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kpete

(71,991 posts)
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:41 PM Aug 2013

---so what you are saying, is we would be BETTER OFF --- NOT KNOWING THESE THINGS?:

reposting hat tip: JDPriestly

Below is a list of 10 revelations disclosed by Manning’s leaked documents that offer insight into the breadth and scope of what he revealed, help explain his motivation for leaking, and provide context for the ongoing trial. The list, in no particular order, is far from comprehensive but encompasses some of the most significant information brought to light by the leaked documents.

During the Iraq War, U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape, and murder by Iraqi police and soldiers, according to thousands of field reports.

There were 109,032 “violent deaths” recorded in Iraq between 2004 and 2009, including 66,081 civilians. Leaked records from the Afghan War separately revealed coalition troops’ alleged role in killing at least 195 civilians in unreported incidents, one reportedly involving U.S. service members machine-gunning a bus, wounding or killing 15 passengers.

The U.S. Embassy in Paris advised Washington to start a military-style trade war against any European Union country that opposed genetically modified crops, with U.S. diplomats effectively working directly for GM companies such as Monsanto.

British and American officials colluded in a plan to mislead the British Parliament over a proposed ban on cluster bombs.

In Baghdad in 2007, a U.S. Army helicopter gunned down a group of civilians, including two Reuters news staff.


U.S. special operations forces were conducting offensive operations inside Pakistan despite sustained public denials and statements to the contrary by U.S. officials.

A leaked diplomatic cable provided evidence that during an incident in 2006, U.S. troops in Iraq executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence. The disclosure of this cable was later a significant factor in the Iraqi government’s refusal to grant U.S. troops immunity from prosecution beyond 2011, which led to U.S. troops withdrawing from the country.

A NATO coalition in Afghanistan was using an undisclosed “black” unit of special operations forces to hunt down targets for death or detention without trial. The unit was revealed to have had a kill-or-capture list featuring details of more than 2,000 senior figures from the Taliban and al-Qaida, but it had in some cases mistakenly killed men, women, children, and Afghan police officers.

The U.S. threatened the Italian government in an attempt to influence a court case involving the indictment of CIA agents over the kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric. Separately, U.S. officials were revealed to have pressured Spanish prosecutors to dissuade them from investigating U.S. torture allegations, secret “extraordinary rendition” flights, and the killing of a Spanish journalist by U.S. troops in Iraq.

In apparent violation of a 1946 U.N. convention, Washington initiated a spying campaign in 2009 that targeted the leadership of the U.N. by seeking to gather top officials’ private encryption keys, credit card details, and biometric data.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/04/bradley_manning_trial_10_revelations_from_wikileaks_documents_on_iraq_afghanistan.html


adding these as well (for those who don't think the above is enough):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3518698

http://www.thenation.com/blog/175879/too-often-forgotten-amazingly-long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning#axzz2coqF27hD
60 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
---so what you are saying, is we would be BETTER OFF --- NOT KNOWING THESE THINGS?: (Original Post) kpete Aug 2013 OP
please please please don't take my blinders away.... mike_c Aug 2013 #1
Yes. I don't need to know these things. progressoid Aug 2013 #2
progressoid kpete Aug 2013 #3
Fuck yeah! DeSwiss Aug 2013 #15
Books! progressoid Aug 2013 #22
Yes. Aerows Aug 2013 #4
Nice phrasing LearningCurve Aug 2013 #20
It's the classic authoritarian argument. Let your leaders take care of you. rhett o rick Aug 2013 #31
Except he would say Aerows Aug 2013 #33
It's like Ellsberg revealed in his memoirs, Fuddnik Aug 2013 #50
They're protecting us from our own traitorous and untrustworthy minds. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #5
If those things were all Manning leaked, your point would be stronger (nt) Recursion Aug 2013 #6
Oh? Aerows Aug 2013 #7
He asserts great damage was done by the large release Hydra Aug 2013 #10
Please, chervilant Aug 2013 #23
Heh Aerows Aug 2013 #24
How do you know what was leaked? Read about it somewheres? Care to share your rhett o rick Aug 2013 #32
kick hfojvt Aug 2013 #8
well, yeah--makes it easier not to have cognitive dissonance MisterP Aug 2013 #9
Msg 2 Obama: I'm all grown up now, and don't need "protection" from the truth. ~nt 99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #11
Obama is not the only adult in the room Ocelot Aug 2013 #48
Of course we'd be better off not knowing. Ignorance is BLISS, baby! kath Aug 2013 #12
Thank you Kpete for not letting go of this issue. zeemike Aug 2013 #13
I continue to be shocked kpete Aug 2013 #14
The chopper video did it for me too. I can understand being gungho and wanting to A Simple Game Aug 2013 #25
Shooting up the van with the kids in it, did it for me. RC Aug 2013 #56
Wait. What? tblue Aug 2013 #26
No it was the same one. zeemike Aug 2013 #28
If you watched the long version, near the end, there was a guy just walking down a sidewalk... xocet Aug 2013 #39
Yes I saw that. zeemike Aug 2013 #43
They're scared kpete. DeSwiss Aug 2013 #16
You quote..... AnneD Aug 2013 #52
DURec. bvar22 Aug 2013 #17
K&R! Phlem Aug 2013 #18
Are you implying that all 250,000 cables Manning indiscriminately released contained pnwmom Aug 2013 #19
Well, progressoid Aug 2013 #21
First, get the story right... TiberiusB Aug 2013 #41
I'm so proud of my country Jackpine Radical Aug 2013 #27
K&R n/t jtuck004 Aug 2013 #29
None of this will be stopped until people worry more about what the Country as a whole is doing A Simple Game Aug 2013 #30
K&R blackspade Aug 2013 #34
Depends. Is anyone going to do anything about any of it that might make a merrily Aug 2013 #35
Those Iraq numbers seem suspiciously low. ucrdem Aug 2013 #36
Wikileaks is a Bush operation? Your thinking is most impressive! DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #53
It would be uncivil to amplify the sentiment indicated by the word "impressive", wouldn't it? xocet Aug 2013 #55
Well, I ask, are we better off knowing these things. Since knowing...no more income, no job for kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #37
a year ago here on du SwampG8r Aug 2013 #38
True knowledge is a danger to TPTB; propaganda is much better. blkmusclmachine Aug 2013 #40
And they believe the Enemy is us. tblue Aug 2013 #60
kick burnodo Aug 2013 #42
knowing all that stuff is riuning my enjoyment of american idol. KG Aug 2013 #44
K&R NorthCarolina Aug 2013 #45
K&R n.t myrna minx Aug 2013 #46
Thank you for the original, other OP.. pangaia Aug 2013 #47
Kick and Rec and bookmarked! Fuddnik Aug 2013 #49
If the Bush administration had prosecuted Manning, then no- Obama administration, yes MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #51
I thought most of this had been reported by madinmaryland Aug 2013 #54
If the government thought we needed to know any of that, they would have told us themselves. dawg Aug 2013 #57
It's not about our knowing, but about treestar Aug 2013 #58
. corkhead Aug 2013 #59

progressoid

(49,990 posts)
2. Yes. I don't need to know these things.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:07 PM
Aug 2013

'Murica is the greatest country ever made by God and anybody that does anything to bring her down is doing the work Satan and deserves to burn in everlasting hell because USA USA USA USA USA!

kpete

(71,991 posts)
3. progressoid
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:10 PM
Aug 2013

thank you for posting that
you have pre-posted for the flamers

they can just STAY AWAY

I am so tired of my posts becoming "rants of rudeness"

Today, I made the mistake of checking back on some of my posts...

I kind of KNEW I would be sorry.

peace, kp-

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
4. Yes.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:12 PM
Aug 2013

Government oversight is wrong, especially when it not only exposes Republican politicians, but can expose Democratic politicians right along with them. Even worse, when it could threaten the livelihood of contractors, defense and otherwise, that could harm campaign donations for Democratic politicians and, tangentially, Republican politicians.

Therefore, oversight is bad. Any action that provokes oversight, is bad.

That's the argument I'm seeing.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
31. It's the classic authoritarian argument. Let your leaders take care of you.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:49 PM
Aug 2013

Rahmbo summed it us nicely with, "sit down and shut up."

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
50. It's like Ellsberg revealed in his memoirs,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:29 AM
Aug 2013

After the initial release of the Pentagon Papers, Nixon was giddy. He wanted more information released because it would make Kennedy and Johnson look bad. When it wasn't coming out fast enough, he charged Charles Colson to leak more.

The papers records stopped in 1968. But, when Nixon found out that Ellsberg had the goods on him too, from the time he was working for Kissinger directly, that's when the shit hit the fan.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
10. He asserts great damage was done by the large release
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:31 PM
Aug 2013

I'm still waiting for an explanation since the Gov't admits not one person was killed by Manning's documents.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
23. Please,
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:18 PM
Aug 2013

don't hold your breath. The 'fly-by' sanctimony runs deep in those who are virulently negative about Manning, Snowden, or any other 'leaker' of our precious secrets.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
24. Heh
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:19 PM
Aug 2013

I expected nothing, and got what I expected. Particularly since that poster elaborated on their career aspirations in another post.

 

Ocelot

(227 posts)
48. Obama is not the only adult in the room
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:19 AM
Aug 2013

Despite what he thinks. And in this matter I believe that he is being rather immature and naive. I don't want a POTUS who tells me to "eat my peas", I want one who treats those who voted for him like adults who are capable of making up their own minds.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
13. Thank you Kpete for not letting go of this issue.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:23 PM
Aug 2013

It clearly is the most important issue we have before us today.

But only one thing was enough for me...the video of the chopper mowing down those journalist...that did it for me...that alone was enough to convince me that Manning was a whistle blower, and a decent person to risk it all to expose this evil.

That one clip was so powerful to me because I was in the field of aviation when I was in the service in the 60s and noticed a great change that is shocking to me...and that is in the attitude of the airmen...That pilot and crew WANTED to kill someone that day...were happy when they did.
That reveled a fundamental corruption that is shocking to me...and we would be better off if we know the truth of it.

kpete

(71,991 posts)
14. I continue to be shocked
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:27 PM
Aug 2013

and I am going to be 62 this year
I would love to be posting better news...

thanks for your comments,
and peace (i never give up)
kp

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
25. The chopper video did it for me too. I can understand being gungho and wanting to
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:22 PM
Aug 2013

engage the enemy. But the people on the ground didn't even know the chopper was there, that's not engaging anyone, that's sniping. But the worst part for me was when the clean up crew ran over a body. They chopper people thought it was funny.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
56. Shooting up the van with the kids in it, did it for me.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:44 PM
Aug 2013

It was obvious the people in the van were trying to help a wounded man and get him to some help. There could be no doubt what either side was doing. One was trying to save a man and the other to raise the kill number using defenseless, unarmed civilians.
The entire helicopter crew should have been dishonorably discharged and sentenced to many long years in a federal prison. Appropriate discipline should have been applied to the people supervising them.

tblue

(16,350 posts)
26. Wait. What?
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:23 PM
Aug 2013

I saw the video that everyone saw—of the joyful target-shooting of people on the ground. I didn't know about the one of journalists being shot. Is that the same or a different video? I think I need to throw up. Ugh.

xocet

(3,871 posts)
39. If you watched the long version, near the end, there was a guy just walking down a sidewalk...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:08 AM
Aug 2013

when the helicopter declared the area clear for firing and put a missile into the building right next to the him (within probably 20 feet). There seemed to be no sign of the guy after the explosion.

Even if everything else in the video could somehow be justified - I fail to see how obliterating a guy who just happens to be walking next to a target is not murder, plain and simple.

I never hear of anyone mentioning this guy's likely death as a crime.

Did you ever watch the full version of Collateral Murder?



zeemike

(18,998 posts)
43. Yes I saw that.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:25 AM
Aug 2013

And what it boils down to is that we have trained our military to be murderers and to like it.
It should be a scandal and we should feel some sense of national shame, but many of us don't because we have been conditioned just as the military has been to accept it.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
16. They're scared kpete.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:44 PM
Aug 2013

Scared and living with their eyes wide-shut. So you have to forgive them, for they know not what they do. Seriously.

- Like Winston Smith, the struggle for them is finished. They love Big Brother.

But it'll get better.....


“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.

How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ”
~V for Vendetta


K&R

AnneD

(15,774 posts)
52. You quote.....
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:11 AM
Aug 2013

my favorite movie and my favorite quote from that movie.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
17. DURec.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:47 PM
Aug 2013

For those here having trouble,
the above is what the TRUTH looks like.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
19. Are you implying that all 250,000 cables Manning indiscriminately released contained
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:49 PM
Aug 2013

information that we were better off knowing?

progressoid

(49,990 posts)
21. Well,
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:08 PM
Aug 2013

I just read on another thread that we ('muricans) have to give up a little privacy.

So I guess the government should have to give up a little privacy too.

TiberiusB

(487 posts)
41. First, get the story right...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:29 AM
Aug 2013

This is one of those little exaggerations that refuses to die and clearly only serves to try and make Manning look irresponsible and dangerous.

Manning released the cables to Wikileaks, not the entire world, and that was after going to the NYT and WaPo. Wikileaks then released selected information to certain media outlets a little at a time. It was only after the U.S. government started shutting down Wikileaks funding that anything approaching "indiscriminate" releases of information occurred. Assange feared he wouldn't be able to muster the resources to sort through the remaining documents or get them released. Unless I am mistaken, all of the cables were never released. Far from it, in fact, because, if you recall, Daniel Domscheit Berg bailed on Assange and trashed a ton of documents when he left.

Second, can anyone insisting that somehow Manning is bad, because, you know, reasons, point to any information released that has legitimately harmed U.S. interests? No?

So if we tally up the "good" leaks against the "bad" leaks, we get something like eighty bajillion to none.

And in some minds this means "none" wins.

*Sigh*

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
30. None of this will be stopped until people worry more about what the Country as a whole is doing
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:38 PM
Aug 2013

than they do about whether there is an R or D after a persons name.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
36. Those Iraq numbers seem suspiciously low.
Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:48 PM
Aug 2013
There were 109,032 “violent deaths” recorded in Iraq between 2004 and 2009, including 66,081 civilians.


The actual number of fatalities was most likely ten times that, at least. When this figure came out in 2009 it struck me that Wikileaks was probably a limited hangout run by Bush-friendly operatives and nothing that's happened since has caused me to think otherwise.

xocet

(3,871 posts)
55. It would be uncivil to amplify the sentiment indicated by the word "impressive", wouldn't it?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:43 PM
Aug 2013

Your restraint is admirable.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
37. Well, I ask, are we better off knowing these things. Since knowing...no more income, no job for
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:49 AM
Aug 2013

member of my family, actually making me feel worse. So what is better? Seems to have helped ruin DU as a civil discussion board, especially on the topics of Manning, Snowden, NSA. Can't really do anything about what I know except to blow off steam especially since if the government says things are being corrected....how will we know? Turned a lot of my fellow countrymen and women into exposing their hate for Obama without control...showed a lot folks I thought highly of as closet bigots...so what exactly is the benefit? I am not going to vote Republican and I am not NOT going to vote for the Dem candidates. All of it has damaged the reputation and cooperation the US with its allies and enemies more than US warmongering. I don't feel safer. I don't feel more afraid of my government. Hasn't stopped and won't stop corporate spying on consumers. Yeah...what have we really gained? The big loser in all of this is a President who is trying to deal with many, many complex foreign and domestic issues that actually really affect the lives of people. And actually has made the President seem an enemy of the LBGT community when, in fact, he has been their best ally in office. It is all so sad. And the constant focus on the subject is becoming almost irrational. Of course, this is my opinion. But you seemed to ask for it in your OP.

SwampG8r

(10,287 posts)
38. a year ago here on du
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:47 AM
Aug 2013

speculating not even as far as what we know now to be true would have been labeled "woo" or "conspiracy theory"
the espousal of which were and I think still are bannable offences
and we only know the tiniest little sliver

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
47. Thank you for the original, other OP..
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:08 AM
Aug 2013

And now for this one 'by personal request." This IS so important.
And there is nothing to be done about folks like NM Birder over in the other thread..

Waving for the USA as I wish it COULD be.....

dawg

(10,624 posts)
57. If the government thought we needed to know any of that, they would have told us themselves.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:45 PM
Aug 2013

Why are so many people not willing to trust the leaders *they* worked for and elected?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
58. It's not about our knowing, but about
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:48 PM
Aug 2013

the other countries and their operatives knowing.

Again we have this idea that the US has no right to do what other countries do routinely. If we have no right to classified information other countries do. What do you think will happen?

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