Let's clear something up here. (Chelsea Manning and transgender)

[NuclearDem]

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:46 PM - Edit history (3)

Sex - The biological development of male or female reproductive organs and gametes. Determined by XX or XY chromosomal configuration.

Gender - The behaviors and mental identification based on the masculinity/feminity binary. Social construct, learned behavior, and development of a male or female brain.

Someone of the male sex can identify with the female gender due primarily to the makeup of their brain, and vice versa. You identify people like this by the gender they identify with, not by their assigned sex.

So, yes, Chelsea Manning still has male sex characteristics. However, she identifies with the female gender. She wants to pursue sex reassignment therapy, not gender reassignment therapy. In her case, she has not completed transition yet.

That's literally as clear as I can make it. Gender and sex are not the same thing.

[bunnies]

1. KnR.

[BlueStreak]

3. It is all completely irrelevant. The MAN that released the info to Wiki was BRADLEY Manning

If you want to talk about the security state and Manning's role in it, you refer to him as Bradley Manning.

If you want to talk about sex change treatments and that person's future life as a woman, then refer to her as Chelsea.

It is not complicated.

Muhammad Ali did not fight Sonny Liston in 1964. That was Cassius Clay.

[NuclearDem]

9. No, it was Muhammed Ali.

It retroactively applies.

[BlueStreak]

18. No it doesn't.

And if you want to have a different opinion, that's OK. But I will not be bullied into using the language incorrectly. I will not be accused of phobias because I choose to use the language correctly. If you want to say it was the woman named Chelsea Manning who released those documents, that's absurd, but if it makes you feel better, go for it. I will not do that.

[NuclearDem]

22. Retroactive nomenclature.

Same way you would call Hillary Clinton by that name even when talking about her from before she married Bill.

[okieinpain]

26. but bradley manning will no longer cease to exist. so how will you refer to this incident

in the future. the whistleblower formerly known as bradley manning. lol, isn't life grand.

[East Coast Pirate]

29. Hillary Rodham no longer exists.

(Unless she divorces Bill Clinton and changes her name.)

[BlueStreak]

32. If you are talking about her life before she got married, you refer to Hillary Rodham

It is non-sensical to talk about college girl Hillary Clinton when that wasn't her name.

Really, what is so complicated about this? It has absolutely nothing to do with LGBT issues. It is simply a matter of chronology.

[Tx4obama]

45. Currently, legally speaking, Bradley Manning still exists

His/her statement:

"As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)".

---

Until he/she legally changes his/her name in court then 'Bradley' is still his/her legal name.

And any court documents that are filed, etc (until there is a legal name change) he/she will still have to use Bradley as the name on official documents.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[kestrel91316]

53. Excellent point. Hence my confusion that made so many people angry.

[Marrah_G]

56. She has always been the woman

She just wasn't public about it.

What you are saying is hurtful, especially to our transgender members.

[cali]

4. I agree with the first paragraph but not entirely with the 2nd or 34d

It has not been established that gender identification is rooted solely in social construct and learned behavior or that someone of the male sex who identifies as female does so based only on experiences/events.

just a caveat

[NuclearDem]

6. I understand what you mean, but I tried to keep it as clear as I could.

Adding a nature versus nurture debate wasn't going to keep it that way. However, yes, you're absolutely correct. There are biological factors that play into it as well.

[East Coast Pirate]

34. Biology has FAR MORE TO DO WITH IT

than life experiences.

[NuclearDem]

37. Actually, on second thought, that's more accurate.

Edited the OP to reflect biology over environment.

[East Coast Pirate]

40. Cool.

I knew it was a thoughtful OP so I was just throwing my two cents in.

[East Coast Pirate]

44. P.S.

I like the end result.

Peoples comments have caused me to change my OPs. But they were mean and nasty about it.

[Ms. Toad]

5. Some corrections -

There are multiple versions of chromosomal configurations beyond XX and XY. There are also mismatches between chromosomal configurations and reproductive organs (even without taking trans* individuals - in the most commonly understood sense - into account).

In addition - transitioning (the term preferred over reassignment therapy - regardless of whether you call it sex- or gender-) does not necessarily involve surgery at all. So pre-operative is not an accurate term because it implies that the ultimate endpoint in transition is surgery and, for some people, it isn't.

But thanks for trying to clear up some of the basics.

[NuclearDem]

7. Thanks for the info.

I knew some of my terminology was probably outdated, but I did mean transitioning as including both hormonal and/or surgical.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[NuclearDem]

10. Again, sex isn't gender.

She identifies as female, and not having gone through transition to the female sex doesn't make her less of a woman.

[itsrobert]

13. Correct sex is not gender

He's a male until he transitions to female.

[RebelOne]

24. I agree 100%. n/t

[Lex]

25. Would you identify as female if your sex organs were removed?

[bunnies]

15. Im going to start referring to you as "she" ok?

Sure, it might not be the gender you identify with, but I'll call you whatever I see fit regardless of what you want. Deal?

[itsrobert]

16. fine with me

you have the right to call me anything you feel like. But never call me late for dinner.

[bunnies]

20. hmph.

[East Coast Pirate]

35. No, SHE.

Genitals have nothing to do with it. Anyone who identifies as a female is a she.

God all mighty, is this place morphing into Free Republic?

[East Coast Pirate]

43. Hey, why stop there?

Might as well throw in bestiality while your at it.

[whathehell]

47. Can you say "non sequitur"?

I don't know what the politically correct position on bestiality is, but I'm damn sure

it doesn't have a thing to do with my point.

[East Coast Pirate]

48. You know exactly what I meant.

After all, your friends are laughing along with you.

[whathehell]

49. First of all, that's a lame excuse for failing to communicate properly

and second, even if I did "know what you meant" that doesn't mean it makes any more sense.

If you disagree, I'd suggest you educate me as to what respect for objective reality has to do with beastiality

because I have no idea.

[NuclearDem]

51. ECP is pointing that you used the same slippery slope argument

That conservatives do when they talk about gay marriage, as in people wanting to marry and fuck animals.

No one identifies as a Bengal tiger, because BT isn't a gender.

[whathehell]

55. I know what he's doing but I wasn't using the "slippery slope" argument & it was a bad analogy.

I'm not talking about homosexuality either.

My point is, if one is that much of a relativist, why confine it to gender?

There are people who imagine themselves to be all sorts of things they are not.

We call them ""delusional".

[Marrah_G]

57. Wrong- she is still a she before surgery

She is still a she if she never gets surgery.

[LordGlenconner]

11. Agreed

I dont agree with everything Manning did but this is basic decency IMO.

[War Horse]

23. Basic decency sums it up. I agree n/t

[KittyWampus]

12. Very clearly stated. Highly recommend your thread. Hope it helps clear up misconceptions.

[JackBeck]

14. From GLAAD's media reference guide:

Problematic: "sex change," "pre-operative," "post-operative"

Preferred: "transition"

Referring to a sex change operation, or using terms such as pre- or post-operative, inaccurately suggests that one must have surgery in order to transition. Avoid overemphasizing surgery when discussing transgender people or the process of transition.

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

[NuclearDem]

17. Got it, post edited.

Is the wording better this time? Honest question, I don't want to get it wrong.

[JackBeck]

19. I appreciate that you are taking the time to learn and be sensitive about trans issues.

More people should follow your lead.

"In her case, she has not gone through transition yet."

She has begun her transition process with the announcement of which gender pronouns and name she prefers, so the only thing I would change about this sentence is that she has not yet "completed" the transition process.

Make sense?

[NuclearDem]

21. Got it. Edited again.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[michigandem58]

27. Can you give us a link to your definitions?

Or did you just make them up?

[backscatter712]

28. The neural wiring that causes a person to identify as male or female comes together in the womb.

Being transgender is like being gay - it's determined in the brain, not between the legs, and it's something that is not chosen.

Think about it. Why would a cisgender male want to cut his willy off or have hormones that make him develop female body characteristics? If you're a guy and like being a guy, why would you do that?

Chelsea Manning wants hormone therapy because she's a woman. Her brain is wired as a female brain, and she has identified as female since childhood.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. Exactly. Chelsea Manning isn't a man who *wants* to be a woman.

She is a woman, but due to the way she developed before she was born (oversimplifying somewhat), she got a a female brain but not the body that should have gone with it. There seems to be a misconception that people get gender reassignment surgery because they want to be the opposite gender, while the reality is that they want a body that corresponds to their brain. And this is not a matter of choice, and we should show compassion and understanding for those who have this condition, sometimes called gender dysphoria, instead of making light of their situation or, worse, treating them like freaks.

Many years ago - the late '60s - one of my classmates, a biological male, was transgender, although no one knew it at the time. I knew him (and I'm using the male pronoun not out of disrespect, but because that's the only way I ever knew this person) pretty well, at least I thought so; I never dated him but we had the same major and hung around in the same crowd. Shortly after graduation he married another classmate, but then he left the state and I lost contact with him. Some years later, at an alumni gathering, I and the others in our "group" learned to our great surprise that he had had gender reassignment surgery. This would have been the mid-to-late '70s, when this was still quite unusual. None of us ever had the slightest clue that he identified as a woman, although he must have all along in order to have taken this drastic (and in those days, pretty radical) step. It must have been very hard to have kept up the pretense of being a man when in her head she wasn't.

Once the Internet became a thing I tried to find out what happened to her. Recently I was able to track her down on Google and discovered that over the years she has had a very successful career in an IT field. I am very glad for that - it must have taken a lot of courage to do what she did almost 40 years ago, and then take control of her life and make a success of it. When I read all these snide comments about transgender people I think of this former classmate and wish people would try to be more understanding.

[JDPriestly]

30. I never thought about this that much and have a question.

A friend of mine is pregnant and to be sure the baby is OK had some tests done. Though it is very early in the pregnancy, the tests showed the baby is a female.

Was that maybe some sort of DNA test?

I have known several people who changed their gender. They went through hormone therapy. If they had a DNA test, would it show their original sex or their chosen or developed gender?

How does this work in terms of the chemistry?

[enlightenment]

52. Sometimes there are chromosomal differences

Sometimes there are none.

Try reading this - it might help:

http://transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_UnderstandingTrans.pdf

[NuclearDem]

36. Oh crap, did NOT mean it to read like that.

Fixed.

[snooper2]

38. "based on the masculinity/feminity binary"

Could you elaborate on that please?

Everything else you wrote makes good sense except that one part-

[NuclearDem]

39. Just bigger words for "gender roles."

If someone's born with male sex characteristics, they're expected to act however their respective culture expects men to act. Same for people born with female characteristics.

The problem with that cultural view of gender and sexuality is that the issue isn't necessary a binary, but a continuum--no one is 100% male or 100% female.

[MotherPetrie]

41. K&R

[ladyVet]

46. Human beings are way more complex that we thought.

We are an amazing construction, with wonderful variations of all sorts. It will be nice when society catches up.

[MadrasT]

50. Thank you

Also -- some of us do not identify as male or female (or man or woman)

I literally consider myself to be "other" (nongendered or third-gendered)

This is a tough time to be transgender on DU - my heart literally hurts from reading some of the horrible swill that people are posting

[haikugal]

54. (((Hugs))))

[GeorgeGist]

58. I'm all in favor of respecting Manning's wishes ...

but its clear every major dictionary disagrees with you.