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Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 09:20 PM Sep 2013

Humankind’s Most Dangerous Moment: Fukushima Fuel Pool at Unit 4

We are now within two months of what may be humankind’s most dangerous moment since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

There is no excuse for not acting. All the resources our species can muster must be focussed on the fuel pool at Fukushima Unit 4.

Fukushima’s owner, Tokyo Electric (Tepco), says that within as few as 60 days it may begin trying to remove more than 1300 spent fuel rods from a badly damaged pool perched 100 feet in the air. The pool rests on a badly damaged building that is tilting, sinking and could easily come down in the next earthquake, if not on its own.

Some 400 tons of fuel in that pool could spew out more than 15,000 times as much radiation as was released at Hiroshima.

The one thing certain about this crisis is that Tepco does not have the scientific, engineering or financial resources to handle it. Nor does the Japanese government. The situation demands a coordinated worldwide effort of the best scientists and engineers our species can muster.

...

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2013/1985


As Arnie Gundersen has said, TEPCO has taken a bad situation and has consistently made it worse. They are not a professional engineering firm: they are reactor operators trying to clean up a mess they made as cheaply as possible. Time after time the Pros from Dover have told them what to do and they have IGNORED the advice as being too expensive...only to find they have to spend even MORE money to fix up their half-assed solutions.

It's like a bad "Rescue My Renovation" episode with the world's health on the line.
72 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Humankind’s Most Dangerous Moment: Fukushima Fuel Pool at Unit 4 (Original Post) Junkdrawer Sep 2013 OP
Sign Petition Here: Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #1
thank you gopiscrap Sep 2013 #52
Signed and shared. MoonRiver Sep 2013 #61
It boggles my mind that the World Community didn't Step into this just after KoKo Sep 2013 #2
For example: All that radioactive water? Well, it's mountain runoff seeping.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #4
I wonder if folks these days think that Nuclear Radiation is just a Hoax or Something! KoKo Sep 2013 #6
Japanese doctors are now told to NOT inform their patients when a malady... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #8
Japan basically told the rest of the world.. PearliePoo2 Sep 2013 #7
The problem is that would have to happen at Japan's request davidpdx Sep 2013 #11
Godzilla Syndrome agent46 Sep 2013 #32
Gunderson said extracting these rods from the damaged pool... PearliePoo2 Sep 2013 #3
And the odds of creating a inadvertent criticality are not zero. Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #5
Where was the World Community of Experts in Nuclear Science who could KoKo Sep 2013 #9
I weep for the children of Japan.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #10
"two months or less to act." johnnyreb Sep 2013 #12
they got the Olympics Bennyboy Sep 2013 #13
Those with industry experience should be shouting the loudest... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #14
K&R n/t NealK Sep 2013 #15
Remember it was the tree huggers who said something like this was very likely to happen some day.... JohnyCanuck Sep 2013 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author guyton Sep 2013 #20
We have some of those right here posting in the EE forum madokie Sep 2013 #36
"your ignorance is not as good as their knowledge" MisterP Sep 2013 #54
Not looking good for mankind. Not at all. AAO Sep 2013 #17
Good grief, CLEAN IT UP CLEAN IT UP, NO DON'T CLEAN IT UP, DON'T AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #18
Read the OP please. TEPCO doesn't know what it's doing.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #39
The OP's source doesn't know what it's talking about. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #46
A weird question about accidental criticality mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #19
Nope, that would effectively be what is called a "dirty bomb" pffshht Sep 2013 #21
Huh, that makes sense mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author guyton Sep 2013 #23
Mindwalker, going critical doesn't mean blowing up 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #65
The possibly a more careful definition is in order mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #66
Whoa there buddy. 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #67
Aw man, why you harshing on the neutrons? mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #70
Boron is a pretty good moderator 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #71
Oh please, not even close. hunter Sep 2013 #24
thatvwas an interesting Niceguy1 Sep 2013 #55
You see Japan as an underdeveloped country? 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #69
I was reffering Niceguy1 Sep 2013 #72
You're certainly right about that 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #68
Who will volunteer to be a hero? defacto7 Sep 2013 #25
They aren't dragging their feet. They've been busting their asses. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #27
No they have not. defacto7 Sep 2013 #28
They ARE fixing it. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #30
Noble optimism. defacto7 Sep 2013 #33
I don't imagine they are going to be able to get out all of the rods AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #47
Thanks for your input. defacto7 Sep 2013 #53
Where is "We bring good things to life" GE in all of this? Downwinder Sep 2013 #29
In the US, the emergency generators that would have kept the cooling AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #31
"fuckup is mostly TEPCO's fault" Agreed. So WHY let them continue... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #40
Because it's their mess. vOv AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #48
Causing traffic accidents doesn't make you a Trauma Surgeon. Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #58
not according to this questionseverything Sep 2013 #41
Right, and TEPCO was warned almost a decade ago that a tsunami would trash AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #49
the point is questionseverything Sep 2013 #57
It's possible they could have helped, but AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #60
i agree they are not safe questionseverything Sep 2013 #63
Requires that we take control of them from private or semi-private public entities. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #64
Take the TEPCO executives and move them into Fukishima at gun point. Katashi_itto Sep 2013 #38
Ann Coulter claims that radiation is good for you. Let's send her in to clean it up bare handed. stevenleser Sep 2013 #50
yes, I volunteer all teabaggers too board ships and head out ThomThom Sep 2013 #62
Fukushima is a giant fucking mega-clusterfuck, but Gundersen tends towards hyperbole. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #26
Please help me with the "tends toward" comment. defacto7 Sep 2013 #34
Fine. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #35
ok defacto7 Sep 2013 #44
Could you point to where Arnie talks about "imminent criticality"??? Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #56
Not mankind's most dangerous moment by a long shot NickB79 Sep 2013 #37
K&R redqueen Sep 2013 #42
No nukes in GA, thank you:) grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #43
The hippies were/are right. Once again. Zorra Sep 2013 #45
Wow and we're not hearing much about this in the news gopiscrap Sep 2013 #51
Kick !!! WillyT Sep 2013 #59

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
61. Signed and shared.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:21 AM
Sep 2013

Unfortunately, I think the world's response will be nothing to see here, move along. Maybe humans will finally terminally foul our nest. Been awhile coming, but we seem determined to reach that end point.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
2. It boggles my mind that the World Community didn't Step into this just after
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:00 PM
Sep 2013

it Happened! It's like everyone (even Japan's Closest Neighbors&quot forgot that the whole Pacific/Atlantic Oceans are at Risk because of the Current Flows. And the Fish and Fowl and the inland waterways will all be subjected to this Radiation that could cause death and deformities and Cancers throughout our Oceans and into the low feeders in the Food Chain on up to the rest of us.

I was shocked that the whole world Community just gave up on it and allowed Japan's TEPCO to muddle along...as if "Nothing to See Here...Just let them Handle It" was the proper way to handle this NUCLEAR DISASTER!

It's as if we have World Amnesia about Effects of Nuclear Radiation!

I'm a post WWII Baby and this is just beyond belief to me!

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
4. For example: All that radioactive water? Well, it's mountain runoff seeping....
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:06 PM
Sep 2013

into the damaged reactor buildings. They COULD have dug trenches between the mountains and the site and diverted the water. Gundersen told them DIRECTLY and in a book he wrote shortly after the accident.

TEPCO's response? Too Expensive. Now they're talking about the great Ice Dam. How expensive (and leak prone) is that?

The Three Stooges fix a reactor accident.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
6. I wonder if folks these days think that Nuclear Radiation is just a Hoax or Something!
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:20 PM
Sep 2013

I'm amazed at the folks who think (even on Dem Side) that this is just a hoax like "Climate Change" is to be denied.

They are too young to remember that the US doesn't get MONSOON RAINS? Or, that Hiroshima, Nagasaki caused massive Birth Defects to those it didn't kill?

How could JAPAN of all places FORGET the effects of this? The population is supposed to be aged...and yet they allowed these Nuclear Plants and then TEPCO to Lie to Them?

I really have to say I get so discouraged at times these days wondering if NO ONE reads HISTORY....or even has Parents/Grandparents who passed on what went on during WWII and Aftermath. And, even Korean War and Vietnam seem to have faded into memory for much of the World's Population.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
8. Japanese doctors are now told to NOT inform their patients when a malady...
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:33 PM
Sep 2013

is probably radiation related. And, unbelievably, most are saying "OK".

Listen here:

http://fairewinds.org/podpress_trac/web/2583/0/nuclear_hotseat_radio-Sept-2013.mp3

PearliePoo2

(7,768 posts)
7. Japan basically told the rest of the world..
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:29 PM
Sep 2013

to butt out. We will handle it, they said.
How's that working out for you now, you arrogant assholes?
Meanwhile, the entire planet is being contaminated.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
11. The problem is that would have to happen at Japan's request
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:09 PM
Sep 2013

and they won't ask for help. By the time they do ask for help it maybe too late. Another earthquake maybe a bit bigger and closer than the one that just happened or a super typhoon that hits closer to the area and time may run out.

The IOC awarded Japan the 2020 Summer Olympic Games (only 7 years away) with this nightmare just north of Tokyo. They need to have the clean up and containment well under way before the games. Sure there maybe little radiation outside the zone of exclusion now, but with the way things have been handled it wouldn't take much for the accident to become worse.

PearliePoo2

(7,768 posts)
3. Gunderson said extracting these rods from the damaged pool...
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:06 PM
Sep 2013

is like trying to pull a cigarette straight out of a pack that has been bent and crumpled. Hard to do without some damage to either the one you're extracting or the others in the pack.
Holy fuck...may the gawds be with us...

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
5. And the odds of creating a inadvertent criticality are not zero.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:19 PM
Sep 2013

Tokyo Electric has admitted that the boron between these fuel cells — there’s a boron wafer in between the fuel to prevent something called an inadvertent criticality, you can have a nuclear chain reaction in the fuel pool, and that’s not a good thing — but they’ve admitted that all the boron has disintegrated.

So the only thing preventing a chain reaction from occurring […] in the fuel racks themselves, is the fact they put all sorts of boron in the water.

But if the rods get too close to each other, they can still fire up again and create a chain reaction in the nuclear fuel pool.

....

http://enenews.com/gundersen-theyve-admitted-all-boron-disintegrated-between-spent-fuel-fukushima-chain-reaction-rods-close-together-pool-audio

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
9. Where was the World Community of Experts in Nuclear Science who could
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:41 PM
Sep 2013

have called a Council to make Recommendations about ways to deal with this. I never heard of Japan calling for that.

Just like after the BP Oil Spill when other countries who had Ships who could Mop Up or Suck up were offering to POB to come and help and they were turned away. It was said that the Gulf Spill was Different and that BP would have the expertise to deal with it...which was spreading CoREXENT on it to make it go to the bottom of the Gulf...so it wouldn't be seen but would beyond prying eyes to lurk there indefinitely without proper study to the after effects.

But...there was nothing to see there...just move along and we needed to get Tourists back into the Gulf States and New Orlean's Convention Centers....so we ignored it all and who know what those folks who visit NO's and go to those Conventions and the Local Folks are eating that will have after effects.

And I guess Tokyo Business Interests just ignore what's "down the road from them" and maybe import their food from CHINA...who shares the same waters with South Korea and others of where the Fish Swim...

It will come to California...but Nuke Radiation takes time to work itself through the food chain.

So..who cares if the Cancer and Birth Defects start to form along the lines of the Pacific Currents in the next many Decades and there's a spike that starts to show up.

By then we will have Cured Cancer and Birth Defects will be taken care of with Rehabilitative drugs or parts grown in labs that repair it all.

Who knows...but, we can't replace with new Pharma and Genetic Manipulation the millions of Birds, Ocean Plant Life and the Organisms that all our Marine Life feed on and that will have an effect on all the rest of us as we go forward.

Sorry for the gloom. But, that this has gone on so long...without the World Community getting Alarmed & Involved is just incredible...Beyond fathoming.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
10. I weep for the children of Japan....
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:48 PM
Sep 2013

They HAVE been exposed. If TEPCO screws up the fuel removal, we may be exposed...depending how bad they screw up.

The mp3 in post #8 goes over a lot of the corrupt politics involved.

johnnyreb

(915 posts)
12. "two months or less to act."
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:11 PM
Sep 2013

From the OP link:

Chernobyl’s first 1986 fallout reached California within ten days. Fukushima’s in 2011 arrived in less than a week. A new fuel fire at Unit 4 would pour out a continuous stream of lethal radioactive poisons for centuries. (....)

Neither Tokyo Electric nor the government of Japan can go this alone. (....)

We have two months or less to act.

Mt. Fuji in Red -- Akira Kurosawa's Dreams
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8f5_1300209850

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
14. Those with industry experience should be shouting the loudest...
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:23 PM
Sep 2013

You know the difference between reactor designers and operating utilities.

JohnyCanuck

(9,922 posts)
16. Remember it was the tree huggers who said something like this was very likely to happen some day....
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:49 PM
Sep 2013

and the scientific geniuses who said, "What the fuck do you know? Show us your degrees in nuclear physics. That's right, you don't have one, so go hug a tree and leave the safe running of the nuclear industry to us professionals who do."

Response to JohnyCanuck (Reply #16)

madokie

(51,076 posts)
36. We have some of those right here posting in the EE forum
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 03:57 AM
Sep 2013

scientific geniuses I mean and yes they're trying to tell us the exact same thing when we question the sanity of using nuclear energy.
I shit you not

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
39. Read the OP please. TEPCO doesn't know what it's doing....
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:19 AM
Sep 2013

The petition is a plea to get the money and talent to do it right,

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
46. The OP's source doesn't know what it's talking about.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:26 AM
Sep 2013

We NEED that fucking pool emptied. Lets get this fucking DONE already.

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
19. A weird question about accidental criticality
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:10 AM
Sep 2013

If the spent fuel goes critical and blows up, could it possibly cause all the fuel at the plant to blow up, thus "spending" all the fuel? If I'm not mistaken, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were bombed then rebuilt, indicating that there weren't a lot of residual radioactives around making them uninhabitable long-term. Of course, reactors are not the same as bombs and I have no idea whether all of the fuel could "burn itself out." Then there's the unfortunate problem of Tokyo being relatively close.

pffshht

(79 posts)
21. Nope, that would effectively be what is called a "dirty bomb"
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:23 AM
Sep 2013

It would have to be densely compressed just the right way to all go off at once.

If a small amount of the fuel went critical, the rest would be aerosolized and go literally everywhere.

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
22. Huh, that makes sense
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:25 AM
Sep 2013

I suppose picking up the whole chunk of surrounding land and hurling it into the sun is a non-starter.

Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #19)

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
65. Mindwalker, going critical doesn't mean blowing up
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:49 PM
Sep 2013

Nothing other than the formation of hydrogen gas that might be ignited or possibly other fuels or materials at the site is going to blow up in any nuclear sense - there will be no mushroom cloud.

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
66. The possibly a more careful definition is in order
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:01 PM
Sep 2013

I was just wondering if there was a way to force all the fissionable material to "fizz" and break down into more stable elements, hence the idea to cause it all to "blow up." But from the above comments, getting it to all burn is just impossible. It seems like the was to do that would be to essentially flood the fuel with neutrons, of which some would be absorbed by the fissionable material, causing it to fission. Unfortunately that would cause some to blow up, scattering the rest over a wide area. In addition, most neutrons would just be absorbed into other elements making them unstable.

So it's back to the ice wall and another nuclear power plant to provide the energy for the cooling systems.

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
67. Whoa there buddy.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:08 PM
Sep 2013

Neutron bombardment would be the worst possible thing to do. However there are materials that can moderate the reactions that are taking place. Oh, and the 'fizz' is a natural thing. Sooner or later all daughter elements turn into lead.

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
70. Aw man, why you harshing on the neutrons?
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 01:02 AM
Sep 2013

They're not such bad guys, cmon!

Yeah I know, they're bad. I'm just trying to think of some way to defizz all the fizzy stuff, now rather than when it chooses to do so on its own.I'm definitely not a nuclear engineer and one is needed, but it's interesting to throw ideas out there to see if anything has a quantum of merit. The ice wall thing seems like it will work until something goes boom, which, I suppose, is why they're going to try to remove the spent fuel before building the wall.

Why don't we just encase the whole thing in marshmallows? It might not do a lot of good, but they won't require any external power. And if the whole thing blows up, it'll rain s'mores in Tokyo! Really hot s'mores...

hunter

(38,322 posts)
24. Oh please, not even close.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:32 AM
Sep 2013

There's tons of stuff at Hanford that's worse, Chernobyl is worse, and they still haven't cleaned up all the mess at Bhopal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

Should that make anyone feel better about Fukushima? No.

But there's worse crap in our modern industrial society that nobody gives a flying fuck about.

Fracking and coal fired power plants ought to be banned. Then we can worry about the lesser shit.

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
55. thatvwas an interesting
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:32 AM
Sep 2013

Ead and it highlights the dangers of letting lical people manage a hazardius plant in a underdeveloped country.

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
72. I was reffering
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 02:13 AM
Sep 2013

To the union carbide plant in india...it was ran and managed locslly as an indian company. The mismanagement was a local issue...not an american one as many like to portray.

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
68. You're certainly right about that
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:11 PM
Sep 2013

Its all in the plumbing, you might say, but the tank farms at Hanford have leaked for generations. I can not imagine anyone eating a fish that came out of the Columbia river (or taking a dip anywhere within 100 miles downstream of Pasco), but I'd take a fish caught somewhere around Hawaii wouldn't scare me a bit.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
25. Who will volunteer to be a hero?
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:44 AM
Sep 2013

One of the biggest obstacles with the Fukushima disaster is the loss of life in the process of fixing it. Engineers always have to think in terms of the safe ways to design anything. It's actually the entirety of the process and education of engineers to make things that don't hurt humans or property. Who will design a fix for the Fukushima reactor that factors in those who will have to give their life to make it happen? And I speculate there will very likely be those who WILL have to choose to die. There is no quick and clean way to make this happen before it has a disastrous effect on humanity.

There will be lives lost in the process. There will be heroes who will have to choose to sacrifice themselves. Why do you think the operators are dragging their feet? Why do you think the Japanese government is being silent? If they aren't silent they will have to choose the way of their ancestors and they are not that brave anymore. Who is? If we had another couple of years to spare, maybe we could find a way with the help of the entire world community to fix this thing with only accidental casualties. We don't have that time left.

Do I hear volunteers?

I am very serious.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
27. They aren't dragging their feet. They've been busting their asses.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:55 AM
Sep 2013

Have you seriously looked a picture of the site today, versus the day after the tsunami?

There may be a lot of things wrong, but laziness or fear isn't one of them. They have already gotten volunteers for high dose operations.

I love the variety of bitching in this thread. It starts out that Tepco is moving recklessly, too fast, and now we have 'they are dragging their feet'... Fuck-ing-hell.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
28. No they have not.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:12 AM
Sep 2013

They have been covering up. They have been refusing outside help and expertise.

And what is your personal problem with people like myself screaming bloody hell that the problem is over their heads?

It is an international emergency. Not a Japanese national emergency.

I will admit dragging their feet is a metaphor that has the stigma of being lazy. That's not the message of my comment, is it? They are scared shitless because some will have to die to fix this thing and they don't know how to do it.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
30. They ARE fixing it.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:44 AM
Sep 2013

This article was about STOPPING them from DOING SOMETHING that will help fix this, by removing the threat that pool poses.

So how are they moving reluctantly on one hand, when the start of this thread, and most of the bitching is about them moving RECKLESSLY forward?

Who am I to believe? Scared and unwilling to proceed? Not hardly. They are going to get this done one damn way or another.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
33. Noble optimism.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 02:16 AM
Sep 2013

"... one damn way or another"

It's the "damn" part that's I have issue with.

Should I say that I hope you are right, or is it a one man band crusade to bolster the spirit and tamp down the questioning, outspoken hordes?

To say the least, I am not so optimistic. We will wait and we will see.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
47. I don't imagine they are going to be able to get out all of the rods
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:32 AM
Sep 2013

in a standard way. Some of them probably won't draw out of the racks properly. They are going to have setbacks and have to improvise. But I think they can get the bulk of it out without too much fuss.

Here's what bugs me, even if it goes 99.9% right, and there's just some damaged bits left behind, the people like Gunderson are going to how 'SEE WE WERE RIGHT'. It's practically a cowardly position to take, knowing that SOMETHING is going to go wrong, given the state of the fuel, and the gantry that fell into the pool, not to mention the pieces of the building that fell in... They are practically guaranteed to have something to bitch about, and that's really unfortunate. TEPCO could really use a win here. And so could everyone living downwind.

I don't pretend that I can 'tamp down' the horde, it just really bugs me, and I wish the situation was otherwise... I also don't imagine that a petition or whatever is going to delay them one second. What would the world do? Invade them to stop them? Economic sanctions?

This is an easy feat, compared to whats coming up in the reactors themselves. The cores are FAR worse than 3 mile island was. Fixing that... emptying the damaged fuel/corium... There, we need technological and procedural advances bordering on the euphemistic 'miracle'.

Let's see what they do, how it goes. If they can't clear the pool, then we know for sure if they can do anything about the reactors themselves.

Let's hope for a win.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
53. Thanks for your input.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:32 AM
Sep 2013

I appreciate your taking time to reply with information that helps me to be more reasonable as well as aware. If anyone is prone to hyperbole it is probably me but that is my blunt way of examining the usually unspoken possibilities. Hopefully there is added perspective in that. The last thing on my mind is to create unnecessary fears or criticize the people who are putting themselves on the front line. But it does come out that way sometimes. Stirring the pot has it's drawbacks even when it's an honest effort.

Petitions help people feel involved. They work or they don't but at least people feel like they're doing something instead of feeling helpless and there is a lot of helpless going around. But that's about it. Invade? ha. I would hope world governments are keeping the pressure on to allow outside help. We have sovereign nation refusing international intervention when it's an international problem. I can't help but wonder what the logic is in that unless there is a reason to think outside help would make it worse. I certainly wouldn't know.

Yes, let's see what they do and wait for the outcome. I too hope for a win.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
29. Where is "We bring good things to life" GE in all of this?
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:24 AM
Sep 2013

Don't they have some responsibility for their design and installation?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
31. In the US, the emergency generators that would have kept the cooling
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:45 AM
Sep 2013

going during the SCRAM are inundation-proof, and installed in a different manner.

I think this fuckup is mostly TEPCO's fault, even though GE made (or really consulted on/designed) the reactor itself.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
58. Causing traffic accidents doesn't make you a Trauma Surgeon.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:13 PM
Sep 2013

The fact that, as you say below:

"TEPCO was warned almost a decade ago that a tsunami would trash the generators."

SCREAMS to me that we need independent experts to direct this cleanup.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
41. not according to this
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:34 PM
Sep 2013

The key weakness revealed by both the Fukushima plant and in the U.S. computer models is the reliability of backup electricity. The reactors at Fukushima had batteries big enough to power equipment, including monitoring instruments, for eight hours. U.S. reactors are required only to have two hours of such battery backup

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-safe-are-old-nuclear-reactors-lessons-from-fukushima&page=3

from what i have read,it is the loss of electricity to the cooling that is the problem.....why don't we just add windmills to every solar plant in country ,when everything is working ,they just produce clean electricity but if there is a problem the cooling mechanisms still have power...seems like a win/win

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
49. Right, and TEPCO was warned almost a decade ago that a tsunami would trash
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:35 AM
Sep 2013

the generators. (Figuratively, once the flooding was pumped out, the gensets were in working condition, but they cannot run submerged.)

They had every opportunity to add cooling capacity to the site, in case of loss of ultimate heat sink. They didn't do it. Those parts of the plant are TEPCO's responsibility.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
57. the point is
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:33 PM
Sep 2013

here in the USA we have less battery back up,less protection than this plant had

the windmills in japan never stopped producing electricity

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
60. It's possible they could have helped, but
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:17 AM
Sep 2013

there are additional things to consider, like the electrical switchyard, and the seawater pumps themselves. There are indications from the Japanese government that the cooling at Fukushima went offline before the wave even arrived. AS the temblor-induced SCRAM started.

Flooding was only part of the problem. By all means, put up windmills, it can only help, but keep in mind, these things still aren't safe by any means.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
63. i agree they are not safe
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:07 PM
Sep 2013

but since there is not much chance of the corps "turning them off"......a steady supply of energy from safe wind mills might help

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
64. Requires that we take control of them from private or semi-private public entities.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:23 PM
Sep 2013

They are already making bad cost-benefit decisions on additional safety features.

Privatized profit, socialized risk....

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
50. Ann Coulter claims that radiation is good for you. Let's send her in to clean it up bare handed.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:45 AM
Sep 2013

I think it's time to have her put her money where her mouth is. She spews all of this garbage all the time, let's make her back it up.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
26. Fukushima is a giant fucking mega-clusterfuck, but Gundersen tends towards hyperbole.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 12:47 AM
Sep 2013

Last edited Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:19 AM - Edit history (1)

I take what he says with a grain of salt, just like I do TEPCO.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
34. Please help me with the "tends toward" comment.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 02:31 AM
Sep 2013
According to Arnie Gundersen, a nuclear engineer with forty years in an industry for which he once manufactured fuel rods, the ones in the Unit 4 core are bent, damaged and embrittled to the point of crumbling. Cameras have shown troubling quantities of debris in the fuel pool, which itself is damaged.

The engineering and scientific barriers to emptying the Unit Four fuel pool are unique and daunting, says Gundersen. But it must be done to 100% perfection.

Should the attempt fail, the rods could be exposed to air and catch fire, releasing horrific quantities of radiation into the atmosphere. The pool could come crashing to the ground, dumping the rods together into a pile that could fission and possibly explode. The resulting radioactive cloud would threaten the health and safety of all us.


Which part of this tends towards hyperbole? The "100% perfection" part, or the "40 years in the industry"? The rest is already pretty well understood.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
35. Fine.
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 03:22 AM
Sep 2013

He's been talking about "imminent criticality" for over 2 years. Look, if you want someone to glad-hand you about how Fukushima is no big deal, find someone else. Pool #4 catches on fire? Fuck, yes, very bad day for all of us, particularly who are on the West Coast of the US.

But I'm not interested in debating Arnie Gundersen's credibility on this, either. I stated my opinion, my opinion isn't going to change, so there it is.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
44. ok
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:17 PM
Sep 2013

Not sure what you mean by "glad-hand" since my opinion is directly opposite of "no big deal", but being our first discussion on anything serious... I get it.

Anyway, I don't try to change opinions. I try to state an opinion or seek answers. No more, no less.

Be well.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
56. Could you point to where Arnie talks about "imminent criticality"???
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:18 PM
Sep 2013

He's talked about "prompt criticality" in regards to the Reactor 3 explosion

and

He's talked about "inadvertent criticality" in regards to the coming attempt at removing the spent fuel from Reactor 4's damaged pool.

Two separate phenomena which, I believe, he has supported with good science.

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
37. Not mankind's most dangerous moment by a long shot
Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:44 AM
Sep 2013

The number of lives threatened by even the worst-case scenario of Fukushima pales in comparison to what the best estimates of global warming in the 21st century postulate.

Fuck, we're already losing 300,000 lives per year from climate change: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30998907/ns/us_news-environment/t/climate-change-death-toll-put-year/#.Uj14VT-E7Kc

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