The Capitol Incident: "They didn't have to shoot her."

[WilliamPitt]

There are serious questions as to whether Miriam Carey, the woman at the center of yesterday's incident, could have been detained without getting shot to death. They could have shot out her tires, etc. Plus, there has been a terribly large number of incidents of police shooting the shit out of whatever they please without any conceivable justification. I hope there is an intensive investigation.

...but for the moment, I am going to play Devil's Advocate. She attempted to breach the White House security perimeter, failed, and sped toward the Capitol building. Now, think like a DC cop...in the age of car bombs.

They didn't know she was unarmed. They could very well have thought she was sitting in front of a trunkload of explosives with her finger on a button. She didn't stop, she wouldn't stop, she kept pointing her car at very important buildings.

Security in DC, from top to bottom, is heavily geared toward protection from car bombs. That's why Pennsylvania Avenue has been closed since the OKC and WTC bombings in the 90s. That's why those stone and metal barriers are ubiquitous.

I'm no mind-reader, but I'd bet my bank account that's what those security officers were thinking. I wish Ms. Carey was still alive, if for no other reason than to ask her what that whole thing was all about...

...but if you're the cop who didn't take the shot, and that car blew something or someone up, you'd be a suicide waiting to happen, and everyone would be asking why you didn't fire.

Thoughts?

[srican69]

1. cops are exercising their god given right to shoot and kill anyone they please

[el_bryanto]

7. What a well thought out and reasoned response

I really appreciate the depth with which you grappled with WilliamPitts question - and such pithiness. Very well done. You should certainly be proud of yourself, and definitely not think of yourself as a shallow knee jerk responding jerk.

Bryant

[COLGATE4]

66. This ^^^

[SoLeftIAmRight]

155. I worked for 6 years in the mental health ward of a jail.

We worked with local officers training them to identify and humanly interact with the mentally ill citizens. Some were good some were bad. In a heated situation untrained or fuckedup cops kill. It is that simple. I think cops kill many people that could be safely apprehended. I did not see this kill and can only guess - mother with child driving crazy??? Easy capture.

[kestrel91316]

166. [phone]

[joeglow3]

10. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:56 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

cops are exercising their god given right to shoot and kill anyone they please
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3782756

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This post is just completely over the top. There is no reason for this sort of garbage.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:59 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While it is an extremely ignorant post, I don't believe there is anything against the ToS.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: .
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: A dumb post, but no violation.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Hayabusa]

152. Damn, I thought that this would be about the snarky response to it.

[IdaBriggs]

24. * Who acts like a terrorist by trying to barrel through White House Security in a car. (nt)

[MoonRiver]

44. A crazy terrorist?

The cops did not know what they were dealing with. Washington just experienced a terrorist attack, and I'm sure police were on high alert. Like Will said I wish she were still alive, but I don't fault the cops for what they did.

[IdaBriggs]

49. I am not sure which one scares me the most - the "crazy" ones, or the "sane" ones.

My comment was supposed to be an asterisk to the guy who thinks the cops are just randomly killing people (with me pointing out she was acting like a terrorist).

I can't fault the police either. It is a tragedy on multiple levels.

May she rest in peace, and be seen as a martyr to those who aren't able to access mental health care.

[MoonRiver]

57. I see.

I also heard she hit her head in a fall. That on top of having a baby, experiencing post-partum depression, or, more likely, psychosis, being estranged from her husband, losing her job and possibly health insurance (guaranteeing she had limited access to mental health care), and we have a recipe for disaster.

Hoping her baby has a strong, loving family.

[IdaBriggs]

62. If only we had psychic police who could know all of that!

"This one isn't dangerous - she is just a little messed up now! That one - well, that one is messed up *and* ready to blow us all up! That one just likes to read trash romance novels and is fantasizing about ...."

On second thought - no psychic police!

Sigh. Agree about the baby. Wish her life had been better, and she could have gotten the help she needed before she tried to breach security around the capital / ran people over with her car.

[MoonRiver]

71. Yeah, don't know if I trust my police to be psychic!

After psychics are wrong more times than they are right.

[TheDebbieDee]

161. +1!

[thecrow]

81. Couldn't they have used strong tranquilizer darts?

I'm frustrated by all the killing of these people who go nuts and do something stupid.
If there was a way to totally subdue them in the act, I feel that would be better than putting bullets into their bodies. IMHO, it could be a way to decipher just what made them snap and then apply better psychiatric healing to them. But in the heat of the moment, I understand why they shot her, I just wish it was not with bullets.

[MoonRiver]

85. They didn't know what they were dealing with.

I was watching it as it happened, and I was 100% sure it was a terrorist, domestic or foreign, attack. I fully expected that car to explode at any moment.

Edit: Tranquilizers don't work instantly. If a suspect has a finger on a detonation device, s/he could fire it off before passing out.

[Comrade Grumpy]

180. Well, you were wrong, weren't you? But that lady is still dead.

[Comrade Grumpy]

183. The police use of lethal force here demands an exhaustive investigation.

As it should in every case of police use of lethal force.

I don't think this lady had to be killed. I think police in general are too quick to resort to lethal force.

[matt819]

189. I agree

The problem with an investigation - and there will be an investigation - is that it will conclude that the police acted properly. Internal police investigations always result in this conclusion.

Sure, there's the heat of the moment argument. And I can appreciate that these things happen in a matter of microseconds. But I can't help but wonder if at some point along the way a cooler head might not have taken lethal action.

[MoonRiver]

188. I was wrong, but I could have been right.

Are you OK with taking the chance?

[jeff47]

95. No, those would kill tons of people

The level of tranquilizer required depends on the person's size and individual physiology. For example, anesthesiologists start with an estimate, and then usually have to tweak it a few times.

So you're left with an insufficient dosage, or a dosage high enough to kill. The situation would be many, many times worse than Tazers.

[ann---]

139. I agree

The cops were SO close to her car and looked inside of it. Didn't they see the little child in there? Why not use more effective methods to throw in front of her tires to puncture them? Why not shoot out the tires instead of into the car?

I was aghast when I heard that the person was unarmed. I realize a car bomb is not readily visible, and once she hit the police officer and he bounced off her hood, I could see why they'd feel the need to shoot, but why kill?

I don't understand it.

[dgibby]

162. I seriously doubt they were looking in the back seat.

All attention should have been on the driver. In the video I saw, the tinted windows were up and the sun was shining. I don't know about that car, but my windows are legally tinted and depending on the angle of the sun, I can't see into my car. How were they to know she didn't have a gun or for that matter, a suicide vest? BTW, she WAS armed -with a 2,000lb car she was using as a battering ram, and she'd already managed to elude the police at the WH and at another stop where she injured a secret service agent.

As for her tires, she was traveling at 80mph in heavy DC traffic with police in hot pursuit. It takes time to lay down those strips and there would have been no way to stop her without causing police cars to wreck, too. She was going so fast that she was past the imbedded barriers near the Capitol before they could be automatically deployed. Unfortunately, one of the officers in pursuit did hit them, however, totaling his squad car and injuring himself.

I'm very sad that this young woman was having so many mental health problems and that she is dead. I feel badly for her family and all those involved in this tragic incident; however, I don't know how the police could have made any other decision under the circumstances that were known at the time.

[dgibby]

149. Tranquilizer darts will not stop a person immediately,

only make them more dangerous before they blackout.

[kestrel91316]

167. The drug used in tranquilizer darts for larger wild animals is EXTREMELY dangerous in humans.

In vet school we students were forbidden to handle or work with it. Federal law restricts its use to highly skilled and trained wildlife people and only certain highly trained veterinarians.

M99/etorphine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etorphine

If you accidentally prick your finger with it, you'll probably die.

[thecrow]

175. Well, obviously I would want them to use something less than lethal

[kestrel91316]

187. Name the magical "something", please.

[thecrow]

194. We're not talking about taking down "large wild animals"

You are. And your suggestion mentioned a lethal substance.
That's NOT what I was talking about.
So go somewhere else.

[GreenStormCloud]

173. So you want tanq dart that will penetrate a car body?

They are called bullets.

[alphafemale]

179. I had to rattle my head at that too. A dart that will pierce through a car and be non-lethal.

Ohhhh-kay.

[treestar]

113. Yep. Something was going to happen.

It is almost lucky no one else went with her - there are some injuries and fortunately the child is OK, though there may be psychological damage. But that child could easily have been a casualty.

[progressivebydesign]

143. she has a long history of mental illness... it wasn't the head injury. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

141. she had mental health care...

she just apparently wasn't taking her meds. Don't make her a martyr. But we can question why the hell the anti-tax idiots and the activists, and Big Pharm, are so hellbent on having people who should be committed, living amongst us.. having children... and HOPING they don't go off their meds. This could have been much, much, worse, with many people killed.

[KamaAina]

125. If you were referring to the Navy Yard shooting, it was not a terrorist attack.

But it was an event that called for massive police response, so you are correct that they were still on edge.

[Peacetrain]

96. people who fly planes into buildings?

[IdaBriggs]

112. That would be one good example!

[progressivebydesign]

138. Umm okay.

So next time someone rams a barricade, and this time has a car bom, or AK-47, we'll let them know that you think a hug is a better option.

[Niceguy1]

2. you have seconds to act decisively

She had already uaed her car as a weapon...I think the officers had no other choice...

[newfie11]

29. Exactly right

She could have run over or into innocent people.

[appleannie1]

140. She had already hit a guard with her car. He is lucky to be alive.

[oneshooter]

169. But remember that people killed by a car

don't count as much as people killed by a gun.

Why?

Because cars are not built to kill.

[avaistheone1]

86. They should have shot out her tires instead of killing the poor woman.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. See post 76

[progressivebydesign]

145. oh please. That's TV BS. a car still drives on rims.

AND she could have jumped from the car and started shooting, or detonate a bomb. Stop watching so much tv.

[Niceguy1]

171. that doesn't stop a car

...

[hamsterjill]

88. Agreed

In the beginning of the amateur video that's being shown on several networks, you can clearly see several officers have to jump out of the way of her car when she throws it in reverse and gives it the gas.

It's a sad and horrible situation all the way around. But I will not fault the police's response to this because I've never had to walk in their shoes. They are having to make split second decisions to the best of their ability. And yes, there are some bad eggs who are police officers.

But in this instance, the woman started the problem. They had no way of knowing that she suffered from mental illness. It is impossible for them to have viewed underneath the seat of the car, etc., and had they shot the tires, she might still have exited the vehicle with a gun. They simply did not have enough information to know WHAT they were going to have to deal with.

[apnu]

97. When all you have is seconds... that's when training is supposed to kick in.

As any martial arts practitioner.

The cops were probably trained for this. Not specifically, nobody trains to specifically gun people down in the street like that, but I'm sure some level of training kicked in and the cop was working on autopilot. Its a systemic failure to be sure. I'm quite sure all the cops in the area felt their lives were threatened and acted quite naturally.

I'm not excusing the tragedy, nor am I giving the responding cops and their training a pass either. Reality lies between the two extremes.

[Orsino]

128. Anywhere else but the White House gates...

...the folks with guns would have had more latitude. Until the driver's death, her behavior looked a lot like that of a terrorist intent on detonating some device.

No good options were available, and that sucks.

[BeyondGeography]

3. Wrong place to expect the benefit of the doubt

Agree with your summary.

[randome]

4. I wonder how shooting out tires works in real life as opposed to action movies.

Wouldn't there be a danger of a ricochet? Especially when they had her cornered and surrounded by half a dozen officers.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[jberryhill]

9. Shooting almost anything in real life is problematic

But they did a piss poor job of surrounding her the first time.

[randome]

14. All they had were bodies the first time. And she basically plowed through one officer.

They probably violated procedure by not shooting her then and there. They went the extra mile to give her a chance to stop, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[jberryhill]

19. They had vehicles in the CNN video

By "first time" you mean at the White House or on the west side of the Capitol?

[randome]

25. Wherever it was that the six officers surrounded the car and pointed guns at her.

Sure, maybe they could have done a better job of barricading her in but everything's easier in hindsight. They still went out of their way to give her a chance to stop.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[KittyWampus]

100. shooting almost anything MOVING in real life is even more problematic.

[loli phabay]

32. it does not work well especially with a handgun, a long gun is better

But even then its hard to hit and the thing is tires are rubber so stuff bounces of including rounds if they dont hit square on.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. We need ACA to help deal with the mentally ill in this country.

[mikeysnot]

6. I wonder with all the defense barriers in place

they don't have those road spikes that come up to rip tires off?

[jberryhill]

8. Shooting a bomber is not a good idea either

"They could very well have thought she was sitting in front of a trunkload of explosives with her finger on a button"

And that finger could be holding a switch closed which, if opened, would set off the bomb.

Disarming a bomb with a gun is extremely stupid.

[CJCRANE]

13. What would you do in that situation? nt

[jberryhill]

16. I would construct the bomb to go off if I was killed

I don't understand your question, as I thought I made that clear

[CJCRANE]

17. If you were a police officer in that situation?

Plus how could you hold a switch and drive at 80mph at the same time?

[jberryhill]

20. Oh, I wouldn't be a police officer in that situation

I would be the bomber

[CJCRANE]

23. How would you hold a switch and drive at the same time? nt

[The Straight Story]

26. pretend it is a cell phone (nt)

[CJCRANE]

35. Yes, that's possible but evasive driving holding a cell phone is unlikely

as you need both hands on the steering wheel to do tight turns etc. especially driving at 80mph in an urban environment.

[GreenStormCloud]

177. Use a steering wheel spinner knob.

In the 1950s they were fairly common on young men's cars. Of course this is a modern car so outfitted.


Here are some from then:



On those models the plastic top could be popped off and your favorite picture inserted.

[CJCRANE]

182. If you can drive at 80mph with one hand on the wheel while evading the cops

and concentrate on holding something in your other hand while also reversing and pulling 180 degree turns at high speed...

then you're a better man or woman than me.

In reality, I think the device would go off prematurely.

[GreenStormCloud]

184. Likely, it would go off prematurely. But those spinners do add much to a driver's ability to turn.

N/T

[CJCRANE]

186. True. I can imagine they would be useful during normal driving conditions. nt

[jberryhill]

31. If I don't push the button every 45 seconds it goes off

Easy 555 timer circuit on a breadboard.

[CJCRANE]

38. So the cops should've just let the car reach it's presumed target? nt

[jberryhill]

106. She wasn't shot until the car was immobilized

Unless the presumed target was a median strip.

[CJCRANE]

109. Did you see the video? The car wasn't immobilized, it was driving away from the cops AFAIK.

The cops were on foot. They had her car surrounded but she reversed into a cop car suddenly then accelerated forward through the group of cops (possibly hitting one of them).

[jberryhill]

114. That video wasn't where she was shot

That was on the west side of the Capitol. After going around the circle and driving off at the end of that video, she turned up Constitution, and THEN crashed and was immobilized.

After she was immobilized - THAT was when she was shot.

Did YOU see the video? Nobody is shooting in that video, and it should be pretty obvious that she is still alive at the end of that video, because she is still driving.

[CJCRANE]

116. I saw the one from yesterday where she drove behind some trees and we heard some gunshots.

Maybe it was edited because in that video it seemed like she didn't drive far before the shooting started.

[jberryhill]

121. Eventually, the motorcycles catch up and one guy breaks the windshield with his helmet

[CJCRANE]

126. That was a different incident. Methinks you're just being contrarian for the sake of it.

That's a fun thing to do but doesn't add to the discussion.

[jberryhill]

129. Yes, it is as relevant as

referring me to "the one I saw yesterday".

If you have a video of the shooting which you would like to use as a reference for this discussion, then please provide a link to it.

The video made by the Arabic speaking tourist is nowhere near where the shooting happened, and does not include the shooting.

So if you want to ask me "Did you see the video?" in reference to the shooting, then the answer is "No, I did not". Neither did you. Would you like to provide some reference to the video of the shooting?

Because if you are not going to do that, then we might as well watch the SUV chased by motorcycles for all the relevance it has to the situation extant at the time of the shooting of this person.

To recap:

I said the car was not moving when she was shot. She had crashed and was going nowhere.

You claim a video contradicts me.

What video?

[CJCRANE]

135. You could be right.

I'm not here to prove a point.

I'll watch the TV news tonight to see if there's any more information.

[jberryhill]

163. Or you could simply read the story accompanying the video at CNN

"Dramatic video footage by a videographer for Alhurra TV, a Middle Eastern news outlet financed by the U.S. government, showed the black vehicle then speeding around a nearby traffic circle with a police car in close pursuit and then heading away. The car crashed into more security barriers a few blocks later, witnesses said.

More shots were fired after the vehicle stopped, and the woman was hit several times, said Metropolitan Police Department Chief Cathy Lanier. Carey was later pronounced dead, Lanier said. Two officers were injured."

She got a "few blocks" away from the location of the video which you insist shows the shooting. Unless the guy with the camera is one heck of a sprinter, the video you reference is not relevant to the location and circumstances of the terminal phase of this event.

Other still pictures from where she ended up shows the car on a median.

[CJCRANE]

165. Thanks for the info. The shots in the video were fired while the car was moving.

So either:

a) those were the shots that incapacitated the driver causing her to crash
b) or those shots had no effect and she drove off for a few blocks, crashed somewhere else and was then shot at again and was finally incapacitated.

The shots in the video were fired literally seconds after she pulled away, precluding option (b) if they were the fatal shots.

Option (b) might still be correct but I don't have time to analyze it right now.

I think I'll still watch the TV news update later on when I get a chance.

[RC]

68. Or better yet, hold the switch open with your right foot.

It doesn't have anything else to do.

[progressivebydesign]

148. your attention to detail is rather frightening... n/t

[KinMd]

90. Of course if she had escaped again and driven into a group of pedestrians

then there would be those asking why didn't they shoot her to stop her?

[treestar]

117. Absolutely!

That is so absolutely right. Some people just hate cops and second guess their every decision in every case.

[progressivebydesign]

150. Bingo! and if they hadn't done it and she killed the baby, they'd blame the cops nt

[hootinholler]

40. I think CJ's asking about a strategy in confronting a bomber

Accepting the likelihood of a dead man trigger (which is more lethal if a delay is involved).

[LuvNewcastle]

28. That's what I was thinking. If they thought she had the car rigged with

explosives, shooting her was the wrong thing to do. I don't know what was going through their minds, but killing someone should be a last resort, and it just seemed like they were shooting without thinking. I'm wondering if those cops were ordered to kill her.

[pintobean]

48. What would be the right thing t do?

Escort her to her destination?

[LuvNewcastle]

64. I just think they could have found a way to stop her without killing her.

I'm sure there were people assessing the situation who told the cops to shoot her, so that's what they did. Maybe next time they'll have better plans in place to deal with situations like that.

[markpkessinger]

178. I am usually the first to criticize excessive use of force by police; however, in this case . . .

. . . I don't really see as how the police had much choice. She was an immediate threat to the public, and the first responsibility police have in a situation like that is to stop that threat. It's enough to say 'they could have found a way to stop her without killing her," or that they should have had "better plans in place," when you aren't tasked with the job of finding those alternate means or formulating those better plans, and doing so in a manner that still accomplishes the objective of neutralizing the threat to the public.

Don't get me wrong: I think the entire situation is a very sad and tragic event and a horrible indictment of the state of mental healthcare in this country. But we can't really expect police, in the context of an unfolding security and public safety emergency, to compensate for those wider societal shortcomings.

[Thor_MN]

83. They were doing their job. Which would be keep a bomb from getting to the target.

Even if it means it goes off in their face. Think Secret Service stepping between their protectee and a person with a gun and then "making themself big", to block as much area as they can.

[loli phabay]

41. hate to disagree with you, but the choice is to shoot the bomber even if there is a dead man switch

And have it go off or let the bomb reach its target or a more populated area and the bomb still goes off, even if you persuade the bomber to give up theres a good chance there is a backup trigger that is controlled by a third party watching. There are no win win scenarios when dealing with this stuff.

[Democat]

84. Jumping in front of bullet or on a grenade is a bad idea.

But people do it to save others.

[jeff47]

99. Dead man switches aren't frequently used in real life

You aren't using the most reliable people - remember, their abilities are such that they think blowing themselves up is their best option.

So dead man switches tend to result in premature detonation. They leave little margin for error, and by definition you are putting it in the hands of someone who makes a lot of errors.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

104. Ding ding ding ! you are so right JB. nt

[Sissyk]

11. It's very sad that she was killed.

But, no. I don't think the cops had another choice. I wouldn't want their jobs.

[frazzled]

12. It wasn't a case of each officer thinking individually

about what to do. They were officially authorized by superiors, at some point, to use force.

Although tragic in the end, I believe that was the right decision for the authorities to make.

[The Straight Story]

15. Kind of feel the same way about someone breaking into a home

You don't know if they are armed or not and by the time you find out it could be too late. The person does not belong there, broke the law to could in to your home in the first place, and you have no idea of their intention. Not to mention you don't know if they are alone, and you may have only seconds to respond.

Now given the case you mention, the age of car bombs and such - the same could be said of anyone involved in a police chase (not to mention the potential of them smashing into others). Often when the vehicle does stop they do pull their guns but don't shoot.

While SOME may have car bombs the amount percentage wise is quite low. Should we project this fear now to all vehicles that do not stop?

[Eleanors38]

70. Interesting to see this discussion of armed self-defense. nt

[geek tragedy]

18. Very sad, but they didn't have much of a choice knowing what they did. nt

[Courtesy Flush]

21. I feel like it was justified

Yes, American cops are far too trigger happy, but sometimes they are justified in using deadly force, and this is one of those times.

We can all pick it apart over our morning coffee, but they didn't have that luxury. This woman posed an immediate threat to their lives, and to the public.

[wercal]

22. Something bugs me about this whole entire thing.

This woman 'sped' towards a barricade, but couldn't get through it. This is what we are being told.

But look at her car. The front of the car is visible in some of the video.

Does it look like it hit a barricade at high speed? Does it even look like it went through the 5 mph bumper test?

Is it possible this woman took a wrong turn, and completed freaked out when the police swarmed her?

If she really was depressed and wanted to go down in a blaze of glory...would she really take her baby with her?

I've gotta go to the store and pick up some tin foil.

[WilliamPitt]

27. "Is it possible this woman took a wrong turn, and completed freaked out when the police swarmed her"

Honestly, given what we are learning about her mental issues, I've been worried about that very same exact thing.

[hootinholler]

46. That's a distinct possibility

Especially if she's using apple maps

No one seems to know why she drove to DC that I've heard yet.

[wercal]

51. I know somebody who went into diabetic shock and rammed some cars on the highway.

It was completely out of character for him. Youtube is filled with videos of similar incidents.

I can see a scenario where this woman made a wrong turn, encountered the barrier (and may have even hit it at slow speed), and got extremely scared about the entire situation...then guards start to draw guns and she just looses it, and goes on the run.

[RobinA]

127. Completely Possible

I work with the seriously mentally ill. When they feel threatened they can react as if their lives depend upon it. That's why the traditional police policy of overwhelming a suspect always backfires with the mentally ill. You or I, if confronted with an overwhelming force, will stop. That's why the police do the overkill thing. The well person does not attack 6 police officers pointing guns at them. A mentally ill person, when confronted with an overwhelming force, will fight harder. Confronted with six police officers? Pick up a piece of metal you see lying on the ground and start swinging it (actual situation, cops trained due to mental health facility in area.) In a physical melee with 6 cops? Try to grab a gun off one of them (actual situation, ill guy shot dead.) Three cops coming at you? Attack with a box cutter (actual situation, ill guy shot dead.) That's why mentally ill people tend to get shot more often in a police fracas.

In this case, in the moment we are living in, I'm not sure I can fault the police. In retrospect, you might come up with a different way of handling this, but it was in paranoid Washington, a couple weeks after a mass shooting, in a year of mass shootings, on the news bombers are blowing things up, blame is a sport. These cops could have been damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[jberryhill]

132. That's what I was thinking yesterday

However, this appears to be another instance of the government using secret mind control on crazy people to get them to do stuff.

[mnhtnbb]

43. She did not take a wrong turn. She attempted to get through a White House gate

then turned and sped up to the Capitol (if you know DC it's not a short distance) running
red lights and being clocked at 80 mph at one point, with Secret Service and police cars
in pursuit. If she took a wrong turn, that was the point to pull over.

[wercal]

47. Question

Would not this entrance to the White House grounds, which was protected by a barricade and armed security, also have....


...a security camera?

Has the news gotten hold of the actual 'ramming'? If not - why?

The whole 80 mph chase part would be post freak out. In my scenario, she makes a wrong turn, is confronted with deadly force, and freaks out.

Again, where is the damage to her car from the ramming?

[Marrah_G]

69. Of course there are cameras

They just haven't released the videos to the news.

[kmlisle]

118. There is video on the web of her ramming the barriers

and then backing up into a police car. she then sped off at high speed going around traffic circles, up on curbs and medians driving very fast. Her windows were up so I don't know how you would get a tranquilizer dart into a car going 80 mph. The crosswalks were full of people. Even without a bomb she presented a real danger to others. Its a tragedy but I think the officers may have had no other choices. She broke the leg of one officer. Thank goodness no one else including her little daughter was killed.

Here is the video:

[wercal]

122. That is not the initial event

She is already being pursued in this video....what started it all? That's what I'd like to see.

[progressivebydesign]

153. She was obsessed and thought Obama was stalking her..

she was breaking through the barricades to get to the White House... thank god she didn't have a weapon, but the police couldn't know that.

[wercal]

164. How do you know that

"....she was breaking through the barricades to get to the White House"

You know this because the police and SS said she did.

Here is a link to the Washington Post timeline of events:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/local/capitol-shooting/?hpid=z2

The triggering event occurred at 15th and E. I went to Google maps and took a ground view look...its a relatively confusing intersection with striped turn lanes overlapping bike lanes, and some sort of fiberglass pickets to keep people in the correct lane. And its one way out of the WH grounds. Now, I have to say, if I wanted to barrel my way into the White House, this is the last entrance I would choose. The two northern entrances cut the distance to the actual WH building in half, over the southern entrances. You can't even see the WH from the 15th and E entrance.

Now the timeline states that she 'strikes a security post'. Then 'Witnesses said officers pull a metal barrier into the driver's path, but the driver accelerates, knocking down the barricade and striking a uniformed Secret Service officer before hurtling east down Pennsylvania Avenue'.

Now if you look at the map and Google, somewhere along the way, she has to turn around. She can't come from the west...yet she speeds of from west to east. So she enters this area, hits a post, apparently tries to turn around, the SS are trying to block her ability to leave by pulling a fence in front of her car. It all sounds more and more like she didn't know where she was going and got scared. And when they tried to box her in, she panicked and ran.

But nothing indicates that she 'was breaking through the barricades to get to the White House'. It sounds more likely that she entered the wrong entrance, and got panicked turning around with SS agents trying to box her in. The street view shows several guys with AR-15's just sitting there...she could have stumbled into a similar scene.

And the fact she had some type of fixation with the president doesn't change this possible narrative. She very well may have been trying to go to the WH...like attempting to legally get to the WH, when this all happened.

Again, I would love to see footage of the initial incident. This would indicate where her actions lay on the spectrum of 'lost tourist' to 'ramming barricades'.

[TorchTheWitch]

190. I don't care if she was scared or not

I also don't car if she was somehow mentally handicapped. The simple fact is that she presented a very real enormous danger to everyone in her path and had to be stopped.

This is all armchair day after hindsight. At the time it was happening not only was she presenting a very serious danger to anyone in her path there was no way of knowing what her intentions were - if she was messed up in the head, scared or whatever. They TRIED stopping her by conventional means and she blew through a barrier they tried to use to stop her injuring an officer without a care. There was no way to know at the time if she was a terrorist with guns or a bomb or what.

It's really interesting that at the time we first found out about this incident everyone here was thinking it was some crazy intentionally trying to harm or a terrorist yet only in hindsight after finding out about her mental health problems or wondering if she just got so scared that she hit a post that she went on a wild crazy dangerous ride trying to escape police and not giving a shit who or what she mowed down in the process. At the time of the event she HAD to be stopped, and I for one am damn grateful that she was because if they DIDN'T do what they did to stop her she could have blown up a bomb or jumped out of the car spraying gunfire while the police let it happen. Then a bunch of people would be here slamming the police for farting around with their thumbs up their asses not doing anything like shoot her to stop her from her crazy dangerous attack on Obama, Democrats, liberals, etc. and claiming they didn't stop her because it was a horrible Repub conspiracy to try to take out the President and at such a crucial time in the government.

The police don't have the luxury of hindsight and scratching their asses wondering if a serious immediate danger is just someone that didn't take their meds or was so scared they blew through a police barrier, drove on sidewalks not caring who they mowed down (and frankly anyone that gets that scared because of hitting a post or taking a wrong turn has no damn business having access to any vehicle) while she's driving 80mph evading police. They have mere seconds to assess the situation and make these decisions, and FUCK anyone that does all this criticizing in hindsight they haven't GOT.

Go become a police officer and deal with the shit they have to deal with every damn time they go to work. I'm so God damned SICK of this constant bashing of every police officer in the nation that's been allowed to go on on DU ever since I've been here and that only gets worse and worse. It's flat out bigotry no damn different than hating every black person in the nation believing that every one of them are dangerous thugs that should never be trusted or even spoken to. And the saddest thing is that if I were to put every person here on Ignore that does it I'd largely be looking at a bunch of blank pages. Since WHEN is it considered "liberal" to believe every single cop is a shooting wild west thug? They AREN'T, and they have the job of going to work every day with a real threat that they might die on the job. God damn, we even had a thread full of people here bashing of a police DOG because some shitbag drunk decided it would be fun to bark and growl at it. Anyone does that to my PET dog is getting both my feet so far up their ass they'd be licking my toenails never mind getting a citation for it. Even though I'm on my last few hundred dollars with no job, no prospect of one and have no damn idea how I'll pay the rent this month I STILL wouldn't work as a police officer no matter how much I got paid if they handed it to me tonight. Why? Because I'd be scared shitless to deal with what they do on a daily basis always wondering if this is the day I get killed for doing my job even if I COULD do it when it seems like the entire world hates me for trying to protect people.

[wercal]

191. Should I put you down for a no?

Somewhere between calling me a racist and telling me to fuck myself I read between the lines that you are opposed to learning the entire story.

Thats the bubble you live in. Enjoy.

[MADem]

147. She believed she could communicate with Obama. Her head wasn't in reality. She was unmedicated.

Miriam Carey, Woman Killed In Capitol Chase, Thought President Obama Was ‘Listening To Her’
Carey's Mother Says Daughter Suffered From Postpartum Depression
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/04/mother-of-stamford-woman-killed-in-capitol-chase-says-daughter-was-depressed/

(My editorial observation--I think it was a bit more than that....)

.....The chain of events began Thursday when Carey sped onto a driveway leading to the White House, over a set of barricades.

When she couldn’t get through a second barrier, she spun the car in the opposite direction and then sped down Pennsylvania Avenue. Then the chase began.

She was surrounded by police cars, but drove off, careening around a traffic circle and past the north side of the Capitol. Video shot by a TV cameraman showed police pointing firearms at her car before she rammed a Secret Service vehicle and continued driving. ...... “Stamford police had a couple of contacts with her involving what they described as delusional statements, that President Obama was listening to her and communicating and so on”, said CBS News’ senior correspondent John Miller. ”So they’re going back over those reports to see if any of that can enlighten them to what was her mental state.”

She had fallen down stairs and hit her head--that might have contributed to some of her problems, but that's for a doctor to say:

He said Carey had been away from the job for a period after falling down a staircase and suffering a head injury, and she learned she was pregnant during the time she was hospitalized. He said it was a few weeks after she returned to the office that she was fired.

[winter is coming]

156. I'm trying to imagine someone clocking 80 mph on those streets.

If the government weren't shutdown, we would have seen a lot more people hurt.

[Tree-Hugger]

73. Would she take her baby with her?

Yes. Look at tragedies with women suffering from post partum depression. They kill themselves and their kids, or they harm or kill just their kids.

Or, if it had just been an accidental ramming and subsequent panic, would she really want to risk her baby's life by speeding at 80mph, running red lights, ramming police cars, running over officers....? It doesn't seem like she had her baby's safety as a top priority whether she was mentally ill or not.

I keep wondering what would have been next? Would she have rammed her car into more objects? Would she have blown more lights at high speed, increasing her risk of a t-bone accident? What would have happened to the baby then?

[wercal]

79. She may have thought she was protecting the baby

Which is more plausible:

1. She believes Obama is stalking her, so she goes to the WH, a drives right up to an unauthorized entrance to catatonically stare at her nemesis. LE aggressively reacts to her, and she (being on schizophrenic meds) flips out. She thinks her life is in danger, and doesn't know why all these guards are drawing guns on her and her baby. The chase ensues.

2. She suffers from post partum depression, and uncharacteristically for a woman, she decides to go down in a blaze of glory. And, instead of drowning her baby, or smothering it, or poisoning it, she uncharacteristically straps the baby in for the final rampage. She floors it, and flies into the WH barricade (magically doing zero damage to her car). The chase ensues.

[Tree-Hugger]

82. She may have thought that...

...she was protecting her baby. However, she wasn't. She put her baby, civilians, and officers in danger for whatever motive. The cops were justified in their actions.

[wercal]

91. I'm not suggesting that the cops weren't justified...

.....after she started going Starsky and Hutch on them.

But I would like to know what set her off. I'm not convinced she aggressively tried to smash her way onto the WH grounds. It may have been something less serious, or even completely innocent. I want to see the initial police reaction, after she 'hit a security post'., and I'd like to see how hard she actually 'hit' that post, since her car was not damaged in the front.

[Tree-Hugger]

107. I see where you're coming from...

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I hope we get more information as the days go by.

[markpkessinger]

174. Re: ". . . .would she really take her baby with her?"

What about the many stories where an emotionally disturbed person takes out spouse and kids before doing himself/herself in? A desperately suicidal person isn't necessarily going to be capable of the kind of rational thought process that a relatively mentally healthy person employs when thinking about this in the abstract.

[wercal]

176. True

But when I think of women killing their children, I think of Susan Smith rolling her car into a lake, or that zealot in Texas who drowned her kids in the bathtub. Putting the baby in the car is 1) unreliable as a method of killing the child 2) Not characteristic of the way women tend to kill children.

[sendero]

30. I think way too many cops..

.. abuse their power these days, but in this case it's hard to fault them. Given what we know of the incident, I don't think it was unreasonable for the cops to worry if this was some kind of terror attack.

It seems the person's main crime was being bat-shit insane but that is not her fault. Nor is it the fault of the cops for not being able to tell what was really happening and to prepare for the worst.

It's just a sad event that really IMHO isn't anyone's fault.

[mnhtnbb]

33. They had the car surrounded at one point with weapons pointed at her.

Still, she managed to drive away. She upped the ante at that point,
and made it more likely that it would indeed end with suicide by cop.

Still, you have to wonder why she had that child in the car. Unless she
was determined to have the death of the child as collateral damage
without having to kill it herself.

Mental illness causes people to do what we call 'crazy' things. The whole
thing is just very sad, but I think when she drove away after having
been surrounded by officers with weapons, she sealed her fate.

[n2doc]

67. agree totally

People seem to forget that cars can be lethal weapons as well, and even shooting tires out doesn't stop a car in many cases.

[Paladin]

34. I side with law enforcement on this one. (nt)

[seabeyond]

39. what a ridiculous post. nt

[seabeyond]

37. i agree. exactly. nt

[Raine1967]

42. The person was a danger to the public.

When she failed to stop, that car was considered a weapon being used by the suspect. I don't honestly think at this point she could have gotten out alive, not after she escaped a second time with the vehicle. It's sad she's dead but she wasn't stopping and there was no time for Law enforcement to deem her anything but an immediate danger.

You are spot on correct about security and the concern of car bombs here in DC. At one point she was driving 85 miles an hour -- in an area that always has a lot of tourists. It's amazing she was the only fatality yesterday.

What I know is that I was able to breath a huge sigh of relief upon learning that it was not an 'active shooter situation'. My husband's office was on lockdown for a bit yesterday He works about 3 blocks from where the chase finally ended.

[Savannahmann]

52. When they shot, the car was contained.

Blocked from further movement. They didn't shoot at her until they had the car contained. Interesting factoid there my friend.

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. When they first had the car surrounded on foot (before she fled) they did not shoot her.

Sorry, but the moment she fled, it was over. Seeing the video only solidifies that the cops did the only thing they could do, given that set of circumstances.

[Raine1967]

60. Exactly.

She not only attempted to enter White House Property but she was then heading towards the capitol grounds.

This isn't some crazy police car chase in just any city. This was a serious situation. I'm glad more people weren't killed or run over. That's the amazing part to me.

[Raine1967]

55. They shot the car after she escaped from a first containment.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but there was no way to know if she had explosives, etc.

I happen to agree with the OP.

[seveneyes]

45. I would have first assumed a dead man switch if I thought explosivies were onboard

Which in that case would preclude shooting to kill. I would have tried to box her in and then negotiate and clear the area.

[bigwillq]

50. I think the cops did what they thought was best in that situation.

I support their decision in this instance.

[HappyMe]

53. I wish it had ended differently too.

But the fact of the matter is, is that you can't ram into the WH security barrier or threaten the Capitol like that. They had no way of knowing if the car was a bomb. I don't know how the police or anyone else there could think differently. Given the amount of hate there is out there for the President, I think they did what they had to. I think that the shooting the tires thing is kind of goofy. Real life doesn't work like a movie. She was driving a Lexus. I'm sure that that car comes with top of the line tires.

People are saying that the police were endangering the child's life. Maybe. But I think she put her child in danger the minute she put the child into the car in CT.

[lapislzi]

56. Real easy to second-guess

You weren't there. You aren't trained.

I am inclined to trust the professionals. Saying that doesn't mean I don't wish it would have turned out differently. I wish the woman would have surrendered without losing her life. I wish she could have crashed into something that would have definitively disabled her vehicle without causing further harm.

I wish there weren't crazy people doing crazy things.

But I'm no professional, at least not at law enforcement, threat assessment, sharpshooting, public safety, or any of the other disciplines that DC needs experts in.

[DinahMoeHum]

72. +1

n/t

[Coyotl]

58. A bomber would have a method of exploding if shot.

There is good reason to NOT shoot a potential bomber.

[jeff47]

102. Yes, because it's only by shooting that the bomb would go off.

Suicide bombers aren't the most reliable and skilled people. You don't put dead man switches on them, because you can't count on them keeping the switch closed.

[bottomofthehill]

151. It actually makes the actions of the police more heroic

She was away from the Capitol building and any large crowds of people. If there wasa bomb, they were taking the chance thet by shooting her, it may go off but with a minimum loss of life. The people around the car were all LE when the shots were fired.

[ScreamingMeemie]

59. As horrendously sad as it is, there in nothing else that could have been done.

Seeing the video and realizing that the police did not open fire until she took off after they surrounded her... well, tragically and because I value the safety of our President and all of the tourists/pedestrians in the area, that's all they could have/should have done. No matter what the underlying circumstances where (which the police had no idea of--unless one believes in ESP).

[Vinnie From Indy]

61. There are actually times when the Police have to use deadly force.

This may be one of those times!

[hootinholler]

63. The intersection where it started is confusing to begin with

If you're not familiar with the streets it is easy to get funneled by traffic into the WH entry lane.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=15th+st+NW+and+pennsylvania+ave+NW,+dc&hl=en&sll=38.895467,-77.033681&sspn=0.000541,0.001128&t=h&hnear=Pennsylvania+Ave+NW+%26+15th+St+NW,+Washington,+District+of+Columbia+20004&z=16

Unfortunately the marker is 1 block north of the intersection.

I can see this starting as a freakout by someone already on edge.

The cops played it about the way they had to, but I wish they hadn't missed the opportunity to box her car in.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

65. Is/was there a better option?

I haven't heard one. Better access to mental health care may have helped or maybe not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Shoot the tires...only one thing to this

It is not, contrary to some thinking, a Hollywood production.

She used deadly force, as you later stated, with her weapon, a car. Therefore, deadly force is authorized.

at the beginning paragraph

[WilliamPitt]

76. ?

My first paragraph? Why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. None who knows anything about firearms

or real police work, would give a second to shooting tires. It is a trick shot, like shooting arms and legs. It is not the center of mass. They will try to disable the driver. Small arms might or might not have enough oomph to go through the engine block. It depends on the engine block and the round in question. This did not go long enough where spikes could be deployed.

I know people have written that, but truly this is what happens in a movie studio, not in the real world.

Hubby and I were talking about it. Vehicle was fleeing the cops, meaning they have different rules of engagement than our local PD, which cannot open fire at a vehicle going away from them, but cleared (obviously) if it's coming towards them. This is due to the obvious risk of missing your target, easy to do actually, and hitting a bystander. The not so obvious, disable the driver and have a full speed bullet that is not under control, that be the car. Worst case scenario, in death thrown the perp pushes the accelerator all the way down to the floorboard.

Overall, I think everybody was lucky nobody else was hit.

And that is that.

The photo of the cop on perimeter with a riffle though, at the Capitol, is far more impressive and scary and telling.

[Orsino]

144. I would add that there are snipers atop the White House 24/7...

...but even if these had somehow had a chance to disable the vehicle, their mission is a bit different from that of the police.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. Exactly

Though they do have the weapons platforms that in a pinch might be used that way, the AA platforms. Think Germans and 88 in WWII a true AA platform, oops, it takes out tanks too

Though I wonder if the snipers have 50 cals. That would definitely go through a Lexus engine block (aluminum) and then some.

[zappaman]

154. Yes, but do those snipers have riffles? n/t

[maddezmom]

158. .....

I just DU googled and am

And now even at my autocorrect error.

[grantcart]

75. There are written procedures.

After the incident check to see if the police followed procedure.

If you want to change the procedure fine but you don't want policemen making policy and procedure opinions "on the go".

[Pretzel_Warrior]

77. Sounds reasonable to me.

[sabrina 1]

78. No, they didn't have to shoot her. But this is the 'shoot first ask questions

later' culture and she isn't the first or the last who has and will be shot to death in this country.

We are a society that believes there is only one solution to everything, violence!

RIP to yet another victim of our culture of violence.

[EX500rider]

134. "RIP to yet another victim of our culture of violence."

Right, 'cause all those other peaceful countries guard their leaders residence with squirt guns and wagging fingers....

[mythology]

192. Okay, now I've got an image of

the British Beefeaters holding squirt guns and wagging their fingers in my head.

[dinger130]

89. My first thought like a lot of other people

was to shoot her tires out. I don't understand why it wasn't done.

My son has schizophrenia. I've see this type of behavior from him over the years. Keeping them on their meds is a challenge in itself and of course there is only limited help in the U.S. Thank you Reagan.

My son can be having psychotic episodes and I'm lucky if he can remain in the hospital for even a mere three days.

[jeff47]

105. Because in the real world, that doesn't work.

First, there's this car body in the way. And it's made of metal. And you have a relatively small arm. You can't be sure it's going to actually reach the tire.

So, pull along side? Yeah, having twice as much high-speed vehicle width is a great idea for hitting other cars or running over pedestrians. But even if we ignore that, we're now at the point where you are in a weaving vehicle, aiming at a weaving vehicle. It's an incredibly difficult shot to take. Plus, even if you hit the tire, you are shooting at a combination of rubber and steel - your bullet will bounce off unless you shoot it close to dead-on.

And after all that, you blow out the tire and....the car keeps going. Because losing a tire won't actually stop a car. The best it can do is slow it down.

[CarrieLynne]

92. it was a tragedy and another example of our fine mental healthcare system....

its sick and sad....but i cant really blame the cops in this case...

[heaven05]

93. To me

it seems like, in the heat of the moment, a tough call. Don't get me wrong, our security/peace officers are shooting first and asking questions later, everywhere, these days. No more kind and gentle anywhere. It is all hardcore draconian measures now. And a mean, mean society.

[Demeter]

94. I thought the whole point of all this NSA dragnet spying was to protect us from car bombs

and other weapons of mass destruction...

but as we see time after time, those justifications are just Mass DECEPTION.


All we are being protected from is privacy and freedom from blackmail, and all those other civil rights.

[Egalitarian Thug]

98. The terrorists won, that's my thought. Most days I'm just numbed to this sad fact,

but every now and then I remember the people and the nation I grew up in. That's when the realization hits and I get back to preparing to get out. We didn't fight back even a little bit, we just fell to our knees, cowering and pleading for the bad people to please not hurt us.

[Junkdrawer]

101. The details have me concerned....

Four time slices:

1.) Car stopped, somewhat surrounded. Cops had to see the baby onboard. Guns are drawn. No shots.

2.) Car takes off. No shots while the car is endangering cops we can see.

3.) Car goes behind trees. Seven shots fired. Where were they shooting? Were these the fatal shots?

4.) Car at final crash/stop point. Reports are sketchy, but it sounds like THIS was where she was killed. No video I'm aware of. What happened here?

[Skittles]

103. I think they were trying to save that baby

she could have crashed the car again

[Spitfire of ATJ]

108. The only thing that stops a bad girl in a car is a good guy with a gun.

[littlewolf]

110. IF they had shot her in the car

I would have understood a lot more. she got out of the car and started to run away. they shot her in the back, which allows for 2 questions.
1. tackle her, how many cops were there.
2. use a Taser.

when she ran the car was no longer a weapon.
using a Taser would have prevented her from
using a trigging device.

now I understand their procedures, and as one can be
tell by some of the things I post, I am NOT a huge
fan of a lot of the things cops do. That said
in THIS case I accept their training, and in the aftermath
procedures maybe changed.

[onenote]

130. Do you have a link for the statement that she was shot in the back?

[littlewolf]

168. no, I swear I saw it yesterday. went back and nada.

for not being able to provide that I am sorry.

[treestar]

111. I always want to ask people who say these things

what they do for a living. Some people think they are experts in every field. It just doesn't occur to them not to pass judgment on people doing a job they know nothing about.

Maybe they could have gotten out of it without shooting her dead had they done a better job. But I see no reason to assume the worst, and would rather find out what people with experience in the field have to say about it first.

I really think some people just need to feel better about themselves by putting someone else down, so they look as hard as they can for the "mistakes" of others, so they can pass judgment on somebody as being "worse" than they are.

[progressoid]

115. This happened because Obama is scared and we don't have prayer in school anymore.

According to youtube comments.

[CJCRANE]

119. I heard it was marxist fundamentalists conspiring to impose muslamic atheism on everyone.

[Orrex]

120. If the driver were a middle eastern man, the media wouldn't be asking any questions

At least, they wouldn't be questioning the legitimacy of the kill. They'd be asking what kind of monster would endanger a child in this way, and they'd be asking why the police didn't act sooner to stop him.


If this had happened in Topeka it might be a different story, but all the cops knew is that they had to stop a person from using a vehicle as a weapon in the nation's capital. I'm sure that everyone on DU would shoot out the tires and rush in to save the baby before the car had rolled to a halt, but the cops don't have our righteous powers of faultless split-second decision making.

[leveymg]

123. The guy who invented the car bomb should be shot. Ms. Carey, not so much.

[No Vested Interest]

124. There was a report last evening that the woman suffered

from post-partum depression.
If accurate, that could account her unreasonable actions.

I cannot judge whether she had to be shot to death under the circumstances, but my heart goes out to her child left to grow without her mother, and to her family, left to "clean up" the mess.

[MADem]

131. Another unmedicated individual with psychiatric issues.

She wasn't carrying a gun but she was driving a car that she used as a weapon to injure not one but two police.

Ironically, those police were not getting paid because of Bonehead's shutdown.

DC is a major security zone around the governmental buildings. Anyone who doesn't realize that slept through Nahn Wun Wun.

[DireStrike]

133. On shooting out tires - basically it's dangerous and far from a sure thing

(and if you check my posting history I think police are a bunch of reckless criminals much of the time.)

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-didnt-police-shoot-out-miriam-careys-tires-2013-10

...snip...

Couldn't they have just shot out her tires?

Dr. Daniel Kennedy, an expert on police force, told Business Insider that if police had shot at Carey's tires they likely would have missed. In that case, Kennedy said, the bullet could have ricocheted on the ground or off the vehicle itself and possibly injured somebody else.

"Same reason they don't shoot a gun out of a bad guy's hand," Kennedy told BI in an email message. "Police only hit maybe 20% [of the time] where they try to in a fluid situation."

Indeed, other experts have cautioned police against shooting out tires, including criminologist Rick Parent. Here's what Parent had to say on the subject in an article posted by the Police Policy Studies Council:

One of the more frequent police injuries appears to be caused when officers attempt to 'shoot out the tires' of suspect vehicles. The automobile and the wheels that it rests upon are largely made of steel. The concrete or asphalt roadway that the vehicle rests upon serve to further compound the situation. When a high speed lead bullet is discharged in the general area of a vehicle, ricochets and metal fragments abound. Unlike the scenes depicted by 'Hollywood', the 'shooting out of a tire' can be a precarious and dangerous event.

[onenote]

185. Also, a blowout of a tire on a car travelling at high speed can have very bad results

Including the driver losing control of the vehicle, in which case you have a number of possible bad outcomes: the car hits another car or a pedestrian, causing serious injury or loss of life; the car hits something like a tree or a wall or goes airborn and flips over, possibly killing the driver and, in this instance very likely killing a one year old.

Life isn't the movies.

[progressivebydesign]

136. She got what she wanted.

She was obsessed with killing the President, as she believed he was stalking her. The shooting was totally justified. And if it was a fucking car bomb, what would people saying today with hundreds of people dead at the Capitol????

use your heads people. We create our own reality and our own demise, regardless of our mental health...

Again.. because she was a woman in a sedan we're supposed to shoot the tires out and let her continue driving??? To get closer to run over visitors? Or again, how the hell would they know if she had explosives in the car, or a weapon.

Stop wringing your hands, people.

[warrant46]

142. Somehow I don't think "She GOT what she Wanted"

[progressivebydesign]

157. REally? Because the majority of these people want to Suicide By Cop.

She was mentally ill before she had the baby. She had meds, and was obsessed that the President was stalking her. People are painting her as some poor mommy that had depression and went off the deep end. She was mentally ill, the baby is irrelevant. And she was obsessed with this, and was being sued, and was no doubt trying to go out in a blaze. As IF that doesn't happen. Showed no regard for her baby at all... again, probably hoping for someone else to do the dirty work because of her mental illness. I'm grateful she didn't kill her baby, at least.

[steve2470]

137. I watched the video twice, the cops had remarkable restraint

When she rammed the barrier at the White House, if the Secret Service was "trigger happy", they could have blown her away right then and there. Instead, they were trying to talk to her.

She knocked one SS agent to the ground and sped out of there. She drove like a bat out of hell across DC to the Capitol, and the cops had no idea if she had a bomb etc. If she was sane and rational, she would have surrendered at the White House. Unfortunately, she was in the grips of a paranoid delusion (probably an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic patient or having a breakthrough episode of paranoid psychosis...my guess). Maybe she refused treatment and/or wasn't taking her anti-psychotic medication.

It's a horrible tragedy all the way around, and even more so because her daughter is now mother-less. Imagine growing up and eventually finding out your mother died this way. So sad and so terrible.

[CC]

159. The more I hear about her

and it still isn't much I wonder if she didn't set out to commit suicide by cop. Just a guess but she wouldn't be the first. No matter what it is sad that something drove her to do this and with her child in the car.

[krispos42]

160. A car is hard to stop immediately

Watch "World's Wildest Police Chases" and see what happens when you have a determined driver behind the wheel. Four flats doesn't stop them, blown radiators, entire wheels flying off, ruined suspensions, overheating engines, and severe body damage will not quickly stop a car, and this is a critical point when you're in a city full of pedestrians. Hell, I've seen fleeing cars catch fire, and the driver keeps on going.

Bullets would need to hit something critical, like the engine management computer or the ignition pack or the fuel pump, to bring the car to an abrupt halt. And how do you shoot those things?

And the methods required to bring somebody to a full stop are inherently violent and not particularly controllable. Barricades, PIT maneuvers, and running the car off into a building all have varying degrees of risk to the police and bystanders, as well as to the passengers of the car.

The human driver, though, is soft and squishy, and vulnerable to bullets.



We tend to see damage in terms of cosmetics or costs of repair. We have to understand that the driver doesn't give a flying shit about cosmetics or repairs or depreciation or how many more tens of thousands of miles the car will list. A deranged driver only cares about the next few seconds or few minutes. A car is perfectly drivable on rims, or with the suspension collapsed, or bullet holes in the sheet metal.

Think "Jason Bourne", or perhaps "Grand Theft Auto". The car is disposable, and a replacement in America is only yards away.

[Jamastiene]

170. It was a rough situation all the way around.

The police had no way of knowing she was mentally ill or if she had a bomb or what. It's just such a sad situation for that baby to have to grow up without a mother. Sometimes "fault" doesn't necessarily need to be laid on anyone. If the mother really was mentally ill, she can't really be faulted because she didn't really have control of herself. The cops had no way of knowing what her intentions were or if she had a bomb, so they can't really be blamed in this instance. The only thing that is certain is what was done is done now and it is a sad situation all the way around.

[B Calm]

172. I applaud the cops. Hell they were not even being paid because of the shutdown.

[Hekate]

181. Agree with you, Will

The shooter over at Navy was also mentally ill, and he killed a dozen people just like that.

The time to work with mentally ill people is BEFORE they go completely haywire, and we don't have flawless systems in place for that kind of intervention. Hell, we don't even have good systems in place.

But once it all goes pear-shaped, and violent and fast-moving crime is in progress, those who are tasked with defending the public (and in this case, Presidential) safety do not have time to proceed gently. They have a job to do, and they have to act quickly.

Footnote: At times like these I lose patience with lengthy subthreads about cops run amok with Tasers. That is a separate problem that urgently needs fixing. But that was not the situation yesterday when this woman tried to ram the White House with her car. Focus, people, focus.

[SomethingFishy]

193. Agreed. There has been a lot of talk about "shooting out the tires"

not shooting to kill, tasers and the like.

Seems to me that at this point in time with the shutdown in place and the entire country angry, the cops did what they thought they needed to. For all they knew she had a damn nuke in the trunk.

I think the backlash is coming hard and fast because of the general behavior of cops in the last few years. The cops have made it plainly known that once you are on their radar you better do exactly what they tell you, when they tell you, or you suffer the risk of a ton of added "resisting arrest" charges, not to mention getting tased or worse.. shot.

My usual first instinct in any situation with the police is to be suspicious of the police. In this situation I have no doubt they were in the right.