General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMuseRider
(34,060 posts)and we are right now.
Thanks for the blast from my past.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Hi muse!
MuseRider
(34,060 posts)Getting rather difficult to spend time here lately.
Always happy to see you
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)MuseRider
(34,060 posts)and YES WE WERE!
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)MuseRider
(34,060 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)I need to go for a walk.
MuseRider
(34,060 posts)I find myself so upset that I am close to tears, then not, then again. I am not happy, I do know that. I can be happy without all of this but feel it is so important to keep up. Argh, I don't know what to do at this point. I was looking forward to the post "Little Boots" years. Unless you can convince yourself that it is better with your own guy in charge doing much the same stuff then I find no way to find relief.
Walk and feel better.
Autumn
(44,762 posts)Goes to show the truth endures.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)That'll show 'em!
Melissa G
(10,170 posts)if I recall during 1973 or '74.
Whoda thunk it.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)I frankly am already at my wits end reading the posts from so-called experts who 'know' that bombing Syria is the 'right thing, the moral thing' to do. All because their God, their Icon, tells them so. Absolutely no higher thinking involved, just blind, smug obedience. I am so sick of the US leadership thinking it has a 'right' to police the world and kill people who are no threat to it, with no trial or even evidence allowed.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Gary Gygax is the one true God and Icon. Though I don't think Gygax has voiced an opinion on Syria since he has been "dead" for several years now.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)Faryn Balyncd
(5,125 posts)justice.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)We want to put rules in place to make sure we're being ethical when we're blowing fellow human beings into chunky salsa! I wouldn't want anything weighing down my conscience...
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)We want to put rules in place to make sure OTHER PEOPLE are being ethical when they're blowing fellow human beings into chunky salsa. We still demand the right to do whatever the fuck we want when the rules we made specifically because they favored us are an inconvenience.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... do you think an application of deadly force can NEVER result in fewer deaths overall?
Raven
(13,872 posts)be comfortable taking the chance that it would or would it just be a good excuse to feed/grease the war machine? Do you have an answer to your own question?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I don't like blanket statements like one in the OP. It essentially removes human judgment from the equation, which is never a good thing, IMO.
If someone were trying to hurt, say, my daughter, you bet I'd be willing to use force, even deadly force, to protect her.
And yes, if I believe there are cases where a decision to no act, with violence if necessary, would be an immoral one.
And I know there are pacifists who disagree with me. They are welcome to their opinions, even if they're wrong.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Other than a wild guess....
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It requires a thinking, rational person to judge the risks of one actions against potential benefits.
Blanket slogans, as in the OP, remove the need to think. And thinking is important, IMO.
Love your avatar, btw!
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)MFrohike
(1,980 posts)It's as clever as a pet sweater. There are times when bombing will bring about a better state of the peace, contrary to that stupid slogan. I don't think right now is one of those times, but that doesn't make that silliness true.
Bake
(21,977 posts)It's always a bad thing, but sometimes it's necessary. We didn't let Hitler overrun all of Europe, and we didn't let Japan overrun the Pacific, because those would have been worse outcomes.
I'm not convinced Syria is one of those necessary situations, and there certainly doesn't appear to be a clear-cut good guy/bad guy. I'm not sure the rebels, should they topple Assad, would be any better.
In short, this one's not black and white.
Bake
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Parolles was talking about military action at the time, but later is exposed as a traitor and ends up a beggar. Who has been pushing this and meeting with rebels to remove Assad?
Sen. McCain Slips Into Syria, Meets With Rebels
...McCain, one of the strongest critics of President Obamas handling of the bloody two-year old conflict between Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and rebel forces, is the highest-ranking U.S. official to visit Syria since the civil war began...
McCain traveled across the border from Turkey to Syria with Gen. Salem Idris, leader of the rebel forces known as the Supreme Military Command. Idris has become the principal interlocutor between the international community and the highly localized Syrian rebel movement.
ABC News confirmed that in meetings with rebel forces during McCains several-hour visit to Syria, rebel leaders called for more support from the U.S., including assistance in the form of heavy arms, airstrikes against the Syrian national army, and the enforcement of a no-fly zone...
The Obama administration announced in April that it would provide $123 million in non-lethal aid to the rebels.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/05/sen-mccain-slips-into-syria-meets-with-rebels/
McCain said he wants to run for President again. Pretty blatant stuff there, I hope Mr. 'Bomb Iran' is sent packing soon. And his pals Lindsay and Rand with his ideas of defending Christians abroad. Lovely, let's embark on a Crusade©.
Lafew said of Parolles:
By mine honour, if I were but two hours younger, I'd beat thee: methinks, thou art a general offence, and every man should beat thee: I think thou wast created for men to breathe themselves upon thee.
I feel the same about Neo-Cons who can't stand the idea of their MIC pals doing without.
But whoever is releasing Sarin gas, is not doing it to save life or for peace, but to make more misery for their own reasons.
If the UN inspectors determine for once and for all who is doing this, and the Sarin is removed no one will care, except the Neo-Cons.
And who profits by not solving the mystery, or by continuing to kill hundreds or thousands of people in Syria?
Not just war profiteers, but in other matters. That's what we should learn by this. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan.
Turkey is ready for this, been calling for it for a long time. They are directly affected by the flood of refugees.
Some keep saying this is a religious war. I can't believe anyone is that stupid over there.
This is a no-win situation that Obama has been trying to stay out of for years. This latest uprising began two years ago, but it's not the first.
It looks like the 2014 and 2016 game is firmly in place now. We may all 'get fucked.' But none of us are virgins.
bhikkhu
(10,708 posts)...but one thing is different from the other. I don't have any idea if there are rosy expectations to be found anywhere in the middle east. It would be nice, but it sure hasn't worked so far.
Kber
(5,043 posts)Jews for Jesus?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Oh wait you can't
jessie04
(1,528 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Oh wait...
Come to think of it, the U.S. didn't go into WWII explicitly to save Jews from being put into ovens - that was a bit of happenstance that happened during the war while we were beating up the Germans.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)first
Had he done that, game over.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Amonester
(11,541 posts)'Big' part of it.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Amonester
(11,541 posts)From: Jul 16, 1945:
The first atomic bomb test is successfully exploded
On this day in 1945, at 5:29:45 a.m., the Manhattan Project comes to an explosive end as the first atom bomb is successfully tested in Alamogordo, New Mexico.
Plans for the creation of a uranium bomb by the Allies were established as early as 1939, when Italian emigre physicist Enrico Fermi met with U.S. Navy department officials at Columbia University to discuss the use of fissionable materials for military purposes. That same year, Albert Einstein wrote to President Franklin Roosevelt supporting the theory that an uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction had great potential as a basis for a weapon of mass destruction. In February 1940, the federal government granted a total of $6,000 for research. But in early 1942, with the United States now at war with the Axis powers, and fear mounting that Germany was working on its own uranium bomb, the War Department took a more active interest, and limits on resources for the project were removed.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-first-atomic-bomb-test-is-successfully-exploded
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)The rest of Europe, Russia, North Africa, The Pacific Rim and China.
---
"Beating up the Germans". Good grief. They killed 20 million Russians alone
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)The "We're heroically storming in to save the innocent" lines were simply the propaganda that got the people to play along.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Sitting on the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.
And how's our colonization of France going right now?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)oil
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Godwins Law is an internet adage that is derived from one of the earliest bits of Usenet wisdoms, which goes if you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, youve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law
You fail.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Well, generalizations generally suck. So there
And forgive me for talking about war when we're, you know, talking about war
MatthewStLouis
(904 posts)Unfortunately, the real world is not so simple and even on an open-minded forum like this one, it appears people are afraid (cowed, people pressured, etc.) to take up the side of the 100,000 people who have died under the Assad regime. Sad sad sad.
War is evil, it sucks, etc, etc. But is closing our eyes to what is going on the best course?
In my opinion, we maybe should have done something sooner. Maybe we should have stood up for the ones dying for their own freedom. I never much cared for bullies.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)I think it's Putin dragging us in to more bullshit. The guy is bleeding us all over the place. I'm trying hard not to take out my anger on the president for allowing this. If he goes into Syria either all the way or half assed it still sucks. That country makes Iraq look like Italy. It's a mess. Their are hundreds of clans or tribes or whatever that have been fighting for hundreds of years.
If we want to do something about WMD's, then blockade the nation and let Russia throw the first punch. The blinked in the 60's. they'll do it again.
And frankly, every where I said Russia, I could say Saudi Arabia as well
trumad
(41,692 posts)I'm serious when I say that.
I have read probably a million posts here on DU since 2001.
Yours is quite possibly the dumbest I've ever read.
Congrats.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Which makes someone else number 2
trumad
(41,692 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Instead of sending in a swat team when there is a shooter in a school, just let him be - shooting at him, etc, could cause additional kids to be hurt.
We should just let them do what they are gonna do and hopefully, maybe, they won't do it again to others.
Works for me. Eventually syria will run out of people to be gassed, already over 1 million refugee children, before long there will be peace because there will be no one to make war and we can hold our heads up high and say "See! Diplomacy worked. The killing has stopped."
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's almost like an overly-simplistic formulation was just given its come-uppance.
Blue Idaho
(4,988 posts)and they still killed 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews.
So there's that.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)How many would they have killed had we not?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And, the killers always try to convince us that killing is moral.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and shit
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)just being snarky
LWolf
(46,179 posts)as those attacking people who have principles, who support and defend those principles, as "purists," though.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)When you keep hearing crap like it is your fault that we lost during midterm elections, that you are a Paulite because you are against the NSA, and now you are a peace purist it gets old.
doc03
(35,148 posts)for war crimes when we tortured people, killed thoudsnds of civilians in Iraq and what about bombing other countries with drones.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)Secretary of State John Kerry said killing women and children and innocent bystanders with chemical weapons is morally obscene. I asked if killing the same people with bombs, drones, electric chair or guns would not be morally obscene? still waiting for an answer.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)the "other guy" has seen it and believes it!
Unfortunately, the "other guy" sees this and thinks we are "weak".
We can prove that we are strong, and is WHY we can afford to push PEACE.
It may seem contradictory, but true words often seem contradictory. (see Tao Te Ching).
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)"All we're saying is give war a chance."
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)but it's not. BTW, I support fucking for ANY reason. I don't support WAR - except when the other guy insists upon it.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Little Star
(17,055 posts)felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)bombing, inevitably there are always people who immediately get in line and seem A OK with delegating this decision to the MIC.
All of a sudden our president morphs into a commander in chief and we are all obligated to obey. For some this is natural, for others not so much.
It's giving up the structure of democracy (when we have it) and our voice in the matter that is the problem--not the for or against-- because if we are in perpetual war, the power structure is militarized here at home. Yet just another benefit to them, and yet another loss to us.
gopiscrap
(23,674 posts)aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)Blue Idaho
(4,988 posts)Thanks for the trip down memory lane!