I thought DU was pro gay rights??? (Genuinely hurt)

[NewsCenter28]

This is not a post about Syria.

I had thought that there was no more site tolerant of and supportive of your LGBT sisters and brothers on the Internet than DU. However, over the past 3 weeks, I have seen posts like "Hey Earl G...can we have a Putin avatar?" Do you have any idea how hurtful posts like that (and the elevation of Vladimir Putin to folk hero status here on DU) are to some of your LGBT sisters and brothers. It shows no respect or caring for the brutal crackdown that the LGBT community is going through in Russia in actions sanctioned by Putin. Maybe many of you are unaware of the Gay crackdown going on in Russia? I can only see ignorance and misunderstanding of how gays are treated in Russia as being a reason why Putin is so embraced here on DU.

Earlier this week Mr. Putin denied the law's anti-gay nature. "We are talking about protecting children from the respective information," he said.

"We ask that (other countries) do not interfere in our regulation," he added.

Russian gay activist Nikolai Alexeyev called the law a "historical mistake" that will be appealed in the European Court of Human Rights.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10151790/Vladimir-Putin-signs-anti-gay-propaganda-bill.html

"History will prove that (Putin) made a mistake that the future generations are unlikely to forgive," he said in a statement published on Gayrussia.ru.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english

The cornerstone of Mr. Putin’s “War on Gays,” however, is the vaguely defined and definitively antigay Article 6.21 of the Code of the Russian Federation on Administrative Offenses, which allows the government to fine individuals accused of the propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations amongst minors. The federal ban “builds on the success” of regional laws on “propaganda of homosexualism to minors,” passed in 10 regions since 2006. We have yet to see an example of the federal law in action, though we came pretty close when four Dutch citizens were briefly detained in the northern city of Murmansk in July. Regional laws were used several times to fine gay rights activists.

And this:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nancy-pelosi-does-putin-consider-gays-and-lesbians-in-russia-to-be-god%E2%80%99s-children-as-well/

“What I found interesting was the closing,” Pelosi said. “He says when we pray to God he judges as all–I don’t know exactly was he says–but he says that we are all God’s children. I think that’s great. I hope it applies to gays and lesbians in Russia as well.”

Read those entire 3 articles please and then re-consider your views on Vladimir Putin. DU seems unaware of the above.

So....a President that has done more for gay rights than any U.S. president in history from benefit coverage to federal employees, to repeal of DADT, to not enforcing DOMA, to supporting same sex marriage to arguing against Prop 8 and DOMA at the Supreme Court and whose 2 justice appointments were critical in getting these 2 acts overturned, is much maligned on DU while a person who does not subscribe to the human values that I thought most of us here on DU did subscribe to (that's why I've been here as a lurker and poster for 6 years now!) is elevated to folk hero status.

If DU doesn't even stand up for the LGBT community, than who does? Who will?

Once again, I could give 2 shits about Syria right now. P.S.: To avoid accusations of being a troll with this post, I'll come out. I'm a bisexual-lean gay man myself so I have a personal interest in this issue.

[mia]

1. Chemical weapons don't discriminate. n/t

[quinnox]

2. The thread you reference was meant in a satire or mocking way

it was not meant seriously! (the one requesting a Putin avatar)

Also, just because one agrees with Putin's view on the role of the US in the world and its recent aggressive history of turning to military force as the first option, that does not mean we agree with what Putin's stance is on the gay rights issue. These are two very separate issues that do not have to be taken together.

[VanillaRhapsody]

4. Like Greenwald hanging out with the Oath Keepers..

that means nothing either....


hmmm I am sensing a pattern here.

[quinnox]

5. Huh?

I have not commented on Greenwald in weeks. You must be confusing me with someone else.

[VanillaRhapsody]

20. It wasn't meant to you necessarily....you had to be there....

clearly you weren't so disregard. Someone else will though...

[cui bono]

78. That damn Greenwald, always creeping in threads that have nothing to do with him.

How does he do that?

[Bluenorthwest]

111. When the word 'gay' is spoken, some have to inject Greenwald, becuase he's

gay. It is a long standing tradition with a certain DU cohort. For years they have done this.

[cui bono]

117. These days it seems there are a lot of trigger words.

Unbelievable.

[cyberswede]

120. !

[BeyondGeography]

130. Yup

Remember when it was safe to crack jokes here? Good times.

[eShirl]

3. Wow. n/t

[xfundy]

6. Ya shore got a big spoon there.

Is it used for anything but stirring shit?

Can you also use it for a...

[frazzled]

7. It may not be about Syria, but the same principles apply

If you can't even get folks here to care about people in the midst of being gassed to death in another country, how do you expect them to care about LGBT people being openly discriminated against by their government in another country?

There seem to be very few liberal values left at DU (at least to me). It seems all to be about a heartless kind of libertarianism (there was even a thread the other day saying, hey, it's fine for some guy in Florida to burn 3000 Korans, because he has that "right" as an American); a self-centered kind of isolationism from the world; a sudden disregard for human rights; and frankly, a kind of one-upmanship on how evil you can portray the US of A as compared to almost any regime that's ever existed. And how a pepper spray incident on a college campus is the equivalent of sending missiles with sarin gas into a civilian neighborhood.

Putin is suddenly the cool guy here because he took in Eddie Snowden and gave Obama a black eye. And they can overlook little things like his government's crackdown on LGBT people. We've got cult-of-personality kick-boxing here, not a liberal discussion board.

I'm with you on the ignorance and offensiveness of defending Putin here--and not just because of the anti-LGBT laws there, but also of many other totalitarian tendencies.

I just feel it's sadder and sadder here. I came here back in the early 2000s to find a like-minded community after the travesty of the 2000 elections. Now I feel like I need to find a like-minded community somewhere else, because I just don't understand the vibe here.

To avoid similar accusations, I'll come out, too: I'm a liberal heterosexual woman who supports LBGT rights, and I have a personal interest in the issue.

[Cha]

21. Well said frazzled! I fit that description, too. My personal

interest is seeing all people with equal rights. That goes for Russia, too.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

24. Very well written!

[NYC Liberal]

47. Completely agree with this post.

[Summer Hathaway]

51. Well done!

[CakeGrrl]

73. You got it exactly right.

No one will convince me this is NOT true:

"Putin is suddenly the cool guy here because he took in Eddie Snowden and gave Obama a black eye."

They'll yell and scream all they want that that's not what it's about, but it's the only reason that makes sense.

[HappyMe]

126. I agree.

[eridani]

83. What if we care as about the 98,000 shot or blown up as the 2000 gassed?

What if we don't want to blow up a bunch more people in that country to no obvious end?

The logic of the "American exceptionalist" crowd here is truly astonishing. Putin can't possibly be wrong on LGBT rights and right on American exceptionalism. And we all have to give up using interstate highways because Hitler came up with the idea. And Rand Paul can't possibly be right about NSA spying and have his head up his ass on voting rights and a bunch of other issues.

[pampango]

91. Depends on what is meant by "care". republicans may "care" about a homeless child, but

their "caring" usually does not include personal action or support for government action to do anything about it. Their reaction might more likely be "It's sad, but 'the poor will always be with us'. Life is not fair. It sucks to be poor. Mighty hot weather we're having."

A similar sentiment from conservatives with regard to Syria would be: "The killing is sad, but dictators and the oppressed will always be with us. Life is not fair. It must suck to be Syrian. Mighty hot weather we're having."

They "care" but their caring might not be obvious to a Syrian family living in a refugee camp. I agree that we should care about the 98,000 killed by conventional weapons just as much as those killed by chemical weapons. My concern is that our caring not be summarized by "It must suck to be Syrian."

[eridani]

142. How about having caring summarized by requesting our government to give far more

--aid to the refugees, as well as encouraging every American to donate to Doctors without Borders or Oxfam?

[pampango]

146. Those are great suggestions. Took the words right out of my mouth. n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

85. Beautiful!

And I'm with you with an addition: I'm a liberal black heterosexual woman who supports LBGT rights and I have a personal interest in the issue. GLBT human beings are just that - my fellow human beings. Period. Case closed.

[great white snark]

90. +1

Well said frazzled.

[Progressive dog]

94. k&r

Well Said.

[Bobbie Jo]

96. Excellent post. nt

[treestar]

97. Well said! nt

[Sheepshank]

110. well said!! +1000

[Scurrilous]

112. + 100

[Number23]

114. You are utterly magnificent

I share so much of your disgust with this place. The libertarianism here has run amok and completely OBLITERATED what used to be a place of reasonably intelligent, interesting people. The "we want Kucinich 2008" crew seems quaint and adorable compared to the foolishness that blankets this place now.

It is now a troll cave for people who are woefully uneducated and desperately miserable and want everyone else to be as well. So many of the Popular Kids in this forum have made absolutely no attempt to cover up their utter disgust with all things America and if that means propping up or minimizing the shenanigans of a lunatic gassing his own people or another lunatic putting his own citizens under the jail because of their sexual orientation or religious preferences, these folks are all too happy to do it.

And yes, it is heartless and mean-spirited which is bad enough, but it's the gleeful stupidity that goes with it too that is the main reason there won't be any stars next to my name any time soon. Folks are joyously posting the most idiotic stupidity from Freepers, PNAC'ers and conservatives and as long as it criticizes this president, even if from the most deranged and pointless viewpoints, they still thrilled to kick and rec. And they wonder why the page views, quality of discourse and overall prestige of this place have all dropped like damn stones.

[Gothmog]

132. I also agree with the post

I am a heterosexual Jewish male and I agree with your analysis

[AverageJoe90]

137. There ya go. Great post.

I really wish some people would take their blinders off, you know?

[greatauntoftriplets]

154. I wish that I could recommend this post.

[JaneyVee]

159. Love it.

[riderinthestorm]

8. You're a newbie so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt

but nothing is black and white.

If you came here expecting that kind of discourse then you are at the wrong forum. Women's rights, porn, the Israeli/Palestinian issue, feminism, heck even circumcision and smoker's rights aren't a given on this site.

I'm all for gay rights and have a bi daughter but nothing is cut and dried.

This is a discussion site. Welcome to shades of gray, nuance and discussion. This may get you upset. DU isn't for everyone.

[BlueStreak]

41. Is it not possible to discuss the merits of Putin's argument without being accused of homophobia?

It seems to me that Putin was pretty nearly 100% right in what he wrote in his column. That doesn't mean that I support the gay discrimination in Russia or anywhere else.

Not everything is a gay issue, and trying to make that stretch probably does more harm than good for the LGBT cause.

[dsc]

139. can you imagine writing the same words about say Hitler

or DeKlerk? If so, then OK, but if not, then why not?

[BlueStreak]

147. What does Hitler have to do with anything?

People play the Hitler card when they can't offer a coherent argument..

[dsc]

151. Putin is to gays as Hitler in 33 was to Jews

[MNBrewer]

152. Yes, that is potentially true, depending on how the rest of the incipient gay genocide goes down

in Russia, but what does that have to do with Putin's assessment that American Exceptionalism is pure bullshit (among other things)?

Putin is an anti-gay dictator therefore America IS Exceptional?

[dsc]

153. there is literally nothing Putin can say which I will listen to

He has zero right to lecture any country about human rights and peace. It would be like listening to Rush Limbaugh about avoiding gluttony.

[MNBrewer]

155. It's too bad that your mind is so closed to even hearing his side of the issue

because his view of the issue is vitally important, being as he's in control of one of the world's great powers. You and I may think he's an awful person, but that's beside the point.

In addition to the fact that it will take US and Russia to bring this to a peaceful conclusion, what he said in his article is all basically TRUE (even if certain inconvenient facts are glossed over - as the US also tends to do).

It's at least as true as Obama's claim that he is fully, legally authorized to carry out military strikes against Syrian government targets.

[JustAnotherGen]

86. He's been here since 2011

[kestrel91316]

9. I stood up for the LGBT community here for years.

My support isn't wanted anymore, because I am not perfect.

[NewsCenter28]

10. Indeed

Thanks for your post! To further elaborate on Putin's totalitarian tendencies, I highly recommend a CBC News Network documentary entitled "Putin, Russia and the West" that recently aired. It exposes Putin's coup'd'etat against Former President Medevev and also how he deposed Medevev because he was going after Putin's cronyism and corruption.

Putin=Totalitarian human rights abuser

Obama=First African American President-ends 2 wars-ushers in an era of gay acceptance in the USA, brings universal healthcare to his people and stands up for basic human rights.

I know whose side I am on here.

[gopiscrap]

12. Welcome to DU

[quinnox]

13. WTF? Thanking yourself for your own OP?

Now I have seen everything!

[LittleBlue]

15. He probably failed at logging into his sock puppet account

You can see he's a troll from a zillion miles away.

[quinnox]

17. I guess so!

Or, to give him benefit of the doubt, maybe they meant to reply to an earlier post instead. But I tend to think you are right in your post.

[pnwmom]

25. Right. With your super duper laser vision. n/t

[LittleBlue]

38. The guy just wrote a reply to himself where he said "your"

Come on, seriously.

[pnwmom]

49. The poster obviously made a mistake. Have you never made a mistake? I have.

I've even accidentally responded to my own post instead of the one above it, but that doesn't make me a troll.

[Marr]

131. A mistake that very clearly revealed that he's a sock puppet.

Who do you think you're kidding here?

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Whoops

Hey, good one, Warren!

I mean, uh.

[darkangel218]

67. lol!!!

[LittleBlue]

80. lol

[NewsCenter28]

32. I was thanking Frazzled for her well-written post

Not myself

[bravenak]

40. You gotta click on ' reply to this post'.

It's on the lower right hand corner of the post you want to reply to.

[progressoid]

33. somebody got his/her sock puppets mixed up!

[backscatter712]

125. LOL! Looks like he forgot to click to switch accounts in his persona management software...

Booz Allen might be writing him up for this.

[leftstreet]

26. LOL sockpuppet fail n/t

[cui bono]

57. Bwahaha!!! They forgot to change their log in.

[QC]

115. Do you remember when Political Tiger/Boomerang Diddle came to DU

one drunken night and got his personae mixed up?

It was high comedy, truly an epic DU moment.

[cui bono]

145. No... missed that. n/t

[Marr]

129. LMFAO

omg, log out next time, sock boy.

[MNBrewer]

156. Do you realize how hard we had to fight against Obama in order to get him to

"usher in an era of gay acceptance in the USA"?

We had to push him relentlessly, while certain Democrats screamed at us to "STAAAAAP because Elections!", until he FINALLY "evolved". Even then it was a Biden gaffe that pushed him over the brink on marriage equality.

Is it important that the President FINALLY recognized (for the most part) our equality? Hell yes, but Barack Obama isn't some GLBT Great Emancipator! We've been at the business of emancipating ourselves for decades. It's been OUR struggle, OUR coming out, OUR living our lives that has created this change in society. Not Barack Obama. He came along at the tipping point and tipped along with the rest of society.

[gopiscrap]

11. I'm pro equal rights for the LGBT community

[Xipe Totec]

14. So, bisexual-lean gay man can't possibly be trolls? Good to know.

I'll add that rule to my "who can't possibly be a troll" filtering algorithm.

[Dash87]

16. Those posts are all tongue-in-cheek or sarcastic. Nobody here actually likes Putin.

The whole "Putin" thing started out of sarcastic hyperbole that's usually the normal course of discussion here. Everyone here knows that Putin is a bigoted asshole whose entire "tough guy" image is a great big fraud.

[liberal_at_heart]

18. I have a daughter that is bisexual and I do stand with her against people like Putin. He is not a

great man. However that does not mean I cannot support Snowden and it does not mean I can't agree with what Putin said about the United States. Just like I can agree with Ron and Rand Paul about non intervention foreign policy and legalizing marijuana and still think they are not good men. I am sorry you feel hurt. We do stand with you. I'm sorry if you think we don't.

[MNBrewer]

157. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You know you can be all pro LGBT rights

and dislike Putin highly for his internal policies regarding LGBT russians. I will remind you the US was not that far behind that oh a generation ago, and that some of that you owe to our far RIGHT AMERICAN WING. All this is truly coming from a retreat with some of our own pastors.

And at the same time realize that he did make a few good points in that essay (carrot), while at the same time deploying the Moskva to the Med (stick)

Some of us are beyond binary thought. And while you give two shits about Syria, there are some of us who care about the grand chess game, which this is one more chapter. It goes back further back than the US or Russia as nations, and Russia I include going back to Alexander the Great. It indeed goes back to the bronze age. And it's always been about the Spice.

I posted this as an OP earlier that might be of interest to you though


Breaking News Alert from OutServe-SLDN


Dear Nadin,

There was a ruling today in the OS-SLDN case challenging DoD and VA on recognition of LGBT military and veteran families by DoD and the VA.
Judge Richard Stearns ruled today that OS-SLDN and Chadbourne & Parke clients, led by Maj. Shannon McLaughlin and her wife Casey, are entitled to judgment in their favor. This decision in McLaughlin v. Hagel confirms that Servicemembers, Veterans, and their family members are entitled to equal protection with respect to administration of benefits by both the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Our clients in the case:

Major Shannon McLaughlin, ARNG and Casey McLaughlin
Major Steve Snyder-Hill, USAR and Joshua Snyder-Hill
Chief Warrant Officer 2 (CW2) Charlie Morgan, ARNG and Karen Morgan
Lieutenant Gary Ross, USN and Dan Ross
Lieutenant Colonel Vicki Hudson, USAR and Monika Poxon
Airman First Class (A1C) Daniel Henderson, USAF and Jerret Henderson
Captain Joan Darrah, USN (Retired) and Lynne Kennedy
Colonel Stewart Bornhoft, USA (Retired) and former Lieutenant Stephen McNabb, USN

We urge Secretary Shinseki to immediately provide access to all VA benefits to eligible LGBT Servicemembers, Veterans, and their dependents.

Congratulations to our clients and many thanks to an incredible legal team!

Also a huge thank you to all of our supporters for making this work possible. Without your generous donations this would not have happened.

Sincerely,



John P. Gillespie, Lt Col, USAFR, DC Jeffrey A. Mueller, Maj, USAF
Co-Chair, OutServe-SLDN Board Co-Chair, OutServe-SLDN Board









OutServe-SLDN's CFC # 12111, Copyright © 1995-2013, OutServe-SLDN, All Rights Reserved | Click Here to Unsubscribe

[LiberalAndProud]

22. Is this satire?

I can't comment further until I'm sure.

[pnwmom]

50. Obviously not. n/t

[William769]

23. DU itself is pro LGBT rights.

Most DU members are, some are when it fits their agenda & some well...

BTW, welcome to DU.

[Cha]

29. Hey William~

See # 28 please. It seems like they're giving him a hard time because they don't like what he's saying.

[William769]

31. There have been may of us fighting this fight since the beginning

I know you have been there also (as have many) unfortunately something as simple as human rights is being ignored by a faction & yes we know who they are but that will not stop us in our endeavor top do whats right. Some people will just be on the wrong side of history & some will take their bigotry to the grave.

I wish I could go into more detail but sometimes we have fickled juries and I probably have more than one alert stalker, so I will leave it at that.

Hope this makes sense.

P.S. Love post #28!

[Cha]

36. It does

make sense.. anyway I know what you're talking about.

Good way to put it. "On the wrong side of history".

It was definitely time to bring that post out again. I hope Dustin Lance Black is making some progress on getting Hollywood involved!

[Common Sense Party]

27. What's your BMI?

I'm a bisexual-lean gay man myself

[Bluenorthwest]

99. It means 'leans toward' gay rather than straight, while being bi....

Like Independent voters lean Democratic or lean Republican.....it's easy terminology really.

[Ilsa]

109. Thanks for the explanation.

I wonder if different punctuation would clarify it better, like: Bisexual/leans-gay, or Bisexual, leans-gay. I took your term to mean leaning bisexual, but have lived as a gay man.

[Cha]

28. There's a certain element on here who puff up Putin because

he's their latest hero to save them from Pres Obama.

But, there are so many on this board who stand up for Gay Rights in Russia..

Like this post of mine from August 9th..

Dustin Lance Black Urges Hollywood to Confront Russia's Anti-Gay Laws



snip//

The Oscar-winning writer implores industry readers of The Hollywood Reporter to use their voice -- and economic clout -- to counter Vladimir Putin.

The path of history is littered with moments when progress in this country blinds us to appalling crimes against humanity elsewhere. At this very moment in Russia, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people are facing harassment, arrest and violence under a set of horrific new laws. For their sake, we must take off the blinders and break this cycle of inaction. Hollywood is in a unique position to lead in this fight. The question now is, will we?

For LGBT Americans and the countless advocates in Hollywood who have helped champion the cause of full equality for all, these past few months have been filled with hope and celebration. Every day it seems we are taking a new step forward in this country. The dangerous temptation, however, is that we become content. Just days after the Supreme Court made so many of us feel more American with a pair of favorable marriage-equality rulings, on the other side of the globe, Russian President Vladimir Putin enacted some of the most vehemently anti-gay laws the world has ever known. The most dangerous weapon he has against his own LGBT citizens is the apathy that may spring from international ignorance and our own potential domestic contentment.

Even worse than what these Russian laws target is what they tolerate. Hate is spreading to all corners of Russian society. The head of the Russian Orthodox Church called marriage equality a "sign of the apocalypse." Roving groups of skinheads have attacked LGBT pride demonstrations, leaving blood on public streets.
There are even profoundly disturbing reports of thugs posing as teenagers on the Internet and luring gay youth out into the open and then harassing, torturing and humiliating these young people before releasing videos of their tortured victims online."

snip//

"Because the truth is, the other thing that will soon be noted by Putin and LGBT Russians alike is our industry's silence and apathy. And LGBT Russians living in fear and putting their lives on the line deserve better than our inaction and silence.".

There's More..
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/russias-anti-gay-laws-dustin-600437

Dustin Lance Black

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_Lance_Black

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023430113

Good wrap up of PBO's record on GLBT Rights, NewsCenter..

"So....a President that has done more for gay rights than any U.S. president in history from benefit coverage to federal employees, to repeal of DADT, to not enforcing DOMA, to supporting same sex marriage to arguing against Prop 8 and DOMA at the Supreme Court and whose 2 justice appointments were critical in getting these 2 acts overturned, is much maligned on DU while a person who does not subscribe to the human values that I thought most of us here on DU did subscribe to (that's why I've been here as a lurker and poster for 6 years now!) is elevated to folk hero status".

[BlueStreak]

43. That is a false dichotomy

People who agree with what Putin wrote are not inherently against Obama. I'd wager the vast majority of people at this site who agree with Putin's statement also campaigned for Obama.

And agreeing with what Putin wrote has no bearing whatsoever on any gay issues. He didn't write anything about gay issues in that column.

If he ever writes a column talking about the virtues of persecuting gays, I will be against that.

[Summer Hathaway]

65. "I'd wager the vast majority of people at this site who agree

... with Putin's statement also campaigned for Obama."

I'd wager that a vast majority of the people on this site who claim to have campaigned for Obama never did any such thing.

There are people here who actually DID campaign for Obama - they canvassed for him, phone-banked for him, contributed money to his campaign. But for the most part, you won't ever hear that from them - because they don't feel a need to mention it over and over, in order to establish their 'Dem creds' on a message board.

"And agreeing with what Putin wrote has no bearing whatsoever on any gay issues. He didn't write anything about gay issues in that column."

So unless Putin specifically addresses 'gay issues', we should all just pretend that he's not actually DOING what he is doing to the GLBT individuals in his own country?

"Please listen to what Mr. Hitler has to say here - because he doesn't say anything about 'the Jewish problem' in this column."

[cui bono]

75. So according to you anyone who says they campaigned for Obama is lying. Okay....

Maybe people need to mention it because they are constantly being accused of hating Obama just because they criticize his policies and actions. Do you not see how that creates a need to establish where one stood in terms of supporting Obama? And who made up this rule that if you really did something you're not supposed to say you did because that proves you never did it?

Secondly, you completely missed the point about Putin and LGBT. Bluestreak never said Putin isn't actually discriminating against the LGBT community, s/he said "And agreeing with what Putin wrote has no bearing whatsoever on any gay issues. He didn't write anything about gay issues in that column." How do you even get out of that that Bluestreak said Putin isn't doing anything to LGBT in his own country??? Please connect the dots. It's so obvious that doesn't compute I'm having a hard time wording my explanation to you on why you're so far off the mark.

Oh, yeah, bring Hitler into it. Sheesh.

I see your and raise you...

[Summer Hathaway]

143. I am rather startled

by your lack of reading comprehension.

How you got "anyone who says they campaigned for Obama is lying" out of what I said is mind-boggling.

"There are people here who actually DID campaign for Obama ... But for the most part, you won't ever hear that from them."

And for the most part, you won't. That's because they don't feel the need to establish their Dem bona fides on DU. On the other hand, there are posters here who feel the need to constantly talk about how hard they worked for Obama, gave money until it hurt, etc. A lot of those posters will also post about how they saw through Obama from the start, never trusted him, and so on - but somehow campaigned for him tirelessly, and voted for him twice.

Does not compute.

"Bluestreak never said Putin isn't actually discriminating against the LGBT community."

And exactly WHERE did I say that they had said that? I didn't, did I?

"And agreeing with what Putin wrote has no bearing whatsoever on any gay issues. He didn't write anything about gay issues in that column." How do you even get out of that that Bluestreak said Putin isn't doing anything to LGBT in his own country???"

Again, I never said any such thing. The question more properly is: How do YOU get that out of my post?

What I DID say was: "So unless Putin specifically addresses 'gay issues', we should all just pretend that he's not actually DOING what he is doing to the GLBT individuals in his own country?"

In the realm of very plain English, that statement could not POSSIBLY be construed as saying "Bluestreak said Putin isn't doing anything to LGBT in his own country."

So before you go lecturing people about "connecting the dots", you might try the simple exercise of comprehending plain English when you read it.

The Hitler reference was right on. Bluestreak seems to believe that because Putin's column wasn't about GLBT issues, his record on those issues should be set aside while one reads his drivel on other issues. That's like telling Jews they should try to appreciate what Hitler wrote about architecture or history, because it isn't about exterminating over six million people.

Putin's record is well known - his past, his present, his words and his actions. He is a vile, contemptible person. The fact that there are people on DU literally drooling over his NYT piece is mind-boggling - as though Americans should just 'forget' the man who wrote those words, what he has done, and what he continues to do.

I will say this without hesitation: Had Putin's NYT piece been about his respect and admiration for Obama, the same posters who are praising Putin now would be reminding everyone of what kind an evil man he is, and would be screaming that ANYONE who thinks his words matter are ignorant fools who are choosing to ignore his horrendous behavior.

And that's the fact of the matter.

[cui bono]

144. You know what? I think you're right, I misread last night and read too much into your post.

Should have gone to bed earlier. I apologize for that.

I do stand by my reasons as to why people have the need to mention they campaigned for Obama.

And I think you are doing the same with Bluestreak's comment about Putin that I did with your last post. S/he in no way said we should ignore Putin's LGBT actions. LGBT was not brought up, doesn't mean we are supposed to pretend it didn't happen.

[Summer Hathaway]

148. Been there, done that.

It is a - a charming peccadillo? - of we night-owls, often offering up our best arguments in response to posts as we saw them at the time, only to realize in the morning that what we thought we saw wasn't really there.

And I, too, stand by my statement that people who most often feel a "need" to talk about how hard they campaigned for Obama are trying to push their "Dem creds" with all the sincerity of a door-to-door vacuum-cleaner salesman.

I think Bluestreak very much advocated ignoring Putin's behavior by saying, "And agreeing with what Putin wrote has no bearing whatsoever on any gay issues. He didn't write anything about gay issues in that column."

Again there is this notion that one should not consider the man behind the words, because these particular NYT's words "have no bearing whatsoever on any gay issues". And yet again, I wouldn't invite Jews to take to heart Hitler's writings on things that "have no bearing whatsoever on The Final Solution.

When there is a need to separate the man from the words, it is only because the man is suspect - which makes his words worthless.

[cui bono]

149. I can see what you're saying but I really don't think, and I didn't take away,

that Bluestreak was saying that to mean that we should ignore that Putin is, or pretend that Putin isn't, discriminating against LGBT. I really think they were simply saying they were only addressing what was said in the OpEd.

But like I said, I see what you're saying.

[Summer Hathaway]

164. We disagree on many things.

But I see what you're saying, too.

Maybe if we all tried to 'see' what each other was saying, we'd understand each other a lot better - we still might not agree, but we'd understand.

Just a crazy thought in the wee hours of the mornin'.

[cui bono]

56. The people who are puffing Putin up are the ones who keep posting the threads attempting to mock

him. That's the only place I've seen anyone calling him a hero and it's the other hero worshippers projecting.

God DU is so idiotic these days.

[Tigress DEM]

30. I'm FOR tolerance AND Gay Rights, but sometimes change begins in very odd ways....

IF Putin can help in the Syrian situation, let him. Maybe a success like that could open the dialog on other issues.

We have to live in this world, deal with the cards we are dealt and sometimes enjoy the irony of who comes to our aid when their other behaviors demonstrate complete and total disregard for just about everything.

We've won over former right wingers. We've probably converted a few trolls or at least made them think more than they did before. We heard cats. Our tolerance IS real, but we all have our sticking points.

I can't change Russia from here, but if being grateful for real help on an issue that is ALSO a huge human rights violation... could give Putin a face saving out that may be the beginning of other discussions. I'd say we are back to old fashioned, frustrating diplomacy which means no one gets exactly what they want, but some progress gets made on key issues through years of careful, just about artful planning for ultimate success.

Yes, he's in that terribly prejudiced group who can't treat gays with respect or even human dignity. BUT IF - IF his bottom line is not being able to be seen as standing by like a bag of trash while the whole world watches children killed in a horrific fashion... IF that little chink is there in the armor, maybe progress can be made in other areas.


Applauding someone for doing the right thing isn't turning our back on LGBT community. It's encouraging the best in someone who hasn't done much of that and might find out they like it. Don't think our complete mission changes because we adapt to what IS. This is survival to keep working for the tolerance and respect we see as the end goal. Lot of stuff can be cleaned up between here and there.

You don't teach tolerance by being judgmental of people you want to see change when they are doing something helpful. You teach tolerance by rewarding tolerant behavior and rejecting intolerant behavior.

[NewsCenter28]

35. Thanks and to Liberalandproud-no I was deadly serious-not satire

Thanks Tigress. I am a bit more understanding now of those who are sympathetic towards Putin on this issue due to your insightful post. I'll stand down a little.

As far as President Obama goes - he saved my life. I will be a defender and strong supporter of his to the very end no matter what. I hope that doesn't bother too many here on DU

[Cha]

37. I want to thank for that NC.. that's

my attitude, too.

[Tigress DEM]

45. But I DO get you have every right to be pissed as He double toothpicks at Putin.

Every voice matters, I just didn't want you to give up hope on the equality front.

And honestly. I did not know it was that bad in Russia for the gays. For EVERYBODY, yes, but the gays in particular. No I did not know that until this week. So with his stepping into the limelight with this "good deed" his other stuff is looking pretty stinky in comparison.

Russia used to like to be the big bad cop in that area. Could prove interesting.

I support Obama, but because so much of what he does directly gets opposed I wonder sometime if he isn't just playing some plain old reverse psychology in these situations to get his actual agenda items taken care of. He has kids so I'm sure he knows how to work that game.

[go west young man]

66. I've been to Russia 7 times and believe me

the people that have it worst are immigrants and people of color. They are often beaten publicly by racist skinhead nationalists who, ironically, are no fans of Putin. In Russia they are called patzan. They are young aimless ignorant thugs who look for victims to beat and steal from. They are Putin's biggest problem domestically. They also constantly assault and rob young women for their cellphones, cameras, jewelry and money. They see girls as easy targets in the huge prospekts (Stalin style tower blocks)which blanket Russia, the largest country in the world. Putin has cut crime in Russia by two thirds in 12 years. The skinhead nationalists intensely dislike him. In the US everyone seems to think these nationalist thugs are working for Putin when the exact opposite is happening. Judging from what I've read at DU the American propaganda machine is working pretty effectively. It's ironic how the propaganda works on this side of the pond when we talk about Russia. Nationalists despise Putin because he is changing Russia for the better. The statistics in all areas are very favorable especially in regards to education. Russian children are statistically more advanced than European children according to the World Bank. Almost all are learning English now and most speak 2 or more languages. My wife who is 30 speaks 5.

Russia is a very complex country and one that is very stuck in it's ways. A guy like Putin isn't going to change it overnight. No one is. But the economy of Russia has grown by 7.5% every year since Putin became their leader. That growth translates into jobs for young people which brings hope, optimism, a chance to have a decent life, and the potential to develop one''s mind. In other words, I see hope for Russia in the long run on the LGBT issue partly because of Putins economic policies.

The LGBT thing is making a lot more waves in the West than it does in Russia. The sad fact of the matter is that a large swath of Russia is anti gay from what I've seen. It's a generalization but one that I think rings true. The majority of middle aged and older Russians I have spoken with showed disgust when I brought up the issue, which surprised me. It was an eye opener as some of these people seemed pretty cool prior to that. Then all of a sudden they showed ugliness in regards to a topic that I thought was normal and accepted.

The youth of Russia are the true hope of the country and interestingly many that I've met are pro Putin. They believe it could always be worse in Russia. They have a saying "Eta Russia"..which means it's fucked up but what can you do. The small demonstrations that are shown against Putin over here in the states are not even raising an eye in Russia because the majority of the youth do support him from what I've seen and heard first hand.

Putin as a person is no saint but these issues are not simply yes and no/black and white when we talk about world leaders. They are multi-dimensional. Personally I find a lot of the emotional feelings in these threads on Putin pretty simplistic and not grounded in a proper understanding of international affairs and I feel the same way in regards to President Obama. We can't have it all. None of us can. But we can be glad for the positive change we do acquire as and when it comes. Eta Russia. DU isn't gonna change that and neither are you and I. The Russian people might...in 20 or 30 years.

[Tigress DEM]

162. I'm simply saying if a world leader will make ANY positive move, let them.

Ironically, it is here on DU that I learned that despite a lot of awful things he did, Sadaam Hussein actually improved many things for his country as well. Does it make him the "best" kind of leader out there? Obviously not when you balance in the rest. BUT there is a huge contingent here on DU that is about the "facts are facts" and if there is something good about people they otherwise don't like or respect, they aren't going to gloss over it and pretend it does not exist.

Now would I vote for a Putin or Sadaam type if I had a choice, no. But if someone is already in office and you can work with them in a positive way, I think that increases the likelihood of being able to have discussions on issues that are complex and controversial.

It's hard here to get real facts about our own government and our journalism didn't used to be so full of propaganda. Russia has a longer history of managing the content of their news so I'm not sure what to think about those youth gangs or how much of the LGBT abuses are top down from the government and how much is entrenched in the society.

My thought is that we deal with our own stuff here. Provide the example that you can treat everyone equal and the world doesn't blow up, people don't start marrying their cows or cheating on their wives with llamas. Show the world by example that WE ALL DO BETTER when we ALL do better. By being the example we show that IT CAN BE DONE.

That puts the pressure back onto the world stage. IF it can be done without causing damage, then why don't you just do it? We keep telling the world and our own countrymen and women that Equality FOR ALL really is the best thing to do and that all this "imagined damage" certain groups fear is the hogwash coming out of unclear minds that need to keep their minds out of other people's bedrooms.

[go west young man]

163. Agreed.

Especially in regards to Iraq. They had women in college back in the 70's. Pretty advanced for a ME country. From Wiki:

The Golden Years:1970-1984
Iraq’s education system was one of the best in the region during this period of time, and highly praised throughout. By 1984, major accomplishments had been achieved, which include but are not limited to:
• Gross Enrollment Rates rising over 100%
• Almost complete gender parity in enrollment
• Illiteracy among 15-45 age group declined to less than 10%
• Dropout/Repetition rates were the lowest in the Middle East and North Africa [MENA] region
• Spending in Education reached 6% of Gross National Product [GNP] and 20% of Iraq’s total government budget

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. I guess everyone who has ever owned a VW Bug supports Hitler too.

[shireen]

39. Who is DU?

If DU doesn't even stand up for the LGBT community, than who does? Who will?

DU is not a single entity. At any one moment, it hosts thousands of different people with just as many different opinions. Just because one person expresses an anti-LGBT view, do not assume everyone agrees.

DU is a place, not a person. People come here to talk for many reasons, about a myriad of issues.

And that's my opinion, not DU's.

[MellowDem]

42. DU recs posts that praise the Pope when he farts...

Apparently, praising a homophobic bigot that leads an institution that continues to do great harm to the LGBT community is no big deal, so I doubt Putin is.

It's just DUers with lots of privilege being insensitive, not exactly anything new. Putin or the Pope or etc. makes some points that they agree with and feel strongly about, and they don't care so much about the gay hating thing in comparison. Usually isn't malicious, just oblivious and naive.

[Tigress DEM]

48. Well at least when he farts he's doing something productive.

Finding common ground and working that bit is part of the actual structure of diplomacy. It isn't for everyone.

Some people really do need to simply be pointing out the injustice because that is what matters to them, what hurts, what needs attention in their opinion. We need everyone with all different skills and opinions.

We need the diggers who get down to the truth so we have actual facts to work with.

We need people who are passionate and emotional and remind us of our humanity.

We sometimes need to just laugh at the irony of who shows up beside us when a real fight begins. I was surprised to find myself facing war mongers at a peace rally in DC and having some of their own actually listen TO ME and keep their own in check. You find little tiny patches of integrity in the most unlikely places at times. I like to water it and see if more grows. That's my thing.

I don't know much about Pope Francis yet, but I hope he is educated enough that he isn't confusing pedophilia with being gay. Two consenting adult priests, I agree. A priest using his power and authority to abuse a child, not so much. Male or female a kid is a kid and doesn't need that kind of "love" from a trusted adult in any situation.

[pnwmom]

53. I appreciate that you're withholding judgment until you learn more.

Here's something:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-j-reid-jr/the-pope-said-gay-what-ha_b_3683862.html

I had to do some searching, but I located a full transcript of the Pope's interview heard 'round the world while flying back from World Youth Day in Brazil. I wanted to see the precise language used by the Pope. And while my Italian is imperfect, his choice of words are obvious to those who know no Italian at all. Although otherwise speaking in Italian, the Pope broke into English to say "gay." "If a person is gay, and follows the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge?" is my own translation. Gay people, he went on, must not be marginalized. Para. 2358 of the Church's Catechism, the Pope reminded his listeners, demands that society not discriminate against gays. (For the transcript see Letter 78, The Moynihan Letters, July 30, 2013).

[Tigress DEM]

58. For this and other reasons, I do feel THIS Pope is a much better Pope than the previous ones.

Pope John Paul was sincere, but SO conservative. He was undoing a lot of progress made in Vatican II.

Pope Benedict ---- NEVER could stomach him. From his years as a Nazi youth to the red shoe swagger and his willingness to buddy up with the right wing.... not someone I could respect.

But Pope Francis took a very humble moniker of someone in the Catholic faith who stood up for the poor and was inclusive and worked for peace even though he came from a privileged situation. He took on poverty and did a lot of good in his time.

The Church (writ big) has lost so many members to this insistence upon hatred as a doctrine, including myself.

I hesitate to be overly optimistic, but my hope for Pope Francis actually doing good is a lot higher than my aspirations for Putin really changing. But who knows?

[pnwmom]

60. I feel much the same.

I wish he was reaching out more to women in the Church, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. He's clearly nothing like Ratzinger.

[Tigress DEM]

62. And IF his ONLY claim to fame is that he stops the war on gays by the Catholic Church....

He will have accomplished a MAJOR miracle in our lifetime.

[pnwmom]

64. That's certainly true! n/t

[pnwmom]

52. Pope Francis doesn't deserve to be compared to Putin, but anti-Catholic bigots

never miss an opportunity, do they?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-j-reid-jr/the-pope-said-gay-what-ha_b_3683862.html

I had to do some searching, but I located a full transcript of the Pope's interview heard 'round the world while flying back from World Youth Day in Brazil. I wanted to see the precise language used by the Pope. And while my Italian is imperfect, his choice of words are obvious to those who know no Italian at all. Although otherwise speaking in Italian, the Pope broke into English to say "gay." "If a person is gay, and follows the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge?" is my own translation. Gay people, he went on, must not be marginalized. Para. 2358 of the Church's Catechism, the Pope reminded his listeners, demands that society not discriminate against gays. (For the transcript see Letter 78, The Moynihan Letters, July 30, 2013).

[Tigress DEM]

59. NOT an anti-Catholic bigot, thank you very much. Former Catholic. Discouraged with Church politics.

Afraid to hope, but willing to see some real change in the Church.

GLAD to see some real change in the Church. Support all steps in the direction of REAL tolerance and love for our fellow human beings down the block, in my town, in my church (Methodist now due to Benedict and John Paul's overly conservative policies) in my state, country and around the world.

[pnwmom]

61. I know you aren't! I was responding to post #42. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

63. oops - my mis read. time to go to bed I think. Nite everyone. nt

[jberryhill]

82. I.E. "As long as they don't have sex"

You seem to think this quote:

"If a person is gay, and follows the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge?"

Is somehow accepting of gay people.

First - It is a conditional statement.


Second, and more importantly - He was talking about priests, who are ALL required to be celibate.

The pontiff was traveling aboard a turbulent overnight flight to Rome from his first overseas trip—a journey marked by his plain-spoken appeals to Catholics to reground the church in grass-roots ministry—when he broached the delicate issue of how the Catholic hierarchy should respond to clerics who are gay, though not sexually active. In doing so, he departed from the posture that has long shaped papal thinking on gay priests.

"Who am I to judge a gay person of goodwill who seeks the Lord?" the pontiff told a news conference in response to a question. "You can't marginalize these people."

Even that report, from Time, demonstrates complete ignorance of what has been a longstanding policy in the Catholic church in relation to gay priests - they have to be celibate, just like straight priests.

The Catholic church doesn't teach that it is a sin to "be gay" - it's engaging in homosexual sex which is the problem. In a situation where everyone is supposed to not be having sex of ANY sort, then it's not even an issue.

As for lay people:

Is it okay to have even straight sex outside of marriage? No, it's not.

Can gay people get married? No, they can't.

Well then there you have it - it's okay to be gay, JUST NEVER HAVE SEX.

What an oh-so-enlightened position that is.

[pnwmom]

88. I'm guessing you never heard he supported civil unions in Buenos Aires.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/08/07/pope-francis-and-gays-a-misinterpretation-or-a-hint-of-the-future/

Francis is something of a maverick among bishops on the question of gays. When he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he is known to have supported a civil union for the sake of pastoral ministry and civil rights–though he was voted down by his fellow bishops. He is bringing his support for gays to his ministry in the Vatican. More important than his comment at the airline press conference is his action. The day after he spoke those memorable words the Vatican announced the resignation of Bishop Simon Bakot of Yaoundé, former president of the National Bishops’ Conference of Cameroon. Bishop Bakot did not resign for reason of age as Catholic bishops are required to do when they reach 75; he is only 66. Nor is he known to have been in ill health or under scrutiny for financial reasons or his own sexual misconduct. The sole reason he is famous is for his staunch opposition to gays. He lumps them with pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality and calls them an affront to God’s creation. He threatens to ‘out’ clergy he opposed by revealing their sexual orientation. He has even been a vocal public supporter of Cameroon’s national day of hatred of gays. The fact that his resignation was accepted the day after Francis’s now famous utterance casts new light on the Vatican’s stance toward gays.

So what are we to make of Francis’s declaration “Who am I to judge?” The first thing is to see it in a theological context that puts the person and the person’s relationship with God to the forefront–not sexual orientation of any sort. But in addition, one should not miss the historical context of Francis’s own program as bishop in Argentina, one just recently reinforced in his office as bishop of Rome. He may not judge a gay’s quest for God–though he would support it–but he surely has passed judgement on a fellow bishop utters terribly negative judgments on gays, judgements that will no longer be tolerated as long as Francus is pope. Given Francis’s theology of the papacy as ministry to his brother bishops, Francis just may be suggesting that they too should see the office of bishop as one whose prime duty I that of shepherd, bringing people, all people, into a closer relationship with God.

Maureen A. Tilley is Professor of Theology and Medieval Studies at Fordham University.

[Bluenorthwest]

103. He oppossed marriage equality in Argentina, like many on the right he hoped

to pawn off 'civil unions' as a way to prevent us from having actual equality permanently. The people of Argentina rejected his atavism and passed marriage equality law.
To claim he was supporting equality is utter and total bullshit. He got famous as an opponent of equality, he said marriage equality was 'an attack on God'. He also said that adoption by gay parents is a form of child abuse. Do you agree with him on all of this? If not, why promote it?
"Pope Francis went on to describe gay marriage as a "move of the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God" and asked for lawmakers to "not act in error", the Post said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pope-francis-describes-gay-marriage-destructive-attack-on-gods-plan/1087934/

[Vashta Nerada]

124. Yeah, but he still thinks gays will go to hell if they engage in intercourse.

So, your argument for Francis is invalid.

[Union Scribe]

71. Yes, the Pope is tremendously popular on DU...

You found that profound enough to put in your journal, too. Bravo.

[MellowDem]

138. For a homophobic bigot, he sure is...

I put everything in my journal... So I can find it... But rank hypocrisy is always profound to me, and Pope praising sure ranks up there

[LostOne4Ever]

141. I will give the pope one thing

He is one hell of a spin doctor.

I don't think I have seen anyone else do such a good job of making the RCC LOOK more tolerant and accepting while it is anything but in reality.

[gtar100]

46. I stand up for LGBT rights. Period.

It's sick what Putin is doing to the LGBT people in Russia. They deserve none of this bigotry and discrimination. I have lost any shred of respect for him I might have had. Whatever he does as a leader in this world is but politics. He's proven himself to be a shallow human being.

[Tarheel_Dem]

54. It's a headscratcher ain't it? I've seen arguments here that Obama is...

just as bad as Putin because Donnie McClurkin sang at an event, and Obama went to that other preacher's church. False equivalencies are in vogue all over DU these days. Can you say hypocrisy? ODS is a real affliction, and constructing silly strawmen is one of the more severe symptoms.

[cui bono]

55. There is no folk hero status of Putin that I've seen except for the fantasy one of a certain

faction of DU. They are promoting the simplistic idea that because someone agrees with one thing Putin says or does, or thinks he handled something well that he's now their hero. Well, that's most likley just projection as they are the ones who have a hero that they believe does no wrong.

Don't be fooled by all their Putin threads. They put them up to attempt to ridicule and so they can act like schoolyard bullies and all gather together somewhere and pat each other on the back. It makes them feel good I guess.

[go west young man]

68. Your right on the money.

It is simply projection. Irony abounds as once it was Russia that had such blind nationalist pride. Now it's our turn. The only difference is American exceptionalism projection comes steeped in sarcastic self flagellation. As Nadine pointed out.. they are acting like a gang of childish schoolyard bullies. I like DU when it has serious debate that challenges me to search things out for myself. These pedantic little name calling sessions grow pretty tiresome. Especially so when it's 20 gnats spitting vitriol and only 2 or 3 people that offer serious discussion. The board used to be much more in depth as far as geopolitics goes.

"All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject." Thus what is unconscious in the recipient will be projected back onto the projector, precipitating a form of mutual acting out. Carl Gustov Jung

[NewsCenter28]

74. I'll grant

that maybe the Putin praise that I've seen and been so disgusted by is from a variety of sources and message boards that I've read. I do think that a couple of threads here like the avatar thread (which I now see to be a joke)and the one about DU dividing into pro-Putin and Pro-Obama factions set me off.

President Clinton was my hero before President Obama came along and I think I'm less inclined to judge him harshly over LGBT issues than Putin because I know his true character and set of values are good. I also know that President Clinton only signed DOMA due to political expediency at the time.

[cui bono]

77. Being as all politicians are, well, politicians, it might be wise not to think of them as heroes.

I would just watch what they do and either agree or disagree with it. We can see on this board the danger of thinking of a politician as a hero, it makes it hard to see any weakness or faults since no one wants their hero to disappoint them.

[NYC_SKP]

95. What is the avatar thread?

TIA

[cyberswede]

122. trumad jokingly asked for a Putin avatar

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023652208

[NYC_SKP]

123. Oh, yeah, Duh. I got one right here, I'll go post it:

[Marr]

128. Exactly. It's the sort of black and white, 'with us or against us' nonsense that authoritarians seem

to go to as a matter of reflex. I don't think they can help it.

[AverageJoe90]

136. As much as I wish that was true, I'm afraid there are some who DO act that way, even if not.........

*intentionally* so. (althought there probably ARE a few genuine Putin fanboys on here......if so, shame on them.).

And in fact, if there's been any major bullying.....I will refer to the pro-Putin side.

[Yo_Mama]

69. But support for Putin on this issue

does not translate to support for Russian anti-gay legislation.

Your post seems muddled to me. If you polled DU I am sure you would not find support for Russian anti-gay legislation.

Are DUers not allowed to think Clinton was a good president because of DOMA?

[MNBrewer]

158. I didn't vote for his re-election because of DOMA

Nor did I vote for Paul Wellstone's re-election because he voted Yes on DOMA.

[mick063]

70. I support equal rights with respect to gays.

My universe, however, does not center around incorporating this into every political debate.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Yes, it's true that a) Putin's stance on gay rights is appalling, and b) even that is far from being the worst thing about him.

But many of the specifics of his statement on Syria are correct (although they're almost certainly deeply disingenuous - Russia's main goal in Syria is to preserve influence in the region, not to protect human rights).

[David__77]

76. What utter and complete nonsense.

I would think that gay people would be sensitive to the oppression of others - I know I am. That includes the oppression of whole nations and peoples by US aggression and interference.

[dkf]

79. Good grief are you saying we need to choose war or lgbts?

I don't get disliking Putin's pulling us from the brink because we favor gay rights.

That's messed up.

My question is how do YOU think we would have stopped the bombs without Putin? Do you regret he did what he did?

[backscatter712]

102. Exactly. I'm sick of the black-and-white bullshit.

We're Democrats. We're supposed to be the grown-up party, even though some of are politicians aren't, and that we can see shades of gray, and acknowledge "I agree with him on this statement, but not on that issue."

[Laughing Mirror]

81. "I could give 2 shits about Syria"

That's quite obvious.

I don't think those of us who are LGBT people on DU are actively looking for a "bisexual-lean gay man" (whatever that is) to tell us what our views must be about either President Putin or President Obama or the way those two major players are handling the Syria situation.

LGBT people, of which I am one, are, for the most part, well aware of Russia's treatment of us, as we are well aware of how our own country has treated and is treating us. That is why those of us who care are always ready to fight discrimination and bigotry wherever it happens, which is practically everywhere.

So before you come on here plaintively crying about who will "stand up for the LGBT community," may I suggest that it is sleazy and dishonest to use the persecution of LGBT people as emotional blackmail in an attempt to justify your dismissal of a real solution to the civil war in Syria.

So I don't read anything helpful in your post, and I think you'd be better off going back to lurking. If you don't give 2 shits about Syria, how can you honestly expect us to believe you don't really give 2 shits about LGBT people too?

[mnhtnbb]

84. The world is complex. Very complex.

And in many cases, so are people. Lots of shades of grey. Room for someone to not be totally evil.

That said, I will tell you that both my sons are gay. It makes no difference to either my hubby or myself.
We love and are proud of both of them.

Right now, the youngest one has just arrived in Berlin on a Fulbright Scholarship. He will be there for
10 months doing his project on an Austrian playwright--Max Reinhardt--whose works are archived
at one of the universities in Berlin. In college, this son took Russian--as well as being a double
major in German and Comparative Lit. Before he left, he was talking about going to Russia for
a semester--or more--to study in Moscow when in grad school (which he hopes to start fall 2014
when back from Berlin).

We have talked about two trips while our son is in Berlin--one is already booked this fall to include
Vienna, Salzburg, Prague, and Berlin. The other one--early next summer--is tentative and projected
to be based around a cruise that would include Stockholm, Copenhagen, and St. Petersburg. Not
long ago I told hubby that I wasn't so sure I wanted to include St. Petersburg because of the
attitude Russia is showing toward its gay population. But what astonished me the most was that
my gay son is willing to put himself at risk in order to study in Moscow. I told him that I would worry
a lot for him--Russian is no place to be in jail--and was he really sure he wanted to do that?

It remains to be seen how his grad school situation will develop. He has been living this summer
with an SO--a former professor of his--and they have plans for at least 3 trips together in Europe
while my son is there on his Fulbright. My guess is that his SO may be willing to travel in Russia
as well, although we haven't spoken of it.

So...I am always ready to stand up and support the gay community. I find it amazing what Putin
has done regarding Syria...but it doesn't make me any less critical of his stand on gay rights. In the same
regard, I applaud what Obama has done for gay rights, but it doesn't make me less critical of his willingness
to go along with Teapublicans, or his support for Wall Street, or his willingness to let Bush and cronies off
the hook for all the lies that led to the Iraq War. I am disgusted that Obama has given that gang of
war criminals a pass.

So...the world is complex. I wish it were easier, but it's not.

[JoeyT]

87. I see an awful lot of people suddenly

super duper concerned about LGBT rights. Many of whom are the same people that screamed at LGBT people to STFU about Rick Warren and eventually shouted for DU to be purged of LGBT people that didn't fall in line.

If you've been here as a lurker for six years, you might remember that.

[Puglover]

92. Ain't that the truth.

A few posts the Mcclurkin thing is used again in order to accuse gay DUers of not being loyal enough. Too f'n funny. Talk about a disconnect.

[liberal_at_heart]

106. We're allowed to be pro-LGBT now that Obama is supporting it. Back when he was against it democrats

were not as LGBT friendly. It all has to do with where Obama stands. Instead of politicians moving to where their contintuents want them to move, the people have to move to where the politicians are. Well when it comes to basic rights and freedoms that just doesn't work very well. People will always fight for freedom no matter where the president or the party is.

[Bluenorthwest]

108. Many of the folks affecting great concern also refuse to join the Olympics boycott

So they don't really mind Putin and the anti gay laws at all. Obama says it would be wrong to boycott, so they all support the Putin Games.

[MNBrewer]

161. ^^^ THIS

[QC]

150. Yep. Glad someone else noticed it. n/t

[MNBrewer]

160. I've noticed that also, it's so heartwarming

[trumad]

89. Wow! I'm honored to have my Op title in the second line of your awesome Op.

Hey-- let me just say that I'm pro gay guy--gay gal.

Want me to prove it.

A gay guy cuts my hair--a gay woman does my taxes.

I know both of them hence making me a non-anti gay type of person.

[backscatter712]

100. "...and some of my friends are black!" n/t

[trumad]

113. Oh I forgot that

hence I'm not a racist.

[backscatter712]

98. To be fair, I think the Putin-avatar-request post was made tongue-in-cheek...

but you're right - there are some homophobic assholes here - look at the shitstorm that ensued when Chelsea Manning announced her transition.

[backscatter712]

101. Just because I think Putin said some smart things in his editorial...

...doesn't mean I support Putin in general, or that I don't acknowledge that he's got an obvious agenda, or that I support his repression of the LGBT* community.

It's the same logical fallacy as "HURR! You support teh Snowden? YUO ARE A PAULBOT!"

[Xyzse]

104. I don't quite understand why two far apart issues get combined like that

Not everyone can be monolithic and be black and white. Not everyone lets one issue guide them throughout every single opinion. Some even can separate the issue from a person.

By being unable to separate issues and take a person in through all their facets one misses teachable moments and opportunities for understanding.

One can laud someone for their stance in one subject and deride them from another. That should be possible, even in other things.

I.E.:
The ACA has quite a few things that I would promote, while aspects of it, particularly how it has been delayed due to lack of clarity and the fact that they did not even try to go towards the Universal route is something I still slam.

Obama in his repeal of DOMA and others, but I tend to be upset with him in regards to education.
---
So, the topic is on Putin... Someone like him, in particular Russia can not be dismissed. One has to build consensus on many different topics so that understanding and compromises could be reached in subjects with disagreements.

I'm sorry, but to me, those two topics are separate and should be taken apart from the person itself.

Any how, Putin to me is just the leader of Russia. He is someone we have to deal with. My view on him is mixed.

I can laugh at him, his expression when he was looking at naked protesters was hilarious and priceless.
I shake my head and just laugh even more when I see pictures of him trying to act manly.
I have to recognize his ruthlessness and capability in leading his country.

Bottom line, one subject should not be the sole method or reason for judging anything. Then again, there are only a few subjects that I can be self righteous in.

Sorry you feel that way, but people were widely condemning Putin in regards to the LBGT issue here. I tend to like the fact that we have a dynamic and evolving point of view rather than something static.

[Drale]

105. Putin is a KGB Wannabe Dictator who is going to be remembered as such ./nt

[Bluenorthwest]

107. Some of us have been speaking out against Russian anti gay laws since before

Russia was the flavor of the month. Oddly, many on DU who claim to be very opposed to Russia and Putin are refusing to join the boycott of Putin's Olympic Follies because Obama says it would be wrong to boycott a viciously bigoted country.
So while the LGBT community pushes boycott of the Olympics, Obama and his supporters want Putin to have a big success at the Olympics and they will interrupt their anti Putin message to join in Putin's Ski Party. Lots of big talk, but in the end they will support the Olympics, Putin will profit from them and the 'moderates' get what they want, another double speaking hypocrisy opportunity.
This is from July. Harvey speaks for me:

[KamaAina]

116. "Hey Earl G...can we have a Putin avatar?"

was followed by this:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

119. Now, now, that doesn't reconcile with...

let's shit-stir on DU 'cuz I have nothing better to do in life.

"Genuinely hurt." Totally believable!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

118. "I could give 2 shits about Syria right now."

DISGUSTING.

[Throd]

121. I interpereted the request for a Putin avatar as a smart-ass way to make a point.

Nobody here really idolizes Putin. I think they are conceding that he can make valid points despite his abysmal stance of LGBT issues.

[Sand Wind]

133. There is a kind of fetichism about Putin...from left to the right, a lot of people have too

much respect for dictator.

[AverageJoe90]

134. I'm not LGBT myself(cis), and I was bothered by this as well.

While I don't think most of this was so much actual anti-LGBT animus as it was an unfortunate case of temporary cognitive dissonance, it is *still* highly unfortunate that Putin's recent poor record on LGBT's has been tossed aside & ignored by so many, just because they didn't want a war in Syria.

Well, guess what? I didn't want this conflict to escalate, either. But I never forgot about Russia' s glaring various domestic issues as well, especially this new proposed law that could essentially become the beginning of a 21st Century version of the Nuremberg Laws, only just for LGBT persons in Russia.....damn shame.

[Tveil]

140. Making fun of Putins Bitch tits is anti-LGBT?

I disagree.