This afternoon, we were assured that Syria is not Iraq.

[Atticus]

In 2004, we were assured that Iraq was not Vietnam.

How soon will we hear that Iran is not Syria?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. We are an Empire now

and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

[Atticus]

2. And people wonder why we hate KKKarl. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. But it applies

We were an empire before the bushies, but now...there is no bloody doubt

[MindMover]

27. Does leader of the free world still apply ... ????

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Presidents would like to believe such

and when the President visits abroad, it has been referred to as caesar visiting the outer provinces in the local press.

See Mexico with Obama's visit after his election. These were the words from the local press.

[uhnope]

38. I'm starting to wonder how old some of the people posting here were in 2003 if they can't see any

difference between Obama's Syria dilemma and Bush's Iraq war crime.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Well. you might want to ask the General Secretary of the UN Ban Ki Mun

who said that launching without UN authorization would be akin to a war crime. I guess he was a kid too.

And here is the dilemma. A war crime was committed, but we really do not know for sure who did it. There is more, this is not the first use of Sarin in this conflict. Or for that matter the first massacre in the conflict.

In fact. the concern of use of WMDs was present from the early days of the civil war. But hey, I have been paying attention to this conflict since it started. So of course I would not know a thing about it.

I might add, who exactly are we supporting? We know there is a faction that is mostly secular in this civil war, mostly is the operative word. They are not doing well. Units have deserted completely to other factions who are doing well, particularly those led by Al Qaida elements.

We also know there is a faction run by Al Qaida elements. These are also foreign fighters in many respects and they are doing very well. Some of the horrors they have committed include killing POWs, and removing heads from bodies. Oh and one commander feasted on a prisoner's heart and liver. (Which is not that unusual in the warrior tradition, just strange to Americans)

We also have yet another faction supported by the Iranian government, and the guards. They nominally work for Assad, but none is too sure about that.

Did I mention the Russians on the ground? (Yes, there are foreign advisors attached to government forces)

Need I go on?

The truth is that this is potentially a very stupid act, because well, to quote another child, or rather paraphrase him, "all plans go to hell in a hand basket when you make contact with the enemy." You might even have heard of him, if you knew what you were talking about. By the way that would be that rank beginner, Clausewitz. He also spoke about war being the pursuit of politics by other means.

There is a far older figure in the art of war who also has spoken of the state becoming a shadow of itself when it engages in constant warfare. That be Tzun Tsu. He understood that constant war was the path to ruin over 2000 years ago. I guess he was a child too.

But go ahead and call us children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. It is? So you are telling me the Al Qaida types are not on the ground

Ok, if you say so.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/28/the_civil_war_within_syria_s_civil_war_kurdish_fighters

And you are also telling me that this is the first massacre in Syria?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_during_the_Syrian_civil_war

And I usually do not use Wilki, but their list looks pretty complete. They are not RW either.

Oh look a link to the FSA commander eating a heart

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ad7_1368524917

It does have the proper warning.

More on that from Foreign Policy Magazine, a highly respected establishment magazine

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/13/most_disgusting_atrocity_syrian_civil_war_rebel_eat_heart

And this 2012 article will mostly tell you who is who in the zoo

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/08/winners_and_losers_of_syrias_civil_war

You are way out of your depth, but if you insist, I will gladly drive you to the recruiter. You really need to see war close and very personal.

[ProSense]

3. Libya wasn't Iraq either.

Yet some people emphatically stated it would be.

[jakeXT]

6. It's doing great

Special report: We all thought Libya had moved on – it has, but into lawlessness and ruin



A little under two years ago, Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, urged British businessmen to begin “packing their suitcases” and to fly to Libya to share in the reconstruction of the country and exploit an anticipated boom in natural resources.

Yet now Libya has almost entirely stopped producing oil as the government loses control of much of the country to militia fighters.

Mutinying security men have taken over oil ports on the Mediterranean and are seeking to sell crude oil on the black market. Ali Zeidan, Libya’s Prime Minister, has threatened to “bomb from the air and the sea” any oil tanker trying to pick up the illicit oil from the oil terminal guards, who are mostly former rebels who overthrew Muammar Gaddafi and have been on strike over low pay and alleged government corruption since July.

As world attention focused on the coup in Egypt and the poison gas attack in Syria over the past two months, Libya has plunged unnoticed into its worst political and economic crisis since the defeat of Gaddafi two years ago. Government authority is disintegrating in all parts of the country putting in doubt claims by American, British and French politicians that Nato’s military action in Libya in 2011 was an outstanding example of a successful foreign military intervention which should be repeated in Syria.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/special-report-we-all-thought-libya-had-moved-on--it-has-but-into-lawlessness-and-ruin-8797041.html

[malaise]

4. All lies all the time

I've had enough

[pettypace]

5. Lest we forget Kerry votes FOR attacking Iraq

Look it up HS 116 October 10 2002.

I've just come to conclusion I'm done with politicians. Obama, Kerry, Hagel...all these figures have turned out to be as wicked on foreign policy as Bush and Clinton. To be honest they're all charlatans and jesters.

IRregardless, I don't never want to hear no more anti-war candidate run for office ever again, period point blank.

[Tx4obama]

7. Syria is NOT like Iraq. Syria will be more like Libya but without a no-fly zone

Amazing how folks didn't get this upset regarding the intervention in Libya,
but they are about Syria. Doesn't make make sense to me.

[FSogol]

9. Strange, isn't it? Is proximity to the 2014 midterms the reason?

[Atticus]

11. That could be taken as implying something which I would find very offensive.

Care to clarify?

[FSogol]

13. Simple. Syria is generating a wailing and gnashing of teeth that Libya did not. Why?

[Atticus]

14. And your reference to the 2014 elections? nt

[FSogol]

16. Connect the dots. I do recognize that...

many here are extremely anti-war and have always been anti-war.

The anti-Democratic party, anti-Obama, Anti-HRC, and anti-Kerry vitriol that is gushing forth unabated really has nothing to do with Syria and any possible action the US does or doesn't take.

[rhett o rick]

21. I agree. If the president embraces the Republican desire for war in Syria

it will help the Democrats in 2016. You see the Democrats will be able to pick up some of the pro-war Republican vote.

[Dragonfli]

24. They have already laid wonderful groundwork in picking up the conservative economic votes

of the pro Reagan trickle down Chicago economics and pro derivative banking and deregulation Republican constituency!

Bill Clinton may have been successful stealing the Republicans welfare issue from them (lord how the Republicans squealed about that at the time "he stole our issue!" LOL) it was fun to watch but Obama has stolen their entire pre-2000 economic and post 2000 war platforms making him the true Big Dawg pragmatist!

The best way to elect Democrats is for them to be Republicans, It takes away the burden of choice regarding anything other than social issues and is good for business meaning large check political donations.

[rhett o rick]

31. Hey, hey. Jeeze you didnt have to say it out loud. nm

[FSogol]

25. What a bunch of nonsense.

[Downtown Hound]

43. I hope you're being sarcastic

Because if you really think that pro-war Republicans are going to vote for Hillary Clinton because of Obama's intervention in Syria then you need to put that Kool-Aid jug down.

[rhett o rick]

44. Funny, but if I would have said the same about Pres Obama joining with the REpublicans

to go to war in Syria a few months ago, I think your reaction would be the same. If Ms. Clinton would run against Rand Paul, who would the neocons vote for?

[Atticus]

29. I see---

anti-war = "anti-Democratic Party, anti-Obama"---anti-all that is holy.

If that simplistic twaddle passes for reasoning in your crowd, you need new friends.

[FSogol]

30. That's what you got from what I wrote?

My crowd?

[polly7]

15. You missed all those of us who thought Libya was a complete disaster?

We posted many, many threads and laid out well some of the gross lies and complete bullshit it took to get in there. I guess we didn't have all those funny pics to put in that the running pro-Libya threads had, so maybe they weren't taken very seriously.

[n2doc]

17. There was some

But at the time I seem to remember some propaganda about how the rebels fighting Ghaddafi were heroic and would lead Libya into a new age of prosperity. Or something like that. Plus we really weren't supposed to be leading it, France was. But there were those here on DU that vehemently opposed our actions there.

[FSogol]

19. I remember all the Libya = Iraq comparisons, but don't remember pure, unadulterated Obama-hatred

being on display.

[n2doc]

20. I think because Obama wasn't seen as leading the effort

He was seen as going along with an international coalition. Basically doing his duty as a world citizen. France was the one really pushing for action. At least that is my recollection.

[Tx4obama]

26. The U.S. Senate passed a resolution urging the UN to impose the no-fly zone in March 2011

To say that the U.S. was not the driving force in the Libya intervention isn't really completely accurate.

On March 1, 2011 the U.S. Senate approved by unanimous consent a resolution in regards to Libya

Clause 7:

urges the United Nations Security Council to take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.RES.85 :

Article here: http://www.demconwatchblog.com/diary/4441/what-was-the-senates-intent

[Dragonfli]

18. I suppose we will leave Syria in as good a shape as Libya, things are a humanitarian mecca there now

Our constant meddling in the middle east has always been at least as successful as Libya.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/special-report-we-all-thought-libya-had-moved-on--it-has-but-into-lawlessness-and-ruin-8797041.html

Bush and Obama are correct, military action is well worth the expense in lives and loss of money, it has heralded such wonderful peace abroad and austerity at home!

I am in awe all of all of our military Presidents, war is the goal of all great men.
Social justice at home is the pipe dream of wimps and welfare pushers!

Thank God Obama ran on all war all the time, it set him apart for me and showed me what a great man and President he would be.
I only hope we can fit in Iran before some wimpy Democrat gets in in 2016.

Admit it, the thought of red mist and large explosions swells the pants a bit doesn't it? Is anything more exciting than the thought of killing people? Is death not the power of Gods?
I am as proud as you are and looking forward to our first kills there, I think I need a cold shower, how about you?

[Maedhros]

37. I was upset about Libya.

Still am, now that it is a complete mess.

[morningfog]

42. There are reasons for that.

First and foremost, the UN security council approved Libya military action. Libya was a "legal" war, whereas Syria does not seem to be headed that way.

Second, as you mention, the no-fly zone. The no fly-zone was a clear objective, with effective results.

Here in Syria, we have ill-defined and open-ended objectives.

Get a UN resolution and a plan that can be measured and carried out effectively and there would be less push back. I was against the Libya action, but it was at least legal under international law and I understood the objectives.

[Hydra]

10. And how soon after that to Russia or China?

I keep wondering how we're supposed to fund all of this. Credit? Cutting food stamps?

[Dragonfli]

22. Credit of course, and if the source of borrowing is the peoples trust fund (SS) it doesn't even show

as debt and does not have to be payed back ever if enough cuts are made (Obama already on it!)

Using special accounting that proves inflation does not exist for old people and add to that cuts in Medicare that will ensure nursing homes will not receive enough money per patient from medicare to house the elderly (Obama already on it!) and money will be saved so the war debt will appear to simply not exist!

When your creditor is your grandmother, you don't have to put it on the books as debt until you pay her back and if you simply are smart enough to screw grandma and not pay her back, it's like the war debt never even existed! Our politicians may be lousy grandchildren but they are very smart con men, fuck the old people anyway, it's not as if they have any value killing brown people or anything...

[MNBrewer]

12. another of the things it's not is Nazi Germany.

[Dragonfli]

23. I beg to differ! According to Obama and Kerry it is exactly like Nazi Germany!

You and I both know that they are not lying about such a thing, why such a lie would be blatant cynical manipulation of a public they must feel is extremely stupid! If that were the case and we called them what they were under such a hypothetical one could be banned for calling a liar a liar and none of us wants that.

[Volaris]

32. As soon as the American People forget that we got lied to again.

[blkmusclmachine]

33. Lies lies lies tell me more big lies

[Cryptoad]

34. HOw soon?

just after Iran sends some nuclear weapons for Assad to test in Syria.

[DirkGently]

35. And of course, none are Afghanistan.

Because that clusterfuck defies comparison.

We could maybe impose a one-war limit on the Middle East though.

Be a start.

[Motown_Johnny]

36. Iraq was less than 1/10th of Vietnam (as far as KIA goes)

In many ways, Iraq was not Vietnam. In other ways it was. To equate Iraq with Vietnam is to do an injustice to the horror that was the Vietnam War. Iraq was bad but Vietnam was much much worse.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

^snip^

United States armed forces
Casualties as of 20 June 2013:
58,286 KIA or non-combat deaths (including the missing & deaths in captivity)[38]
153,303 WIA [39]
1,645 MIA (originally 2,646)[40]
725-837 POW (660-721 freed/escaped,[41][42] 65-116 died in captivity)[43][44]
During the Vietnam War, 30% of wounded service members died of their wounds.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_casualties

^snip^

Coalition deaths by hostile
As of 23 October 2011, hostile-fire deaths accounted for 3,777 of the 4,799 total coalition military deaths.