This third-way centrist ultimately loves counterproductive left wingnuts

[Recursion]

I've worked for the government most of my adult life and I see this dialog a lot.

There's what we want, and there's what we can do. It's important not to confuse to two.

But in the talk about what we can actually do it's also important to remember what we really do want, and how we on this board are more alike in that question than we probably think.

Leftward pressure on a Democratic administration is always irritating in some sense to the sort of people who wind up inside the beltway, but it's also always required.

As a separate issue, writing posts on DU is not activism (both sides are guilty of this conflation). Manning phone banks is activism. Signing a check is activism. Knocking and dragging is activism (we will especially need that next year: go here to see where you can help). Here I will preach for a second: if you want to change the party, the door is open. I've never yet heard of a state party that said "we're turning down volunteers".

I love this board, and I love knocking heads with the people on it, but let's not after all the bullshit we've been through start pretending we're on different teams.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Agreed. This place can get ridiculous at times, but...

we all live in a real world out there where we have to deal with things we can't stand. Letting off some pressure here may be how some deal with it, but that can get out of hand and with intentional, and highly talented, disruptors always around things can get insane.

I mentioned elsewhere that a large part of our problem is that we don't have a focus on a common enemy like we had during the Bush years. Incredibly, the House is now worse than Bush on a bad day, but it's tougher to focus on a boatload of assholes in a big sea than just one in a white house.

Next year is an election almost, possibly more, important than the next Presidential. Activism means getting all our asses out and fighting for whatever Democrats we can get into office. Last year was partly an Obama backlash, but next year we have a chance to restore order in the House. There are districts where we can't get a proper liberal Dem elected, so it's no crime to get a not-so-liberal one in there. Just get one in there.

[BumRushDaShow]

6. "Last year was partly an Obama backlash"

I agree with most of your post however last year (2012) Democrats actually picked up about 7 or 8 seats in the House meaning that rather than having to pick up something like 25 seats to take back the House (after 2010), that number is now down to about 18 for 2014. So the "backlash" was not against the Democrats but against the Republicans (unless I misunderstood your post). The crazies who were elected in 2010 were mostly re-elected, although a bunch (like the lunatic Alan West) were soundly defeated.

Agree that the issue is that in order for Democrats to regain Committee chairmanships, set the rules, and be able to shepherd legislation to the floor, they need to get 218 seats in the House, and that would most likely end up including some members with a broader range of political leanings.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Aaargh! You're right. I just woke up and..

coffee was not yet brewed at the time.

I was getting the years confused. And being involved in the Tim Bishop (NY 1) horror didn't help my confusion.

[BumRushDaShow]

17. Damn I know the feeling!

[99Forever]

2. I see it differently.

When those we supported, have mislead us to get our support, then once in office, don't even TRY to get do for us, we ARE on different "teams."

(Perhaps if you didn't think of this as a "sport," but rather the very lives of We the People, you might get it.)

[Recursion]

3. Well, if you think they aren't trying, I invite you to come try instead

Like I said, I don't know a state party that's saying "no more volunteers".

We can do better. But we also aren't doing nothing.

[99Forever]

4. Excuse me?

What do you know about what I have and haven't done?

Assume much?

I'm done "volunteering and contributing" to liars that do nothing for us. Been there, done that, no more.

[Recursion]

5. OK then

Later

[1StrongBlackMan]

16. Now you get it! ...

Mineralman had a similar post, calling for folks to get involved beyond posting on an anonymous message board awhile back that was met with similar responses. I suspected then, as I do now ... Democrats will heed the call; others will argue with you.

Keep it moving ... GOTV 2014!

[sabrina 1]

40. Was there a post I missed somewhere that MM and the OP here saw listing

the names of those who do 'nothing but post on a message board'?? I know a whole lot of DUers and know for a fact that without them and the millions of other Dems like them, Republicans would be in control of everything.

But you and MM seem to have some knowledge that the rest of us DUers are not privy to. Could you provide the rest of us with the information you have that certainly doesn't pertain to any DUer I know so I'm wondering, where did it come from?

Thanks in advance. I'm just a wee bit skeptical to say the least, about the sources you have used so far which I'm sure you understand. Something more mainstream Dem would be appreciated.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. Fair enough …

But when I see DUers posting things like, I'm done "volunteering and contributing" to liars that do nothing for us. Been there, done that, no more.” And, whose definition of “liar” includes everyone currently in office, other than Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and possibly, Allan Grayson; along with posts saying (in essence, cuz I’m too lazy to link to the exact posts): “why try? The 1%/PTB/Democratic controllers/etc., won’t let us do what we want to do, so I stopped trying” … Well, I just kind of got out of that, that they are/have stopped trying.

But I could be wrong …

[sabrina 1]

56. Piece of advice, don't use anyone who spent the Bush years, when we were all

here or on other Dem forums fighting hard to stop Republicans from destroying this country and helping to get Dems back in power, posting on hate sites like FR as a source of 'advice' for Democrats. I don't take advice from anyone who was a FR during those awful times. Nor does any other Democrat I know.

As for your other point, people are frustrated beyond belief. We spent EIGHT YEARS fighting the Bush gang. We KNEW they were liars and war criminals.

What do you expect of people, who spent money they didn't have, took time out of jobs they couldn't afford, were willing to put their lives on the line, to STOP BUSH POLICIES and Crimes from destroying this country, who then helped get Dems ELECTED, only to be told to begin with 'that we are moving forward from War Crimes'.

And that was just the start. If you want to know why people are angry, ask THEM, don't ask someone who was on FR during those critical years and then pass along their 'advice' to those of us who have been in the battle for over ten years. That only discredits YOU whether you know it or not.

[1StrongBlackMan]

59. ??? ...

Piece of advice, don't use anyone who spent the Bush years, when we were all here or on other Dem forums fighting hard to stop Republicans from destroying this country and helping to get Dems back in power, posting on hate sites like FR as a source of 'advice' for Democrats. I don't take advice from anyone who was a FR during those awful times. Nor does any other Democrat I know.

Who did that? And it is not a single person; but a number of peoplec... many of whom that yell their progressive/Democratic credentials.

I understand why people are angry ... I have been told as much and I tend to believe people when they tell me their reasons for doing whatever it is that they do/have done.

[99Forever]

22. Funny how quickly they ...

... tuck tail and run when called on their bullshit, isn't it?

[Recursion]

25. Were you just gloating to me, whom you claim to have vanquished?

[99Forever]

27. I was pointing out the glaringly obvious.

So much for your bucket-o'-fail guilt trip, eh Mr Third Way?

[bahrbearian]

39. +1

[TreasonousBastard]

38. Without specifics, that sounds like just whining about...

how you didn't get your way.

OK, you worked for a candidate. You walked, you talked, you phoned, you wrote checks...

Then what did said candidate do or not do to piss you off? Back down on a promise? Vote the "wrong" way?

Was there some overriding issue that said politician agreed with you on then changed his or her vote?

Here's the thing-- we're never going to agree 100% with anyone in office, and that's made worse by the bullshit officeholders have to go through from constituents with different goals and different campaign contributions and connections.

So, maybe we have a core group absolute positions. The problem there is that maybe nobody goes along with all of them and there's no one else to support.

So, maybe we weight positions and try to support someone who has enough "points" and then the point totals drop after they're in office.

Or, maybe we just insist they do as we say on everything and they can piss off if they don't.

[99Forever]

47. It isn't just one issue or one candidate.

What the fuck is it with centrist apologists and making stupid assumptions anyway?

But keep right on taking ASSinine cheap shots at people like me, that's a sure fire winning strategy.

[TreasonousBastard]

53. I asked what happened to you that got you so pissed...

and this is the response I get?

Did I ask in the wrong way?

Did I do something else to incur your justifiable wrath?

Or is this just the way you are?

[JaneyVee]

46. I think poster is saying don't look for leaders, be a leader.

[99Forever]

48. Really?

Like the TPTB of status quo will let an actual LIBERAL, not some lying pretender "be a leader" in this corporate controlled "political party."

[Recursion]

58. So you think it's "TPTB", and not "reality sets in when you have to actually accomplish things"?

We disagree, then.

[99Forever]

63. We do indeed disagree.

You accept excuses for lies told, I don't.

That's reality.

[GoneFishin]

14. +1000. A whole hearted effort looks a lot different than play acting to give yourself cover

and plausible deniability. When he fights for a corporatist interest like TPP or the ACA Health Insurance Mandate he just does it, with no prevaricating and no apologies.

When Dennis Kucinich was not going to support ACA, he took him for a ride on Airforce One and voila, Dennis does what he is told.

But with any liberal issue (where money is involved) he feigns weakness and helplessness, shrugs his shoulders (metaphorically) and blames the republicans (who are indeed assholes). But he never actually expends so much as a crumb of political capital. It looks like play acting to me, much like when Harry Reid pretends that he wants to end the filibuster.

[Marr]

28. +1

[Demeter]

7. If you think participating in the political discussion ISN'T activism

then you aren't very democratically inclined.

Too many people in this country for too long have been fundamentally apathetic about government, ignorant of its activities, history and trends, and disconnected from the processes of public decision-making.

Writing a check without knowing who you are dealing with, and what they intend to spend the money on, isn't activism, it's suckerdom.

[Recursion]

9. I do see your point

And "signing a check" was the weakest of the three I advocated. Hm.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Persuading 'Moderate Incrimenalists' to get over their fears and support equality was and is

activism, DU was a great place to do that in part because so very many of you nearly Republican right wing Democrats who adore the status quo congregate here.
You think offering money, shitty old money that grows on trees, is better than interaction with others?

[Recursion]

24. Me? No. I'm a "knock and drag" kind of guy

That's, personally, how I show my DNC love.

[RiffRandell]

43. It is better with your attitude.

Constructive criticism: You are extremely selfish and rude here.

Your posts always talk about how your family is affected negatively with certain policies and I sympathize with you...I truly do.

But it seems like it's always just about you. What about my family? The OP was trying to unite everyone here as we used to have a common enemy.

Now the common enemy seems to be progressives...and how WE ALL rate on the progressive scale.

[Silent3]

10. Discussion here, however, comes close to "preaching to the choir"...

...not that this choir sings in great harmony most of the time!

The discussions that I'd guess produce greater impact are the ones that aren't always as comfortable and easy to get into, with friends and family and coworkers.

[Dustlawyer]

12. I agree as well. I see DU members who I disagree with and I try to engage in a fruitful discussion.

I have had my mind changed here about many things, and I have hopefully opened a few minds to what I believe as well.
From my standpoint, I believe that a very high percentage of politicians, R's & D's, are bought off and no longer Represent their Constituants. I believe we need Publicly Funded Elections and other campaign finance reform measures in order to regain our Representative government.
Many here still believe the DNC is alive and well and Democrats are what they claim to be. Not me!

[HappyMe]

13. I think posting here barely makes it

into the activism column. Name calling and chair flinging doesn't change minds, it alienates them. We used to make fun of the Dubya 'with us or against us' way of thinking.

Thinking that posting here is making any massive changes, let alone small changes is 'suckerdom'. Change happens out there in the real world. Phone calls, face to face discussion, contacting representatives and fund raising work best.

[Demeter]

18. Not everyone inhabits the BOG, or even visits it

Some veteran members of DU actually post issues and discuss them intelligently. Seek out those fora: Economy, Environment, etc. that are not dominated by the immature.

[HappyMe]

19. I'm not a subscriber to the BOG

or even go for a visit. I was talking about the chair flinging in GD that both sides do.

I will visit those groups, thanks for the tip.

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. 6 lines ...

6 lines of absolute agreement. I find that rare these days.

[mmonk]

15. I differ a little. We both happen to want Republicans defeated.

But after the deregulation that sunk the economy in 2008, I recognize the role the centrists or Third Way played in it as I do in income inequality and the movement away from a progressive tax system.

[Lars39]

20. Interesting post considering you live outside US now.

[Recursion]

21. I'm here on orders from the US Government

Do you have an issue with that, Lars39?

[Lars39]

26. I'll always have a problem with centrists,

third way types hectoring from afar. Smacks of an agenda.

[Number23]

54. Didn't you get the memo? Americans that live in other countries need not respond to ANYTHING

And apparently, the only foreigners whose opinions are allowed are those that despise this administration as much as the Cool Kids do.

And remind folks that Freepers think and act this exact same way and watch these people lose their shit.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. I love it when right leaning Democrats announce that any energies spent attempting to influencee

the Party members is 'not activism'. Why do I love that? Because it lets me know that they also understand that the soul of the Party is in contention.
I have no desire to yield the Party of my father to a bunch of nearly Republican excuse makers who spent the first many years of Obama's administration whining against marriage equality with crappy reasoning like 'we have to wait until after the next election' or 'Civil Unions are the best solution' or 'I support equality but sadly we will have to wait until the older generation dies off...'
It took shit tons of work within the Party and in Democratic clubs and organizations to get those to the right in this Party to drop the bigotry. So tell me again, oh ye born to full rights, what is and is not activism. You say it is activism to write a fucking check? But not to speak with other voters?
Hilarious stuff. Hold on tight, Recursion, you'll be fine.

[RC]

37. "...right leaning Democrats..." is an oxymoron. Except for the label, there is no such thing.

And yet, here they are, doing as you say.
And contrary to what the right leaning Democrats are trying to tell us, DU is in itself an activist site. That was its purpose for being in the first place. A gathering place for Liberal/Progressive, Center and Left of Center Democrats. We exchange ideas and information. And in doing so, we learn what really happened, not what they want us to think happened. And usually two to three days before it hits the main stream news.

Right leaning Democrats, my ass. They need to find somewhere else to congregate.

[Fumesucker]

30. I suspect a number of posters here are online specifically because they're not good talkers

Not everyone is gifted at verbal persuasion and there are also some of us who are in fact good at verbal persuasion and yet are not happy enough about the Democrats performance in some areas to be able to be persuasive in this case.

Are you sure you want some DUers talking to uncommitted voters?

And then of course there's the issue of lurkers, posters seldom convince one another of the wrongness of our views but lurkers are often looking for information and arguments to decide what they think.

[Recursion]

31. Oh Fumesucker, why do you have to drag the party down?

I see your point, though.....

[Fumesucker]

34. I bet the lurker/poster ratio on DU is pretty damn high

This is a tough room, particularly GD, intimidating place to post since the level of vitriol, in jokes and incomprehensible-to-outsiders argot are all high here.

I read stuff all the time here that wouldn't make a lick of sense to someone who drops in unaware and takes everything at face value and I'm guilty of posting stuff like that too.

[Octafish]

32. Spreading the idea Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman makes me think we're not on the same team.

Particularly in lieu of all that's been learned since the Warren report:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3669766


including Joseph Adams Milteer's taped description of the assassination and cover-up three weeks before Dallas:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023119333#post12


Also that Lenin was a liberal and liberals are capable of violence:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x164825


There are many other examples where you take more than a middle of the road perspective.

[Recursion]

33. Are you seriously docking me for quoting Werner Herzog?

Interesting.

[Octafish]

35. For some reason you think there's nothing NAZI about the direction the country is taking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022152807

I do. So, there is that.

[Rex]

45. Maybe it would be a conflict of interest if he said yes.

nt.

[Recursion]

57. Huh?

I don't even get your point there. I laughed along with somebody else who said "Full Godwin in 1 post", which it was.

[MuseRider]

36. They will turn you down here.

I have never worked for the state party or ever considered it but I have friends that do and have and I have friends that are real, very active activists who the party will not, or I should say until now have not accepted even their time. I have had friends booted out because they don't toe the line. We have candidates the party will not help. None of these people are right of center. Most are left, not all that left and still the party seeks to rid themselves of them even when that means a Republican will fill a seat. Hopefully we are getting past that but it is a good part of the reason Kansas looks like it does now.

That being said, you can work for the candidates that the party leaves dangling in the wind and occasionally you can even get them elected if you work hard enough. You can work issues and you don't need the party to even give a shit about it. You CAN force the party to look at you and accept that you have made a large enough group to effect their lives.

I am a lefty lefty in Kansas. Nobody in this state party would ever accept me and that is fine, I actually prefer working outside the lines here. I have little respect for the way this party has acted here for the most part but have dear friends who are doing the work inside. I have little respect for the way the DNC has left even our very right of center party dangling in the breeze, left our state to become what it is now. It is not pretty yet we do not rate help from the Party.

I attended a caucus as a delegate. I will not tell you what happened there. I lost any interest in party politics that day.

Sometimes you can't change the party from within until you make something large enough they can't ignore it then you shine it in their eyes until they give up and let you in. Then the real fighting to stay relevant begins.

I am less active now than I was. I am tired. It is a very hard job to work in this state as a democrat but as a liberal it has been almost impossible. Still, I do things and I know things from both sides of the spectrum of the Democratic party here. Not lots, just enough to know it is still hard to change a party that does not accept change as a possibility or even as a requirement in spite of losing over and over and being decimated statewide.

[Fumesucker]

44. +1

[rhett o rick]

49. We must fight for our Party. The 1% has bought a lot of influence. nm

[MuseRider]

50. Home of the Koch brothers

Alec runs it all.

I am not a Democrat. I fight for liberal ideals and equality, mainly equality because I think that is one of the most important of liberal ideals there is. If the Democrats ever return to having spines and ideals that are not just watered down Republican ideals I would consider rejoining. I hated to leave but.....Roberts and Alito while the dems kept their powder dry once more was the last of it I could take.

Even if I did rejoin the Democratic Party at some point the party would not be the reason I fought. Sorry, I just simply do not care about what we call each other. I want my country to swing back for the people and that requires lefties.

[mick063]

41. The fence mending won't work this time.

The Reagan way has run it's course. The test results are in. The working poor are many.

The plight of the working poor is the wedge issue of the Democratic Party. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

[Hydra]

42. Nailed it

And a poor way to try and mend a fence, to boot.

[Agnosticsherbet]

51. The Kicker for me is this...

After the 2014 election, Democrats or Republicans will control the House and the Senate. There is simply no other party that is going to move into control and be more responsive to the people. I dislike many of of the things the Democrats have done. I oppose all of the things Republicans have done.

In primaries I will vote for the most liberal contender.

I will support actively individual candidates with money and time if they are liberals.

I will not donate nor work for the Democratic Party itself.

Between a third way centrist Rockefeller Democrat and a Republican, I will vote for the Democrat. I won't donate or work for one.

[steve2470]

52. I see DU as a form of activism

I would never compare it to knocking on doors and protesting, etc but this place (at its best) is a way for people to easily get information they need. Information is power. The wingnuts have their "information", which is usually wrong, so DU can be a source for boots-on-the-ground activists to have correct timely info.

[mick063]

60. The old guard is stuck in the past.

Their biggest fear is social media. Occupy and Arab Spring were the initial spawn of social media and it is still in it's relative infancy.



DU is a sounding board to hone skills. Links to it can be easily distributed on Face book, Twitter, or email. Ideas can be expanded upon by like minded people. The people here add insight and further references for distribution elsewhere. Further, people that regularly read DU are more likely to be politically active. I consider it a wonderful venue to reach a targeted group.

The old guard will "Pooh Pooh" this. Partly because they can't perish the thought of traditional methods growing obsolete. Partly because they must justify their archaic methods as superior. Partly because they can't bear to think they may be using inefficient methods.

The bottom line is this:

Who do you know that will open up their wallet? Who do you know that is dedicated to a cause? Who do you know that can effectively communicate? Who do you know that can create the "Amway-like" pyramid of consensus building?

The method of reaching them is inconsequential. I consider DU to be an important part of the pyramid.

Carl Sagan once calculated the time to read all of the books in the Library of Congress and concluded that a person could not read them all. Hence, he explained, it isn't a matter of reading them all, but a matter of choosing which books to read.

A great analogy with respect to politics. As for communication, one can't reach all of the people, hence it is important to determine which folks to reach.

No one here, on DU, can blindly determine the "reach" of the people that post here.

[steve2470]

61. great post, thank you nt

[Union Scribe]

62. Can I ask what dragging is?

I got the knocking part, but what's the dragging?

[Recursion]

64. Knock on the door and drag them to the voting location

Knock and drag. Every campaign needs a lot of it.

[struggle4progress]

65. "I voted for ya, Mr Lincoln, but now I is real unhappy cuz ya ain't took Richmond yet:

I wuz hittin on Purdy and tossing down some tankards with my buds at the Cock & Bull last week, and we're all agreed that ya oughta get off yer wump and go slap Johnny Reb silly. I is did everthin possible to try to get thru to ya: we all is had this same conversation down at the Cock and Bull week after week, and nuthin ever happens. So if ya don't shape up, we is gonna tell everbody not to vote for you no more, cuz it's the only way to learn ya"