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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFrance seeks Syria strike while treating her citizens like Adults
France, which was skeptical on US claims about Iraq, has based on its own analysis concluded that Syrian regime forces did, in fact, launch a massive nerve gas attack on Damascus suburbs held by opposition units.
Somehow France managed to do this while 1) using a conservative death toll estimate, and 2) not yelling "Hitler, Hitler, Hitler" and stomping their feet.
I am no way convinced that a strike would make the world a better place, but if I were to listen to such an argument I would find the French argument more persuasive than the overwrought, insulting, argument our domestic leaders seem to think we deserve. The "Hitler is hiding in your garage" sort of argument we were handed throughout the Bush regime is old hat and at this point could only appeal to a hypothetical "Mor Irak, Pleaz" crowd.
If the case is strong then make that case Obama-style, not Bush-style.
The government, on its Web site, published a 9-page intelligence synopsis about Syria's chemical weapons program that found that at least 281 deaths could be attributed to the attack in rebel-held areas outside Damascus. The analysis based that count in part on dozens of videos culled by French intelligence services.
The extract said "the analysis of intelligence that we possess today leads us to estimate that on Aug. 21, 2013, the Syrian regime launched an attack on some areas of the Damascus suburbs held by opposition units, bringing together conventional means and the massive use of chemical agents."
President Francois Hollande has backed a call from President Barack Obama for a military strike against Syrian President Bashar Assad's government in retaliation for the chemical attack...
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/french-set-release-intelligence-syria
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Comparing Assad to Hitler, telling Congress they face a "Munich moment," etc.
that's unfortunate.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Everyone's always "the next Hitler" when we want to blow them up.
1) It conjures the image of a "good war"
2) It makes the enemy seem more powerful and thus more dangerous
3) it's always an oblique reference to the Holocaust, sure to rile up an unthinking emotional response.
I think it might also have something to do with the narrowing of the intellectual spectrum of political discussion in the US. Every scandal is watergate, every war is Vietnam, every enemy is Hitler, etc.
BainsBane
(53,066 posts)HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)the fascistic McCain and Graham, never having learned the lesson given to us by that crusty old Tory racist Churchill that one never negotiates with fascists.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)MineralMan
(146,331 posts)"La Syrie." Every noun in French has gender, even if it is a neutral gender. France has a long history with La Syrie.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)MineralMan
(146,331 posts)In French, however, which is the language used in France, Syria has the feminine gender in use. When things are translated, it's common to use the pronouns used in the original. Besides countries usually have feminine gender. The motherland and all that.
I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say, though.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)To me, Germany was female even while calling itself The Fatherland.
The tradition of using feminine pronouns for nations and ships is antique (as am I, I suppose), but I see no great harm in its employment.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Maybe Obama should send Kerry to Paris to advertise his war.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/31/france-syria-poll_n_3847660.html
France Against Syria Strike And Distrusting Of Hollande, Poll Says - Reuters
PARIS, Aug 31 (Reuters) - Most French people do not want France to take part in military action on Syria and most do not trust French President Francois Hollande to do so, a poll showed on Saturday.
The United States said on Friday it would punish Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's government for a chemical attack that it says killed more than 1,400 people in Damascus last week, and Hollande said Britain's parliamentary vote against military strikes would not affect France's own actions.
The BVA poll released by Le Parisien-Aujourd'hui en France, showed 64 percent of respondents opposed military action, 58 percent did not trust Hollande to conduct it, and 35 percent feared it could "set the entire region (Middle East) ablaze".
Two other opinion polls published this week, and carried out after the gas attack, indicated lukewarm support among French voters for military intervention in Syria
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Yet, it is perhaps irrelevant who gave the order since the entire Syrian leadership is reportedly afraid that the defense lines will collapse. These fears have been fanned by a number of developments over the past few weeks: the unauthorized withdrawal of previously Assad-loyal militias to their Alawite villages; the feared rebel offensive; the declining morale of the regular troops; and the rising losses without military victories to show for them.
The poison gas attack was probably carried out by the 4th division of Assad's army. Experts and defectors agree that this is the only unit that possesses launching devices for chemical weapons. Immediately following the chemical attack, it shelled rebel positions with conventional artillery -- but was unable to take a single location.
Instead, the division lost at least seven tanks in the Damascus neighborhood of Harasta alone. A rebel video provides an insight into the lack of personnel among the elite division: Two crew members flee a burning tank -- but they are wearing no uniforms, no helmets and no radio gear. Shabiha militia members have apparently been forced to fill the gaps in the ranks of the army.
The images are highly significant and don't correspond with reports that Assad has strengthened his military position. Military experts and intelligence agents had been circulating this theory for months, ever since the battle for control of the small town of Qusayr in early summer. Under the leadership of over 1,000 fighters from the Shiite Hezbollah militia from Lebanon, Assad's troops were able to recapture Qusayr.
Snip
Nevertheless, the myth of a military turning point in the regime's favor has persisted since June. This has also hampered the search for motives for the poison gas attack: Many observers wondered why Assad should use chemical weapons if he is winning the war already. In actual fact, the situation has been difficult for the regime's troops for quite some time now. Since the spring of 2012, many of the army's positions have only been supplied from the air because all land routes are under the control the rebels.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Which catastrophe is the only question.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)It's already a humanitarian crisis. Now imagine what happens when Assad's forces use chemical weapons again.
The 2 million refugees will multiply exponentially and the surrounding countries will implode as well.
GeorgeGist
(25,323 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)No surprise either because Hollande was beating the drums of war earlier and louder than any other international leader this year. It's the same bullshit in better wrapping paper.
"Analysis of open source materials.... And Intelligence from our partners...."
The French people are going to stop reading right there.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)This is the second and last time I will post in this thread so as not to get alerted on as spamming-
Yet, it is perhaps irrelevant who gave the order since the entire Syrian leadership is reportedly afraid that the defense lines will collapse. These fears have been fanned by a number of developments over the past few weeks: the unauthorized withdrawal of previously Assad-loyal militias to their Alawite villages; the feared rebel offensive; the declining morale of the regular troops; and the rising losses without military victories to show for them.
The poison gas attack was probably carried out by the 4th division of Assad's army. Experts and defectors agree that this is the only unit that possesses launching devices for chemical weapons. Immediately following the chemical attack, it shelled rebel positions with conventional artillery -- but was unable to take a single location.
Instead, the division lost at least seven tanks in the Damascus neighborhood of Harasta alone. A rebel video provides an insight into the lack of personnel among the elite division: Two crew members flee a burning tank -- but they are wearing no uniforms, no helmets and no radio gear. Shabiha militia members have apparently been forced to fill the gaps in the ranks of the army.
The images are highly significant and don't correspond with reports that Assad has strengthened his military position. Military experts and intelligence agents had been circulating this theory for months, ever since the battle for control of the small town of Qusayr in early summer. Under the leadership of over 1,000 fighters from the Shiite Hezbollah militia from Lebanon, Assad's troops were able to recapture Qusayr.
Snip
Nevertheless, the myth of a military turning point in the regime's favor has persisted since June. This has also hampered the search for motives for the poison gas attack: Many observers wondered why Assad should use chemical weapons if he is winning the war already. In actual fact, the situation has been difficult for the regime's troops for quite some time now. Since the spring of 2012, many of the army's positions have only been supplied from the air because all land routes are under the control the rebels.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Who knew these powerful, Western Democracies still have to act like Democracies...that is, asking/listening to the people through those who represent them.
I don't get why this is so hard for Obama and now Hollande. They flap at the mouth first...then, oh snap, Parliament/Congress.
Without that, we're just Authoritarian Pots calling the Authoritarian Kettles black. Of course there is a difference, but it's going in the wrong, wrong, wrong direction.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/french-parliament-vote-syria-96140.html
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)It can be done. i.e. taking a position, while also respecting the
intelligence and wisdom of the citizenry.