This is supposed to be a left-leaning board. If posters HERE won't show a little respect for the trans* posters and for those who have trans* family and friends, this board has lost its way.

Those who have it explained to them and still insist on calling Manning a male are the ones trivializing the issue, not those who have patiently or bluntly pointed out why using the person's preferred gender pronouns matters.

[Summer Hathaway]

316. The issue I have with the OP

has nothing to do with those who think they know better than Manning what gender pronouns are appropriate.

My issue has been the fact that the OP took it upon herself to dictate that there was a DU deadline for using the pronoun 'he' instead of 'she' - and couldn't wait to unleash her indignation on those who were still doing so despite their very valid explanations for doing so.

The very first reply to this thread was "Uh, she was a he 36 hours ago. Give me a day or two to adapt." And the OP's response: "It takes you so much time to type up she more than he?" And it went from there, with people saying they hadn't adapted yet being labelled as transphobes.

Had Manning's story only come into the public view a few weeks ago, or even a few months ago, a change in thinking of 'him' as 'her' would not have been that difficult a transition for most people here.

However, that is not the case. Manning was arrested in Iraq in May 2010, and has been a topic of conversation on DU - often on a daily basis - for over three years. To suggest that posters who have discussed 'Bradley/he' over that lengthy period of time are to be castigated for not having met the OP's self-declared deadline for no longer doing so is preposterous on its face.

THAT type of behavior is what trivializes an important issue - declaring that a poster's all-too-understandable usage of the same terms they have used for three-plus years is to be belittled, bemoaned, and "called out" as being insensitive, lazy, lacking in empathy, or "defending transphobia" within less than 48 hours of Manning's request to be identified as female.

Per the OP: "when i learnt her preferred pronoun i adapted. you shouldn't mock someone's transition, its no joke. In other words, anyone still using the now un-preferred pronoun within less than two days of the 'preferred pronoun' being requested by Manning is 'mocking someone's transition'.

My issue in THIS thread isn't with those who have steadfastly refused to adapt. Had the OP focused on that attitude, this would be another discussion entirely.

But the OP's replies to those who have explained that they are still making the transition from thinking of Manning as a male - which Manning has presented as for the three-plus years of being discussed here - to being female has been that their empathy is suspect in that they haven't complied with HER self-declared deadline for making that transition.

As I stated earlier, there are many good, decent people who need time to digest information and adapt. The OP has given no quarter to such people - having been too busy looking at her Hall Monitor watch and declaring that time has run out for everyone to adapt, and anyone caught using the 'he' pronoun is now to be accused of transphobia.

Paring down anyone's true feelings on a topic to meeting an arbitrary deadline for using certain pronouns doesn't serve anyone's purpose - not the trans-gendered, not those who are willing to fight to have the rights of the trans-gendered recognized, not those who will
cast their votes for representatives who recognize those rights.

The only purpose this OP has served is to declare herself the final arbiter of WHEN the use of 'she' rather than 'he' is acceptable, and to announce the cut-off point for doing so as final and not to be argued with under any circumstances.

And those who have decided to unquestionably accept the OP's 'deadline', and join in the demeaning of others who have fallen short of following the OP's demand for meeting that deadline, are a perfect example of the term "sheeple".

[CreekDog]

320. *I* accidentally used the pronoun he/him to refer to Manning and guess what...

the thing you worried about, DID NOT HAPPEN TO ME.

because I was standing up for Manning and when I realized what I'd done, later, I went back and corrected it.

nobody freaked out on me, nobody attacked me for this.

yes, i made that mistake and the great fear you expressed simply did not happen.

because the people being called out for being transphobes aren't people who accidentally or mistakenly used the term once and upon realization corrected themselves, but people who will still use the male terms/names for Manning and by golly anyone who expects them to change can go pound sand.

THOSE are the people who are getting criticized. Me and people who defend these rights, but inadvertently use the wrong term, barely a peep about us.

[Summer Hathaway]

322. So because you didn't get attacked

no one in this thread did - and if they did, they deserved it (all evidence to the contrary).

I have no "fear" about this - great or small - nor did I express any.

The complete trivialization of this issue is appalling. Paring things down to who uses the 'correct' pronoun in a post on a message board, and then judging people by it, is as narrow-minded as the thinking it pretends to condemn.

But like it or not, this is what DU has become - a vast wasteland of unending debates about using the appropriate glass to throw a splash of water on a raging fire.

[CreekDog]

327. I may owe you an apologist, can you give me an example of someone accidentally mixing the pronouns

then apologizing and getting it right subsequently and getting flamed like crazy here?

if you can give me an example, maybe I owe you an apologist.

[Summer Hathaway]

328. Oh ffs

I said nothing about people changing a pronoun and subsequently getting flamed.

I have been talking about people who pointed out to the OP that it had been a matter of hours since Manning's request was made public, and it would take time to adapt to using 'she' rather than 'he' - and the nasty replies.

[Gormy Cuss]

323. Huh?

Where am I making excuses for not knowing?

[CreekDog]

324. oh that was for "Summer", crap!

sorry! :hides:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

257. LOL. this whole rant is just laughable. nt

[Union Scribe]

264. This isn't about people needing time to change "habits"

It's about the intentionally nasty posters. There are posters calling Manning "it" and "he/she" in this thread and elsewhere. Is that acceptable to you? There are others saying they refuse to accept another person's gender identity because of the presence or absence of sex organs, after it has been repeatedly explained that gender isn't just about that. In short, the OP is not talking about innocent slips but about malicious and antagonizing comments.

[Summer Hathaway]

272. What it's really about

is the OP telling people how to think, what to do, and what language to use that she finds acceptable.

If people refuse to accept another person's gender identity, for whatever reason, it is their right to do so - even after it's been "repeatedly explained" to them that they are somehow obliged to see things the OP's way.

The reference to "nasty posters" is rather ridiculous here, after the OP has berated and belittled anyone who has offered a reason for not having made the 'pronoun transition' from he to she, and has labeled anyone who is slow to do so as defending transphobia, or having been too lazy to do as they've been told RIGHT FUCKIN' NOW.

"In short, the OP is not talking about innocent slips but about malicious and antagonizing comments."

Really? Someone pointing out that it's only been a few hours, and they haven't adjusted to the change in language from "he" to "she" is being intentionally nasty and malicious? And who put the OP in charge of deciding what constitutes an "innocent slip" and what doesn't?

The very fact that the OP was goin' round takin' names at the first opportunity speaks for itself.

But, hey, for the authoritarians who love being told not only WHAT to do, but WHEN to do it, it's all good.

Please proceed to lock-step behind your leader. You wouldn't want to get caught saying something she might not consider to be an "innocent slip".

[NealK]

278. "Please proceed to lock-step behind your leader."

[Union Scribe]

298. I know, right? nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

299. are you as surprised as i am to be called your leader?

[CreekDog]

325. well what's your excuse for not knowing? were you out of the country or something?

oh come on, barely.

and it's not like it didn't stop you from fluffing the surveillance program which we have to live under --do you?

[The American Sickle]

251. I don't know Manning personally

Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

And I don't think anyone here does either. I do not know if Manning really means it or is this a Klinger effect. All we know is what we know through the media.

[The Link]

255. Excellent thread...for what it says and what it has exposed.

[LuvLoogie]

267. Well....

[nomorenomore08]

289. HAHAHA that's so clever and witty!

I mean, I love the Scorps, but this is neither the time nor the place...

[LuvLoogie]

295. Holly came from Miami FLA...

You know the rest...

[nomorenomore08]

305. You just keep on digging that hole. Go ahead.

[Mr.Bill]

276. There's a lot of people who need to look up the definition of the word Phobia.

I don't think anyone here fears transgender people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

301. both transphobia and homophobia are misnomers when taken literally

but i think you and everyone else knows that

[Mr.Bill]

306. That doesn't make it right.

It diminishes your message.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

310. no, it really doesn't. words often end up having slight differences from their root words

ask any linguist

[ConcernedCanuk]

279. Combination of ignorance and homophobia methinks

.
.
.

By "ignorance" - I don't mean the common use of the word as being rude,

but the real meaning of ignorance as the lack of knowledge.

Homophobia:

"Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
__________________________________________________________________________________________

And as many of us already know - to some - way too many,

something that goes against their beliefs or habits is automatically "wrong".

Look at all the wars going on these days!

What are they all about mostly?

Forcing their beliefs on others.

Ain't gonna work.

Never has,

never will.

CC

ps: - if we ever adopt "live and let live" universally, Peace will be on Earth

That would be nice.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

280. yikes! the pronoun police

[Ms. Toad]

294. Please don't trivialize something

which is very important to the emotional well being of trans* individuals.

[DerekG]

291. A dictatorship encroaches, and THIS is the controversy?

n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

302. hyperbole vs actual problems

transpeople face a lot of real issues, unlike anything resembling a dictatorship in the US

[Zorra]

296. Mostly it's because conservatives are intolerant bigots and/or find it difficult to accept change.

There are a some who do/did so out of ignorance, but mostly it's conservatives that have a problem with this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

303. i dont think thats accurate. i think transphobia & transmisogyny

are abundant in many so called liberals

this thread proves me right, unfortunately

[Zorra]

307. I was using the dictionary definition ~

con·serv·a·tive
kənˈsərvətiv
adjective
adjective: conservative

1.
holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.

synonyms: traditionalist, traditional, conventional, orthodox, old-fashioned, dyed-in-the-wool, hidebound, unadventurous, set in one's ways; More
moderate, middle-of-the-road, buttoned-down;
stick-in-the-mud

noun
noun: conservative; plural noun: conservatives

1.
a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in relation to politics.