About the Doctors Without Borders "confirmation" of the chemical attacks....

[Junkdrawer]

Brussels/New York, August 24, 2013 -- Three hospitals in Syria's Damascus governorate that are supported by the international medical humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) have reported to MSF that they received approximately 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in less than three hours on the morning of Wednesday, August 21, 2013. Of those patients, 355 reportedly died.

Since 2012, MSF has built a strong and reliable collaboration with medical networks, hospitals and medical points in the Damascus governorate, and has been providing them with drugs, medical equipment and technical support. Due to significant security risks, MSF staff members have not been able to access the facilities.

“Medical staff working in these facilities provided detailed information to MSF doctors regarding large numbers of patients arriving with symptoms including convulsions, excess saliva, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision and respiratory distress,” said Dr. Bart Janssens, MSF director of operations.

Patients were treated using MSF-supplied atropine, a drug used to treat neurotoxic symptoms. MSF is now trying to replenish the facilities’ empty stocks and provide additional medical supplies and guidance.

“MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr. Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”

....

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?id=7029&cat=press-release

So MSF is supplying drugs and receiving reports. Their personnel have yet to visit the sites.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Whilst there is no doubt that chemicals were used

what remains in doubt is who used them.

[Junkdrawer]

3. Numbers, severity of symptoms, etc. etc.

were all given using the good name of MSF.

I'd put more stock in the reports if MSF Doctors were giving first hand reports.

[dipsydoodle]

4. The numbers do not explain who used the chemicals.

.

[Junkdrawer]

5. True.

[KittyWampus]

7. True. However, Syrian opposition says has smuggled attack samples out of Syria

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentPrint/2/0/79764/World/0/Syrian-opposition-says-has-smuggled-attack-samples.aspx

[dipsydoodle]

9. The samples would confirm the use of chemicals not who used them.

Only the insurgents had a motive for using chemicals - namely to get help from the west to aid their lame efforts.

[KittyWampus]

12. "Only the insurgents had a motive for using chemicals"- Glad your mind is made up.

[winter is coming]

17. That's one explanation. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if this is a ploy by PNAC. n/t

[sabrina 1]

28. That would not prove who used them, although it's interesting that

the 'rebels' have samples.

Curveball, WMDs, Iraq. Been here before. This time I want to hear from the UN. Bush went to war without waiting for anyone's review, because they knew they were lying and it could have been proven.

If we rush into Syria, I will assume and so will the word, that we are doing it again.

If our motives are sincere, we will wait for a thorough investigation, and no, we cannot be involved, no one trusts the US on these matters.

[winter is coming]

16. And who provided them to the users. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

18. From memory

they had Saudi Arabian labelling. Those were the ones found a month or so back. Search back on DU and you should find a picture.

[Warpy]

2. Lots of weasel words in that

I have a lot of questions about some of the video that has been released.

I agree with MSF that some agent was likely used and people were at least sickened by it. I also agree that they don't know what it was or who released it in a populated area.

We continue to have no dog in this fight, just like we don't in Egypt, either, and the choice is the same in both places: a government by religious zealots or a government by a strongman propped up by the military.

[Junkdrawer]

6. We're being given carefully edited accounts in our media....

Edited to enhance certainty and remove doubt.

Reminds me of 2003 and Iraq....

[longship]

13. I would not call them weasel words.

One doesn't go beyond what the data says, hence their circumspect report. I find this report a good one, in line with any good scientist would make. They don't like to jump to confusions.

Please don't call them weasel words. The data is what the data is. And the doctor's are in the field and likely don't have equipment to discern to origin of the neurological symptoms. Hence, their saying only that they are consistent with... Etc.

Regardless, I agree that this report is troubling. An otherwise good post.

[Catherina]

8. Unraveling again. Thank you. And thanks Drs Without Borders

for not letting those weasels get away with hiding behind your good name.

[Arctic Dave]

10. Hmmmm. MSF has no first hand knowledge.

Which means there really is no unbiased accounting of the tragedy.

Just a few videos from another biased source.

Another gaping hole in the narrative.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

11. Distinction without a difference.

If they needed to get more of the antidote because it ran out so quickly, that's enough evidence. Pinpoint pupils are a big tell also.
You can always find some point of doubt if that's how your mind is biased. Doesn't mean the atropine didn't get all used up, and it won't bring back to life either the victims or - far more tellingly - the folks who treated them and died.

[Junkdrawer]

14. About "the folks who treated them and died."

I watched that unfold.

First the videos showing unprotected personnel giving aid were released...

THEN

Russia said that the videos were suspicious because such personnel would die themselves...

THEN

The rebels reported aid personnel dying...

[Benton D Struckcheon]

15. Oh, absolutely. Believe what you want. Really. n/t

[sabrina 1]

29. Was there a problem with the sequence of events as the commenter

outlined? That is what I understood happened also. Do you have other information?

It is not about what people 'want' to believe, I remember Bush supporters telling us that back when we believed the Weapons Inspectors, the experts who knew there were no WMDs in Iraq, but we were RIGHT to believe them.

There is a feeling of deja vu about all this from the arming of these extremists, who are now slaughtering Kurds btw to the WMDs being the excuse to get us in there and speed things up as the people are fighting harder and longer than anticipated.

As Juan Cole, I believe said, the length of the war demonstrates that the Syrian people are not with the 'rebels'. They may not like Assad, but they are angry at these outsiders in their country and they definitely do not want a US manifactured 'democracy' like Iraq.

[malaise]

19. Thanks Junkdrawer

[Junkdrawer]

20. Dateline 2018...US Media does "soul searching" examination of how they were "less than rigorous"..

regarding their reports leading up to the Syrian debacle.

[malaise]

21. You betcha

and we remind all of our doubts since 2013

[Raksha]

27. Those are the most frightening words I've read in a long time

because they are so eerily familiar. I seem to recall reading something like that a few years ago. Different date, though.

[winter is coming]

22. Kick for visibility. n/t

[Amonester]

24. Congress refuses to raise taxes and want to shutdown the government.

No money left for...

[ConcernedCanuk]

25. I have a problem with this

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from the OP:

"they received approximately 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in less than three hours"

now, I'm 62 years old - unfortunately been to hospitals numerous times in the last 10 years.

Maybe they have one hell of a staff over there, but to diagnose 3,600 patients in 3 hours ???

WOW!

CC

[HooptieWagon]

26. I think victims were taken to several different facilities.

Thats my understanding. Some first responders were victims b/c of lack of protection. MSF based their report on information provided to them, too dangerous to see victims first hand. And they don't know which side used gas.
There is a high likelyhood western countries are being played. Since neither side is a potential ally, strong caution should be used before getting involved.

[ConcernedCanuk]

32. "There is a high likelyhood western countries are being played"

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yeppers - but - I think the MIC have their fingers in this.

All that firepower cruising around the Middle East,

I suspect there are some itching trigger fingers.

(sigh)

CC

[Ms. Toad]

30. So the 3600 patients were supposed to politely wait

to display neurotoxic symptoms until there was a doctor available to diagnose them?

Should the people who died on 9/11 have spaced out their deaths over a time frame in which it was reasonable to diagnose the cause of death (not suggesting a relationship between the two events, it is just an event which took place over a similar time frame with a large number of casualties)?

(I don't know all of the details - and I expect the numbers are likely to change, but to challenge the reality of the devastating attack (whoever was at fault) because you don't believe they could have diagnosed them that quickly seems a bit callous.

[ConcernedCanuk]

31. Not callous at all - and definitely not disputing the reality of the attack

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Canada has one of the best Health Care systems in the World, yet most times can take hours/days/weeks to diagnose a problem/symptom/cause.

THAT is my problem with trying to believe that 3600 people can be diagnosed in 3 hours.

And, with reference to 911 - dead is dead - not really a big rush to figure out why - no matter what the cause,

they ain't coming back.

Recently I had to be taken to emerg by ambulance - put me through the normal tests, tox test, blood tests, MRI then an x-ray with video capabilities to figure out what was going on - 3 hours later - they figured it out.

And that was just for one person, me.

I am aware that there were at least 3 hospitals involved, but even then - I've been in some of the largest hospitals in Ontario, and I doubt that even multiple hospitals could diagnose that many people in that time frame.

What do I believe? - I think the MIC is just itching to get into another war.

CC

[Ms. Toad]

33. The article says they received 3600 patients in that time frame,

Not that they were diagnosed in that time frame.

But it would likely have been very clear, very quickly, which ones were exhibiting (very similar) neurotoxic symptoms. It isn't as if 3600 people came in with very different symptoms from each other who each had to be interviewed and assessed individually. According to the article, within a 3 hours period, 3600 people came in displaying very similar symptoms. They would have been in triage mode and working very quickly to care for those who were most seriously injured and likely to survive, identifying and giving comfort to those who weren't (to the extent they could spare the hands), and delaying for later treatment those least seriously injured.

You went in as a single patient with a unique (compared to others appearing at that time) set of symptoms. That is a very different scenario from a rapidly developing crisis when at least tentative diagnoses and likelihood of survival must be assessed and acted on instantaneously - regardless of how many bodies appear at the ER doors. And yes, that is very similar to 911 - with the exception that most died at the scene, or the Boston Marathon, or bomb casualties anywhere armed conflict exists. You don't run the normal tests, tox tests, blood tests, or x-rays. You go with your gut, separate individuals very quickly into categories for critical care, care won't make a difference, or care later when there is time.