"Gas missiles 'were not sold to Syria'"

[k-robjoe]

"Gas missiles 'were not sold to Syria'.

Export papers seem to back Assad's denial over sarin attack.

While the Assad regime in Damascus has denied responsibility for the sarin gas missiles that killed around 1,400 Syrians in the suburb of Ghouta on 21 August, information is now circulating in the city that Russia's new "evidence" about the attack includes the dates of export of the specific rockets used and – more importantly – the countries to which they were originally sold. They were apparently manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1967 and sold by Moscow to three Arab countries, Yemen, Egypt and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Libya. These details cannot be verified in documents, and Vladimir Putin has not revealed the reasons why he told Barack Obama that he knows Assad's army did not fire the sarin missiles; but if the information is correct – and it is believed to have come from Moscow – Russia did not sell this particular batch of chemical munitions to Syria.

Since Gaddafi's fall in 2011, vast quantities of his abandoned Soviet-made arms have fallen into the hands of rebel groups and al-Qa'ida-affiliated insurgents. Many were later found in Mali, some in Algeria and a vast amount in Sinai. The Syrians have long claimed that a substantial amount of Soviet-made weaponry has made its way from Libya into the hands of rebels in the country's civil war with the help of Qatar – which supported the Libyan rebels against Gaddafi and now pays for arms shipments to Syrian insurgents."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/gas-missiles-were-not-sold-to-syria-8831792.html

[leveymg]

1. So, who made and launched the improvised rockets used in another area that killed most?

There are even bigger questions about the origins of the bigger, non-military rockets used in the Eastern suburb of Nasrallah.

[Uncle Joe]

6. It says in this report that 300 rebels were in the area that was attacked, depending on the faction,

that might give a clue as to who launched them.

As it is, Syria is now due to lose its entire strategic long-term chemical defences against a nuclear-armed Israel – because, if Western leaders are to be believed, it wanted to fire just seven missiles almost a half century old at a rebel suburb in which only 300 of the 1,400 victims (if the rebels themselves are to be believed) were fighters. As one Western NGO put it yesterday: "if Assad really wanted to use sarin gas, why for God's sake, did he wait for two years and then when the UN was actually on the ground to investigate?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/gas-missiles-were-not-sold-to-syria-8831792.html

Al Qaeda and the "moderate" rebels have been battling against each other, according to reports Al Qaeda is better armed and more effective on the field.

From what I understand, there is also a third major faction the "radical Islamists."

The moderates just want to get rid of Assad, the "radical Islamists" want a fundamentalist Islamic State and Al Qaeda wants a greater "holy war" with the West and/or to have its' two primary enemies, the U.S. and Russia to engage each other over Syria.

To my way of thinking Al Qaeda has/had the greatest motivation to commit this kind of atrocity and if those were mostly moderate rebels in the area attacked that would lead credence to my hypothesis that Al Qaeda was behind the attack.

Even if Al Qaeda fighters were present in the area, that wouldn't necessarily rule out Al Qaeda as the culprit, as they readily commit suicide in their attacks. I don't believe they would have any qualms against attacking their own if they believed it would achieve their goals.

[leveymg]

8. I agree. None of the accounts fully "make sense." Since the Admin. won't release the evidence,

there's really no way to independently verify who actually launched these things. People will believe what they want, or draw their own more or less reasoned conclusions.

[dipsydoodle]

2. "made its way from Libya into the hands of rebels in the country's civil war"

Reminiscent of the 400 stingers exported by the CIA in Benghazi to the same recipients.

Plenty of links - find your own.

[MisterP]

4. it's like with the Contras: they don't have to give 'em the arms directly--

just abandon them, or make sure the armories get busted wide open
the US'd have exercises in east Honduras--and then leave all the equipment in the field and went home
some of this (paid for with a HILARIOUS amount of cocaine) was presumably used on Ben Linder: as with the USS <i>Liberty</i>, some American lives are more equally sacred than others

[leveymg]

10. Don't think those were Stingers in Libya. Much more likely SA-7 or SA-16s.

Russian design shoulder-fired Surface to Air Missiles:


Stingers refer to a specific type of US-made shoulder fired "MANPAD":

[dipsydoodle]

12. yes should've said surface to air.

Original reports did refer to Stingers and SA24's however.

[Uncle Joe]

3. It never made sense that Assad would launch the attack.

Nevertheless, it also has to be said that grave doubts are being expressed by the UN and other international organisations in Damascus that the sarin gas missiles were fired by Assad's army. While these international employees cannot be identified, some of them were in Damascus on 21 August and asked a series of questions to which no one has yet supplied an answer. Why, for example, would Syria wait until the UN inspectors were ensconced in Damascus on 18 August before using sarin gas little more than two days later – and only four miles from the hotel in which the UN had just checked in? Having thus presented the UN with evidence of the use of sarin – which the inspectors quickly acquired at the scene – the Assad regime, if guilty, would surely have realised that a military attack would be staged by Western nations.

As it is, Syria is now due to lose its entire strategic long-term chemical defences against a nuclear-armed Israel – because, if Western leaders are to be believed, it wanted to fire just seven missiles almost a half century old at a rebel suburb in which only 300 of the 1,400 victims (if the rebels themselves are to be believed) were fighters. As one Western NGO put it yesterday: "if Assad really wanted to use sarin gas, why for God's sake, did he wait for two years and then when the UN was actually on the ground to investigate?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/gas-missiles-were-not-sold-to-syria-8831792.html

Thanks for the thread, k-robjoe.

[ProSense]

5. Still

There is no doubt that Syria has a substantial chemical weapons armoury. Nor that Syrian stockpiles contain large amounts of sarin gas 122mm missiles. But if the Russians have indeed been able to identify the specific missile markings on fragments found in Ghouta – and if these are from munitions never exported to Syria – the Assad regime will boast its innocence has been proven.

<...>

"It would perhaps be going beyond conspiracy theories to say the government was not involved," one Syrian journalist said last week, "but we are sure the rebels have got sarin. They would need foreigners to teach them how to fire it. Or is there a 'third force' which we don't know about? If the West needed an excuse to attack Syria, they got it right on time, in the right place, and in front of the UN inspectors."

...trying to absolve Assad? Putin and Russian officials have moved on to claim that rebels infiltrated areas in the control of Assad and launched his missiles.

The Russians are also hinting that they'll abandon Assad if he doesn't comply.

Syria meets deadline for chemical weapons disclosure
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023707119

[Uncle Joe]

9. Many if not most of Al Qaeda are foreigners, and they have plenty of connections or advisors

in teaching them how to fire rockets, mot to mention experience on the battlefield.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/20/us-syria-crisis-azaz-idUSBRE98J09620130920

The fight in the town of Azaz was one of the most serious between ideologically moderate rebels and ISIL, which is made up largely of foreign fighters. It prompted Turkey to shut a border crossing.

[cthulu2016]

7. LOL. So Syria just listed weapons it doesn't have to the UN?

Good to know.

[leveymg]

11. Syria isn't claiming it doesn't have BM-16 chemical rockets. It claims it didn't fire them and the

other type of rocket used on 8/21 about which less is known.

[Uncle Joe]

13. From the link on the Op.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/gas-missiles-were-not-sold-to-syria-8831792.html

There is no doubt that Syria has a substantial chemical weapons armoury. Nor that Syrian stockpiles contain large amounts of sarin gas 122mm missiles. But if the Russians have indeed been able to identify the specific missile markings on fragments found in Ghouta – and if these are from munitions never exported to Syria – the Assad regime will boast its innocence has been proven.

[dipsydoodle]

14. Aside from which - Russia Welcomes Plans by UN Inspectors to Return to Syria – Lavrov.

MOSCOW, September 22 (RIA Novosti) – Russia welcomes the plans of UN chemical weapons inspectors to return to Syria to complete their investigation, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Sunday.

In the interview with Channel One, Lavrov said he welcomed the statement made by Ake Sellstrom, the head of the inspection team, last week that the inspectors would return to Syria “within weeks” and complete the investigation into the alleged use of chemical weapons in the country.

“It is regrettable that our Western partners have taken advantage of their influence on the UN Secretariat and made the experts stop their work temporarily and make feverishly a report on the August 21 events,” Lavrov said saying that alleged chemical weapons attacks also occurred on August 22,24 and 25 that also need to be investigated.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20130922/183647516/Russia-Welcomes-Plans-by-UN-Inspectors-to-Return-to-Syria--Lavrov.html

[Celefin]

15. But the intervention it seems was sold to Obama and Kerry

Question is, who provided such a good argument that it made jumping in without delay palatable?

As more and more information surfaces about this tangled mess the more I've been wondering about this.

Anyway, let's be thankful the President refrained from ordering an attack and has begun working with the Russians and possibly even the Iranians.

[T_J]

16. Robert Fisk hasn't taken into account the 1970s military agreement between Syria, Libya and Egypt.

Syria did indeed have the BM-14 system as supplied by the USSR. It is in the SIPRI trade register. Even if the Russians have identified the batch of munitions not being delivered to Syria it doesn't preclude that a third party passed them on. They could very well have come from Libya but transferred in the 1970s? During that period Syria, Egypt and Libya were linked under the Federation of Arab Republics. Under that agreement arms would have been transferred. Libya transferred munitions and personnel to support their allies against Israel.

[k-robjoe]

17. Qui bono?

>"They could very well have come from Libya..."

But once you know that they could very well have come from Libya earlier this year, into the hands of Al Qaida rebels, then you have to ask : Qui bono?

And then things make sense.

[k-robjoe]

18. Barry Rubin

"Startling Parallels: Obama Appeasement Policy and British Intelligence Files on Hitler.

Last week, President Barack Obama proposed a policy of allying with the Muslim Brotherhood, the Salafists, and al-Qaeda against Syria."

(...)

&quot ...) Islamism parallels the debate on appeasing–rather than opposing–Hitler based on newly released British intelligence documents. One of the themes then, as now, was to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, no matter what a violent and threatening past he had. Ideology is ignored."

http://www.gloria-center.org/2013/09/startling-parallels-obama-appeasement-policy-and-british-intelligence-files-on-hitler/