General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 was a "limited surgical strike"...
... of "short duration" that targeted ONLY Military assets in order to "degrade military capability".
Today in the Senate, John Kerry argued that a limited attack on military assets like the one on Pearl Harbor
does NOT constitute an Act of WAR.
I believe that the World disagrees.
sarisataka
(18,755 posts)although there were some problems with timing...
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)we now know that Roosevelt knew of the attack but didn't do anything because he wanted the US in the war in the Pacific.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)who wrote a book about Roosevelt. I don't believe that view is widely held except for neocons.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)LongTomH
(8,636 posts)The Straight Dope website took this on:
Jeremy Uppington, Reno, NV
We weren't being slaughtered by our own government, either.
The comparisons between Syria and WWII need to stop. There is no comparison, Assad is a different kind of monster than Hitler. Japan is not the United States. The Unites States is not Syria. Etc., etc., etc.
I'm not on anyone's side in this. All I want is for Assad to die. I don't care how. I'd prefer he go alone, actually...he can take his minions with him. Other than that, there is no simple solution.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)You share the same goal as Al Qaeda in Syria.
Congratulations.
You just chose sides.
I chose the side of the citizens that are being slaughtered by the government that they should be able to trust. Good for you. You caught me.
blazeKing
(329 posts)Not sure where you're getting that lie from but there have been so much lately from the warpushers.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)Even though that's not true.
Not sure where you get your information from, either. My search turned up limited results with the same 'take this poll with a grain of salt'. I got mine over a year ago from several sources. No one liked Assad back then. Now, we have people here defending him.
Heather MC
(8,084 posts)No matter what they may or may not be doing to their people. Why is our business to get envolved?
What makes the Leaders of our. country think tthey will not strike back?
And if they do then what?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)...tiger.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm sure that Assad will be dead within two days. Way to go!
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)Really. Footie jammies. Your debate skills are flawless.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You just want Assad dead? Well, fucking get to it!
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)Wow. I didn't catch that.
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)Because the rest of the world did.
Now you better get packing, syria awaits...
RL
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
treestar
(82,383 posts)The Japanese had intent to fully make war. Pearl Harbor, the US, had done nothing wrong. The Japanese had no intent to stop any wars or use of any weapons outside the pale at that time. Their actions in Asia show what their intent was. They intended to take over other countries and were pretty brutal toward civilians about it, too.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...care about intent.
Try this:
Try real hard to put yourself in the shoes of a Syrian civilian who has his family killed in the "limited surgical strike", and then argue with HIM about "intent".
treestar
(82,383 posts)I mean you should advocate gun control for Syria as well as everywhere else.
The idea is that chemical weapons are not to be used not even in war. That's what the UN Convention is for. International society objects.
You can argue the method, but the idea is to let them know in no uncertain terms that it's not accepted. War is accepted, unfortunately, but shooting and bombing in wars is accepted.
You're going with "all's fair in war" unconditionally.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)'Cause Bvarr has a point - Syrians getting killed are probably calling out to god and their mother in shock-induced delirium, instead of reflecting that, "gosh, I'm glad I was killed by American shrapnel and fire, rather than VX agent - lucky me! I'll have my survivors write a thank-you note to Obama!" Seeing shit and blood mix together from a hole in your abdomen tends to cause preoccupation of thought, you know. Maybe you were too preoccupied to think about it yourself, what with how busy you are walling off your little swamp.
You want to help Syrians? Take all that money you so desperately want to spend on peeling the flesh from their bones with American explosives, and use it to help the hundreds of thousands of refugees.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)wrong in theirs
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)My God, how horrible that we refused to do business with them because they were raping and slaughtering Chinese and Korean people! Bad USA! Bad USA!
treestar
(82,383 posts)What was the blockade for? To keep them from getting war supplies so they could attack more countries? Are you saying the US deserved Pearl Harbor?
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)you go to anyone's house and prevent needed things from going in and coming out they are gonna come after you. the u.s. knew they were coming after us and kept it quiet and let the attack happen just like 9-11.
you make it sound as if pearl harbor was an unprovoked attack
as for us deserving p.h. well (if) they knew it was coming and did nothing ....
Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #13)
Name removed Message auto-removed
David__77
(23,479 posts)Japan intended it as a "shot across the bow" to prevent FDR from continuing to obstruct Japan's "greater Asia co-prosperity sphere." I'm not saying Japan was right; obviously, it was not.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)We are now hearing absurd, patronizing, and utterly unsupportable promises that boots on the ground will never be needed. As though anyone could predict with certainty, even if motives were assumed to be pure as snow, what will come of lobbing cruise missiles into another sovereign country.
The fact that we are hearing such utter horseshit (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023589314)
shows how casually the lies are flowing now.
What unconscionable neocon/neolib bullshit. Deja bullshit.
--Donald Rumsfeld, November 14, 2002
Baitball Blogger
(46,756 posts)would be a quick strike. Shock and Awe?
I think they were expecting to get Sadaam in the first hour of the strike. And when it didn't play out that way, we were stuck.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)As said Pres. Clinton too in regard to the Bosnian conflict.
It would be silly of anyone to engage in prophecies predicated merely on the most recent conflicts available... as the European powers did after the Franco-German wars of the late ninetieth century well into the first months of the summer of 1914.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)That the WMDs are somewhere north, south, east and west of Damascus.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Because of a post on something called democraticunderground, the entire Syrian Navy came down today with a sudden bout of heart palpitations accompanied by profuse sweating...
bvar22
(39,909 posts)but that is funny.
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)They Destroyed the U.S. Far East Air Force in Manila and began to invade the Philippines within just hours of Pearl Harbor. Other bases and location were also attacked.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I'm NOT claiming an equivalence in all respects,
but there are enough points of sameness to for a valid comparison.
Dropping BOMBS on another country that has NOT attacked you,
can't attack you,
and hasn't threatened to attack you
[font size=3]is an Act of WAR[/font],
no matter how "limited".
Most International Treaties define it as an Act of "Aggressive War"
and a "War Crime".
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Just like the planned attack on Jutland by the German Army, while a single event, was part of a coordinated campaign that conquered all of Denmark in just 6 hours.
Japan was hitting us all over at the same time. But the main hit was the destroy our Navy so we couldn't do anything about it and they believed we'd just give in and accept peace.
Baitball Blogger
(46,756 posts)At least, that is what I was taught back in my JROTC days.
The problem, as I see it, is that we never, and I mean never seem to get these things right. (Okay, maybe bin Laden was the exception.) Each time we get sloppy and kill civilians, like journalists for instance, it just escalate the opposition to any military strike.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)The Japanese failed to launch the third wave. Their targets were to be the workshops on Ford Island along with the fuel depots, submarine base and dry docks. Not destroying those allowed the lessor damaged ships to be repaired, the AAC to patrol and mainly the subs at their base to deploy as soon a the next day.
Yea, they sank a few ships, but only destroyed 3, USS Arizona (BB39),USS Oklahoma(BB37), and USS Utah(AG 16) Arizona and Utah remain on the bottom at Pearl Harbor.
Most of the damaged ships were combat ready by July of 1942.
Baitball Blogger
(46,756 posts)They hit us strategically and that gave them time to establish themselves in the Pacific.
Just relaying what I was told.
Of course, it did become a rallying point for our side, which is something they may not have anticipated.
sarisataka
(18,755 posts)strategically it doomed Japan's fate in a war it could never win.
jimlup
(7,968 posts)I find this all more than a little ironic. I've heard Hiroshima apologists say that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were "justified" because of this military strike.
If I recall correctly only 3 civilians died. So actually it was pretty close to the advertised "surgiical."
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)jimlup
(7,968 posts)I have a more than casual historical interest.
If you don't I can look it up too but if you happen to have it handy that would be really helpful.
Geez I'll be honest - I'm sort of on the edge with the Syria thing. I'm opposed to unilateral US action without a UN security council resolution but I'm revolted by the use of chemical weapons and I do believe the administration's evidence on chemical weapons. I also don't see how a surgical strike will actually help anything. If it doesn't literally turn the tide in the civil war then what's the point????
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)The National Park Service lists 48 on the USS Arizona Memorial. It all depends on if you include those killed by shells on the ground. http://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/18arizona/18charts1.htm
scooter rider
(80 posts)Most of our valuable naval assets were out to sea at the time of the attack, most notably our aircraft carriers and their flotillas, which allowed the US to quickly recover and destroy their military in about 3 years.
Hope Obama has his intel straight.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)..of a willingness to LIE to Congress and the American People.
In all their War Mongering arrogance, these guys BELIEVE it is their DUTY to LIE,
because We can't Handle the Truth!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)That may be so....but do you think Syria is going to declare war and kick our asses?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Dropping BOMBS and Killing People in a country and we are NOT at WAR with,
that has NOT threatened us,
that can not threaten us,
IS and Act of WAR no matter how many times John Kerry and The Democratic Party leadership says it is not.
In fact, IF we are actually At WAR with anybody,
it is Al Qaeda, and THAT is who we will NOW be Allies with in the NEW WAR against Syria.
It is absurd to argue otherwise, no matter HOW much you think you support the Party.
The claim that "limited bombing" in NOT an Act of WAR defies all logic and history.
It will be amusing to see HOW many DUers just follow along without question and parrot this Orwellian DoubleSpeak.
Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Limited WAR is NOT WAR
Limited Killings of innocent civilians don't really count
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and you don't know that do you?
Abukhatar
(90 posts)The attack on pearl harbor was the first step in a multi pronged attack on the Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia. It was designed to prevent the US forces rom providing naval support for those countries. Dec 7 was pearl harbor, Dec 8 was phillipines...
bvar22
(39,909 posts)There ARE differences,
but there are also enough similarities for the comparison.
The purpose was exercise YOUR ability to stand in someone else's shoes.
It is called "empathy".
Are you capable of seeing a bombing attack from a far away Super Power through the eyes of a Syrian?
or through the eyes of the rest of the World?
Do you believe that an unprovoked bombing attack from a foreign power
with whom you are NOT at WAR,
that you have never threatened,
that you don't have the capability to threaten,
do you believe this is NOT an Act of WAR?
Most international treaties not only define such an attack as an Act of WAR,
but an Act of Aggressive WAR and a War Crime.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)that their assumption that Pearl Harbor crippled the US Navy was highly inaccurate.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)You can agree or disagree with the notion of retaliation against Assad for violating international laws regarding the use of chemical weapons. But to compare what we might do in Syria to Pearl Harbor (and everything else Japan did that day) is way off the mark.
I can separate in my mind, the idea of declaring war vs the idea of a humanitarian based intervention.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)There not enough facepalm in the world to reflect how stupid this post is.
Sid
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)You're correct, it *is* Stupid.
RL
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)both sides, (if there is a 'both', I think the rebels are made up of many 'sides') are evil. Neither side will ever be friendly to the U.S. whether we flip some cruise missles over there or not.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)and the fact that you must misrepresent the truth to make your point speaks volumes.
The attack on Pearl Harbor was the first strike in an attempt to defeat our nation in all out war. There was no possibility that anything would be limited about the conflict they choose to enter into.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)jsr
(7,712 posts)and their bosses are not generals.