Some of you have been watching too many "The Lone Ranger" reruns!

[PCIntern]

Clayton Moore, as the Lone Ranger, had the skill of being able to shoot a bad guy's trigger finger so he couldn't fire his gun, or nick another guy in the shoulder so he dropped his gun, or just winged one in the leg, make him fall and drop his gun. All I can say to that is "Bwahaha!"

Folks, there is no such thing as shooting to wound or disable. No one is THAT good a shot, and no one knew whether there was a bomb in the car, or what her intentions were, or if she were a diversion, or anything about her at all whatsoever except that she was using a 2000 pound weapon relentlessly.

It is a shame that she was ill, presuming that that is correct. It is a shame that she died. It would have been a greater shame if anyone else had.

[wercal]

1. What I would love to see -

Footage of her actually ramming the barricade.

In the footage we do see, her car looks to be in good shape. So exactly how hard did she drive into the barricade?

Yes, after she starts using her car to push police cars and fly wildly around the district, she sealed her fate...

...but what made her freak out in the first place?

Was she really a disturbed person, hell bent on ramming the White House?

Or was she a lost person who went into the wrong area, and was confronted with armed guards...and flipped out. It was just reported that she had schizophrenia meds in her home, so being confronted by an armed guard could have been very distressing to her. No, the cops had no way of knowing she was anything less than a terrorist...but lets see the initial encounter between her and LE.

Wouldn't this entrance have had a security camera? Lets see it. Lets see who amplified the level of force in the situation first.

[dgibby]

2. Per MSNBC:

Her mother said she had mental health issues, including a head injury and post partum depression. Evidence was found that indicated that she believed President Obama was stalking her.

Per CNN: Authorities found anti-pyschotics and antidepressive meds in her home.

[wercal]

3. I've read all of this

And maybe she drove to DC with something nefarious in mind.

But lets see the 'ramming'. Did she ram the barricade? Or drive up to it and catatonically stare at the White House?

And what was the LE reaction...and was their initial reaction appropriate?

Right now we are relying on LE's version of events to answer these questions in our minds....but there is a huge flaw in their version of events, as her car does not look like it rammed into anything with its front end.

And schizophrenia drugs were found in her home - so if the initial police reaction to her was hyperbolic, it would make sense that she would flip out and lead them in a chase.

BTW, I had to chuckle: "she believed President Obama was stalking her". In light of recent NSA revelations, was she really that off base?

[dgibby]

4. IIRC,

the DC police chief said the entire incident happened in a very short timespan. There was no way for the police to know what they were dealing with, other than she was using her car as a weapon, had already injured a secret service agent, engaged in a high speed chase through DC traffic (having lived in NOVA at one time, I give her props for her driving skills-surprised she didn't kill more than a few citizens), and resisted orders to cease and desist.

I realize in hindsight that she was probably not in anyway responsible for any of this, but hindsight is always 20/20. I agree there's more we need to know, but based on the info available to the police at the time of the incident, I don't know what else they could have/should have done.

[hedgehog]

5. Sad but true.

Is there anyone here who didn't wonder,at least for a moment, whether this was the start of some Tea party group attempting a government overthrow?


On edit: the police had no idea whether or not she was about to trigger a car bomb - a very real scenario.

[PCIntern]

6. Perhaps...just perhaps...

They could have sent her a "sternly worded letter".

[dgibby]

7. Series!!11's!!!

So easy to second guess the folks who are in the middle of what was a dangerous situation, especially when those doing the guessing are not in harm's way and don't have to make split-second decisions.

Where I'm coming from on all of this:

My dad was the Chief of Police in our small city. There was never a day that he left for work that we didn't worry about whether or not he'd come home that evening. When the courthouse burned, he went into the burning building to free the prisoners in the jail. He missed being crushed to death by just seconds when the clock tower fell through 3 floors into the basement, and my family was told he was dead. Needless to say, it was a huge relief to see him walking out of that building with all the prisoners safely in tow.

He was, by all accounts, a good police officer, dedicated to the idea of protect and serve, and he had no problem firing officers who didn't share that committment. There was nothing he detested more than a bad cop, and he wouldn't tolerate them. In his opinion, they were a menace to the public and to their fellow officers.

In his 24 years as Chief, he never once had to draw his gun, as he was quite good at talking people out of bad situations; however, I do think he'd have done exactly what those officers did yesterday, given the circumstances.

When he died in '67, more than a thousand people attended his funeral, and those who couldn't get into the church lined both sides of Main St. for more than a mlle from the church to the cemetery.

Needless to say, my life experiences color my perceptions re: police actions, but I, too, detest bad cops, and have NO tolerance for them; however, in situations like this, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are known.

[wercal]

10. Here is the sequence as reported in the media:

1. She rams a security barricade
2. SS approach her
3. She flees, almost hitting a SS officer
4. Pursuit
5. They contain her
6. She tries to ram her way free
7. They shoot her and the chase is over

After item no. 3 occurs, I am not second guessing what happened. I agree that the police in pursuit had no idea how this started, and their only job is to end it.

But how did it start?

How badly did she threaten WH security? And was the initial LE response to that appropriate - or did they amplify the level of tension in the situation? We are being told she hit a security barrier...but her car isn't damaged. Some news reports even characterize it as a full speed ramming...because that is what LE told them.

Lets see the footage of the primary event. That's all I'm asking.

[jeff47]

8. :eyes:

Did she ram the barricade? Or drive up to it and catatonically stare at the White House?

She hit a Secret Service agent. She then managed to lead police on a high-speed chase through a city that has some of the densest traffic in the world while not hitting any other cars or random pedestrians.

You can't have it both ways. Either she's an incompetent driver who just got lost, in which case she couldn't have pulled off the chase, or she was not just lost.

Add to that these barriers are not subtle. They're brightly painted, plastered with "Do not enter" signs, topped with fencing. No one would think they could just nudge them aside.

but there is a huge flaw in their version of events, as her car does not look like it rammed into anything with its front end.

It doesn't have to be 60mph to count as "ramming".

BTW, I had to chuckle: "she believed President Obama was stalking her". In light of recent NSA revelations, was she really that off base?

Considering those revelations actually don't include data on US persons except for phone metadata, yes.

I'm very much enjoying this little addition to your post - you have an entire post where you whine about not having all the information, and then you completely blow it when you do have all the information.

[wercal]

12. I'm just asking questions.

She hit a Secret Service agent.

After the initial event. Lets see the initial event. You might remember a story from a few months ago, where ABC officers mistakenly believed a woman was improperly buying beer...they swarmed her car, guns drawn, and she sped away. Could this also have been a similar case...a case of extreme over-reaction by police, and she responded by speeding away (and almost hitting the SS officer)? I'm just curious to see if there is security video footage....or am I supposed to sit down, shut up, and believe LE's version of events without question?

It doesn't have to be 60mph to count as "ramming".

I accidentally backed a new car into a pole once...just barely touched it. I was mad at myself, because this 2 mph crash chipped the paint and creased the fiberglass. Wouldn't you expect to see some damage to the front of her car? We can see very close up photos of the car...and no damage. Did she give the barricade a 'love tap' slower than my 2 mph crash? Was it intentional...or perhaps and accident? Did she really physically contact a barrier at all? I'm just curious to see if there is security video footage....or am I supposed to sit down, shut up, and believe LE's version of events without question?

Considering those revelations actually don't include data on US persons except for phone metadata, yes.

Apparently you have been satisfied to just sit down, shut up, and believe NSA's version of events without question. The metadata only meme was their original response. That response has changed:

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, (D-N.Y.) said during a House Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday that he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed “simply based on an analyst deciding that,” CNET reported late Saturday. "I was rather startled," said Nadler. CNET said the authorization appears to extend to e-mail and text messages too because the same legal standards apply to Internet communications.

link: http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/305803-report-nsa-admits-listening-to-phone-calls-without-warrants

Looks like Congressman Nadler wasn't content to just sit down, shut up, and believe NSA's version of events without question. I'm glad his voice wasn't dismissed.

Me? I'll keep asking questions.

You can sit down, shut up, and believe LE's version of events without question if you like.

[jeff47]

16. No, you're not.

She hit a Secret Service agent.

After the initial event.

During the initial event.

Woman hits barricade. Secret Service agent comes over to stop her and see what's going on. Woman hits agent.

here ABC officers mistakenly believed a woman was improperly buying beer...they swarmed her car, guns drawn, and she sped away. Could this also have been a similar case

No, because you left out the critical detail in that story - The officers were plainclothes and did not identify themselves. That's not the case here - the Secret Service agents guarding the White House grounds are in uniform.

I accidentally backed a new car into a pole once...just barely touched it. I was mad at myself, because this 2 mph crash chipped the paint and creased the fiberglass. Wouldn't you expect to see some damage to the front of her car?

It's a low-res video with a bad angle, not a microscopic examination.

or am I supposed to sit down, shut up, and believe LE's version of events without question?

And here's where you expose the lie that is the subject of your post. You're not "just asking questions". You're looking for an angle to attack law enforcement.

Apparently you have been satisfied to just sit down, shut up, and believe NSA's version of events without question. The metadata only meme was their original response. That response has changed:

No, I'm talking about the documents that Snowden actually leaked.

Looks like Congressman Nadler wasn't content to just sit down, shut up, and believe NSA's version of events without question. I'm glad his voice wasn't dismissed.

No, it looks like he, along with you, don't understand the distinction between "US Person" and not "US Person".

You can sit down, shut up, and believe LE's version of events without question if you like.

No, you're just blindly accepting someone else's story. It just doesn't happen to be LE's side. On the other hand, I actually bothered to read the leaked documents.

[wercal]

17. Don't like questions that might embarass LE, eh?

Woman hits barricade. Secret Service agent comes over to stop her and see what's going on. Woman hits agent.

According to the Washington Post, you are incorrect. According to witness accounts, the agent was trying to drag a barricade in front of her...and this is when she hits him and speeds off east...away from the WH. So she goes into this wrong entrance, turns around...the SS try to box her in with a portable fence (treating her like Al Quaeda instead of a lost tourist), and she panics and hits the gas.

That's not the case here - the Secret Service agents guarding the White House grounds are in uniform.

If you go to the 15th and E intersection on Google Street view, you will see several guys in yellow vests with AR-15s. Imagine if she really was just confused and entered the wrong entrance...and this group met her. Does the uniform really keep her from panicking...we now know she was taking Schizophrenia meds.

It's a low-res video with a bad angle, not a microscopic examination.

Go to this link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2442703/Miriam-Carey-Dental-hygienist-shot-dead-Capitol-Hill-suffered-postpartum-depression.html

Scroll down until you see the destroyed police car (this btw is what a car looks like after it hits a barricade). The photo above it is the car in its final resting place. No damage. Now scroll back up to the very first photo of the car. The caption reads "...after the female driver rammed a barricade close to the White House on Thursday". When you read 'rammed', do you expect to see a car with no visible damage? Something doesn't add up.

You're looking for an angle to attack law enforcement.

I'm 101% sure your vision is clouded because of some connection to law enforcement.

No, it looks like he, along with you, don't understand the distinction between "US Person" and not "US Person".

First you contend it was only metadata. When I point out they can listen to the actual CONTENTS of a call, you forget your original contention and claim its only used on foreigners. Its not. The NSA has been listening to foreign conversations for decades. The big revelation, the entire reason this is newsworthy, is that this is DOMESTIC. And even if they aren't listening to it, the NSA has publicly admitted that it records as many conversations as it can in a buffer for 5 years. That's your conversations....the NSA itself has acknowledge that your last phone call will be saved on tape for 5 years, if they like. No warrant, no indictment, no standard of probably cause, and of course you wouldn't even know about it.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

9. I don't believe secret service is in the habit of releasing

Security video. In fact, to do so undermines security measures at the White House.

You'll just have to hope some lucky tourist got it on their smart phone.

[wercal]

13. Last week I watched the Navy Yard shooting on tape

It took around 48 hours for security footage, from inside a secure facility to be released to the media.

If 'security concerns' prevent a release this time, I become even more cynical.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

14. Not saying they WON'T release it but

Would be surprised if they did release it.

Secure Navy facility not equal to White House Secret Service security.

[wercal]

15. This was outdoors, in plain view

What secret could possibly be revealed by a security tape? Other than one that makes the SS look bad?

We need more transparency in government.

[Lurks Often]

11. Stop with those troublesome facts!!!!

Everybody knows all police can hit a dime at 100 yards with their handgun while running backwards because they have super powers!!!



Seriously, I am continually shocked at either the naivety or ignorance people show about how law enforcement works. The first responsibility the police had was to the public at large, which includes the politicians; their second responsibility was to go home unhurt after the end of their shift, only then did the welfare of the poor woman and her baby come into play.