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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKerry's Syria Statement: Right Out Of The Playbook. Here's The Transcript.
This was classic stuff. It was all about emotional manipulation. It was thin on facts. The tone was a duplicate of the stuff we heard prior to Iraq. We don't know who perpetrated the chemical attack, but Kerry says it was absolutely the Assad regime. Makes more sense to me that it was the rebels.Assad has clearly been winning. The rebels have been desperate for outside intervention against the Assad regime. How does Assad benefit from using chemical weapons? Of course we don't know, but you have to at least consider the possibility that the rebels were the ones who used the chemical weapons.
What we saw in Syria last week should shock the conscience of the world. It defies any code of morality. Let me be clear. The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by chemical weapons is a moral obscenity. By any standard, it is inexcusable. And despite the excuses and equivocations that some have manufactured, it is undeniable.
The meaning of this attack goes beyond the conflict on Syria itself. And that conflict has already brought so much terrible suffering. This is about the large-scale indiscriminate use of weapons that the civilized world long ago decided must never be used at all, a conviction shared even by countries that agree on little else.
There is a clear reason that the world has banned entirely the use of chemical weapons. There is a reason the international community has set a clear standard and why many countries have taken major steps to eradicate these weapons. There is a reason why President Obama has made it such a priority to stop the proliferation of these weapons, and lock them down where they do exist. There is a reason why President Obama has made clear to the Assad regime that this international norm cannot be violated without consequences. And there is a reason why no matter what you believe about Syria, all peoples and all nations who believe in the cause of our common humanity must stand up to assure that there is accountability for the use of chemical weapons so that it never happens again.
Last night, after speaking with foreign ministers from around the world about the gravity of this situation, I went back and I watched the videos -- the videos that anybody can watch in the social media, and I watched them one more gut-wrenching time. It is really hard to express in words the the human suffering that they lay out before us.
As a father, I cant get the image out of my head of a man who held up his dead child, wailing while chaos swirled around him, the images of entire families dead in their beds without a drop of blood or even a visible wound, bodies contorting in spasms, human suffering that we can never ignore or forget. Anyone who could claim that an attack of this staggering scale could be contrived or fabricated needs to check their conscience and their own moral compass.
<snip>
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/world/middleeast/text-of-kerrys-statement-on-chemical-weapons-in-syria.html?_r=0
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)(the excerpt tag is really good for that)
blazeKing
(329 posts)They've wanted Syria for a long time so they're sending the al Qaeda forces in along with western intelligence. Syria is on the war roadmap to Iran. Obama is surrounded by Hillary, Biden, Kerry..all who voted for war, to let bush have war. He is surrounded by PNAC/CFR people and by the MIC that wants war always. And it looks like he'll grant their wishes.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The official voice of the US Government can NOT be trusted.
They have poisoned that well so many times over the last 60 years that only a fool would drink for it now.
Same Shit
Different Bag
They are evil dictators who kill their own people !
If you're not FOR the WAR in
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
[size=3] Syria,[/font]
you're WITH
The Communists
AlQaeda
The Terrorists
Saddam
Qaddafi
[font size=3] Assad
Terror! Terror! Terror!
Evil Dictators! Booga...Booga
USA....USA...USA
[/font]
MisterP
(23,730 posts)cry baby
(6,682 posts)from slaughter in Rwanda? I was pissed that we made excuses not to help those people.
Do you disbelieve the story of these innocents in Syria?
Edited for clarity
Catherina
(35,568 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)cry baby
(6,682 posts)Do you believe we should have gone to war with Iraq, then? I do not...and I don't believe we should go to war in Syria, either.
I personally believe we should have some covert way of dealing with these murdering monsters.
How do you feel about how we were so hands off in Rwanda?
Catherina
(35,568 posts)My feelings are complex. I believe the US and the old Colonial powers should spend more time taking care of our own people and less time stirring up other nations. I don't have a problem with sending in no-strings humanitarian aid but we're always eying resources and backing factions.
The situation in Rwanda traces back to Belgium occupation.
You can sum up my beliefs as "Yankee Stay Home" and "Yankee Go Home". When it comes to covert ways of murdering monsters, I'll agree with that only if we start with ours first, and our allies' monsters first too. Good house-keeping begins at home.
Thanks for your answer.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)It's hard to tell on a message board but I really thank you.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)but I remember how upsetting it was to find out what happened to innocent citizens that were hacked to death by their neighbors. I don't ever want to feel that way again.
I have always trusted John Kerry and admired his wisdom. I think he would have made a good president. I'm just not willing to dismiss what he says today about this genocide.
I also don't believe we need covert action to take out other Americans...we have American ways of doing those things. We just need to get busy about convincing people of every political stripe to do the right, humane things. We need to change hearts, not stop them.
I think we are almost as far apart as you originally thought, but I respect your view, even though I don't agree with it.
Just my two cents. Have a good one, Catherina!
blazeKing
(329 posts)And no one disbelieves that if we had an armed rebellion in America that those armed rebels would be vanquished, civilians be damned.
cali
(114,904 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide
I think that we DON"T FUCKING KNOW it was Assad. I think that it makes more sense that it was the rebels. Why would Assad do this when he was so clearly winning? Who had more to gain by using chemical weapons and blaming it on the other side?
cry baby
(6,682 posts)reusrename
(1,716 posts)My bet is on some Cheney cronies somewhere. They want nuclear confrontation. Mo' money, mo' money.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)I'm just not believing this conspiracy theory.
GeorgeGist
(25,294 posts)cry baby
(6,682 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)They want higher gas prices! Stirring up the Middle east pot every year or so does that!
cali
(114,904 posts)And what do you mean did it to themselves? As far as I understand it, is was civilians who suffered and died in this attack. Though that's another thing we don't really know- who precisely the victims were.
I don't know who did it. That's the point. And no, I don't trust our intelligence community. they fucked us wildly on Iraq. Why should I take what they say as gospel?
cry baby
(6,682 posts)who did this, as many from DU feel. It's certainly fashionable to distrust all things "govt" these days.
And I believe the rebels are fighting in support of the citizenry, so it's not really believable to me that the rebels would mass murder the citizens that they're fighting for.
It's not believable to me that John Kerry and Barack Obama are war hawks.
cali
(114,904 posts)I'm aghast at your comment. simply aghast.
Look, the history of the intelligence agencies is one rife with abuses under republicans and dems alike. Intelligence agencies don't change much from one admin to another and you'd be hard pressed to find any expert who claims any such thing, dear.
It has jackshit to do with fashion and a lot more to do with that I know history and I know how to do research in that field.
by the way, you know nothing about the "rebels" either. EVERY expert has stated that they are comprised of widely divergent groups.
for instance, Jabhat-al-Nusra is connected to Al-Qaeda and has been designated as a terrorist group by the U.S. They are a big piece in this. they've committed many, many documented atrocities. In fact, one thing is definitive: atrocities have been committed by all sides.
You just don't know very much.
And for the record, I don't think they're war hawks either, but I do think they got boxed in by their own "red lines".
blm
(112,920 posts)giving in now without knowing for certain what the situation is? Kerry is far more likely to side with weapon inspectors' analysis than any artificial, gung ho push for war.
cali
(114,904 posts)or read what he said.
I'm sorry, but you are blind when it comes to Kerry. Completely and utterly so.
blm
(112,920 posts)Kerry wouldn't be doing this without it being a last resort.
Can YOU name anyone who did more to PREVENT war with Syria the last 8 years, cali? Try. You sure as hell weren't supporting his efforts to avoid war. You sure as hell weren't defending him when all of establishment DC was mocking him and angry at his interference.
Try doing some research starting back in 2005 and you'll see just ONE person who stuck his neck out and interfered with the war plans - war plans that were being supported by establishment Dems including the Clintons.
You were premature in your finger pointing - you can't admit that you were clueless about what has been going on for the last 8 years in Syria, and you think trying to catch up now based only on recent reports is enough to make you competent enough to attack Kerry.
cali
(114,904 posts)it's not at all shocking.
Do you even grasp the most basic stuff here, blm? Do you know who the different factions are in the rebel opposition? Do you get that Jabhat al Nusra is affiliated with A-Q?
It's disgusting that you think this is all about your idol, John Kerry.
blm
(112,920 posts)if you think this is just about Kerry for me - it's about KNOWING what extraordinary efforts he put into keeping war FROM happening the last 8 years. YOU refuse to acknowledge that war in Syria was close to occurring back in 2005 and that only NE person did the heavy lifting the last 8 years to PREVENT it from happening - the same person you are attacking and blaming and smearing now as if he is cooking the intel books no differently than Bush did to invade Iraq.
If military force is used in Syria, it will be because it is a LAST RESORT, not cooked intel.
You're dug in and reacting childishly.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Too many people are using old paradigms to define new scenarios--it's not apt, certainly.
The attempts here to try to paint Kerry as some kind of Bush-ish warmongering, profiteering type are just absurd. There couldn't possibly be a clearer distinction between Kerry's beliefs and motivations, and those of the Bushies....
cry baby
(6,682 posts)in the same category as the last admin. That is, indeed, willfully foolish.
But, hey...you are certainly entitled to your opinion! I guess that you would agree that I'm entitled to mine...and I feel pretty strongly in standing up against genocide.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)that we should ignore genocide like we did in Rwanda?
cali
(114,904 posts)why not say that Europe has been fucked up for over a thousand years? Or that the world has been fucked up for all of recorded history?
We don't know who did it, but yes, I question intervention even if it's Assad. Will we kill more people than we save? Will we set off a larger regional conflagration? Will Iran become involved? Will H'zbollah attack Israel? What will Iran do? Russia?
I'll tell you one thing that is true: Our intervention in the Middle East is a very unhappy history, from the U.S. deposing Mosaddegh in 1952 to Iraq and beyond. It has led to great instability and horrific violence.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)like that was an excuse to keep us from helping stem that genocide.
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how long things have been fucked up. We fucked up not helping those people in Rwanda. I would hate to feel like another democratic president did nothing to help when presented with a genocidal situation.
War? No. But let's not just wash our hands of the human suffering of Syria.
cali
(114,904 posts)read Dalaire's book.
We don't have to wash our hands of it, but we don't have to intervene militarily either.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)and I would hate for the booosh admin and their lying to keep us from fighting for human rights when human rights are being violated.
Again, war is not an option, but there are miles and miles between war and doing nothing. Thinking out of the box will be necessary, imho.
kardonb
(777 posts)I always feel : let them solve their own problems and hatreds . We cannot save all the world from their foolishness .
cry baby
(6,682 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,294 posts)But it's actually flounder.
Autumn
(44,762 posts)but Kerry says it was absolutely the Assad regime. That's just about the biggest line of horse shit I have ever seen. What the fuck.
MADem
(135,425 posts)So who delivered them? Santa?
blazeKing
(329 posts)Nor that it was delivered by rocket. It's all speculation. You also don't know if western intelligence is helping the al Qaeda rebels have that capability.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They don't have that capability, and why would you think they'd poison themselves? There were rebels IN those neighborhoods, hiding amongst the civilian population.
Many of the rockets are relatively intact, though their noses were buried deep in soil or bitumen, suggesting that they dispersed the chemicals above ground and did not explode on impact.
The affected areas have been bombed repeatedly over the past three days, with Syrian officials announcing they were continuing an advance into the rebel-held east of Damascus, an assault which started around the same time as residents first complained of exposure to a noxious gas.
De Bretton-Gordon said the large amount of nerve gas dropped and the tactics used pointed to Bashar al-Assad's regime being responsible. He said scientists could still be able to determine the nerve agent used.
"Realistically, only the regime has access to that amount of agent," he said. "This appears to have been a very well-planned operation, from the conventional bombardment before to break all the doors and windows to allow the gas to move freely, to the use of 20 or so rockets (to deliver the gas) and then the army following up. It is a textbook operation."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/25/syria-united-nations-west-chemical-weapons-inspectors
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)and the rebels evidently do have sarin and used it in May of this year according to the U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505
furthermore, we don't know the delivery system.
fog of war mean anything at all to you?
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)but are kind of wishywashy about it.
cali
(114,904 posts)to me until you just said it. I meant the off to war playbook. Look, I do think the military/industrial complex is a big factor. Did you know that over the last 4 years, the U.S., by far the largest arms dealer in the world, has doubled its exports of arms?
You can keep dimly parroting PNAC over and over but that's not correct. And it's not analysis or critical thinking either. You don't seem big on either.
blm
(112,920 posts)Apparently many of you were unaware of this push for war in Syria that has been going on since 2005.
Bill Clinton diary entry:
FRIDAY, MARCH 04, 2005
I can't sleep
I cant sleep. I took two sleeping pills. They didnt work. I cant take any more, because Im also using heart medicine. I tried playing internet poker, but I cant focus. Right now there is nothing I can do. I have to wait till after the speech, which is at about lunch time here on the West coast. After that I have the meeting with the former police officer.
There is something I wanted to say a long time ago, but I didnt have the time, because of my visit to Asia.
I would like to offer my deepest condolences to the family of my close friend and former prime minister of Lebanon, Rafiq Hariri. His death was a shock to me. I was horrified. I know exactly who did it and why. More about that later.
I called his family to tell them how shocked I was. I wanted to be present at the funeral, but the secret service vetoed that idea. It wasnt safe, especially not with Hezbollah still armed to the teeth.
Mr. Hariri, lovingly called Mr. Lebanon by his fellow countrymen, was the driving force behind the reconstruction of Lebanon after the civil war. Lately he was also the driving force behind the movement to ask the Syrian government to pull its soldiers and secret service agents out of Lebanon.
Thats the reason the Syrians killed him. If Syria has to pull out of Lebanon, it will be pretty much encircled by enemy states. NATO member Turkey to the north, American troops in Iraq to the East, pro-American Jordan to the south (By the way Syria is occupying a large amount of Jordanian land, which King Abdullah wants back) and Israel to the south west.
The Syrian government killed Rafiq Hariri, because they are afraid that Lebanon would not just be sovereign if they pulled out their forces, but might in time be dominated by another power, be it Israel or the US, which is more likely.
Another reason is strategic depth. The capital of Syria is just a few miles from the border of Lebanon. And also just a few miles away from the Israeli occupied Golan Heights. Which is probably the reason Israel chose to occupy the Golan Heights. Standing on the mountains of the Golan Heights you can see Damascus in the distance. The Syrians know this. Its a great deterrent against any Syrian adventurism.
This is the reason the Syrian government always uses the Hezbollah, a Lebanese group to attack Israel instead of attacking Israel itself.
Aside from a national defense dimension there is also the economic dimension. Syria has a hybrid half communist, half capitalist economic system. Syria is bankrupt and has been ever since the end of the Soviet Union. Without the economic power of Lebanon, Syria will fall apart economically.
Syria is also under economic sanctions by the US. Lebanon isnt, so products Syria needs are bought by Lebanon, then transferred to Syria. There are also one million Syrians working in Lebanon. If they have to go back to Syria, Syria will see a lot of social problems with these unemployed young men.
In other words, without Lebanon, Syria will be boxed in from a military point of view and an economic point of view. Syria without Lebanon would be weak and exposed.
From the Syrians point of view Rafiq Hariri had to die, because he wanted them to leave. And he as a billionaire had the clout to gather international support for this idea. He was the one who asked the US and France to support United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559, which calls upon Syria to leave Lebanon.
Some US commentators say the Hariri murder might have been organized by Syrias old guard without the knowledge of Syrias young, inexperienced president Bashar Assad. This is an old myth dictators create to deflect responsibility.
Go back into history and you will see texts in old Roman books saying, the emperor had raised taxes for instance and the population, who didnt want or dare attack the emperor for his mistake, they would say the emperors underlings had made the mistake without the emperor knowing.
I read books in which Germans, whose family members had been hauled off to concentration camps by the Nazis, said If only Herr Hitler knew about this situation, hed do something about it. Well Herr Hitler knew about it and had actually ordered it.
Its an old trick. The dictator can make mistakes and deflects taking responsibility by giving the impression he isnt his own man and the population can criticize the dictators policies without criticizing him personally.
Bashar Assad ordered the death of Rafiq Hariri. Bashar Assad is in control of Syria.
People in the media should stop making up infantile excuses by saying the real power behind Bashar Assad killed Hariri. Assad is the power.
There are also people, who think you need to give Bashar Assad incentives to behave more responsibly, to make him stop supporting terrorists in Lebanon and Israel. This is nonsense. It took me almost eight years to understand that our way of thinking is not their way of thinking. Their way, I mean a countrys dictators way of thinking.
A dictator wants to stay in power. Thats all. A dictator doesnt care about his population, war, peace. He only wants to stay in power. Everything else is negotiable.
You have to understand the Syrian tyranny. Syrias president Bashar Assad belongs to a minority religious sect called the Alawis, a sub-group of Islam. The top government and army officials belong to the same sect, which only 10 percent of Syria belongs to. In other words 10 percent of the population is lording over the 80 percent of Syrians, who are Sunni Muslims.
Syria can not be a normal country, because that would mean, the minority Alawis giving up power to the vast majority of Sunnis. This is the reason, why Syria has to be always in a state of turmoil if Bashar Assad and his cronies want to stay in power.
As long as there is an external enemy, like Israel occupying the Golan Heights, as long as there is Turkey occupying according to Syria the province of Hatay, the Biblical Antioch, there are external enemies, which focus the majority populations attention on these external enemies.
Were these external enemies to disappear, the majority would have the time to consider their own plight. That is a dictators worst nightmare, because thinking about a problem and thinking about ways to solve the problem are very closely connected. This is the reason a minority government like Bashar Assads Syrian dictatorship needs chaos and turmoil to exist. It doesnt want peace with its neighbors. It doesnt want its people to be prosperous and content and have time to think about their situation.
The only way to stop Syria from being a constant threat and stop them from spreading chaos is to topple the minority government of Bashar Assad and let the majority of Syrians rule.
President Bush did this in Iraq and now that the majority Shia are in power, Iraq is looking inwards, trying to make the lives of its people better. That is what democracies do, they look inward instead of threatening their neighbors, the United States or Israel or the oil supply and with that the world economy. Majority rule means peace. Minority rule, like Bashar Assads dictatorship means chaos, terrorism and war.
POSTED BY BILL CLINTON AT 7:43 AM
cali
(114,904 posts)so what?
It appears to me that Obama boxed himself in with the clear red line rhetoric.
blm
(112,920 posts)and the criticisms from everyone, including a blistering critique from Clinton last June. I highly doubt he's putting the push for war ahead of whatever the UN weapon inspectors will have to say.
But, back to the push for war - Many here at DU don't remember back in 2005 when we almost ended up in Syria, and but for the Downing Street Memos and there proof that Bush lied us into invading Iraq, no countries were eager to join him.
Bill Clinton diary entry:
FRIDAY, MARCH 04, 2005
I can't sleep
I cant sleep. I took two sleeping pills. They didnt work. I cant take any more, because Im also using heart medicine. I tried playing internet poker, but I cant focus. Right now there is nothing I can do. I have to wait till after the speech, which is at about lunch time here on the West coast. After that I have the meeting with the former police officer.
There is something I wanted to say a long time ago, but I didnt have the time, because of my visit to Asia.
I would like to offer my deepest condolences to the family of my close friend and former prime minister of Lebanon, Rafiq Hariri. His death was a shock to me. I was horrified. I know exactly who did it and why. More about that later.
I called his family to tell them how shocked I was. I wanted to be present at the funeral, but the secret service vetoed that idea. It wasnt safe, especially not with Hezbollah still armed to the teeth.
Mr. Hariri, lovingly called Mr. Lebanon by his fellow countrymen, was the driving force behind the reconstruction of Lebanon after the civil war. Lately he was also the driving force behind the movement to ask the Syrian government to pull its soldiers and secret service agents out of Lebanon.
Thats the reason the Syrians killed him. If Syria has to pull out of Lebanon, it will be pretty much encircled by enemy states. NATO member Turkey to the north, American troops in Iraq to the East, pro-American Jordan to the south (By the way Syria is occupying a large amount of Jordanian land, which King Abdullah wants back) and Israel to the south west.
The Syrian government killed Rafiq Hariri, because they are afraid that Lebanon would not just be sovereign if they pulled out their forces, but might in time be dominated by another power, be it Israel or the US, which is more likely.
Another reason is strategic depth. The capital of Syria is just a few miles from the border of Lebanon. And also just a few miles away from the Israeli occupied Golan Heights. Which is probably the reason Israel chose to occupy the Golan Heights. Standing on the mountains of the Golan Heights you can see Damascus in the distance. The Syrians know this. Its a great deterrent against any Syrian adventurism.
This is the reason the Syrian government always uses the Hezbollah, a Lebanese group to attack Israel instead of attacking Israel itself.
Aside from a national defense dimension there is also the economic dimension. Syria has a hybrid half communist, half capitalist economic system. Syria is bankrupt and has been ever since the end of the Soviet Union. Without the economic power of Lebanon, Syria will fall apart economically.
Syria is also under economic sanctions by the US. Lebanon isnt, so products Syria needs are bought by Lebanon, then transferred to Syria. There are also one million Syrians working in Lebanon. If they have to go back to Syria, Syria will see a lot of social problems with these unemployed young men.
In other words, without Lebanon, Syria will be boxed in from a military point of view and an economic point of view. Syria without Lebanon would be weak and exposed.
From the Syrians point of view Rafiq Hariri had to die, because he wanted them to leave. And he as a billionaire had the clout to gather international support for this idea. He was the one who asked the US and France to support United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559, which calls upon Syria to leave Lebanon.
Some US commentators say the Hariri murder might have been organized by Syrias old guard without the knowledge of Syrias young, inexperienced president Bashar Assad. This is an old myth dictators create to deflect responsibility.
Go back into history and you will see texts in old Roman books saying, the emperor had raised taxes for instance and the population, who didnt want or dare attack the emperor for his mistake, they would say the emperors underlings had made the mistake without the emperor knowing.
I read books in which Germans, whose family members had been hauled off to concentration camps by the Nazis, said If only Herr Hitler knew about this situation, hed do something about it. Well Herr Hitler knew about it and had actually ordered it.
Its an old trick. The dictator can make mistakes and deflects taking responsibility by giving the impression he isnt his own man and the population can criticize the dictators policies without criticizing him personally.
Bashar Assad ordered the death of Rafiq Hariri. Bashar Assad is in control of Syria.
People in the media should stop making up infantile excuses by saying the real power behind Bashar Assad killed Hariri. Assad is the power.
There are also people, who think you need to give Bashar Assad incentives to behave more responsibly, to make him stop supporting terrorists in Lebanon and Israel. This is nonsense. It took me almost eight years to understand that our way of thinking is not their way of thinking. Their way, I mean a countrys dictators way of thinking.
A dictator wants to stay in power. Thats all. A dictator doesnt care about his population, war, peace. He only wants to stay in power. Everything else is negotiable.
You have to understand the Syrian tyranny. Syrias president Bashar Assad belongs to a minority religious sect called the Alawis, a sub-group of Islam. The top government and army officials belong to the same sect, which only 10 percent of Syria belongs to. In other words 10 percent of the population is lording over the 80 percent of Syrians, who are Sunni Muslims.
Syria can not be a normal country, because that would mean, the minority Alawis giving up power to the vast majority of Sunnis. This is the reason, why Syria has to be always in a state of turmoil if Bashar Assad and his cronies want to stay in power.
As long as there is an external enemy, like Israel occupying the Golan Heights, as long as there is Turkey occupying according to Syria the province of Hatay, the Biblical Antioch, there are external enemies, which focus the majority populations attention on these external enemies.
Were these external enemies to disappear, the majority would have the time to consider their own plight. That is a dictators worst nightmare, because thinking about a problem and thinking about ways to solve the problem are very closely connected. This is the reason a minority government like Bashar Assads Syrian dictatorship needs chaos and turmoil to exist. It doesnt want peace with its neighbors. It doesnt want its people to be prosperous and content and have time to think about their situation.
The only way to stop Syria from being a constant threat and stop them from spreading chaos is to topple the minority government of Bashar Assad and let the majority of Syrians rule.
President Bush did this in Iraq and now that the majority Shia are in power, Iraq is looking inwards, trying to make the lives of its people better. That is what democracies do, they look inward instead of threatening their neighbors, the United States or Israel or the oil supply and with that the world economy. Majority rule means peace. Minority rule, like Bashar Assads dictatorship means chaos, terrorism and war.
POSTED BY BILL CLINTON AT 7:43 AM
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's a dispersant warhead, as opposed to an explosive one. They were launched in concert with explosive weaponry to break windows to circulate the gas through apartments and kill the sleeping victims in their beds. The pieces of them were slammed into the ground, with residue remaining on them. All that shelling didn't destroy them.
I am not about to throw down and deny that the rebels could NEVER have used CWs, or never behaved brutally (I am not "rooting" for the rebels--that civil war is Syria's to fight)-- of course it's entirely possible, they aren't saints in this equation (two wrongs, and all that)--but I invite your attention to the link you provided as "proof." The word "suspicion" is about as good as that investigator could get and the chairman walked back that assertion in June. And note that Ms. del Ponte didn't say a WORD about dead people. In this recent incident, they were lined up like fallen trees as far as the eye could see and there is video evidence of that.
http://www.ohchr.org/RU/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=13405&LangID=E
This whole "minutes" is an interesting read--even Venezuela calls Mrs. del Ponte a flake, and there are thirteen mentions by a variety of nations re: use of chemical weapons in the conflict.
The source for that assertion is a bit of a bullshitter, you see--and the rebels vociferously denied her claim:
Ms. del Ponte, who in 1999 was appointed to head the U.N. was crimes tribunals for Yugoslavia and Rwanda, has sometimes been a controversial figure. She was removed from her Rwanda post by the U.N. Security Council in 2003, but she continued as the chief prosecutor for the Yugoslav tribunal until 2008.
Ms. del Ponte, a former Swiss prosecutor and attorney general, told Swiss TV: "Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals. According to their report of last week, which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated."
She gave no further details, the BBC said.
.....
Rebel Free Syrian Army spokesman Louay Almokdad denied that rebels had use chemical weapons.
"In any case, we don't have the mechanism to launch these kinds of weapons, which would need missiles that can carry chemical warheads, and we in the FSA do not possess these kind of capabilities," Mr. Almokdad told CNN.
http://www.aina.org/news/20130826131925.htm
The rebels do not have the capability to manufacture CW in bulk. And you need LOTS of CW to kill a thousand people at a crack, which is what al-Assad did the other day in that neighborhood.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)So the army moved the chemical, moved the missiles, set up the delivery system, fill the rockets, fire them and kill over a thousand people with 20 rockets?
Sarin is heavier then air so it would fall to the lowest part of the topography, you also need to come into a decent amount of it for it to kill you, if not you just get sick and it is a short lived threat so it's lethality is quickly diminished.
CDC page about Sarin Gas:
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/basics/facts.asp
And they did this all right when the UN inspectors where on the ground.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The gas floats down over the neighborhood, which has already been pocked by conventional ordnance. People die in their beds. Those that don't die, but feel ill, and run downstairs to head for medical help, walk through that "low lying" sarin and die from that.
We aren't talking about homes on one acre lots, we're talking dense apartment buildings, many with broken windows.
The UN inspectors were not there for the purpose of investigating this issue. They were there on a scheduled visit. They were also constrained from going anywhere until the UN SG's envoy read the government the riot act. It's not like they had the ability to move freely. Even at that, they got shot at on their way to the neighborhood where the attack took place.
totodeinhere
(13,037 posts)weapons on a few people. He may be evil but he's not stupid. Something is fishy here.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Also, many of these teams, particularly the ones that are on pre-arranged visits (which these guys were) don't kill themselves doing their job.
Everyone is so busy dithering along the lines of "Criticizing and sanctioning al-Assad means that you support the opposition" but that's not necessarily the case. All it means is that there's an objection to the use of chemical weapons to kill thousands. I think plenty of people think "They're ALL assholes!!!" but the biggest losers are the ones who decide to poison people--we just can't have that.
Significantly, this attack was a bit more successful than I think al-Assad's generals thought it would be--probably due to all the softening up via conventional means to put holes in buildings so that the poison circulated more readily. And they just might have gotten lucky with the wind and their aim.
They weren't planning on letting the UN team go to that neighborhood, but the Secretary General sent an envoy to Syria to lay down the law (as it were). It's the biggest finger wag he could deliver short of going there himself. Even at that, al Assad stalled them for as long as he could, hoping that the evidence would degrade. He didn't count on those Doctors w/o Borders collecting all that physical evidence, perhaps, and he didn't realize that so many people would be Johnny on the Spot with their video phones.
cali
(114,904 posts)of the worst kind.
MADem
(135,425 posts)blm
(112,920 posts)link for that?
The UN inspectors who did NOT find reason for Bush to invade Iraq are in Syria now. We don't know what they are reporting back, yet. It's likely that Obama and Kerry will have heard their discoveries before we do.
Autumn
(44,762 posts)and then the politicians can start in on assigning blame.
MADem
(135,425 posts)and the remains of rockets containing neurotoxins that were deployed while the Syrian army shelled the shit out of those neighborhoods.
The shelling breaks the windows so the gas kills the innocents in their beds.
Autumn
(44,762 posts)Response to MADem (Reply #56)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This evidence is overwhelming. The bodies stacked like cordwood is the first clue.
Response to MADem (Reply #72)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
MADem
(135,425 posts)See the blue "UN" helmet? They are the ones gathering the evidence, collecting the eyewitness statements, getting the biological samples from the doctors...and then there's the dead.
Response to MADem (Reply #121)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
MADem
(135,425 posts)totodeinhere
(13,037 posts)of the Balkans. So NATO had to pick up the ball since the UN would not. Perhaps we will see a repeat of that but I hope not. Lets save the billions we would spend on a new war and spend it here at home instead. Even if we don't put boots on the ground a prolonged bombing campaign would cost billions and of course the good old USA would be left with picking up most of the tab.
Response to totodeinhere (Reply #136)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
fletchthedubs
(41 posts)Who is still in their bed once the conventional shelling begins? Not trying to downplay the innocent lives lost but your trying to drum up emotions with speculation. Don't buy it from Kerry or you.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Shell, stop for a day or two, people relax, gas.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You are in an apartment that has no basement--what is the "basement" is where the poops go in typical construction over that way, and there's no way to get to it.
Run out to the street and you run the risk of getting bombed, or stay put and cross your fingers and hope for the best?
And of course, if you run down the stairs to the street, that sarin will pool around you....aaaacccck!
There's no justification for use of chemical weapons--that's why the cw treaty protocol is a codicil to the Geneva Conventions.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)13/08/01 5:14 PM ET
Rebels sent a wave of rockets slamming into regime strongholds in the central city of Homs on Thursday, triggering a succession of massive explosions in a weapons depot that killed at least 40 people and wounded dozens, an opposition group and residents said.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08/01/massive-fireball-rises-from-syrian-arms-depot-after-rebel-rockets-score-direct-hit-on-city-recaptured-by-assad/
The Nerve gas attack happen on 21 August 2013..... which is ten days latter.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398691/Syrias-darkest-hour-Hundreds-childrens-bodies-piled-high-nerve-gas-attack-near-Damascus-leaves-1-300-dead.html
Which means either side has the capabilities.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Even the Russians say that the only "rocket" capability that the rebels have are "home made" ones. These sorts of weapons don't have the capability to disperse their poison in the air before slamming into the ground. Rockets that go boom, like in the video you have offered, are explosive--the rockets the Syrian Army used that were full of poison landed and remained somewhat intact, having deployed their contents.
Those rockets loaded with CW were interdispersed with conventional shells (to break windows so the gas would circulate) and those conventional shells were coming from the Syrian Army. The victims of this gas were not just civilians, but opposition fighters as well.
The amount of CW required to kill a thousand people is enormous. There's no way that amount could be manufactured "in tunnels" like the Syrians claimed, which was a change in their original story, which was that they claimed that there were no chemical weapons at all used in their attack on that neighborhood, and then they changed their minds and said that "Oh wait, there were chemical weapons coincidentally deployed while we were shelling the shit out of that neighborhood late at night while everyone slept in a surprise attack--but we didn't do it, those OTHER guys did--they just happened to coordinate their attack with ours!"
It defies credulity to try to insist that al Assad didn't do this. He did do it, and it's not the first time, either.
Did you even read that last link you provided? It doesn't make your case at all.
OnlinePoker
(5,702 posts)It happened at night so nobody could see rockets or bombs falling. Conveniently, the area has been heavily bombed so evidence will be difficult to come by. But if the rebels did do it, I'm sure they would scatter rocket parts from other attacks in the area to point at the Assad regime. I highly doubt the government would use chemical weapons so close to their seat of power in Damascus.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They have eyewitness testimony, they have video evidence, they have hundreds of bodies, they have blood, urine and hair clipping evidence.
Of course they'd use the weapons close to home--they're very personal, you know, particularly when there's not much wind. They dissipate quickly. The military shelled conventionally first to break the windows so the poison would circulate. The amount of CW needed to kill this number of people is not small and could not be manufactured in an ad hoc fashion with home-made materials--this was al Assad's doing.
They needed to stop their enemy from targeting their strategic and tactical assets from that neighborhood. Their enemy was hiding behind women and children, interwoven with families, as is common in that part of the world.
Even Russia and Iran are admitting that chemical weapons were used. It's really not debatable at this point in time.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Professor Ake Sellstrom, the man leading a team of UN inspectors in Syria, is not the first Swede to be given the job of investigating the use chemical weapons in the Middle East.
Following in the footsteps of Hans Blix who searched for Saddam Husseins ultimately non-existent weapons of mass destruction in 2003 Professor Sellstrom has been sent on a fact-finding mission to three locations in Syria.
Professor Sellstrom, who has held several high-profile roles within the UN, was the chief inspector of Unscom, the special commission set up after the Gulf War in the early 1990s to determine whether chemical weapons were used during that conflict..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/profile-professor-ake-sellstrom-un-team-leader-8780975.html
OnlinePoker
(5,702 posts)I just hope this isn't a repeat of the Hans Blix fiasco where Bush essentially said screw it...we're not waiting. I would hope Obama won't listen to the hawks and lets the inspectors do their search and report what they know.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Also briefing right now: White House spokesman Jay Carney.
Q: What would the legal basis be for a military strike?
A: I'm not going to speculate about a decision that hasn't been made.
And when the State Dept Briefing comes out (I'm watching it live now), Harf is running around in circles now and the Press isn't buying this, Right now the press is openly saying "Whatever". The press is calling another part of the briefing "a verbal trapeze act" < that was Matt Lee. There's at least 1 female reporter giving the State Dept hell too.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)but, it's good to know that they are seeming to do their JOB this time...
Catherina
(35,568 posts)11 Bravo
(23,922 posts)it can be established beyond a shadow of a doubt that Assad gassed innocent civilians? I will admit to being all over the map on this; with feelings ranging from "Damn it, we've been the world's cop for long enough" to "A certain responsibility accrues to being the most powerful nation on Earth". I am no-shit conflicted here, and would appreciate a few other viewpoints.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Let a coalition do overflights to protect them, get rebels and Assad regime to suspend hostilities in the Blue Helmet area while they execute their mission.
That would be the optimal solution.
The more likely solution is that they'll hit the caches with a cruise missile, or with aviation weaponry from a stand-off point outside the borders of Syria.
You're either onboard with the Chemical Weapons Treaty protocol, or you're not. I mean, that's really what this is all about. I support upholding the CW Treaty, which is an addendum to the Geneva Accords.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)Your logic suggests the US isn't capable of doing such nefarious things now. I beg to differ. Our track record speaks differently.
Hell we just gave Bush a free pass for Iraq and have been found to be bugging the UN and all of our allies plus our own citizens. I think we are more than capable of nefarious doings.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Obama's track record is of drawing down, of getting OUT of wars the Chimp started. Ignore that small detail, though, because it doesn't match your doom/gloom outlook.
But hey--ignore all that--you're too invested in an "All Americans Are Baaaaaad" mentality, I guess...?
I hope like hell we were bugging the fucking Syrian Army--that would be some useful audio...
go west young man
(4,856 posts)who may have a conflict in the future? Because Obama doesn't seem to be drawing down on the international wiretapping. As more news comes to light that practice seems to be escalating. I guess we're entitled to bug neighbors though as we are the benevolent American do good world wide police who would never ever deceive anyone for our own benefit! Syria is 7000 miles away and has nothing to do with you and me. And if we were so full of love for humanity why didn't we do anything during the Rwandan genocide? The only time we go into any country is if it suits our national interests. That is pragmatic realism. Not naive optimism wrapped in a flag.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Do you want to be the only one at the tennis match without a racquet?
Are you so naive that you believe that China will pack up PLA Unit 61398 and call it a day? You seriously think Pootie will close up his shops and stop doing the very same damn thing we're doing? I've a bridge for sale, if you believe that.
Syria has very much to do with me, so don't make assumptions not in evidence. It used to be in my neighborhood; I have Syrian friends. And last time I checked, I observed that I was a member of the human race, and I really don't like seeing my fellow humans poisoned like cockroaches.
I guess, in that regard, anyway, I am a lot like the socialist President of France. Funny, I don't see him leaping to associate himself with America, but in this case, he's d'accord. He has a major problem with al-Assad's conduct, too, and he advocates a vigorous response.
And he most certainly hasn't wrapped himself in any 'flag'--France's or America's--he just has the basic decency to object to wholesale slaughter.
In sum, his "pragmatic interests"-- like ours -- are that you don't stand by while innocent human beings from children to the elderly are massacred wholesale by the hundreds, if not thousands. It's called basic human decency, and without it, you become "less than."
go west young man
(4,856 posts)would like Europe to be getting its oil from someone other than the Russians?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-02-130813.html
These countries don't care about UN treaties. Hell we're the ones that break them the most. They certainly don't care weather your friends or neighbors were gassed. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/26/cia-documents-show-u-s-helped-iraq-fight-iran-despite-chemical-weapons-use/
Yet your advocating that we Americans spend our hard earned dollars and give up our lives to go there. If your so for it why not go fight it yourself?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Certainly not from me!
Come on--explain yourself. You don't get away with making purely bullshit remarks like that without a challenge.
I can't believe so many people here don't pay attention to the news...!
go west young man
(4,856 posts)to the point of US troops being involved is what your getting at? Certainly the possibly exists regardless of what pundits say. Look at what happened in Serbia with British and NATO forces nearly starting WW3 with the Russians. The possibility always exists.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)that our "news" has been fucked for the last two decades and now just passes as propaganda/opinion? It was our corrupt "news" that led the charge for war in Iraq and we all know what happened there. Hell, CNN's lead story yesterday was Miley Cyrus's dance moves.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You can--like I do--look at news reports from around the globe.
If you are relying on "our fucked up news" then this is YOUR fault. You can't throw out that excuse and get away with it here.
The internet is a helluva thing, you know.
Miley Cyrus may have been YOUR lead story, but when I look at CNN, I look at CNN International from a SW Asian or European perspective.
You're the captain of your own "news" ship--sail where you will.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I mentioned what passes for news in the US after "you" asked if I paid attention to news. However my main news sources are well read. 1) The Guardian, 2) Der Spiegel, 3) Asia Times Online, 4) The Independent 5) Reuters, 6) Al Jazeera, 7) Janes Defense Weekly,8) The Economist, 9) Live Leak for War footage 10) Le Monde amongst others... US "news" is good for comedy. I go to the Daily Show for proper reporting ironically.
Your over reaching reactionary remarks about me instead of the issue at hand speak more loudly than your boisterous posts.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I asked you if you paid attention, yes, and you --in response to my query-- started crying about Miley Cyrus on CNN.
By your very own remarks you led me to believe that finding viable sources of news presented you with difficulties, which is why I asked if your computer was broken.
If you don't want people to think you have a problem, don't act like you're having one.
MADem
(135,425 posts)We're taking the baseball bat, the pea shooter, the slingshot and the bicycle chain away from the local bully.
The idea is to remove al Assad's capability to kill little children and old people.
In Serbia, we had "boots on the ground." There are no boots, no troops, no nada.
We're bombing STUFF, not people.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I didn't realize you had a fucking TELESCOPE INTO THE FUTURE!
cali
(114,904 posts)it will be very difficult to prove that. Secondly, I don't trust the U.S. Intelligence services. Recent history has taught us that we shouldn't.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)And that no one in Washington wants the P.R. nightmare of the potential of American casualties in another Middle East nation (backed by Russia, no less), along with the fat price tag that comes along with it...
Not to mention that like Egypt, there are probably multiple "sides" among the rebel forces, and the U.S. won't be going through all this trouble unless they have assurances that the "right" people will be in power when all the dust settles...
I think ultimately the U.S. will keep their assistance under-the-radar and just sit back providing cash/resources/intel/logistics...
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)If you are going to bomb the crap out of one side for using CW then shouldn't you also be prepared to do the same to the other side also?
JI7
(89,182 posts)alsame
(7,784 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)Sad to see a great man reduced to this kind of thing. WTF was he going on about, and someone needs to explain to me how killing more kids, and women, and innocent people, with our missiles and bombs (because that will inevitably happen) is making things morally better.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)and I wondered if he'd seen the videos of our Drones and Bombs results in Afghanistan Yemen and South Africa. I wondered if he caught any of the photos from Iraq of women, children...whole families?
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)"...give me some flames...some sound of screaming..."
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)so bullshit on your false crap about how I"m doing it "light".
leftstreet
(36,081 posts)No wonder they waited until she left
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Are they really this stupid? Polls show Americans overwhelmingly don't want to have anything to do with Syria in terms of American involvement. So if Obama does involve the USA into this conflict, he will turn many voters off of the Democratic party.
leftstreet
(36,081 posts)They've proven that. Plus they know Hillary will sweep it in '16
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Or think some other bigger, nastier agendas are involved somehow, if they are willing to disregard public opinion so blatantly like this, just to get a war going.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Truly.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Autumn
(44,762 posts)There you go This thread is complete
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)to sarin gas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Ghouta_attacks
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You think the rebels were behind the attack. These chemicals aren't something you can mix up in your kitchen sink.
So where'd the rebels get them? Do you think Assad isn't guarding his chemical weapons stockpile?
And even if we set that aside for a moment, the weapons were "delivered" via rockets. The rebels don't have rockets that can deliver explosives, much less rockets that can deliver chemical weapons.
Finally, if Assad had such an upper hand as you describe, there wouldn't still be a civil war in Syria. He'd have slaughtered the rebels by now.
What should we do? Fuck if I know. We can not turn Syria over to any of the rebel groups - All of them are awful in their own way. We also can't let Assad keep gassing people. So for now I'm just gonna be happy my house is painted a darker color so I don't have to figure out what to do.
cali
(114,904 posts)I do think it's important to ask cui bono?
It's not at all impossible that some rebel faction has sarin.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505
And we certainly don't know if the rebels have rockets or even definitively what the delivery system was.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)We know what the delivery system was, because any chemical weapons delivery drops large chunks of the delivery device - the bomb casing or the rocket body.
We do know that the rebels do not have heavy weapons, including rockets. Because they are begging us for heavy weapons, and they'd be using them to blow up Assad's tanks if they had them.
The problem with "just asking the question" is that should only happen if that path is possible. We should have some reasonable path before we entertain the possibility, IMO.
That isn't to say I have a good plan to what to do to Assad over this.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)before the gas attack
13/08/01 5:14 PM ET
Rebels sent a wave of rockets slamming into regime strongholds in the central city of Homs on Thursday, triggering a succession of massive explosions in a weapons depot that killed at least 40 people and wounded dozens, an opposition group and residents said.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08/01/massive-fireball-rises-from-syrian-arms-depot-after-rebel-rockets-score-direct-hit-on-city-recaptured-by-assad/
The Nerve gas attack happen on 21 August 2013..... which is ten days latter.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398691/Syrias-darkest-hour-Hundreds-childrens-bodies-piled-high-nerve-gas-attack-near-Damascus-leaves-1-300-dead.html
Which means either side has the capabilities.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You'd need a chemical weapon warhead on top of the rocket to disperse chemical weapons, and a larger rocket than one typically used for artillery strikes. And for the time being I'd have to think that no other country is crazy enough to ship that, even if they ship explosive-tipped rockets.
Thanks for the links.
cali
(114,904 posts)facts simply have NOT been established.
Qatar and Saudi Arabia have been funneling arms of all kinds to the rebels. No, we don't know precisely what those arms consist of.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/world/middleeast/sending-missiles-to-syrian-rebels-qatar-muscles-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/25/syrian-rebels-weapons-shipment
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08-20/world/41427932_1_syrian-rebels-aleppo-air-base
jeff47
(26,549 posts)But I really, really doubt Qatar or Saudi Arabia sent chemical weapons or chemical warhead-tipped rockets to the rebels.
Not to mention, if it was the rebels Assad would be personally giving the UN a tour in order to hurt support for the rebels.
What it comes down to is an attack by the rebels using chemical weapons is exceptionally unlikely due to the difficulty of getting the weapons and the delivery system. We shouldn't absolutely close the door on it, but at the same time it's silly to treat that as just as likely as a chemical weapon attack by Assad.
OnlinePoker
(5,702 posts)But it was perfect enough to kill 13 people.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)So far, nobody's pointed to a rebel-held chemical weapons factory.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)This civil war has a lot of strange players in it. The rebels captured a base
This battle will explain how messed up it is and the different factions fighting against the government.
Battle of Aleppo (201213)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(201213)
This thread hints that the Al Quida aligned faction of the rebels might have sarin
for sources just read my posts in the thread..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023535154
jeff47
(26,549 posts)But thanks for the info. It's the kind of thing I was asking for.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)The outrage seems a bit selective.
karynnj
(59,475 posts)Before that slaughter, Kerry and William Burns were working with the EU and EL Baradei to find a way to avoid the violence and transition to civilian rule -- at one point, it seemed possible per the article, but it ultimately failed.
Marr
(20,317 posts)We don't know who did this attack, so making such an unequivocal claim is transparent bullshit.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Response to cali (Original post)
CJCRANE This message was self-deleted by its author.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)My translation is in italics.
The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by chemical weapons is a moral obscenity. The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by drones is ok because we are providing security to our U.S. citizens.
Now I've read more....The lengthy explanation we're being fed about the horrors of chemical weapon deaths....the writhing and spasms without blood...is supposed to be worse than slowly
bleeding to death or a father carrying a child with body parts missing? The whole thing makes me
imho
Edit: And this! What in the hell does this mean? Maybe it means, we have to get our shit together and figure out the best way to 'explain' it to the American people so we can go ahead with the
PNAC plans. Here's what I'm ranting about:
KoKo
(84,711 posts)That was shocking. A side of him, revealed.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)"There is a clear reason There is a reason There is a reason." And yet Kerry never articulates this reason.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)As for the OP, we know CW were used, but we don't know by who exactly. If we knew who, then State would be calmly explaining all their evidence to make their case. Kerry would be speaking at length and more length parsing his words and qualifying as he did when he knew he was right in '04. That's not what happened. As you point out, they got Kerry, not known for his charisma, to deliver a speech chock full of emotionality, short on specifics backing up the claims, and containing uncharacteristic obvious propogandic phrases.
Also, knowing that Pres. Obama has publicly declared one 'Red Line', why would Assad deliberately cross it to kill innocents? Why beg to get crushed?
KoKo
(84,711 posts)and that was for a reason.
karynnj
(59,475 posts)I do get why he is more emotional speaking of that as opposed to say - various amendments to a bill on the Finance committee. Ask yourself if there was another time he spoke that emotionally - say in 1971. (Or even his 35 yr anniversary speech reiterating the right and responsibility to speak out. I was there in Boston, it was emotional and there were at least 10 - 15 standing ovations,)
The fact is that one of the biggest lies about Kerry in 2004 was that he was wooden - he wasn't and few actually saw him speak at any length.
karynnj
(59,475 posts)reportedly very very well. That war was really about oil -as Lugar admitted at a SFRC hearing a few years ago when he spoke of the Carter doctrine.
Remember that it was Kerry's very dramatic speech in 1971 that may be the most remembered words he has ever spoken. (That says something when he was a nominee for President, the SoS, and a 28 year Senator!)
Catherina
(35,568 posts)I almost posted this this morning, after it flew across my twitter feed but everyone should already know this, without a reminder!
And please, if you have time, translate the rest of that horrific statement for us.
If we're that worried about innocent deaths, how about we stop the drones? How about we keep our nose in our own affairs instead of bullying everyone around and attacking them when they resist?
(PIC not posted lest someone use that as an excuse to alert)
Three unnamed victims of the December 17 2009 strike (Photos courtesy Al Jazeera)
For some weeks in early winter 2009 the people of al-Majala, southern Yemen, had noticed a spotter plane overhead.
The aircraft, most likely American, wasnt seen as a threat. After all, it had been seven years since the last US military action in Yemen, when a CIA drone had killed six al Qaeda-linked militants.
But everything was about to change. At 6am on December 17, a US Navy vessel stationed in the Gulf launched at least one cruise missile towards al-Majala.
...
Entire families killed
Within hours of the attack, news began circulating that a large number of civilians had died in al-Majala. The New York Times reported that night: some witnesses and local journalists in Abyan said a number of civilians were also killed in Thursdays raids there. By the following day Al Jazeera was airing video images of shrouded corpses.
...
Among those killed that day were 22 children. The youngest, Khadje Ali Mokbel Louqye, was just one year old. A dozen women also died, five of them reportedly pregnant.
...
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/03/29/the-civilian-massacre-the-us-will-neither-confirm-nor-deny/
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)I'm ready to wretch with this trash we're being handed. I don't know if
I can stomach more....the little angel on my shoulder is crying.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)reminiscent of Colin Powell at the UN for "proof" of why we should invade Iraq.
But, this was very emotional and such a change for Kerry's usual delivery that it seemed designed to show his gripping emotional outrage that came from his gut to convince us of how we must stop this "latest terror." It was sort of "Shock and Awe" Kerry. He's so cool and controlled that if "he's freaking out" so there MUST BE SOMETHING sooo Terrible There that we cannot allow it to go on.
Ignoring the past and his own experience from Vietnam on through the decades. It's more terrible in Syria than ANYTHING he has ever seen...and it cannot stand.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And if the rebels were responsible, why would Assad not invite (actually demand) that the UN inspectors come in right away, so that they could verify that he was the innocent party?
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)...regardless of the evidence. As you can see.
FSogol
(45,360 posts)What other conclusion can there be?
bowens43
(16,064 posts)phleshdef
(11,936 posts)See post #52 if you want to discuss some facts.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...vocal.
Response to cali (Original post)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)"There is a reason the international community has set a clear standard and why many countries have taken major steps to eradicate these weapons." Some countries more special than others? USA,USA,USA!
If the world has banned entirely the use of chemical weapons why do any countries have them?
This world is fucked.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)I can't even express the rage I feel when we're talking about evils of chemical weapons only days after it was disclosed that we gave the OK for Iraq to use them against Iran.
Link Speed
(650 posts)Gas blows away, uranium will hang around a while.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)People who defend incinerating their little bodies with Hellfire have no business acting so outraged when the US claims its new enemy is gassing children.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)as the old joke went (1990s era), we knew they had WMDs because we had the receipts.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Angola, Egypt, North Korea, South Sudan, and Syria. South Sudan sort of doesn't count because it's a relatively new country (2011) and probably hasn't come up on their radar yet. Otherwise it is illegal by international law for anyone signing with the Chemical Weapons Convention to have chemical weapons.
The United States has been a signatory since 1997.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)They have to build destruction facilities so that the weapons are not moved off-site of where they are currently stored.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)The former are men of honor and calm reflection.
cali
(114,904 posts)and the intelligence community doesn't change much from one admin to another. History should have taught us at least that.
leftstreet
(36,081 posts)Surely not
MisterP
(23,730 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)You're kidding right?
frazzled
(18,402 posts)When the first president Assad (the current one's father) undertook a 27-day siege of the city of Hama and killed what is estimated to be somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 people? (Your mileage may vary, see estimates below*). Here's how The Guardian commemorated their reporting of it, using the average of 20,000 killed:
Assad's troops pounded Hama with artillery fire for several days and, with the city in ruins, his bulldozers moved in and flattened neighbourhoods.
The 1982 massacre is regarded as the single bloodiest assault by an Arab ruler against his own people in modern times and remains a pivotal event in Syrian history.
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog/2011/aug/01/hama-syria-massacre-1982-archive
The world's response then was, I guess, nothing. Now history is repeating itself. I don't know what the answer is; but I also don't feel comfortable saying we should just sit back and say or do nothing when something approaching genocide is afoot. Isolationists need not respond; I'm only interested in reasoned responses from those with pragmatic solutions, one way or the other, to what is undoubtedly a problem.
Reports by the Syrian Human Rights Committee estimate "over 25,000" or between 30,000 to 40,000 people were killed. The Syrian Muslim Brotherhood also suggests a figure of approximately 40,000 victims.
Twenty years later, Syrian journalist Subhi Hadidi, wrote that "under the command of General Ali Haydar, besieged the city for 27 days, bombarding it with heavy artillery and tank [fire], before invading it and killing 30,000 or 40,000 of the city's citizens in addition to the 15,000 missing who have not been found to this day, and the 100,000 expelled."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre
cali
(114,904 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
Mosby
(16,168 posts)An IDF intelligence unit listened in on senior Syrian officials discussing a chemical attack that allegedly took place on the outskirts of Damascus and left hundreds of Syrian civilians dead last Wednesday, a major German publication reported.
According to the report Saturday in Focus magazine, a squad specializing in wire-tapping within the IDFs prestigious 8200 intelligence unit intercepted a conversation between high-ranking regime officials regarding the use of chemical agents at the time of the attack. The German report, which cited an ex-Mossad official who insisted on remaining anonymous, said the intercepted conversation proved that Bashar Assads regime was responsible for the use of nonconventional weapons.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-intercepted-syrian-regime-chatter-on-chemical-attack/
cali
(114,904 posts)Mosby
(16,168 posts)Maybe your confusing them with some other outlet like Israel National News?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Yeah, that's credible.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)While Israel will almost certainly take no direct part in a military strike, Israeli intelligence information is widely believed to have played a central role in enabling the USs adamant conviction that Assads regime fired chemical weapons at civilians outside Damascus last Wednesday, killing hundreds of people and wounding over a thousand, according to Syrian rebel groups.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-intelligence-seen-as-central-to-us-case-against-syria/
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)It's really too bad that the difference between Republican and Democratic administrations is insufficient when it comes to making war.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)mike_c
(36,214 posts)Kerry, who fell for the same generic lies during the run up to war with Iraq should be especially ashamed to be the MIC mouthpiece now.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)US President Barack Obama has the authority to launch air strikes against Syria. But he has to notify lawmakers in Congress -- a process which Secretary of State John Kerry said Monday has begun.
>
A spokesman for the Republican speaker of the House Of Representatives John Boehner however said those conversations had not yet begun.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130826/obama-doesnt-need-congress-intervene-syria
They can't both be telling the truth - which one is lying ?
go west young man
(4,856 posts)US gave Saddam blessing to use toxins against Iranians
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...not Obama or Kerry. The headline is meant to divide...
go west young man
(4,856 posts)A country is more than it's leader. It is it's reputation on the world stage. Our reputation is not the most pristine in these matters. As a matter of fact I'd say it's downright deplorable. According to your logic, if someone or some news source, criticizes the current policy of the president of the US then that constitutes being a divider? In that case let's just get rid of discussion boards entirely and just walk around with flags waving from our assholes.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)The Corporations and War Interests did that with the GASSING.
It's gotten out of our control since Kennedy was assassinated. Or, so it seems to us old timers who've watched it all for decades.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...negatively around the world when we do dumb things...Iraq, for example. That's one of the reasons I was so dismayed at having GWB on the world stage. His presidency...so called...hurt us in the eyes of other countries.
But I also think we Americans should be smart enough, and well-informed enough, to distinguish between the presidents we elect to lead. For example, the former support of Saddam against Iran was decided by REAGAN...a president whose policies I abhor. GWB permitted torture. Other countries only see these as the USA doing bad things, and they are right.
For me, that just reinforces why it is SO important for we citizens of the USA to be informed about our leaders' history and policy before we choose them. As an informed citizen, I don't equate Bush/Cheney and Reagan with President Obama or John Kerry. They are NOT the same.
I would encourage anyone who thinks so to watch this video...all the way through the questions about Syria...and then post a response to my post:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/USForeignPolicy112
And BTW...I'm an old timer,too...
go west young man
(4,856 posts)They are not that different. If Obama is against something he should have the temerity to follow the law and seek justice for all the innocent dead Iraqi's. Instead he has opened the door for the Neocons to go for Syria. He is not the person you think he is. As for Kerry he too is quite the letdown. He's pulling a Colin Powell right now. And to think he once fought to end the Vietnam War. How do these guys go from those poses to following the neocon agenda?
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Or some stupid shit like that.
I still curse the day I decided to work for him.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)This is no surprise to me. Yes, it's a bit much and right out of the play book... bad acting, and insincere.
I think it's morally obscene to ignore the 2004 stolen election, which was my first glimpse of his giving up and acting "on cue" to step aside. Don't worry... play your cards right and you'll land SOS job right after the other war monger is done with it.
Unlike some here, I do NOT think Kerry had what it took, though I had hoped right up until he walked away a day after that election.
Now, this...
Shouldn't we be asking ourselves how crimes against humanity should be dealt with? We keep changing the rules when nations go bad. In fact, most dictators of the world who go bad start out as puppet governments arranged via black operations. It doesn't even matter because we fund it with that part of the military government for which we never see a budget. Then, we are incensed when the powers that be kill and maim.
As a human being, I can't get the image out of my head of a soldier who is bent, folded who's spirit is mutilated such that collateral damage doesn't matter. Look at the video Manning shared and see for yourself.
What do the allies of dictators do when the monsters they've created either go off the reservations themselves, or some faction does. We as the American people in whose names this is done don't even know the story.
But, you make a case for going to war, and it reads like a bad record sticking over and over...
You'll excuse me if I chose another path than to be led into military action. There IS another path, but the chorus is lined up and the rockets are all dressed to the nines and kicking high in an unending effort to get us to bend over.
Hey, John Perry... who's the last one out of this lie?
Little Star
(17,055 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Kerry has a way with words, got to hand him that.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Worked really well last time, now to finish off the empire .....
Al Queda is active in Syria, working to overthrow Assad. Causing the global community to turn against the legitimate government serves their interests. The chemical attack does not serve the interests of the regime, but undermines them. So, apply a tiny bit of logic, and it should be apparent that Assad's regime is the least likely suspect. I'd look to Big Oil doing this before Assad, but AQ makes real sense.
TheKentuckian
(24,949 posts)Hell, we can't even get a decent explanation of what we are doing propping up a brutal dictatorship in Yemen or why we are told to "eat our peas" via austerity but always have plenty of paper to piss away on military force.
I sure as hell am not going to buy the notion that we have to prop up Al Queda who we are otherwise treating as a more existential enemy than the NAZIS. We know how this story plays out. We either deal with the blowback from a monster we created down the line or we have to take effective ownership of Syria at ruinous cost and eventually turn it over to some devils or another and down the line we'll have to force another regime change.
No, we need to stay the hell out and let the other Arabs, Europe, Russia, and China protect their own interests and shoulder the cost, we are in deep enough and about every time they roll the dead innocents to get us to swallow more shit and cut off our own future at the knees while the bodies pile up.