I've been moving all week and missed the Chelsea Manning wars here.

[WilliamPitt]

Thank God.

Because I'm one of the people who might have been labeled a bigot in the heat of the moment.

Not because I am, but because I am crashingly ignorant when it comes to transgender issues, as I have come to find out as this story has unfolded. Just the other day on my Facebook wall, I posited the question - very politely - as to why the military or the government should be "forced" (in Manning's lawyer's words) to pay for her sexual reassignment. "They are supposed to keep him alive and healthy," I said, "but not happy. Wouldn't this process be aimed at making him happy?" - and, yes, I said "him" in the post.

The very first reply I got explained what "body dysmorphia" is, why it is an actual, legitimate medical condition, and why it falls within the yardsticks of the kind of medical matters that keep a prisoner alive and healthy, and not just happy. It made perfect sense, I got it, and came away knowing some things I didn't know before...but then, right on the heels of that exchange, came a barrage of anger and accusations that I am "trans bigoted," etc., basically because I didn't have the answers to these questions in my hip pocket.

It seems I had the DU Manning Experience in a microcosm on Facebook.

In catching up with the doings around here, I've seen some legitimately disgusting and hateful comments. Manning's announcement has exposed a number of deep-seated and repulsive biases within this community, and that fact is not to be denied.

But there are also a lot of people who don't know, who are not versed in the politics and the proprieties of transgender issues, and I've seen a number of instances where they blunder into a thread with that ignorance as the hood ornament. I would have been one of them had my computer not been in a box.

We mean well, and I, for one, have been deeply edified and educated by the conversation on this matter here.

My point: before you take someone's head off at the eyebrows, make sure you're dealing with an actual bigot, and not just someone who is treading new and unfamiliar ground.

#LateToTheParty

[Little Star]

1. Many of us have been deeply edified and educated by the conversation. k&r

[NYC_SKP]

2. Indeed, folks need to distinguish ignorance, insensitivity, and malice as separate things.

There was a LOT of activity on the boards and among Malicious Intruder Removal Team members.

The community went into action and we are all better for it.

[arcane1]

16. And to distinguish honest ignorance from willfull ignorance.

And to distinguish both from just being an ass There has been too much of that whole non-distinguishing thing around here lately, and not just on this topic. I'm hoping DU will eventually chill out

[jberryhill]

3. You know, I've been to the Czech Republic Three Times...

...and I still say "Czechoslovakia" every now and then.

Oh well.

[GP6971]

4. Same here as far as Korea is concerned

Pusan is now Busan, Taejon is now Daejon, tongducheon is now Dongducheon. I still slip and use the old name even when I'm there. Old habits I guess

[jberryhill]

6. Always remember which gu your dong is in

[GP6971]

15. Always n/t

[wercal]

8. Praguephobia

I haven't posted much on the subject; but, I was stunned with the velocity of the crowd - less than 24 hours after the public announcement, using the wrong pronoun brought instant labeling as a transphobic.

For years, this person has been in the public square, known as a man named Bradley...but no grace period was given to those who couldn't shift gears fast enough. (BTW, with no official name change to date, the Army will continue to use Bradley on all official documents, and even mail must be addressed to Bradley). We are in what is known as a transition period. Most people don't do it in such a public way (and some that do, use a similar name - Chastity vs Chaz)...most start out asking people they know (family and co-workers) to use the new identity, and go from there...and I'm sure that even well intentioned family members occasionally slip up.

I say...give it a week or two, before running people out of town.

[Ms. Toad]

24. I encourage you to look carefully at where the heat has been.

Nearly all of the heat has been directed to people who deliberately, in discussion about the transition, insist that they will continue to use male pronouns until some magic point at which she passes some standard of their own devising to become "legitimately" female.

I have seen virtually none of it directed at people who weren't aware of the request, and most of those asking sincere questions have been responded to with the same tone.

But you do also have to remember that when you post online, you can always read your post before you hit the button - so online "slips" are not in the same category as face-to-face slips. In unrelated Manning threads, slips are more understandable - because you could be posting in those threads not having seen the news. But in threads expressly discussing Manning's transition it stretches belief to think they are inadvertent.

[Summer Hathaway]

53. I guess you missed this little gem ...

"I have seen virtually none of it directed at people who weren't aware of the request, and most of those asking sincere questions have been responded to with the same tone."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023520855#post254

The first reply is from someone stating that it had been 36 hours since Manning's request to be identified a a female had been made public, and it would take some people time to adapt to the new she-rather-than-he language. They were immediately told that they were too lazy to type "she" rather than "he", or were defending transphobia by being slow to do so.

The thread goes on from there, with the OP (and her sheeple followers) belittling those who had NOT COMPLIED with the change-over immediately, regardless of their valid reasons for not having done so (the most valid reason being that after three-plus years of posting about Manning as a 'he', referring to her as a 'she' took some time to adjust to).

But NO EXCUSES are to be considered - ALL MUST COMPLY right fuckin' now, or be forever labelled as defending transphobia.

[Ms. Toad]

56. I have seen the thread -

And throughout the thread (and shortly after it was posted also added to the initial post) there are repeated explanations that it was directed at people who knew, and chose not to respect, Chelsea Manning's requested pronoun usage.

The response was to a person who knew of the request. It was in an online setting, in threads discussing her transition, three-years plus of posting about Manning is not a valid reason in that context.

Online, unlike in face-to-face conversations, you have the ability to read through your post before hitting enter. If you are in a thread discussing Chelsea Manning's transition, you have to be aware of it. So when you use male pronouns, or refer to her as a man, it is deliberate. (That is a different situation from a thread discussing something else, in which the poster might not know, or discussing things in a face to face situations when habits and the conversation pace can easily interfere with the best of intentions).

[Summer Hathaway]

65. Bullshit.

"And throughout the thread ... there are repeated explanations that it was directed at people who knew, and chose not to respect, Chelsea Manning's requested pronoun usage."

The very first reply was from someone explaining that it had only been a matter of hours since Manning's request had been made public, and some time should be given to people who had not yet adapted to referring to 'she' as 'he'. There was no refusal to respect Manning's wishes in that post whatsoever - which didn't stop the OP from immediately belittling said poster.

There were other posts in that vein, people explaining that after discussing Manning for three-plus years as a man, it would take time for people to think of 'him' as 'her' - to which the OP's replies were nasty and demeaning. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous, as anyone who reads that thread can see for themselves.

"The best of intentions" have been expressed by those who empathize with Manning's emotional turmoil over the issue of publicly transitioning from a male to female persona, and those who support the fight of trans-gendered people to be recognized and given the rights they are due.

To label those who have not switched from using "him" to "her", within that OP's self-declared deadline for doing so, as transphobes or defenders of transphobia is beyond divisive - it is an insult to those of true good intentions who are being told that their "intentions" or true feelings are worthless - it is only their use of pronouns that really matters.

Such trivialization of an important issue - paring it down to who uses 'he' or 'she' in a post on a message board - only served the OP's need for self-importance in declaring 'deadlines' that must be adhered to, as per her demands.

[Ms. Toad]

80. When you are in a thread discussing the transition (as that thread was)

And it is clear that you know of the request to use female pronouns (among other things, it was in the OP), why do you need time?

You can't remember from opening the thread to composing a post that she has asked for female pronouns to be used? Not believable.
It just slipped out, out of habit? You have all the time in the world to compose your post. You can reread it as many times as you want before hitting post. And - if you make a mistake you can easily edit it to fix the mistake.

Slipping in an interactive conversation is completely understandable (and acknowledged by the OP)
Slipping occasionally in other conversations is completely understandable (and acknowledged by the OP)
Not being aware of the request and using the wrong gender until you are aware of it is completely understandable (and acknowledged by the OP).

The OP was in response to comments like this (just a few I can find quickly):

• "Manning is a man until a sex change operation makes him a female. This shit with calling him "She" in the absence of said sex change operation is fucking insane."
  
• "Until Chelsea has surgery he is still a "he""
  
• "That is the way that it is. He should be allowed to have a sex change operation because not allowing that is cruel punishment, but until that happens, in my view, Manning is a man."
  
• "Just because someone tells you there is now a distinction that as far as any of us knew never existed before doesn't mean that is real."
  
• "But if I happen to catch that person coming out of the shower without a towel, and certain male parts are there, it's absolutely fucking with my head to insist I call that person a woman."
  
• "Using the "wrong" pronoun is not even in the same league with a racial slur unless the wrong pronoun is "it"...which is totally offensive."
  
• " I'll continue to refer to Private Manning as, well, Private Manning until he gets his kick. Then It will be up to the government; if they grant him a gender change then it will be a she, if not,? IT?"
  
• "I don't see someone using the "wrong" pronoun as being a burning issue compared to all the other things Trans people have to deal with...one of those things being outright hatred from people who have no empathy at all for their plight. . . . I don't play games. Don't show me orange and tell me I have to call it green."
  
• "I'm sorry, but...in order for me to "be respectful", it means I have to suspend my belief in something I know as fact."

Getting gender right is important, and to deliberately misgender is disrespectful not only to Chelsea Manning, but to trans* individuals and those who love them who are members of DU. There's leeway, as noted above, but don't jump into a thread posted out of frustration arising from deliberately hurtful comments like the ones above and expect a gentle response to excuses about why you can't get the gender right in an online discussion (meaning you have time to think and gender-check your post) about how important it is to trans* individuals that you get gender right.

The thread wasn't directed to folks who were not aware of the announcement, or to folks engaging in interactive conversations about Manning who slip out of habit without the opportunity to review their comments before they are out of their mouths. It was directed to people like those whose comments I quoted above. While I try to be more polite about it, I have a lot of sympathy for those whose response is less measured.

[wercal]

59. Well I saw lots of posts about how vicious some posts were...

...but they are hidden, so I really dont have a feel for them
I did see more than one post...the very next day, less than 24 hours after the announcement...while news stories are still using the masculine pronouns...that people who were likely new to this and unfamiliar with the protocol were excoriated for using 'he'. I found it to be a little over the top.

Again, I haven't seen the vicious stuff, since it was hidden.

[Ms. Toad]

61. If you are going to suggest that the people complaining were innocently

caught up in the appropriate response to the people who were deliberately mis-gendering her, then you really need to provide specifics - look at the hidden posts, track back the rumors of people who were unfamiliar with the protocol being excoriated. Many of the people being most vocal are the worst (deliberate) offenders (sometimes with years of history with this discussion) - or are talking about comments made to the worst offenders.

[wercal]

102. Well I can't look at everything that was hidden

Some of the messages were 'auto-removed' and there is no trace of them.

Here's a thread, in which the OP initially expresses surprise at the announcement, and reply #10, IMHO, immediately puts the OP in the defensive:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023513555

Posts 17, 18, 19 also put the OP on the defensive. Post 12 goes straight for the word 'transphobic'.

People would not interact this way in a typical face to face conversation. But on the internet, for some reason, they do.

Post 20 is the OP's attempt to get the mob to put out their torches and put down their boiling oil.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this very thread, somebody named Kestrel91316 comments in Post 67 that he was unfairly attacked. I couldn't find the initiating post, but my search for Kestrel did turn up an exchange with you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113730819#post2

Kestrel gets very little sympathy for using the wrong pronoun, only once.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if you go down in this thread, you will see William Pitt put down and accused of being coy in his ignorance of the correct protocol...and told more than once that he is disqualified from speaking on the issue. And this is for stuff he posted on FB...and tried to discuss in the OP. For many, no discussion is allowed...Pitt, a long time member, is now not to be trusted.

[Ms. Toad]

109. The tone of that first OP sets my teeth on edge.

Expressing surprise at the announcement is one thing - but there is no innocent reason I can fathom for adding the "crazy" smiley. That particular thread was - at best - started with no sensitivity to trans* individuals, and at worst - flame bait.

As to Kestral91316 - there are two supremely offensive pronouns which are almost exclusively used as a slam against trans* individuals: "he-she" and "it." s/he is way too close to he-she, so it was not just the wrong pronoun (i.e. "he&quot , but that it was very close to a pronoun which is used nearly exclusively to put trans* individuals in their place as less than human. I probably wouldn't have responded that strongly - but given the history of that pronoun (well known on DU), the response doesn't particularly surprise me. And, frankly, as long as she has been around DU as (by her own assertion) a good friend of LGBT individuals, the fact that she made that blunder in the first place does surprise me. It is not something I would expect a good friend of the LGBT community to say.

Pitt has a history on DU, not all of it pleasant. For better or worse people react to it. 'nuff said.

[wercal]

114. Well I am relatively new to typing the pronouns...

But in conversation, I have said 'she' followed quickly by 'he', or the reverse. So I've said 'he-she' or 'she-he'....and I have to tell you it was with no malice whatsoever. I wouldn't characterize it as confusion, but more as my brain not being able to keep up with my mouth. It can be tough to immediately remember, especially early on. For similar reasons, I screw up the date on checks half way into January.

I understand the typed word is completely different (and I did not know Kestral used s/he), but I just wanted you to know that if you hear somebody use he-she in conversation, it may not indicate malice...it could be an honest mistake.

[Ms. Toad]

115. Absolutely.

Because of the pace of face to face conversations, and habit, it is really easy to slip up - and all of my trans* friends are pretty tolerant especially in the early days of transition.

[MuseRider]

5. It is hard when one is learning

and others expect and deserve an immediate outcome of good things. Those talking about it tread a fine line, it is THAT important. With your reach you need to get up to speed, that may be part of the upset. Those of us who have seen you as you talked about these things know your heart is in the right place. These issues have been a long time coming into the public spotlight, it is hard not to want to see them handled correctly and with the utmost care.

I still mix my pronouns from time to time. Almost to a person the people who are with me know I am just a dope and not a bigot but these people have taught me everything I know with patience and kindness.

I heard there was some goings on on your FB page but missed it thankfully.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. So on Facebook you decided to speak about that of which you are 'crashingly ignorant'? Why?

Prejudice has to do with prejudging, which has to do with skipping the 'I'm asking about this' part and heading right to the 'I'm offering up my opinion cold' part. If you are so 'ignorant' why not inquire prior to pontification? Why must one's ignorance be a fucking head ornament instead of something to be corrected by knowledge? What's with the proud display of this ornament?
One of my best friends is transgender and it is not new to see folks feign 'confusion' in order to keep saying 'he' instead of she after they are corrected, it is very easy to see good intention and also easy to see the malicious folks. The most malicious of the malicious beat trans people to death, that's some context for this 'oh they blunder in all confused' shit. The spectrum is 'authentic confusion' to 'beat you to death with my fists'. It is not a responsibility of anyone to take any chances with those who are intentionally creepy.

[Ilsa]

11. He did ask a question.

It had bias showing his ignorance, but he opened up a discussion on his page, hopefully, so he could see beyond his own experience, and he listened to the person who responded. That doesn't sound like pontification to me. That sounds like someone not being closed off to learning.

Those of us without transgendered friends and family have to start somewhere. Mine started with a neighbor's grown (and gone) daughter when I was 39. I guess this was Will's opening.

[WilliamPitt]

17. Don't bother.

With all due respect to the parties involved, Bluenorthwest lives only to judge on DU. That has been my experience, at least. There has never been a time when I came away from an exchange with Bluenorthwest without feeling like the lowest of the low. It is what it is. Thanks for saying what I would have said had I felt like bothering, and get ready for a scolding. It's coming, sure as sunrise. You're a better person than Bluenorthwest would have you believe. Remember that, and you'll be fine.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Wow.

All due respect indeed. Why even type that?
Asking a question is easy, it has no need to be loaded with assumptions. You could have simply asked about that which you don't know about, but you had to tell first.
I note that you did not have the respect to answer my questions. I am not ignorant of this subject, perhaps your lack of knowledge has to do with how you engage others?
I had no idea so many DUers were so utterly backward and creepy about gender issues. No idea at all. The wages of such ignorance:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023532990

Whatever Will, this week has been too heartbreaking to express. I'm sorry you are upset. I am too. Very much so. Disappointed in this community to say the least.

[kestrel91316]

69. Will isn't the one in this picture who is creepy.

[msanthrope]

41. I was gratified to read your exchange with Bluenorthwest...it lets me know

it's not just me he has serious problems with.

[WilliamPitt]

42. We should start a support group.

[Luminous Animal]

46. Yeehaw! Circle the wagons!

[msanthrope]

50. Careful Will...hanging out with a noted authoritariancryptofascist will only get you in trouble. nt

[dionysus]

58. "There has never been a time when I came away from an exchange with Bluenorthwest without feeling.."

that's it in a nutshell. you could get accused of transphobia or homophobia posting in a thread about breakfast cereal by that poster.

[Ilsa]

72. DU used to be

a soft place to fall, even if you made a mistake or had a difference of opinion with someone. Now it's vicious. Enter at your own risk, and wear boots to muddle through the bloody entrails remaining from evisceration of posters.

My suspicion is that it's a paid infiltration of troublemakers. And it makes me want to stay.

[RC]

106. There are many to the Right of Conservative around here, passing themselves off as "Democrats".

Most adhere to the letter of the rules, but not the spirit, as the spirit part is beyond them.
Lockstep is their common mode of response. Pile-ons are common. You use a different drum and you will be disparage for breathing in, when they are breathing out. You have to lose your identity to be one of them. The Borg is their ideal. None of them should be having a place on a Liberal/Progressive, Center and Left of Center Democratic message board. Even though many have been here for years. That time here gives them the credence to spout their RW spin and Bullshit on a LW board.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. The 'question' came with the assertion that it is about 'happiness' and as such the 'question' was

a statement of opinion with a question mark at the end. It contained opinion which it assumed to be true.
'Is that what you are wearing?'
'Are you really wearing that?'

One is a question, the other is a comment couched as a question.

[WilliamPitt]

26. You're really stretching.

Actually, my assertion was how the question was framed, i.e. this is what I think, please explain why I am wrong. That's how I got the answer I got, which educated me, which is something you'd care about if you were interested in more than lobbing turd grenades.

Bluenorthwest, I think you are a very interesting person, an incredible member of this community, with a depth of experience few can rival. All of this shines through in your posts here, in Technicolor...but, to crib a line from Harper Lee, talking to you leaves one with the sensation of sinking slowly to the bottom of the ocean.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. And you are a constantly aggressive writer, Will, never skip a chance to insult others

Harper Lee does not agree with you. Your question was poorly constructed Will. You got a bad reaction on FB. You got one here. You can blame me and say 'turd' all you wish, the fact is you got the same reaction from others. There is a good reason for that, Will. I thought you were asking why you got a bad reaction on FB, and the answer is speak gently when uninformed and in a strange country. Or keep blaming the people you insult for being insulted, either way.

[WilliamPitt]

33. The only bad reaction I got on DU was from you.

Ponder that.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Not the only criticism however, and you got blasted on FB and you characterize the reasons as

'not having this in my pocket' or something when perhaps the reasons were the words you used and the way you used them. Perhaps just a moment's consideration that you might have had some of that criticism coming validly? A moment in which you are not insulting me or complaining about the others who found your words objectionable? Everybody else is wrong but you and the others 'confused' adults who apparently can not do a Google search and learn a few things before doing the 'keep him happy' shit? You don't know how to learn that which you don't know without asking loaded questions?
Your post is about the blasting you got for how you asked what you asked. So yeah, it's just me Will. Clearly. Just me.

[snooper2]

112. Did you get a chance to see the sheep party yet?

[cui bono]

13. He posted a question and stated that he learned from it.

Isn't that what you would want to have happen?

Honestly, I think you missed the point and intent of the post.

[WilliamPitt]

18. See post #17.

[Liberal Veteran]

60. You would think that would be the case.

Unfortunately, I think some folks don't realize that the question, "How can you know where I am coming from, if you haven't been where I've been?" works in both directions.

Put another way, folks are really quick to place their own experiences and frames of reference on others and don't show regard for those who don't "get it" instantly.

In my own experience, I try to recall how dealing with my very fundamentalist family reacted to my coming out as gay. Expecting an instant turnaround in thinking was simply not in the cards and probably unrealistic. If I just stormed off in a huff and called them bigots (which they were at times), I doubt I would have gotten as far with them as being patient and kind and remembering that I was up against 20 to 70 years of thinking one way. To me, that would be the equivalent of saying "cheer up" to someone who is clinically depressed and then getting angry they weren't walking on sunshine from there on out.

[mwooldri]

63. I can't speak for Mr. Pitt but...

I'm with him in terms of gender identity and issues... I most definitely am a newbie. Please correct me if I among... but don't opinions and questions collide from time to time? E.g." I think X is right. Am I? " Sometimes pontification comes before inquiry.

I can think of one example where one's ignorance can be a (blanking) ornament. They are issued by State Department of Motor Vehicles. It would be called a "Learners Permit". Fortunately most holders of a Learners Permit do get the hang of things but sadly there are people who will never learn. On the way to becoming proficient drivers, they'll pull out in front of you, drive on the wrong side of the road, go too slowly, wobble, brake too hard... that list goes on and on. In America we don't usually plant stickers over our vehicles to tell the world that the driver is a learner driver. So at times there will be skilled drivers who curse at the vehicle in front, totally oblivious to the fact that the driver is still learning to drive.

So after I offer my example of equating knowledge of driving with knowledge of gender identity and issues, please I ask... am I way off the mark? Aren't most people the ones holding the learners permit in relation to gender identity issues?

I understand from your post that ... and I might be wrong here... that you have witnessed true hateful bigotry towards a transgendered person. I'm going to guess that this person has suffered a whole lot because of people who should know better don't do the right thing and be respectful of that person's station in life. Bigotry is wrong, period. Yes, it needs to be pointed out, and addressed. But would I be right in stating that if not addressed in the correct way, being hostile up front that it can cause alienation between the individual pointing out the error of another individuals ways? That the individual who made the mistake in the first place will go away thinking that yes they did mess up, yes they will be respectful going forward but gain a negative impression of the transgender community and possibly lose a potential or actual friend over this?
Just from reading a number of the threads, I know who is very combative and I wouldn't want to engage them in any way.

Like Mr. Pitt, gender identity issues are not familiar to me on a daily basis. If I was asked to name a single famous transgender person, I could only think of one - Dana International. If I was asked to name a single homosexual celebrity, I would be spoilt for choice. Bigotry towards anyone for any reason isn't right. I believe that it should be pointed out.

I want to ask if you can be patient with us please? Those of us who have their learners permit in gender identity issues do want to learn but we will make mistakes along the way. Though I agree with you in your statement that the spectrum of people that are under-educated with gender identity range broadly between a genuine lack of knowledge and those who reject the existence of transgendered people, some violently, I feel that spectrum is more slanted towards the "I don't Know" crowd than the "I hate transgendered people" gathering.

In any case, I believe Chelsea Manning's history is being rewritten. All of her past history will need to replace her former identity with her present one. Wouldn't I be correct with this? That the history books will show that she leaked the info to wikileaks? She was/is a Private First Class in the US Army? She went to xyz high school? If I'm correct, would I be also correct in stating that it takes time to rewrite history?

I've probably gone on a bit long here, but my mind does wander, I can be wrong, and I might have even gone off-topic. Also if I have offended aanyone in this post, I sincerely apologize - and please let me know. Thanks for reading.

[kestrel91316]

68. I am so done with you and your hate.

I can't recall you EVER saying anything nice to anybody.

[KittyWampus]

9. Best Wishes for your family in your new home. May Brigid bless the house where you dwell

May Brigid bless the house where you dwell,
every fireside door and every wall;
every heart that beats beneath its roof,
every hand that toils to bring it joy,
every foot that walks its portals through.
may Brigid bless the house that shelters you.

[MNBrewer]

10. Well, now you DO know.

Crash course, but it's not like transgender issues suddenly sprang into being last week. Seems a pretty big gap, for a liberal Democrat, at this point in time.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. I don't get why you are proud of lacking knowledge and having a limited life experience.

If you don't know any (insert minority name here) people, perhaps not riffing about them is the wiser choice?

[WilliamPitt]

22. Proud?

Whither pride in my OP?

[Bluenorthwest]

36. you are fairly advanced in liberal life to have zero knowledge about these things.

It is a hell of a gap in your knowledge and experience, and you don't seem to have any feelings that such a gap is perhaps, present for reasons of your own making. I'd have a twinge of chagrin about it rather than a list of demands to offer up as to why the uninformed are in the right.

I am going to assume you have no idea about the depth and horrors of what has been said on DU this week. Unlike you, Will, I have trans people that I love very much, and have known for most of my life, man and boy. I don't have the luxury of asking questions in ways that piss people off then blaming them for being pissed off.
I am to be honest, very surprised you are so inexperienced in this part of life. I did not know so many are so deeply uninformed. I assumed most of the crap was intentional because, damn, how can a grown up be without any facts on this?

[WilliamPitt]

39. "I did not know so many are so deeply uninformed."

I have exactly one transgender friend. We knew each other from hanging out at a bar called Bukowski's. She and I spent all our time talking about Israel/Palestine, because that was her great passion. We never discussed transgender issues. Not once. She never brought it up, and I took that as a cue not to. She's a hot shit, and came out to our farewell-Boston party at Buk's two weeks ago. She looked great...and it didn't come up then, either.

That's it. That's my whole transgender experience. Sorry.

I don't hate transgender people, or fear them, and I am for their rights the way I am for anyone's rights. I think a lot of people are more like me than like you in this regard. You're lashing me for my ignorance, fine, good, whatever, vent that spleen, but I think you're onto the nub of it: my ignorance, unfortunately, is the rule rather than the exception. That's why I thanked DU, because reading through all the debates here was massively informative.

And that's a good thing.

It is indeed a hell of a gap in my knowledge and experience. That gap has been profoundly filled thanks to everything I've read here.

And that's a good thing.

I'm done explaining myself to you, friend. You are never satisfied. Never appeased. Never never never. I'm glad for people like you, because you make good and necessary change with your ceaselessness, but I am not the bad guy, and if you think I am, you need to realign your optics.

Cheers.

[Politicub]

40. That's what I thought when I read his post, too

I'm glad he had an awakening and all, but it was a highly indulgent post that attempts to place a fig leaf over knee jerk judgements.

[Luminous Animal]

45. Thank you, Bluenorthwest, for sticking with this...

I'm pretty sure that Will has me blocked so I didn't post anything but then I decided to anyway and then stop by here to give you mad props.

[WilliamPitt]

49. Nope.

Not blocked.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Note how deeply alone I am in crticizing your post?

Note that others here agree with me, and you did not engage with me without coming blasting with lectures and personal attacks.

[WilliamPitt]

55. Yep. You win.

You always do.

[Bluenorthwest]

107. No one wins in a converstaion like this, Will, and you know that.

It was YOU who just had to go all personal and declare that I was all alone in taking offense, although the thread was about others who'd been offended elsewhere. You jumped on me, threw out Harper Lee's name as some sort of slam, went into detailed reportage about what you think of ME not the issue, me.
And the fact is, it was not just me.
Next time, why not research that which you are ignorant of and THEN come to the public with questions and demands? Is that really such shitty advice?

[Luminous Animal]

74. I appreciate you letting me know..

[DinahMoeHum]

14. I've stayed away from all the threads concerning this issue.

It's just been too hard for me to wrap my brain around it right now, and I have had better things to do than unwittingly get into a pissing contest with fellow DUers here.

It's not that I don't give a shit. It's just that until I have more and better information to process, and until people's heated emotions have subsided a bit, I'm withholding my 2 cents on this matter.

[GP6971]

20. You're not alone.

Very emotional issue here.

[Ms. Toad]

19. The heat has been largely directed at individuals

who insist:

• Manning is a man until surgery
  
• Refusing to honor an expressed preference for female pronouns is fine because Manning is "scum"
  
• Pronouns are trivial, and I referring to Manning as he doesn't hurt anyone
  
• Refusing to honor preferred pronouns is not nearly as bad as using a racial epithet against someone we don't like (so stop whining about not getting a magic pony)
  
• Who use trivializing language ("perceived" gender, he/she, it)
  
• This is just a tactic to get out of the
  
  Or who are worse.
  
  Personally - if it is clear that someone is asking questions in order to learn, or was not aware of the request by Manning - I respond in with an explanation and a gentle request.
  
  Even if it is someone in the top list, I try to educate, but if it is clear it is deliberate (by repetition, or tone) I also alert.
  

[GP6971]

23. Very well said. n/t

[leftstreet]

27. +1

It comes as no surprise that many people don't understand transgender issues

What's surprising is finding pockets of people here who (with barely concealed sneers) refuse to acknowledge Manning's stated preferences

WTF difference could it possibly make?

[enigmatic]

29. This. n/t

[Zorra]

44. Yes. nt

[backscatter712]

100. This.

I'm willing to spend a little time educating, but the instant I see that a person is being willfully obtuse, I lose patience with educating, and start demanding pizzas be served.

Zero tolerance for willful assholes.

[Hydra]

21. I think a lot of us had to adjust to the news.

I wasn't exactly surprised due to the Military's leak of Chelsea's psych stuff and the picture, so I didn't feel a lot of difficulty in accepting Manning's request.

I doubt we would have been hard on you, because there was a vast difference that day between "What's going on? I don't follow this." actions and what I heard at work- coworkers making prison rape jokes about it as I was walking in the door.

I posted earlier this week that the heart of DU is ahead of the curve. How our community grew with this event proved it in my mind.

The Democratic leaders may ignore us, but if they do, it's a shame- we're the best of what the party has to offer.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. JackBeck linked to an excellent essay on HuffPost

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/transphobes_b_3780432.html

and like all the other threads on this topic, it attracted some posters who weren't willing to listen. It's been that way since Manning's announcement. If some DUers are a bit frustrated by this behavior, I don't blame them for biting off heads.

On a more positive note, I've seen many DUers post that they finally DO understand.

[aquart]

32. My sympathies on the moving.

Been here since April, still haven't unpacked it all.

[gollygee]

34. It's understandable to not get it, learn, and adapt

But it isn't OK to get into a conversation and learn the other side, and still insist that she is a "he" and you're going to call her a "he" no matter how she feels about it, and no matter what kind of culture that behavior causes for transgender people. There is a difference between simple ignorance and willful ignorance. One is understandable and the other is not.

[Curmudgeoness]

35. You missed nothing worthwhile.

I think I would have preferred the work of moving to the agony of watching DU implode.

[Politicub]

38. In a heteronormative world....

that's not surprising.

[Luminous Animal]

43. When you go to the "why should I pay" argument, you are in right wing land...

When you ask question why you should pay for a prisoner to be happy... you are in revenge bible thumping land. (Here is a hint... happy prisoners result in healthy citizens - look it up.)

When you, a reporter, can't take the time to educate yourself before posing a question, you are just another galumphing clueless American.

[leftstreet]

48. Good point. Similar to 'why should I pay for their cable tv?'

It never ends well because the obvious is overlooked: confinement and loss of access to family, friends, neighbors, work, daily activities, independence, pets, whatever makes a person happy IS THE PUNISHMENT

Harrumphing about what 'niceties' prisoners might get is a losing argument

[one_voice]

52. I'm am going to...

strongly disagree here:

When you ask question why you should pay for a prisoner to be happy... you are in revenge bible thumping land.

When I say this understand I'm not referring to Pvt. Manning. Okay?

But, not just no, but a big HELL NO. I don't give a flying rat's ass if a prisoner that's serving time for child molesting is freakin' happy. As long as they get the required health care, meals, psychological/mental care (when needed) and no human rights are being violated--I hope the bastard is as unhappy as a person can be.

I should give a shit if Jerry Sandusky is happy? Not happening. He better figure out way to make himself happy. Watch Oprah or something.

I feel that way about all violent criminals--especially repeat offenders.

I will not apologize for that.

I'll worry about making a homeless person, an abused woman, or someone else happy.

[Luminous Animal]

70. Yeah. Because most prisoners are child molesters. Snort. Try again.

That should be the standard for rehabilitation. That there mighte a child molester, amongst the vast majority who are not, who is happy.

[one_voice]

76. Don't choke on your snorting...

I mentioned a specific type of prisoner...

I feel that way about all violent criminals--especially repeat offenders.

Maybe YOU should try again.


edited to add: I stand by my statement. Prison is a punishment not a summer camp. They should have every one one of their needs met, be treated humanely and with respect, if that makes them the good. Outside that....

Humanely to me includes, books and tv (basic channels) I believe they should be able to keep up with what's going in the world and reading is learning and I'm always for education.

[Luminous Animal]

77. Happy prisoners are less inclined to repeat offending. Snort again.

Use that big brain of yours and look it up.

[one_voice]

79. Updated my post...

and again don't choke on your snorting.

Don't need look it up. I'm good with what I know.

You're not capable of having a conversation, just throwing insults.

So, enjoy your snorting.

Cheers.

[Luminous Animal]

81. Updating after the fact is the bomb. I love pre-arguments. It makes one look

so good.

[one_voice]

83. I was updating as you posted...

I didn't see your comment until AFTER I edited.

I don't need to updated a post to make me look good, I do that all by myself.

You apparently need to insult to make yourself feel better. Is that what makes you happy

You're impossible to talk to. I've tried before and you were the same way.

I'm done now.

edited...you're not worth a possible hidden post.

[backscatter712]

101. Prisons have the duty to provide medical care to prisoners.

Hormone therapy and surgery are frequently absolutely necessary for the mental health of transgender people.

If you're for depriving prisoners of medical care necessary to protect their physical and mental health, you're in Nazi-land, bucko.

FIGURE IT OUT!

[one_voice]

103. I said I wanted...

I prisoners to get medical/mental health care they needed. If that includes hormone therapy & surgery (that's a doctor's decision) then that's what they get.

Here's what I said:

As long as they get the required health care, meals, psychological/mental care (when needed) and no human rights are being violated-

I specifically said I wasn't referring to the Manning case.

When I say this understand I'm not referring to Pvt. Manning. Okay?

Being cared for medically does not always equate to being happy. Being on anti-depressants means you're not depressed not necessarily happy.

I will repeat, prison is not summer camp. I will not apologize for not wanting a bonfire with s'mores to keep fucking violent offenders happy.

I will also repeat, I don't want them treated inhumanely they are human beings.

So please tell me, exactly what is it YOU think I need to figure out?

[dsc]

47. I can give you the question about paying for the surgery

but not the calling her, him. I don't think it takes a phd in liberal causes to know that you call people by the pronouns they wish to be called by. I will give you that the surgery is expensive and can be viewed as not completely necessary to health on a cursory look. If the sentence were a short one, I could see a case for giving her hormones but going no further, but given that this sentence is likely not to be short, I think the government should pony up.

[madrchsod]

54. well said....

yup...i stayed away as much as possible.

[trumad]

57. In the old days here on DU you could ask a question to educate yourself...

And get thoughtful answers. Today.... we have a few...and I mean just a few, who are perfect in every way.

They actually get off on their. ....errrrr perfectness and can't wait to hit their keyboard's to let everyone know how wonderful they are.

Personally I think they're full of shit.

[Liberal Veteran]

62. ^^^^This. - nt

[kestrel91316]

75. + 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

I have, as a result, decided to completely withhold my shameful, disgusting, imperfect opinions from all LBGT issues on DU (but not IRL) from now on.

You folks won't have to worry about my cooties getting all over your threads. Find your recs and supportive comments elsewhere.

[Vanje]

78. Over the top

Like .....once I was insulted by a female poster on DU, so now I will not post support for feminist point of view on DU.

Sounds kinda dumb doesnt it.....unless my support for feminism was pretty damned slim any way.

[kestrel91316]

90. Nope. The response from MANY LGBTs here was over the top.

So I'm just not going to risk offending anyone any more. It's not worth it.

I will continue to enthusiastically support LGBT rights elsewhere. I will even repost LGBT rights stuff on FB like I have for years. But I am done talking to the community as a whole here and piling my support onto threads.

You've spit on a good friend for a trivial error that hurt no one here. The only person I could conceivably have offended is Ms. Manning. And I am dead certain she isn't reading DU.

[Vanje]

93. I dont think ALL of DU's LGBTs

spit on you. I, certainly did not.

Thanks for spitting back on every one of us (DU's many LGBT members).
I don't think thats what a "good friend" does.


Chelsea Manning probably doesn't read DU, but we do have transgender members...or at least we did before this week.

[Niceguy1]

97. I find their all or nothing

Demands to be a because t over the top. Allnor nothi g as in if you don't suppkrt everything they believe in as a LGBT you are phobic

[Bluenorthwest]

105. Claiming that all members of a minority group 'spit at you' because some criticized you is uncool.

Friends do not make support of that which is the right thing dependent on the actions of every member of some minority group.
I never spit on you, never said a cross word to you. I saw a post you self deleted that seemed to be the right thing, I have no idea what it said, you had deleted it. So to blame all of us for the actions of some of us is an interesting choice, but not a very righteous choice.
Your reaction to criticism is very over the top, you have no real reason to carry on like this against individual humans who did you no wrong. 'They are like the ones who wronged me' is a shitty way to choose off.

[Ms. Toad]

84. That's a little disingenous,

Considering the question thread you posted on Friday and the (for the most part) thoughtful answers you received. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023519261

Not to mention the thoughtful responses received in response to other questions which were sincere.

[trumad]

98. You got me wrong...

I purposely said a few--- just a few....

Maybe it sounded like a broad brush---not meant to... I just can't stand the holier than thous who chime in with the old--- oh---you should be more enlightened shit---you know---like me.

[Ms. Toad]

99. The intro sounded like DU is so different

we can't ask questions anymore for fear of getting jumped on. And your thread was at least as favorably received as any I can remember of the subject - and I've been here lurking or posting since the early 2000s.

[Vanje]

87. Thats awfully unfair

The great majority of responses to your OP were open and helpful.

I was glad you posted it. I thought it led to a good discussion.

I hope you werent too emotionally damaged by the exchanges.

[steve2470]

89. trumad, I've learned you can ask what time it is.....

Pretty simple (although unnecessary) question, yes ?

You will get at least one person excoriating you for not looking at the fucking clock or watch or sundial or take your pick.

What's so hard about trash thread or just fucking ignoring the thread ?

Some people here are either vicious trolls or just unbelievably hostile.



Ok I'm better now.

[Nye Bevan]

64. It's great to see people being educated on this topic. (nt)

[steve2470]

66. fwiw the honestly ignorant and open-minded here were treated well, on balance

Last edited Mon Aug 26, 2013, 12:26 AM - Edit history (1)

That's what I saw. There are always people quick to be nasty, no matter what the issue.

The argumentative/rigid/"he still has all his plumbing"/"he's still legally known as Bradley" people were the ones who got the worst treatment. Before anyone jumps on me, I'm only saying "he", "his" and "Bradley" to illustrate their arguments. To me, Chelsea and she are the proper terms. What's so hard about that ? To be honest, I think we had a very massive troll infestation during this whole brouhaha.

You may despise what Chelsea Manning did and think she deserves 35 years in Leavenworth, but at least give her the simple human dignity of referring to her as female and as Chelsea. From what I'm seeing, it's a permanent change.

For the curious, this gives you information on Gender Dysphoria.

This link has a broader overview for the curious.

[Vanje]

82. I agree

I think , on the whole, that DUers were open to suggestions about the name change and pronoun problem.
Transgender issues are unfamiliar to most people.
Most DUers are pleased to have the Manning issue as a learning point, and have been gracious and open-minded.


Some, only a few, have been repeatedly and outspokenly opposed to recognizing and respecting a trans-person's gender identity.

Chelsea Manning doesn't read DU.
But we have trans-gender members here......(or at least we used to! ), who read these awful posts.

[Ms. Toad]

85. The problem with that theory (troll infestation)

Is that many of the worst offenders are long term DU members. There may also have been trolls - but for the most part they were dispatched very quickly by MIRT or MIRT by jury hide.

[steve2470]

86. some of the people were long-termers, true nt

[backscatter712]

110. This is why I don't put much value in post counts

The worst trolls (or psy-ops personas) take the trouble to build high post counts and otherwise build credibility before they start shit-stirring here.

[kestrel91316]

67. I've been found to be guilty of crimes against humanity for ONE time

using "s/he" within about 2 hours of the announcement about her name change because I was not entirely clear what the protocol was, given that she was still legally male and the media hadn't changed to "she". And I deleted the post when I saw it caused a kerfuffle.

The fact that I have been a LGBT rights fanatic for decades in IRL and here since forever counts for absolutely nothing. I am now persona non grata with the LGBTs on DU.

So be glad you were gone. And watch your step.

[steve2470]

73. sorry you were jumped on so quickly

You've always impressed me as a person of good will and you love animals. You're good with me.

[kestrel91316]

88. Thank you. You guys KNOW you have a friend in me.

This vicious mob attack crap has simply got to stop. It drives away friends indiscriminantly for no good reason.

[steve2470]

91. imho (and sorry Skinner).....

The grand experiment in jury trials is a failure. I think we have a huge daily influx of trolls (and some long-time covert ones) and DU has descended into the online version of Lord of the Flies, especially in GD. DU is still overall worth it to me.

However, if it gets much worse, I'm gone. I've been here 9 years, but it's getting unnecessarily vicious in GD.

[kestrel91316]

94. I agree. This place has a large population of trolls who are here only to

stir up shit and get DUers at each others' throats. And some of them have very high post counts.

[steve2470]

95. The overall Alexa traffic count has been going down for 2 years now (overall)

Unless I'm reading the stats wrong, to me that's a wake up call.

I don't come here to be insulted/abused/castigated. Disagreement, sure. Education, sure.

But to be vilified for normal human frailties ? Fuck no. I can walk out my front door for that. The internet is a crass and mean place, but can't DU be somewhat of an oasis from that ? Note I said "somewhat".

The old mod system was flawed to be sure, but this is inviting trolls to come in here and take their best shot at us. I'm sure the RW, Republicans and the trolls are laughing their ass off at what they accomplish here.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/democraticunderground.com

[mwooldri]

71. Mr. Pitt, thank you.

I believe that you speak for many people here, and I include myself too. Certain people have been violently hostile whenever someone mixes up a gender - maybe somewhat similar to Grammar Nazis perhaps?

In any case, I hope your move was relatively smooth and all is good.

[pnwest]

92. I don't think Chelsea / Bradley gives a rat's ass what any of us here on DU

call her... Bradley, Chelsea, him, her or late for dinner. I'd bet the farm not a one of the people who've clogged up this site with this stupid argument this week have a personal relationship with Ms. Manning, and the occasion of having to address her one way or the other is never even going to happen. This has been the stupidest flame war I've seen on ANY issue here to date.

None of you know her, and it's utterly immaterial what you call her. She's never going to know how you referred to her at all. What a fucking waste of time this topic has been.

[Th1onein]

96. I think that this war started out as a veiled attack against another poster.

It's a shame that DU would be used in that way.

[enlightenment]

104. As has been said many times, Will,

The bigotry displayed on DU has come in two forms - the overt and the sly. If you had watched this unfold, you would have seen that initially, people DID try to educate.

There were those that were truly ignorant and they learned, at least something - because admittedly this is not a subject that lends itself to simple explanations - and realized that their statements were inappropriate. And they stopped doing it. Many learned by reading responses to other posters and admitted that they might have made hurtful comments except for the "lessons" they read before they posted.

There were those that were overtly hostile; theirs was not ignorance as much as it was hatred. Some expressed the view that because they despised what Manning did, they were justified in attacking her decision to openly transition. Some simply despised the idea that transgendered individuals exist.
Even with the overt, some early attempts to educate took place - but those posters had no desire to learn or grow. They were - and are, apparently - comfortable in their hatred . . . and they were easy to spot. But they fed the frustration and anger of those trying to educate.

That said, the problem really grew not because of the ignorant or the overtly hateful but because of the sly - and the failure of the jury system to address what was happening (and I'm not blaming the jury system; just making the comment of what happened).
The sly were as hateful as the overt - but they couched their comments in "honest" dialogue. An initial post might include repeated references to Manning as a male; when reminded that simple courtesy demanded she be addressed in the feminine, the response would shift slightly - but the reference would still be male. When reminded again, the response would shift . . . and so on and so on. Or there would be drawn out posts relating that Manning was not male until surgery was complete - or that Manning must be referred to as male because the military doesn't recognize transgendered individuals - or that all the court documents refer to Manning as male.
These sly posters were not one-offs. They repeated their comments over and over again; sometimes in the same thread, sometimes in different threads - but they never shifted their position or acknowledged those that tried to educate them.
Their posts were never overt, but they were filled with pure malice - and as juries allowed them to stand because they couldn't put a finger on what they had done and they couldn't see the pattern of abuse, those who had started the day teaching lost patience - and that's when accusations and anger began to grow. Attempts at education continued though - and still do.

Part of the problem was that it happened so fast, Will. It wasn't a drawn out process of days - it happened in hours because it seemed that every other OP referred to Chelsea's decision. So what might appear to be a lack of tolerance for ignorance was really the rapid, cumulative effect of a pile on by the ignorant, the overt, and the sly. Especially the sly.

My personal perspective is that you only need to know one thing - that it is simple courtesy to the trans* community to respect the preference of name and pronoun. If someone wants to understand more, there is a whole Internet full of information and they can find it - or even ask for links.

Will, I know you're not saying that those who are educating should patiently repeat their lessons over and over again - but you are certainly implying it. Suggesting that the only appropriate response to every new poster is to offer lessons that were probably related higher in the thread isn't really fair, is it?

I teach college, and every class day I have students who consistently wander in 10 or 15 minutes late (regardless of penalty). Should I repeat what I've been saying before they came in? Should I suggest they stay a few minutes after class so I can repeat what I said? How much of it is my responsibility and how much is theirs?

I'll tell you - unless they have told me in advance that they are going to be late, I don't believe I have any responsibility to catch them up.

In the first few hours of this mess, a lot of leeway was given - but after awhile, it was apparent that what looked like nastiness WAS nastiness and not honest ignorance. I've seen your caution a number of times in the last two days, too - but built into that caution is something of a belief that those who are defending trans* people are deliberately ignoring the difference between ignorance and malice and reflexively reacting to every comment.

We're not - but what we are saying is that it's simple and it's easy, especially on a message board. If you know - or have been told - that it is not appropriate to refer to Chelsea Manning as "he" or "Bradley", then you don't do it. DU allows ample time to write, it allows edit. There is no excuse to "slip" on a message board and those who repeatedly make that "mistake" are proving malice, not ignorance.

[backscatter712]

113. I couldn't have said it better myself.

There were some people, like William Pitt, and trumad, who were uninformed, but willing to learn. I can appreciate that.

But there were the willfully obtuse, or as you say, the sly trolls, who continued to disrespect the GLBTQ community after educated otherwise. For them, my patience has limits, and I sent a lot of TOS-checked alerts.

[Laughing Mirror]

108. Chelsea Manning's statement, since you brought it up

Subject: The Next Stage of My Life

I want to thank everybody who has supported me over the last three years. Throughout this long ordeal, your letters of support and encouragement have helped keep me strong. I am forever indebted to those who wrote to me, made a donation to my defense fund, or came to watch a portion of the trial. I would especially like to thank Courage to Resist and the Bradley Manning Support Network for their tireless efforts in raising awareness for my case and providing for my legal representation.

As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility). I look forward to receiving letters from supporters and having the opportunity to write back.

Thank you,

Chelsea E. Manning

[Baitball Blogger]

111. I hear everyone moves in August or September in Boston.

What a nightmare. My daughter is already looking for a new place to live for a September move...next year.