The #1 reason Americans cannot afford health care:

[Playinghardball]

[Hydra]

1. They don't provide a service that medicare can't do better

But Profit(for the few) is God right now.

[TBF]

2. Profit is God in this country -

not everywhere. And it doesn't have to be this way forever. In fact, a society without money might please me very much.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

[tclambert]

6. Yeah, and yet non-profit corporations exist and do quite well.

I really like Credit Unions. They do everything a bank does and better because they don't try to invent ridiculous fees with which to rob their depositors. Banks hate them . . . for the same reason.

Lately I'm trying to start arguments by saying, "Businesses do NOT exist primarily to make profit. That's not why human beings created businesses. We made businesses in order to improve people's lives, workers' as well as customers'." Oh, watch the Republicans splutter when you drop that bomb on them!

[TBF]

16. The non-profits exist because they are useful for capitalists -

it is easy for them to say "oh there are lots of organizations that help folks" as a way to show that capitalism isn't such a bad system and they also use them for write-offs on their taxes. I yearn for a day when they are not needed.

[AllyCat]

20. Love this explanation of business purpose.

[Recursion]

61. If profit were the only reason for businesses, every business would be a hedge fund

Ironically, at that point there could be no hedge funds.

Businesses are diverse systems with multiple stakeholders and a wide variety of purposes.

[DissidentVoice]

84. My wife works at a credit union

She has been there for the past six years.

Prior to that, she was at a bank for 10+ years.

She says they are like night and day, and no way would she ever want to go back to a bank, for exactly the reasons you meantioned.

She says that her former boss at the bank, who read the Wall Street Journal on the shitter (so help me, it's true!), would be aghast at the Credit Union's stated non-profit goals.

[southerncrone]

29. I plant the seed of "no money society" in those I meet every chance I can.

I want people to "Imagine". Just like John Lennon did.
I find many cannot even conceive of such a world. Evil has such a deep taproot.

[Hydra]

33. Many People would rather have a bad known

Than a possibly good unknown.

It's scary to them that there's another way to do things.

[Recursion]

37. The only no money places I've seen were incredibly poor west African villages

Yes, all was held in common, etc. But that's easier to romanticize than to live.

[TBF]

45. Well how many are living all that great now?

It's a pretty small number who are hoarding most of the $$$.

[Recursion]

47. Compared to rural west Africa? About 90% of the world

There's a reason people leave those villages to live in what by western standards are hellholes like Lagos or Mumbai.

[TBF]

48. That's your standard?

That if all the workers are living better than those in Lagos or Mumbai then it's perfectly fine for us to throw billions of dollars at just a few CEO's for doing nothing?

How about if we take the money away from the billionaires and bring UP the standard of living of those in Lagos and Mumbai (not to mention many other areas that could use help).

[Recursion]

51. No, it's not my standard. It's *their* standard

That if all the workers are living better than those in Lagos or Mumbai then it's perfectly fine for us to throw billions of dollars at just a few CEO's for doing nothing?

What a weird thing to suggest

How about if we take the money away from the billionaires and bring UP the standard of living of those in Lagos and Mumbai (not to mention many other areas that could use help).

How about it? The ways we've tried doing that haven't worked very well and have only tended to enrich the already-rich in the countries we're trying to help. If you have some good ideas, consider writing to Rajiv Shah, head of the US Agency for International Development (USAID), once the shutdown is over. Here is their web page.

[Roland99]

3. $158 Million/yr from just those 5 people alone

that's a lot insurance premiums for those who can't afford it!

[Recursion]

36. That's 50 cents per American, or $4 per uninsured American

The problem is much more systemic than that.

[Roland99]

41. Or the full annual, non-subsidized premiums for about 16,000 - 17,000 uninsured families.

[joeglow3]

44. Leaving millions still uninsured

The problem is MUCH greater than just that.

[Roland99]

52. Right...you're missing my point!

if just *5* execs' salaries can cover over 15,000 families entire annual premiums, (that's pushing 50,000 total people w/insurance coverage then), imagine if CEO pay/options was something more realistic and not such a huge burden on companies' cash flow? Or, hell, if they donated or offered to pay their employees' premiums?

[LWolf]

63. I'm fine with that.

Give us a universal health CARE program, free at point of service, funded by taxes.

I've always had insurance. That doesn't mean that I can afford care.

[Jim Warren]

4. Thank you

for raising this point that illuminates the difference between what has become the multiple rackets of health insurance, administration, big pharma and basic health care.

I see so very little discussion of the simple emperor has no clothes question of just why health care cost so damn much in this country, instead the focus has been skillfully shifted to accept that and wonder how do we pay for it.

[Auggie]

5. Former WellPoint CEO Angela Braly: $20.6 million

[Cryptoad]

7. According to SSA

one half of the wage earners in this country make less than $27 K / yr!

That number was $38 K / yr (adjusted for inflation) back before the GOP started their Supply Side economic policies!

Thats Why!

[Blue Idaho]

8. For. Profit. Healthcare.

What a dumb idea.

[bvar22]

11. Health Care Professionals deserve to make good money, even profits.

Health care Professionals provide a necessary service that requires YEARS of training and dedication, and contribute HEAVILY to the quality of our lives and culture.

Health Insurance Professionals do NOT deserve to make a profit.
The Health Insurance Industry:

*Manufactures NOTHING

*Provide NO useful service

*Create NO Wealth (Value Added)

*Adds NOTHING to our quality of Life or our Culture.

The Health Insurance Industry is 100% Parasitic.
WE carry those useless assholes on OUR backs.

The main problem with the ACA is that we will NOW be "subsidizing" these parasites from our Public Treasury, and have enshrined these jackals as the Gateway to Health Care in America.





You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[Jim Warren]

14. Agree with what you wrote

but I'd also love to see Health Care Professionals lead the charge to shake free the parasites from the system.

[TBF]

18. Agree. Cut out the middle man -

nothing makes me angrier than when my doctor writes a prescription and the insurance company tries to deny it or suggest cheaper alternatives. They couldn't care less about my health - they just want that extra profit for themselves.

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. +1.

The main problem with the ACA is we will NOW be subsidizing these parasites from our Public Treasury, and have enshirned these jackals as the Gateway to Health Care In America.


Some will say, that was the best deal we could get.....

[southerncrone]

31. +10000

[Recursion]

38. Ummm... health insurance creates quite a bit of value

I don't have to save up enough money to cover all possible medical expenses. That's a huge value to me, and to the economy since I can now spend that money I'm not saving up.

Insurance does create value, which doesn't mean we're doing it very smartly right now.

[LWolf]

56. Of course,

with a national universal non-profit health CARE system, free at point of service and funded by taxes, you wouldn't have to save up anything to cover medical expenses. Neither would you be paying an insurance premium, or copays, or deductibles.

Of course, your taxes might go up. Or not, depending on what you make. But it would still be cheaper than paying for for-profit "insurance," and then paying for what care they don't deny.

[Recursion]

58. I'm pretty sure I've only ever had non-profit insurance

Maybe way back when I was at a .com we used a for-profit provider, but since then it's always been not-for-profits provisioning it. It hasn't been noticeably cheaper.

[alarimer]

64. Blue Cross Blue Shield is "non-profit"

Which definitely belongs in quotes, because it doesn't mean what you think it means. A while back, these "non-profit" insurance companies were sitting on huge surpluses, but asking for enormous rate increases.

Here's an old report from Consumers Union.

http://consumersunion.org/news/nonprofit-health-insurers-hoard-billions-in-surpluses/

And of course their CEOs make gobs of money too, just not as much as the for-profits. The CEO of BC/BS of North Carolina earned $2.5 million in 2012.

http://www.wral.com/blue-cross-profits-down-exec-compensation-up/12171245/

I personally think that's way too high for those executives.

[Recursion]

65. It's pretty much always been through a university or trade association for me

I've mostly worked for not-for-profits when I was in the private sector.

[idwiyo]

57. k&r

[questionseverything]

75. standing ovation for that post!

k&r

[Playinghardball]

9. Top 10 Highest Earners at California Non-Profit Health Systems

CEOs at the largest non-profit hospitals and health systems in California raked in millions in 2010, as compensation packages ranged from $1.9 million to more than $7.7 million, according to a report from the Institute for Health & Socio-Economic Policy (pdf).

The IHSP, which is part of the California Nurses Association/National Nurses United, released the report in conjunction with the state's new focus on California non-profit hospitals and their charity care requirements.

Here are the 10 highest-compensated California non-profit hospital leaders. Note: All data is from 2010.

• George Halvorson, CEO of Oakland-based Kaiser Permanente and Kaiser Foundation Hospitals: $7.74 million
• Pat Fry, CEO of Sacramento-based Sutter Health: $4.79 million
• Lloyd Dean, CEO of San Francisco-based Dignity Health: $4.76 million
• Martin Brotman, MD, senior vide president of education, research and philanthropy at Sutter Health: $4.29 million
• Thomas Priselac, CEO of Los Angeles-based Cedars-Sinai Health System: $3.92 million
• J. Kendall Anderson, former CEO of Walnut Creek-based John Muir Health: $2.39 million
• Sara Krevans, COO of Sutter Health: $2.09 million
• Ed Berdick, senior vice president for shared services at Sutter Health: $2.02 million
• Martha Marsh, former CEO of Palo Alto-based Stanford Hospital & Clinics: $1.92 million
• Chris Van Gorder, CEO of San Diego-based Scripps Health: $1.91 million

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/compensation-issues/top-10-highest-earners-at-california-non-profit-health-systems.html

[airplaneman]

15. Its the same story at the major non-profit charities.

This idea that we mimic USA style corporation thinking for charities or non-profit is immoral.
These are not charities or non-profits at all - they are wealth generating machines disguised as non-profit or charitable. This is one of many things that has to change in this county. The just plain geed is totally disgusting.
-Airplane

[TBF]

19. Exactly -

and they also serve a purpose in that capitalists can point to them and say "oh we have charity for folks who don't do well in the system".

As I wrote in response to another thread, I yearn for a day when they are not necessary.

[AllyCat]

22. Yup. Non-profit in name only is the way of much

Of it right now.

[alarimer]

66. I think most of the big charities are scams.

Susan G. Komen, which supposedly gets a cut of all the pink items this money, sends very little of that money to where it needs to go. This and other charities are places for rich people to sink their ill-gotten gains and make it look like their doing something.

Every employer usually has some kind of charitable campaign to get their employees to donate money to various causes. We could choose from a variety of charities. But it's very important to look at the percentage of your donation that goes to where it is supposed to go. For the big charities, that number is usually pretty small. For smaller organizations, it is higher.

[libdem4life]

68. Basicly non-profits don't have shareholders and are not listed on the stock exchange. All the

"profit" goes to administration...a whopping 40%..I'd imagine it is more with bonuses, etc.

Obamacare legislates that no more than 20% can be "expensed" and 80% must go to health care...cuts the upper share/profits in half.

There needs to be a powerful watch dog posted over the entire system...Medicare, too. I'm sure that Elizabeth Warren could help us find a sane group of overseers.

[bvar22]

78. I would LOVE to own a business where the Government Guaranteed me a 20% profit,

(Cost PLUS) and MANDATED my customers.
Deduct 3% for the paperwork & overhead,....and that leaves 17% Pure GRAVY!

Good work if have the right connections.

[libdem4life]

82. I don't for sure whether it's guaranteed but the devil will be in the details, to be sure.

Single Payer...hope to see it my lifetime. Employ the former for-profit health insurance wage-earners and farm the rest out to fend for themselves the old fashioned way.

[progressoid]

10. USA! USA! USA!

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. America! Fuck yeah!

[Initech]

12. They get rich while the world burns. Fuck them!

[They_Live]

13. Being paid a living wage

would also help to make ends meet.

[The Midway Rebel]

17. K & R

This needs to be part of the discourse.

[sendero]

21. If only it were just CEOs..

... it's almost everyone in the system that is overpaid. Except the primary care physician. Health care is a very very profitable business for almost everyone involved, and it has a captive market with almost no transparency. So most people have no say, no ability to compare prices, they just get their service and someone pays.

It's a recipe for a failed system and it has cooked up nicely.

[AllyCat]

25. I'm a nurse for a non-profit. We got no raise. Again.

Physicians and admin got raises and bonuses, while they vilified the nurses in the paper for making too much money. Facility had it's most profitable year EVER. not all hc professionals are bilking the system. I don't begrudge the docs making money as they provide a valuable service, but the bonuses were unprecedented and sizable. More than any nurse makes in a year.

[sendero]

26. Yes.

....I apologize for forgetting nurses. they dont' get paid either, and in many situations they are doing most of the work.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

55. Are you organized ?

Organized meaning -in a union? If not, I suggest considering it.

[AllyCat]

87. Yes, but Walker has weakened us considerably.

[southerncrone]

27. #1 is HCA. Our healthcare skyrocketed when we went from

non-profit hospitals to FOR-profit hospitals. Everything else fell in behind that model. It is a sick idea to profit from others' misfortune.
Let's not forget that this is a bastion from which many a despicable politician emerged.
Read this, it's sure to make you sick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_Corporation_of_America

How DO they sleep at night?

[Uncle Joe]

28. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Playinghardball.

[TorchTheWitch]

30. chump change compared to the shareholder profits

Who are not us little people.

[JEB]

32. There is your friggin death panel.

[kenny blankenship]

34. That is but a symptom, an EXEMPLARY symptom, yet nevertheless ONLY a symptom

The real reason healthcare is too expensive, and stays that way despite the ACA, is

THE EXISTENCE OF A PROFIT TAKING MIDDLE MAN.

Obscene executive pay for this profit motivated middle man exemplifies the obscenity of a BUSINESS whose abiding and overriding interest is, as always, to prevent you from accessing the health care system; but the CEO's obscene salary isn't why the overall system is obscene. Health care is BAD in our country (with regard to outcomes and our shabby 3rd tier life expectancy) and health care is too fucking expensive (with regard to how much fucking money they extract every month) because your access is mediated by a profit motivated corporation. Not simply a business but a corporation, the ownership of which is diffused and traded among owners with no responsibility to you the consumer. They the shareholders have an interest in you DYING before you cost them any money, or at least before your treatment rises to significant sums. And therefore the management has an interest in your early death too, because they are expected to generate PROFITS - and that interest is exactly the same whether the CEO "earns" 20 million a year, or takes a "Steve Jobs" salary of one dollar a year. The insurance corporations of the United States are a CARTEL of just FIVE companies, with an apparently infinite number of subsidiaries, who are shielded from any antitrust laws. The members of the cartel are publicly traded for-profit entities and as such they MUST earn more every year than the last, or even they could face stock market extinction (even they, as vast as they are) First a share price contraction, leading then to a take over. Against their colossal size, against the remorseless logic of their capitalist structure and their inexorable, inexhaustible need to squeeze more and more and more profit from your body, you stand no chance. Absolutely NONE.

[Recursion]

35. No, that's chump change

Executive compensation is irritating and immoral, but is not enough to be the problem from a numbers standpoint.

[TBF]

46. Why such strong defense of CEO salaries from you?

Several times you've commented in this thread & every single time defending these maggots who make so much off others' labor. Why?

[Recursion]

49. Because it's a distraction

Fixing it woudn't fix the underlying problem. It's the left's version of what welfare fraud is on the right: it gets people angry but fixing it wouldn't make things better.

[TBF]

50. Wrong. Capitalism IS the underlying problem.

It is the elephant in the room that no one is willing to talk about because it scares the crap out of them. It is going to take actual work to get rid of capitalism. But it is the only solution to the extreme income inequality we see worldwide.

[Recursion]

59. Management salaries are not capitalism. Soviet managers made a ton too

That's two separate issues.

It is going to take actual work to get rid of capitalism.

Count me out; I'm here to save capitalism from its excesses, not get rid of it.

[TBF]

60. I know you are -

we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. No doubt about that.

[DissidentVoice]

70. But IS "capitalism" salvageable?

That is the question.

Really, what resemblance does modern American "capitalism" have to the "classical" ideal of "capitalism;" i.e., Adam Smith?

Even the "capitalist" Tories in the UK do not try to dismantle their NHS. Margaret Thatcher did a lot of damage, but she did not destroy it, or completely blockade it as the Republicans in this country do.

The Progressive Conservatives (a bit of an oxymoron) in Canada or the Liberal/Nationals in Australia have not done that either, despite their professions of "capitalism."

What exists in America, as championed by Republicans and (it must be said) aided/abetted by Third Way Democrats, is plutocracy - a society dominated and ruled by the wealthiest, at the expense of everyone else. What the Republicans are pushing even harder for is a corporate republic, where all formerly-government services have been privatised and made into for-profit corporations. Look at private prisons. A lot of things in the military that used to be handled by troops have been contracted out, like food services. Some Air National Guard installations have private security on their gates, except for during drill weekends. I know. I have seen them. That goes along with the vaunted philosophy of "trimming government."

"Capitalism" is not salvageable because what exists in America is plutocracy, and plutocracy is responsible for most of our societal problems - lambasting of social welfare programmes, demonising the poor and, of course, the fact that we are the only industrialised nation in the Western world to not have universal health care. Note I did not say "civilised;" because I do not believe the United States as it currently stands to be a civilised nation.

A good example of what I am pointing at is the Weyland-Yutani conglomerate in the Alien movies - corporation as government, employer, law enforcement and military. Get on the outs with "The Company," as the character of Ellen Ripley did, and you are persona non grata.

If we are not there already, we are certainly very, very close.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to "save" something so inherently evil.

[Enthusiast]

39. K&R

U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man taking a cut of "FREE MONEY".

Western European health care systems are far cheaper than the U.S. model. And they are more effective.

The reason for this is profit. In the U.S. everyone along the line takes a profit cut. The health care service providers have to make a profit just as the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies.

This costs all of us. For one thing care is rationed to save profits for the insurance industry. And care is denied by the insurance industry.

This is why we desperately needed a strong public option in the ACA health care legislation. We needed a public option that could evolve into a system that did not include a parasitic insurance industry or for-profit health care services providers.

Before this can happen we have to remove money from the legislative process. Well, you know what we are up against.

[questionseverything]

76. somethings are just too important

to be left up to capitalism

and it is not true capitalism anyway since the care of the highest cost group(the elderly) is already shifted to "we the people" thru medicaid and medicare

[Enthusiast]

79. This is true.

And it's never pointed out on the corporate media. It amounts to a huge subsidy for the insurance industry.

[questionseverything]

80. medicare runs at 3.5% admin costs

aca capped at 20% admin and profit

that guarantees we pay 17% more for healthcare

[Enthusiast]

81. I know it.

Pathetic. This is what happens when a country has corporate rule.

[livingwagenow]

40. Recced. Medicare4All NOW! Single payer will set the American economy free. nt

[The Wizard]

42. Healthcare for profit is immoral

The tea party is immoral, and they all belong in the public square in stocks so we can smear their faces with rotten vegetables.

[reddread]

43. non sequitor or oxymoronic?

pharmaceutical companies have an interest in dispensing overpriced drugs to sick people.
Insurance companies have an interest in denying services.
Remove them from the equation, and you might get healthy people
with fewer side effects resulting in death and financial ruin.

[no_hypocrisy]

53. In 1975 when patients went to visit my father, who specialized in internal medicine

and cardiology, a 15 minute office visit cost only $25. No insurance. And my father NEVER limited the time to 15 minutes. It would be double that. Yeah, patients would grouse in the waiting room about literally waiting for 30+ minutes for their scheduled appointment, but the trade-off would be a lot of face time with their doctor.

[Cicada]

54. These costs are one tenth of one percent of revenues

Their wages are a rip off but they have virtually nothing to do with health costs. The head of HCA makes one tenth of one percent of his firm's revenues. We need to control costs - and 99.9% of those costs lie elsewhere.

[lonestarnot]

62. Yeah that about covers it.

K & R!

[JBoy]

67. Meanwhile, with single payer in Canada

BC's Deputy Minister of Health, the guy who runs the whole department, earns $254,000 in salary and benefits.

[The Magistrate]

69. Wages Are Too Low, Sir: That Is The Real Reason

Not that these blood-ticks you name are not a problem, mind, and certainly there would be great social benefit to stripping them of everything in excess of their underwear and turning them loose in the urban wild, but their salaries are not the real problem, except in that they reflect the tremendous disparity between executive and shareholder remuneration, and the pay received by people who perform actual labor in this country....

"Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so. The first one is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and well paid."

[Rainforestgoddess]

71. maybe also this

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

72. Pornography!!!

As the Supreme Court Justice once quipped, "I know it when I see it." This is it.

[Divine Discontent]

73. amen!

Get it here -> http://www.zazzle.com/youre_not_in_the_1_why_vote_like_you_are_bumpe_bumper_sticker-128479630785214922?rf=238107662556833486

[colsohlibgal]

74. Not Even A Dirty Little Secret

But it gets precious little play on MSM. So called democrat Max Baucus made sure it got no play in his "Obamacare" committee, the one where he had single payer advocates, who not surprisingly had no place at the table, led away to jail in chains for daring to try to have their voices heard. Many of them were doctors and nurses.

This couldn't be simpler to grasp - these execs play no part in the delivery of health care, they are simply siphoning 100s of millions, billions, off the top. Only in America, among industrialized nations. This is obscene, it's pure greed.

But there's more. We pay way more for many critical drugs because unlike our neighbor Canada we can't negotiate lower rates for massive bulk purchases.

This is all in the last 30-40 years, Before that health companies were not much more than bookkeepers as long as things were on the up and up. The head of the companies made only a good upper middle class living. Beginning with Nixon this all began to change for the worse.

It seems likely the real remedies will happen at the state level over time, places like California, as Bill Maher said in his closing a week ago.

I wish more people saw what the problem really is.

[Thinkingabout]

77. There is lots of money placed on lobbying which is passed on to the insured and not counting

Advertising. In Canada there is only a,few in a hospital who handles claims compared to hundreds in the US. Health care is so high in the US international health insurance companies have issued notices to their insured in case of an emergency while in the US to have the problem handled but if something is able to wait until they are away from the US and have it scheduled in another country than the US. If our health care providers was receiving the money paid on insurance and through programs like Medicare and Medicaid it would be going to those who spends time in educating themselves I would not complain so much.

[hue]

83. And this doesn't include their benefits...

[ConcernedCanuk]

85. Cuz y'all ain't in Canada? . . . .

.
.
.

On the serious side though,

why do not voters/legislators etc. take a good look at how us poor Canucks manage to have free universal healthcare for all?

I know some dispute the "free" word - but consider this - even the homeless get the same coverage as a person with good wages.

Yes, those with wages/money can pay up to increase coverage from a ward room to private and so on, but have a heart attack? -

Ambulance, surgery, medications etc. are all covered.

We pay a portion of our paychecks, every one, to our Health Care System. This goes into a fund for our care - what we pay in has nothing to do with our coverage - the "account" is for everyone.

So, if you been poor all you life, never paid a dime - you are covered for health care like everyone else.

I sorta doubt the USA will catch on that this may be a good idea within my lifetime.

Sad that.

CC

[steve2470]

86. you have a good model but of course the insane RW in our country screams SOCIALISM

It seems the bogey man of socialism is gradually losing its power over people, but not yet. We have deeply entrenched interests who will make less money or go out of business (health insurance companies). Our PPACA is but a stepping-stone to Medicare for all, which would be similar to your system.