Obama's war in Syria will be his legacy

[morningfog]

It will over shadow everything that has come before and distract from what follows.

And he seems eager to make it his legacy.

[jberryhill]

1. No, the cuts to Social Security...

...and his refusal to end Don't Ask Don't Tell are far worse among the "things he hasn't done but let's act like he did" failures of his presidency.

[Cha]

3. thanks? :)

[Cali_Democrat]

5. Great response

[morningfog]

10. The SS cuts were totally speculative.

People who thought he was doing that were reading into comments things that just weren't there.

DADT was a fair criticism. He did not end it until he did. It was disarisfaction on his not acting, not predicting an upcoming act. I don't think I remember anyone suggesting that even if he had not lifter DADT that that would be his legacy.

If you think there is any chance in hell we are not attacking Syria, you aren't paying attention. This is a done deal.

[madokie]

11. In your mind its a done deal

One thing I've learned about Obama is not to pre-judge him because of what the press is reporting or what anonymous sources say.

[morningfog]

13. His words say it. His report to congress said it.

I'd put money on this, sadly.

[madokie]

18. When did he say he was FOR SURE going to bomb Syria?

I missed that. I did get that he warned them but I missed the part where he said GO

[jberryhill]

46. How much?

Let's set this up. How much money?

[morningfog]

49. I don't have much, but it is a safe bet for me.

$100?

[jberryhill]

50. Okay, let's define a proposition

How about this:

"That the US military will, pursuant to authorization by President Obama, launch or drop a device into Syria causing an explosion in Syria before September 30, 2013"

Want to appoint a referee?

You are a star member, and I have been in the past. We can ask Skinner to hold the funds in Paypal until disbursing it on October 1, if he's willing to do that.

[morningfog]

51. Works for me.

[jberryhill]

52. Deal

I am sending you my personal contact details by PM.

[jberryhill]

66. 12 days remaining...

[morningfog]

67. Ha. Yep looks like I about to lose this bet.

Very happy about that.

[jberryhill]

68. I believe we are both happy about it

[morningfog]

69. Indeed.

[Sheepshank]

56. NOW you rewrite the hundreds of angry threads about SS being cut for sure as being speculative?

I think selective memories and failure in prediction/tarot card reading is all to prevalent here lately.

[Bobbie Jo]

15. +1

[arely staircase]

19. +1 nt

[scheming daemons]

36. Yep.

[mick063]

48. -1

He was obstructed from doing both positive and negative things.

Using the "things he hasn't done yet" label is easy because he hasn't done anything yet.

Not anything of consequence, good or bad.

[Lint Head]

2. The fact that an installed President squandered the nations treasury, read a children's book

while 3,000 people were incinerated, had American soldiers die for a lie, tortured people, outed a CIA agent and was not prosecuted for murder will be his legacy.

[LearningCurve]

4. I am confused by your post

eom

[Lint Head]

7. You're kidding.

Not prosecuting the Bush Crime Family is a legacy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2332101

[LearningCurve]

9. Ah, now I understand

Thanks for responding, for some reason, the brain wasn't clicking.

[David__77]

6. I agree with what motivates you to say it, but...

We will see what happens. First, we can hope that he truly has not decided. In that case, we have to support him by demanding that he not make a catastrophic error by launching such a war. If he does, then of course it will irreparably damage his presidency. Whether or not it is the critical, defining aspect, depends on way too many factors for us to know.

[bhikkhu]

8. Can we at least admit that's pretty speculative at this point?

It would take a lot to overshadow universal healthcare, the end of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the good stewardship during the revolutions in Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. The revolution in gay rights, and the current stand-down over state legalization of marijuana.

He's done good on many big things, I don't think Obama/Biden is going to morph into bush/cheney at this point.

[morningfog]

12. Look at Libya, Egypt and Iraq today.

He won't be remembered for the food he did intuise places because they have gotten worse. I am not at all saying it was because of his actions. But I am saying it is unlikely that place with such problems will be a point of reference in his legacy.

Afghanistan is the same.

I concede the point on the advancement of gay rights and healthcare. Those will certainly be the positive points. But, pre emotive war in Syria after what we learned in Iraq is the worst decision he hassle to date. It has the potential to quickly spin out of control and mar the positives.

[arely staircase]

20. the points on gay rights and healthcare that you "concede"

I celebrate and consider them to be his legacy.

[morningfog]

26. I celebrate them and they will be *part* of his legacy.

This war, hundreds of drone strikes in at least four countries we are not officially at war with and citizen assassinations will also be a part of it.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. GLBT rights are the legacy of GLBT activists who struggeled for decades. Obama gets some credit

but Harvey Milk was gunned down and we were dragged away by the Straight Folk's police and denied basic human rights for years and years. Those stories will be told. He's the LBJ of our movement, the President who was not really in our corner but eventually got the right thing under the great force and pressure of people and of history. GLBT history will be written by us the GLBT. So trying to make out history vanish is a bad choice.

[arely staircase]

60. You are preaching to the choir

But I give this president a lot of credit.

[cali]

22. your claims are not true.

the ACA isn't close to being universal healthcare, and we have yet to see how it will play out. Afghanistan is a fucking mess and so are Iraq and Libya. Civil wars are ongoing in all three countries. I'm not blaming that on the President entirely by any means but that's where things stand now.

I'll give him credit for leadership on gay rights and for stepping back on his to date lousy marijuana policies.

[bhikkhu]

40. I wouldn't blame him not for putting boots on the ground in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia

and for not micromanaging what was always guaranteed to be difficult transitions. I think our policies there have helped the situations, which could have been much worse. Having done much less in Syria, is that "ours" too? The level of blame indicated in the OP would seem to suggest so. In any case, history has a long way to go for the whole region before we can have the benefit of hindsight.

I hope everything comes out well, but of course it could all turn into a war-wracked mess with or without us. I don't blame him because I don't know what or who could have done better. Perhaps time will tell, but its "highly speculative", at least.

[JoePhilly]

14. It will be right up there with Bengahaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.

[morningfog]

16. Not at all comperable.

Benghazi was not a decision to act but a reaction by others to an unfortunate event. No critical thinking person eer saw Benghazi as a controversial issue.

[JoePhilly]

17. Same for your "comparison" ... unless we send 100,000 troops and we

stay for about 10 years.

Until then, your "speculation" makes as much sense as the RW screaming about Bengahaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.

[morningfog]

27. There is a wide expanse between destabilizing the region in a way that can not be reverse

while killing hundreds and sending 100,000 troops. But, either would taint his legacy.

Striking Syria is a dreadful mistake.

[JoePhilly]

31. The search for the thing that "taints his legacy", continues.

[morningfog]

32. Oh, Joe. Still seeing a hater under every rock

and around every corner.

[JoePhilly]

35. Says the guy searching (rather poorly) for the thing that "taints his legacy".

[morningfog]

37. Dude, I'm not seat hung for shit. I am watching a train wreck

in slow motion. This is an abysmal mistake. I understand your role to play defense and distract. And I know you won't give any hard opinion on Syrian strikes because you haven't heard the official talking points for them yet. But, I am not searching for anything. I want Obama to do well for the country, I think this is a horrible mistake.

[JoePhilly]

41. I don't think we should invade Syria ... hard opinion, just for you

There will be no quagmire with US troops on the ground ... hard opinion, just for you.

I'd be very happy if we find away to stop the Syrian government without any military action whatsoever ... hard opinion, just for you.

I will not be surprised at all if we, along with allies, conduct a limited strike ... hard opinion, just for you.

The fact that we're taking a substantial amount of time examining intelligence and options, following this chemical attack, speaks volumes for how circumspect this administration actually is on issues of this nature.

Not that the Combustible Hair Club would notice.

I hope we don't decide that such a strike is not needed. But if it happens, I won't crap my pants ... as some around hear have done repeatedly already ... based on speculation alone.

I understand that the creation of speculative outrage is one of DU's favorite forms of outrage (see "Social Security cut predictions" under "failed DU predictions&quot .

Bottom line. You made a silly prediction about how Syria was going to cast a shadow over Obama's legacy. Its not going to happen. And that's true even if there are limited strikes.

Your speculative "hard opinion" on this (shadow on legacy), is going to be wrong. Another hard opinion from me to you.

[jberryhill]

43. "the Combustible Hair Club"

It's like the other Hair Club, but the "before" and "after" pictures are reversed.

[JoePhilly]

45. LOL ...

It should be ... except the hair grows back only to burst into flames again, and again, and again.

[arely staircase]

21. seems like I heard the same thing about the quagmire he was supposedly going to get us into in Libya

I think you seem more eager to make Syria his legacy than he does. If he attacks Assad, and the whole thing turns out well, I bet you won't be calling it his legacy.

[cali]

23. Libya is a god awful fucking mess. can you spell civil war? good.

[arely staircase]

25. There is no civil war in Libya and there is certainlay not a US quagmire as was breathlessly

and repeatedly predicted here. Fact is Libya is a hell of a lot better off than it was under Qaddafi.

The legislature of Libya is the unicameral General National Congress, which has 200 seats.[86]

On 7 July 2012, Libyans voted in parliamentary elections, the first free elections in almost 40 years.[87] Around thirty women were elected to become members of parliament.[87] Early results of the vote showed the National Forces Alliance, led by former interim Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril, as front runner.[88] The Justice and Construction Party, affiliated to the Muslim Brotherhood, has done less well than similar parties in Egypt and Tunisia.[89] It won 17 out of 80 seats that were contested by parties, but about 60 independents have since joined its caucus.[89]

As of January 2013, there was mounting public pressure on the National Congress to set up a drafting body to create a new constitution. Congress had not yet decided whether the members of the body would be elected or appointed.[90]

Following the 2012 elections, Freedom House improved Libya's rating from Not Free to Partly Free, and now considers the country to be an electoral democracy.[91]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Government_and_politics

[cali]

30. Fine. Call it incipient of re-emerging. whatever you wish. It's still a mess

How militias took control of post-Gaddafi Libya

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/groundtruth/how-militias-took-control-post-gaddafi-libya

[arely staircase]

53. I'm not gonna say Libya isn't a mess. Hell it has always been a mess

but it is at least marginally less a mess than before NATO backed the rebels there. I'm not banging the war drums on Syria. I'm not sure what should be done. But those who claimed US/NATO involvement in Libya would be some sort of Iraq/Vietnam like quagmire were wrong. And they could be wrong about Syria. Or they (you) could be right. I'm very troubled by this whole thing and simply refuse to play DU pick a side on this.

[treestar]

57. And don't forget

That the DU was angry at Obama for not "helping" the uprising Libyans, and Egyptians, at first. It was said he was not speaking in support of them. When it did, it wasn't soon enough.

There is only one standard by which these posters judge things. How can be make Obama look wrong?

If Obama said we just can't be world policeman, can't do anything about this gas attack, guess what would be the prevailing sentiment of the DU?

[arely staircase]

61. yes, the standard is this

if Obama does it, or is rumored to be considering it, it is bad.

[morningfog]

28. How would you define it turning out well?

I wouldn't look to Libya as a reference point on "well." How many Syrians killed by the US will tip it from "well" to not well?

Setting that aside, the international community was supportive of the Libya action.

Further, eve if it "turns out well," I hate the pre-emptive precedent that it continues.

ETA: I will say this. If he does decide not to attack, I will applaud that decision to show restraint. And I hope it would become a great mark on his legacy.

[arely staircase]

54. "well" would be an end to the killing

and I don't know if US involvement would hasten that or prolong it.

[JoePhilly]

33. Lybia was going to be Obama's Iraq, until it was Eqypt that was going

to be Obama's Iraq ...

.... wait ... I think that's backwards .... Egypt was going to be Obama's Iraq, until it was Libya that was going to be his Iraq ... no wait ... crap ...

%$#$$ .... I can never remember which of things that was going to be Obama's Iraq, came last.

Oh wait ... it just got easier ... forget Egypt and Libya ... its Syria ...

Syria is now going to be Obama's Iraq!!!

[treestar]

59. reminds me of an old SNL skit

I think it was even Al Franken -

Grenada is Reagan's Vietnam, a whole list of such things, then

Laos is Vietnam's Vietnam

New Jersey is everybody's Vietnam.

[arely staircase]

63. regional joke here

Louisiana is East Texas' East Texas.

[arely staircase]

62. +1 nt

[KharmaTrain]

24. Just Like Kosovo Is Clinton's Legacy...

...ya mean it isn't? I recall all the angst that preceded that military intervention and how it resulted in the Serbians finally releasing their grip on that province and led to the ultimate downfall of Milosevic. At the time many feared that we were walking into a civil war and would surely be drawn into "another Vietnam". It didn't quite turn out that way.

I am against any unilateral U.S. military action in Syria but that would change if this were a truly international action; meaning not just the British but also the French...and most specifically, other nations in the region. They feel the greater effects of the strife in Syria and will be there afterwards to try to help that country put things back together. I'm hoping that the threat of force can push the various factions involved in that war (along with their proxies) to open up some type of negotiations and to put pressure on the Russians to force their puppet, Assad, out.

It's premature to assess Obama's legacy...I leave that to time and historians. Unfortunately he works under the shadow of the dubya legacy that shattered any trust in government foreign policy...

[Scurrilous]

29. Thankfully you'll have zero say in the matter.

Cheers!

[The Link]

34. I think it will be drone warfare.

[Hobo]

38. its President Obama EOM

[dipsydoodle]

39. Linked with the paradox of the peace prize - yes.

.

[spanone]

42. what war in syria?

[HappyMe]

47. I know that I slept in a bit today,

but I wasn't aware that I slept through the start of a war.

[treestar]

55. talk about getting ahead of yourself

nah, the ACA

[Adrahil]

58. Not even close IMO

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. unless its a kosovo like war

[Islandurp]

65. Bin Laden already forgotten...