An article about why men don't open up (written by a man), critiqued by another man

[Sarah Ibarruri]

This is an old opinion article (2007), but it was so interesting, I decided to post it here for discussion.

It's a critique by Jeff Fecque of an article written by Dave Zinczenko, in which Dave Zinczenko explains to women why men don't open up. The critique is rather humorous. I wonder which one is correct, Jeff or Dave?

Are men and women very different genetically with regard to communication skills and communication behavior? Or are there bigger differences between individuals than between men and women?

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/12/men-want-to-talk-they-just-dont-want-to.html

Here's an excerpt:

Dave:

Further up on his want-to-do list after arriving home: 14 percent of men want to check email, 12 percent are looking for a little private time in the bathroom, and 10 percent simply want to eat dinner. The common theme here: After they’ve spent a day serving the needs of others, they want to take care of themselves a little.

Jeff:

You know, not for nothing, but there are quite a few women coming home at the end of a ten-hour day of serving others, and they may want some private time of their own. Or they may want to decompress by talking to, I don’t know, their life partner or something. Similarly, men may actually want to tell their significant others about their day, or they may need some quiet time to think about it. This may vary, incidentally, from day to day, and from person to person.

Dave:

Rather than talking about how he “feels,” often a man would rather express his love by changing her oil, or bringing home a flower, or relinquishing control of the remote. And when men do talk, they’d prefer to talk about actions rather than emotions. For instance, a lot of guys would choose to express their long-range faith in a relationship by talking about next summer’s vacation plans, not by launching into a soliloquy about undying love.

Jeff:

Unga unga, me Jeff. Me no want talk about my life. Me go kill mastadon now. Shut up, woman! Me no want talk! Seriously, can we just, please, once and for all stuff the “Men are all about action” motif? Please? Because for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if men are uncomfortable talking about their feelings, the answer isn’t just to say, “Well, that’s how men are! He bought you a diamond ring, that means he loves you!” Some men are more comfortable with action than words. Some women, too. And the opposite is true.

[MicaelS]

1. Men love to talk, I know I do...

We just don't always want to talk about our emotions and feelings. Talk about politics, current events, the latest outrage, but my feelings? Uuhhh...nice weather we're having isn't it?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. Men are like The English - they more readily talk about the weather than anything else. :) nt

Last edited Thu Mar 1, 2012, 02:05 PM - Edit history (1)

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. One person's "tendencies" is another person's "stereotype"

When I was first married, the big marital adjustment was the conflict between my need for post-workday quiet time and her need for an audience for her soliloquy.

Men and women do, in general, communicate differently. A man who communicates like a woman is atypical.

And yes, I would rather express love through conscientious action. Everything else is just noises. Men express thoughts. Women express feelings.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. Interesting, thanks. With regard to issues within a relationship...

Do you tend to want to confront them and try to fix them, ignore them and live with them, or neither?

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. What she sees as issues, I don't see.

They're apparent to me only to the extent that she's complaining about them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. That might be where there's an analytical difference between men and women?

So question on that... If you were a counselor, counseling a couple that is having issues in communication, what would you advise them to do in order to stay together and work out their problems?

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Given what I just told you about my communications approach...

... imagining myself as a counselor probably isn't a useful thought exercise.

But I will say that sometimes "our" problems aren't really our problems except in a secondary sense. Or in other words; "When momma ain't happy, nobody's happy".

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. Okay, so you won't be a counselor any time soon lol

And yes, sometimes we have to give in a little to keep the peace.

[Fawke Em]

21. She feels ignored, so then it becomes an issue, whether

you thought it was at first or not.

Very common.

[treestar]

3. This particular "difference" is clear

Men are supposed to be tough and not emotional per the old societal stereotype. We aren't over these stereotypes entirely.

Women are "supposed to" be tending to relationships, etc. and naturally it would follow from that - they would talk more.

But I do know men who yap quite a lot. Maybe not about their feelings, but men are gossips just as much as women are, and motor mouths just as often.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. Yes, I know what you mean. My 1st husband was very talkative. It was a relief to me, in a way

to be with a guy that was very talkative. I don't like having to play psychic and guess what's going on in a guy's mind LOL!

He didn't have all great qualities though. He was a total control freak and felt I had deceived him when I 'grew up' and developed some opinions of my own. That's when the talking ended.

[Javaman]

4. I came from a violent household...

where the men never were allowed to cry, show emotion or show weakness.

It took years of therapy to get past the emtional, mental and physical abuse I was subject to and was witness to.

to this day, I'm cautious still about opening up about my feellings and emotions, but I do.

Having lived as part of that macho generation of bullshit, I can tell you this, it is plain exhausting.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. I know. Growing up in an environment of violence is a constant battle

A battle to be oneself and what one is meant to be, and all the while having to protect one's personality from hurt.

I also don't like that macho thing. It's not only not good for women, but not good for children or the men themselves.

[JDPriestly]

5. I don't think this is a gender trait.

I think it has to do with being introverted or extroverted.

If you work outside the home all day, you need downtime in the evening regardless of your gender.

[HappyMe]

6. I agree.

I also think it may be what kind of job you have.
When I worked in retail I needed a break when I got home. 90% of that job is talking. At the end of the day, some quiet is very welcome. The same with office jobs I had. After being on the phone & attending endless meetings, I have to say silence is golden.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Oh yes, doing the same thing at home that one does at work, is exhausting.

I also find it very hard to understand how women who spend long hours at work, can go home to kids. I periodically take care of my sister's kids (for example, today I'll be doing that), and BOY, is that EXHAUSTING! When she gets home, I'm ready to jet out of there. How do working moms do it? They need awards, asap.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. I definitely need down time when I get home from work. The way I got my downtime when

I lived in Spain, was my hubby and I went (directly from work) to a local pub in our neighborhood, got a wine, and talked to the regulars there, who were our friends. It was different from taking a nap, or zoning out in front of the TV, but it was a form of unwinding that worked really well.

[AngryAmish]

17. Introverts get shit on by extroverts all the tiime

For introverts it is draining to talk. The opposite is true for extroverts.

Extroverts do not understand this. (Introverts do get it because it is what we are subjected to all the time.)

So this men do not communicate thing is bs

[Fumesucker]

52. Most extroverts talk a hell of a lot while actually saying very little of substance..

Meanwhile the introvert talks less while saying a great deal more..

In other words the signal to noise ratio for extroverts tends to suck mightily.

[Saving Hawaii]

58. Seems like somebody is a little high on himself.

Signal to noise doesn't really vary among introverts/extroverts. Smarter people tend to end up introverts for obvious reasons, but there are plenty of smart guys who are extroverts and their signal to noise really isn't different from the smart introverts.

[Fumesucker]

66. How would extroverts know?

One generally does not learn things by talking, if you wish to learn from others you must listen to them, something extroverts aren't very good at for the most part. I know some bright extroverts who never shut up long enough for anyone else to get a syllable in edgewise.

Like any generalization this one is not 100% true but even you admit that bright people are more likely to end up introverts.

[Bohunk68]

67. true for some

I'm an extrovert and in order to get the introverts talking and sharing their thoughts with you, you need to talk and share with them who you are so that they can relate. While I'm talking, I'm really listening a lot to the other person's answers and noting their body language. I learned this a lot growing up as an aware gay kid. It was a way of finding out where other people were.

[Matariki]

12. Jeff comprehends that *all* men DON'T conform to a single set of attributes

Or *all* women either. He is the more sophisticated thinker of the two.

That was a really smart article. Thanks for posting it. I'm always suspicious of shallow thinking that starts with "Men are..." or "Women are...". He nailed it with the constant messages we receive about gender stereotypes.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. I agree with you there. nt

[Jamastiene]

60. That pretty much sums it up.

All men are not the same. All women are not the same. Those old tired stereotypes of both are false.

[MadrasT]

18. Glad to see someone challenging this.

I get so tired of broad-brush gender stereotypes.

My BF and I are the opposite of the stereotype. He talks about everything, all the time, including his emotions, my emotions, and everybody else's emotions.

Meanwhile, I crave peace and quiet. I love to just be in the same place with him and not talk at all.

We both compromise and it works out.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Sounds like you two have a very good relationship! nt

[Zalatix]

20. Jeff comes across as a mean-spirited, dishonest and judgemental jerk in his 2nd paragraph.

What men do want to talk about, makes him an uncivilized caveman. And of course he must want to shut the woman up. I challenge anyone to show in Dave's comments where one can find "me no want talk!" "Shut up, woman!" Please show me that. Jeff was totally un-called for in "reading" that into Dave's 2nd paragraph.

In Western society, nobody would EVER, EVER, EVER mock women's attitudes or motives like Jeff does in the 2nd paragraph.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. Jeff or Dave? nt

[Zalatix]

23. Jeff put words into Dave's comments that Dave never said or implied. That much is undeniable.

I had no problem with Paragraph #1 of Jeff's response. Let me repeat, I had zero problems with Paragraph #1 of Jeff's response.

If Jeff had stuck with "stereotypes are wrong" then he would have been totally on-target. But in Paragraph #2 he just started making up stuff to go after Dave for. That was wrong.

I would seriously like to see where Dave said or implied "Shut up, woman!" Can someone show me where Dave said that? I get the feeling I probably won't get an answer about this from anyone...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Oh ok. I imagined Jeff did that for effect. He meant to say...

"That's a way of telling the woman to shut up/remain silent/stop bringing up conversation" or something. I think he just said it in a far more outrageous way to call attention to what he thought Dave was trying to say but in a highly polite way.

[JVS]

38. Yeah, Jeff is being a douche.

[Fumesucker]

25. Men don't open up their inner feelings because then they can be used as a weapon..

And the more accurately you reveal your feelings the more accurately the weapon can be aimed at your most sensitive parts.

Every time I've ever revealed my inner self it's always been used at some point to hurt me by those I care for the most.

[Matariki]

27. That's unfortunate you've had that experience

It doesn't speak well for the partners you've chosen. Not all people behave that way.

[Fumesucker]

28. Yes, it was all my fault..

Thanks for rubbing it in with a fucking sledgehammer.

See what I mean? Reveal yourself and someone will find a way to hurt you with it.

[Matariki]

31. Well if have to chose between "all woman are bad"

and just waiting to hurt you -or- you've chosen particular partners who haven't treated you well - for whatever reason, I think I'll chose the latter. If you were smart you would too, because then you'd have some hope and even have a chance to do something about it.

BTW, if you're looking for an argument, you'll need to look elsewhere. I'm not interested.

[Fumesucker]

34. First, how do you know it was just "partners"?

And how do you know it was all women?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. I have a question

What if someone believes that perhaps a different partner might not have reacted that way?

What if that someone actually says that?

"A different partner might have reacted differently toward you."

Is that a cruel statement?

[Withywindle]

57. I think "a different partner might have reacted differently toward you" is not cruel.

But "It doesn't speak well for the partners you've chosen" IS cruel, because of the undertone of blame.

"It's your fault because YOU chose badly" is what it's really saying.

[Matariki]

59. I think you misread my words or I didn't communicate them well.

Frankly was having a hard time understanding the hostility in your reaction, but maybe I didn't communicate well.

I meant that treating your feelings with disregard didn't speak well of the people doing it, and I was trying to reassure you that not everyone in the world behaves that way.

The part about it being your choice is only that you do have the choice in who you spend time with and if someone treats you badly you can tell them to take a hike.

[Withywindle]

62. I think there's a nasty strain in our culture

that tends to blame the victims of manipulative/abusive behavior, regardless of gender. It's not OK - regardless of the gender. Men are more predisposed to physical violence, but emotional abuse is pretty equally distributed.

I think the poster you replied to was talking about emotional abuse he'd suffered dished out by women - and he didn't specify partners, it could well have included family members as well, which is NOT a choice. And walking away from someone you love who has power over you is not always as easy as you suggest.

Instead of blaming the victims, how about asking why the abusers do what they do?

I only took your post to task for blaming someone for the company he "CHOSE" when he could just as well have been talking about his mother or his sister or his aunt or his cousin or his boss.

[Matariki]

69. I agree with you about "blaming the victim"

which isn't what I was doing. I think it's unfortunate that someone has a repeated experience that make them come to the terrible conclusion that "all women" are a certain way. That's obviously not the truth.

That said, I have a rule for myself that has worked well for me. When I have a negative experience with people, the first couple times it happens I put it down to the other person's behavior. But if the same thing happens over and over I start examining my own life and try to figure out *why* something is happening. This isn't about me blaming myself or thinking I'm a bad person. It could be that I'm miscommunicating, or that I'm expecting certain reactions from people and the situation is self-fulfilling, or I'm repeating an old psychological pattern, or any number of reasons. That's not to say that there aren't abusive people in the world, there definitely are. But if I keep finding myself in the company of those people over and over, there gets to a point where I have to ask myself why.

[Zalatix]

30. It's quite a common experience.

[Quantess]

29. I have had the exact same problem with friends.

I have stopped sharing a lot of things with others. Is it my fault for revealing things that can be used against me, or is it their fault for betraying the trust? It doesn't really matter. I don't want to be hurt again.

I'm a woman, by the way.

[Matariki]

33. I have no idea who's 'fault' it is

nor was I laying any blame.

I'm just saying that *all* people, men or women, aren't lying in wait to screw you if you make yourself emotionally vulnerable. I feel sad for people who have had that experience and consequently come to the conclusion that it's a universal truth.

[Quantess]

35. Excuse me, but I don't remember asking you.

You said upthread you "don't want an argument", but it really looks as though you're trying to start one.

[Matariki]

39. I was responding to your post

If you don't want a response, perhaps you shouldn't post.

[Quantess]

63. Thanks for proving my point!

Here I was, expressing my feelings, and then I get a dismissive, invalidating response, as though my experiences don't count.

And your solution? That I should keep it to myself!

[Fumesucker]

36. Maybe not "lying in wait" but if you put it out there at some point they'll use it..

It sure didn't take you long to use my revealed feelings to try and make me feel worse about myself.

[Matariki]

40. Who is "they"?

Oh and in this instance I think your pretense at hurt feelings is just that. Pretense.

You think you can "reveal your feelings" that all women are mean, or even one particular way, and not get a reaction?

[Fumesucker]

41. So now you're a mind reader too..

I didn't say you made me feel worse, I said you *tried* to make me feel worse.

You mean nothing to me, you have no power to make me feel one way or the other.

I note you already managed to piss off another woman on this thread and it didn't take you long with her either.

[Quantess]

65. Where did he ever say that? He didn't specify "all women" or even "most women".

And how come you are so eager to shoot down someone else's experiences? You seem really defensive over other people's hurt feelings. I think you have a lot of nerve to make him out to be the bad guy here, and to dismiss my hurt feelings at friends who have betrayed my confidences.

Have you heard the saying, "...protesteth too much"?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. Don't feel bad. Remember that it is unreasonable to expect everyone on the planet to agree with you

That's how I look at it.

[Fumesucker]

50. I'm not upset..

But I think that poster proved my point pretty well, put something of yourself out and there's an excellent chance someone is going to try and use it to hurt you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. Sure, but that's life. Life has never been different. If we refuse to participate

fully in life out of fear that someone, somewhere might criticize us, we're not engaging fully in living.

[Fumesucker]

55. Ever thoroughly mash a fingernail where it's a throbbing mass of pain?

You hit it on *everything* at first..

Then after a while you learn that the slightest touch is going to be painful and you stop or greatly slow hitting it on stuff.

It's kind of like that, after a while you stop hitting the emotional hurt place and like that fingernail it takes a long time to grow out.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

56. Okay, I think I understand what you mean. nt

[Quantess]

64. I'm not upset, either! I wish people would listen instead of dismissing others' feeliings.

Arguing with someone who is expressing their feelings is very dismissive, and only shuts down communication. I had a counselor once who used the word "invalidating" a lot, as in "that person invalidated you", or "okay, so it sounds like you felt invalidated".

Although, it can go a lot farther than just being dismissive or insensitive. People can spread gossip, or they can attack you with the things you confided in them. Those things have happened to me, and I think it's insulting to try to diminish that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. I had plenty of arguments with women about politics, and these didn't turn out well

When I lived in Miami, a conservative bastion, I was one of few libs. I had arguments with female friends who were conservative (and Cuban). However, they went quiet after the difference in politics was found to exist. With men it was different somehow.

[JVS]

37. Yup, it's best to keep quiet.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. It is? I don't know about that. You're not participating in life if you don't get out there and

risk being liked or being not liked.

It's just the way life is.

[JVS]

51. Living is not dependent on how much others like you.

And if it were, the best thing to do would be to tell lies that work in your favor.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. Exactly, which is why one shouldn't spend life holding back -

so what what other people say? We need to be less thin-skinned.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

43. Have you found that everyone you've opened up to has used that information against you?

Or is it that you feel a terrible sense of unease after you've opened up?

I like opening up, but not about every single thing. I don't like people knowing ways in which I've failed, though I know it's going to come out anyway, and people will know.

I guess that happens living in life. Living in society and with family and such, we're all exposed and "out there," with our opinions (political, for example, like on DU), by the way we look, dress, whom we hang out with, what we say, etc. Every moment we run the risk of being criticized. I feel I get criticized a lot, and fear rejection when that happens. Sure, it'd be nice if everyone agreed with me and found me simply amazingly perfect and right always, but it sure isn't going to happen. Oh well!

[FarCenter]

32. So men don't talk, and thus women don't know what they are thinking?

But women talk, and men still don't know what they are thinking!

A lot of this talk is not actually about communication. It is more about making pleasing animal sounds that create emotional bonding. Bow-wow, woof-woof, meow-meow is as informative as a transcript of two women talking when in the bonding mode.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Bonding feels good. :) nt

[snagglepuss]

42. .

[Withywindle]

61. I'm a woman, and I'm someone who decompresses best by quiet "me time."

The LAST thing I want to do, if I had a stressful day, is relive it all by describing it in detail. My ideal partner, male or female, is someone who can read that look on my face, and know it's time to either leave me alone or distract me utterly with a good movie/conversation about *anything else in the universe*/sex/retreat to our individual Happy Places online.

(My last partner--male--called it the Call For Delivery From That Indian Place We Like look, and gods bless him, he usually did.)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. I understand. When I'm in the U.S., I find I generally decompress by hiding and having "me" time.

When I'm abroad, decompressing requires less licking of my wounds than what I require here. When I've lived abroad, I've generally required getting together with others and sharing wine. conversation and camaraderie.

I think it's because working here is far more stressful and takes more of a toll out of me emotionally. At least that's what I've found.