I called bullshit on a Republican at work today.

[Curmudgeoness]

We were discussing ACA, and he still wants it repealed. He said "everyone hates it". I told him that this is not what I have been hearing.

Thanks to DU and all the information I have gotten here, I was able to debunk one of his lies. He told me that he "knows a woman who is 62 and has pre-existing conditions" (although I have a feeling this was not someone he knows but was in some email) who checked on the website for how much it would cost her to have insurance. It showed her a price of $650 a month, and that was more than she could afford, so she did not get it. She then got an email saying that she owes $4,000 because she did not buy the insurance.

I called bullshit on several different issues. First, there is no way that she would owe $4,000 if she did not get insurance, since the penalty is $95 or 1% of her income. Well, unless her income is $400,000, and that means that there is no way that she could not afford $650 a month. Also, since the requirement to have insurance does not start until 2014, she would have no penalty for not buying the insurance now....and I don't even know that you can buy the insurance until January, but I was unsure of that since I have not seen the website. So I let that part go.

So this is now the game plan for the Repubs---more lies, and ridiculous lies at that. And of course, their audience is not getting the actual details. Well, this coworker got the actual details, in spades. I have forwarded several articles as well as the official website to him as proof that he was being bamboozled and made to look like a fool.

Thanks DU! I am well informed because of you.

[NightWatcher]

1. the discussions here sharpen our debating skills

and don't you dare bring it unless you've got the facts straight (link?).

Every once in a while they feed us a troll to chew on and play with til it's dead, like a hapless mouse in the hands of a barn cat.

[Curmudgeoness]

12. Trolls sharpen our debating skills as well,

kinda like a fence post sharpens a cat's claws.

I still have problems with debating skills, but I do know facts, and that trumps talking over the other person.

[hopemountain]

59. all trolls do for me is sharpen my

troll-dar.
trolls ....

but, there are some very informed du posters who put forth a wealth of good info and links. to them, i am indebted

[JEB]

2. Lying is pretty much the only game plan they have.

[kydo]

3. DU is really good at this ...you know, things like truth facts

pretty awesome. I love this place and highly recommend it often.

[Warpy]

6. And if anybody cites outdated information ::twitch::

people here can be counted upon to let you know about it.

That's a good thing if they can do so without acting like right wingers quoting Limbag. Oh, hell, it's a good thing if they can't, if you want current information.

[kydo]

7. thats the best part

[babylonsister]

8. Ha!

[BKH70041]

4. .

[Warpy]

5. People signing up today won't be covered until

12:01 AM on January 1, 2014, just in time for all those drunken New Year's Eve accidents. You got that right.

You're also right that this has got to be one of those Koch funded Astroturf emails. I've heard the same numbers from several wingnuts online.

Tell your coworker that at some point, he's going to have to realize that people are heavily invested in lying to him and he'd better figure out who they are before he's really taken for a ride.

[Curmudgeoness]

9. You would think that he would have figured that out by now.

He is one of the owners, and I am the token liberal. We often have "discussions", and I have shown him so many times that he is spewing lies......I don't know when he will figure out who knows what they are talking about. He still seems to trust the emails first.

How do people that stupid become the 1%ers??????

[Warpy]

21. Most of those emails are from friends he trusts

which is what the Astroturf people hope will happen. He needs to know they're all generated at some right wing think tank or other and sent to a mailing list they know will simply forward them. Such forwarded emails sometimes are not marked as being forwarded, muddying the waters still farther.

He's not stupid, he just trusts his friends not to be buttholes who automatically forward any political email to him.

His trust is sadly misplaced. It's also going to bite him in the ass. Hard.

[Curmudgeoness]

23. I certainly will bite him in the ass when I see him tomorrow.

[nikto]

54. Please bite HARD...

Just don't swallow.

[Curmudgeoness]

57. I bit hard. He bit back with ignorance that was unbelievable.

And (phew), I didn't swallow.

He made it clear that he was not at all embarrassed.....but I bet he was and that was the reason for his outburst. He was out of control.

[bahrbearian]

11. You can enroll till March, $150 for me and wife 60 and 61 $30,000 income,

[Curmudgeoness]

14. Awesome. This must make you feel so relieved. nt

[bahrbearian]

18. I'm very happy, uninsured for 4 yrs with pre-existing, Trying to make it till SS

I put in $30.000 for this year , next year it might be Zip

[vankuria]

13. The folks that put out these lies

know how stupid and gullible their followers are. Your co-worker talks about a lady got an "e-mail" saying she owes $4000, for not signing up for an insurance plan and that doesn't raise any red flags for him???

[Curmudgeoness]

16. Actually, he did not admit it was in an email.

He told me he "knew a woman". I just suspect it was info in an email. It could well be someone who told him this....but that still makes her a liar.

Hell, I have red flags go up from things that I read here on DU....I always check before I repeat it. The wingnuts are so excited about getting info against Obama that they don't question it. Or so it seems.

[freshwest]

20. BTW, the date to sign up was extended to March of 2014.

And my teabag sister, who had gone Beck-shit crazy last year, was converted by Obamacare this month. She was impossible to talk to for over a year. Now she is on the road to sanity again. I've never heard her so happy and positive. She'd nearly been killed and suffered terribly over the years by private insurers and their 'death panels.'

[Curmudgeoness]

22. I guess that the success of Obamacare

is the reason that the right wing is willing to do anything and everything to try to stop it. I get the feeling that if they were to succeed in stopping it now, they would have an even bigger problem.

I am glad that your sister is coming around. I hear these stories of teabaggers who are finding that Obamacare is not as bad as they had been told.

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. Ask him ...

has he seen the email that the woman received? If he hasn't, he should ask her to see it ... since she was so free in sharing her experience, she wouldn't possibly have a problem showing him the proof ... right?

Then, ask him what her refusal/inability to provide the proof tells him about the veracity of (oh ... you probably shouldn't use that word ... okay ... about how much B.S. is) her claim.

We have to call out the liars AND make the innocent, believing suckers question.

[Curmudgeoness]

40. I intend to poke him more today.

If it were me in his position, I would be embarrassed that I was taken for a fool, and that I believed what I was told. I want him to feel that embarrassment, because by now, he should have checked for the truth---since I sent him links.

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. Nope ...

IMHO, embarassment will merely galvanize him into his position ... Say, with all sincerity, "You know, there may be something to that woman's story; but with all the chain-emails going around, I think I'd want to see the email she told you about before accepting her story as fact. Besides, why would she receive an email telling her 'she owed' when she still has a couple of months to sign up? That would be like stopping at a car dealership, test driving a car, and having them send you a bill. Wouldn't it?"

[Curmudgeoness]

51. Nope.....

I refuse to utter anything that comes close to "you may be right" on this issue.

He may become more galvanized, or not. But someone who will not see the truth when it is in his face will never see the truth. I have nothing to lose.

[nikto]

69. Your approach...

1SBM,

Your approach shows
restraint, maturity, compassion, and
a desire to retain a humane sense of dignity for the other side.





















Totally unacceptable!!!!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

74. I'm sorry ...

here's a reason the warrior class recognizes the concept of allowing your opponent to save face. I've found that making someone ackowledge their stupid directly, makes an enemy for life.

[nikto]

75. Mister...

You're a better man than I.


And...
Ofcourse, you're right.



But America cannot survive many more Conservative victories, IMO.

[1StrongBlackMan]

79. Agreed ...

but/and publicly making people feel stupid doesn't change minds or get votes.

[awoke_in_2003]

53. They wear stupid with pride. nt

[Curmudgeoness]

56. And he wore that stupid with pride in spades.

Not only did he say that he was not embarrassed, he said that it didn't matter if there wasn't a fact in the whole story, Obamacare sucks and is destroying the country, so the story could be true.

Really? It "could be true"? Even if it isn't.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. That's not all. They know their followers are rabid racists who will NEVER believe Obama,...

...and by extension Democrats would ever do ANYTHING that would be good for them or the country.

You could claim Obama is requiring all white families in the suburbs to relocate to the inner cities and turn over their daughters for impregnating by well hung black rappers as part of the master plan to eliminate the white race and a chunk of them would believe it.

Especially when their daughters express interest.

[nikto]

77. And it is so unfair that ObamaCare...

Will force millions of men to have hysterectomies, while making their wives submit
to penile enlargement.

This is fascism of the highest order!!

And it pollutes our precious bodily fluids, too.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

78. When we talk "Change" they go "Strange".

[Grateful for Hope]

15. DU is the best source of info on the internets, IMO

I think you did good!

K&R

[mcar]

17. This is the latest Pants on Fire lie at Politifact

Going viral via email and on right wing sites. Only the version they got it was a man with diabetes.

Making the rounds. They're not even trying anymore. Good on you for calling him on it.

[Curmudgeoness]

19. Ah, I see that on Politifact.

I knew damned well that he did not know this woman.

I intent to hand him his ass tomorrow for lying about that part too. And I will also forward a link to that Politifact article. Thanks.

God, I love this place!

[Tx4obama]

24. Below are TWO links to where it has been debunked

Politifact here: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/04/facebook-posts/closer-look-facebook-post-mans-struggle-obamacare-/

Snopes, here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/penalty.asp

[Curmudgeoness]

25. Rated pants on fire.

Is that the highest level of lie according to Politifacts?

Thanks for the links.

[RoccoRyg]

26. I was hanging out with some friends...

Most of whom were conservatives, but I don't discriminate. One of them told me that Obamacare was turning sick people away because the government couldn't afford them and letting them die. I knew it was BS, because the ACA has high-risk pools, the insurance companies were the ones doing that, the act hadn't started yet and there are NO DEATH PANELS!!!

[Curmudgeoness]

27. More pants on fire liars feeding these friends information.

I get exhausted trying to keep up with the fabrications. I hope that you disputed this in front of all of them. This is what we have to do, every single time.

It will get worse before it gets better. They are getting desperate.

[calimary]

28. Welcome to DU, RoccoRyg!

Glad you're here! I hope you said something to disabuse that individual of the lies being embraced and shared. We're up against a machine that will stop at nothing.

[RoccoRyg]

29. I didn't...

I tried to convince the host of the party on how the ACA was good at an earlier get-together. I explained how the emergency room care was raising the costs of hospitals because they had to transfer the costs to insurance companies and patients. I explained how it stopped insurers from discriminating against pre-existing conditions. I tried everything, but it went in one ear and out the other. She just complained about how it wasn't fair" that poor people will get subsidies and tax breaks to get insurance. It's not fair! It's not fair! she kept saying.

She also told me that doctors will leave the country because they won't get paid millions anymore. I told her every other first-world country has some form of universal healthcare, meaning they would have nowhere to go, and she just shook her head and restated the point. Then she told me socialism doesn't work and things like Obamacare are what made Rome fall. I'm not making this up.

We're still friends, but I don't bother trying to change her mind. Only she can see the light by herself, and I hope she does.

[calimary]

38. Well, thank you for trying, anyway! I know, some people just will NOT be awakened. They'd rather

stay on their diet of misinformation and cling to their beloved Pox Noise and hate radio. Even when you present the truth! HOWEVER, if you speak out like that, at some of these things, you just might find a kindred spirit - and may have given validation to someone who might have felt suffocated and trampled on by the elephant herd. My mom's old boyfriend used to send me these nauseating wrong-wing wacko emails - with long chains of forwarded email addresses. Usually I just hit delete. However, I got fed up one day and, while I didn't understand what "Reply All" was, I did go back through the long chain of email and copied and pasted every list of emails in every "send." And I sent a detailed rebuttal around to all these "points" that were made. I knew I'd probably piss some of 'em off.

This was during I think the first dubya years. I got this one fiery retort that I will never forget: "WHERE WERE YOU 9/11???" And it proceeded to impugn my patriotism up one side of the room and down the other. I was thoroughly amused by the lack of preposition in that sentence. "Where were you 9/11?" Um - did you mean "where were you ON 9/11?" Or "where were you WITH 9/11?" Or "where were you IN 9/11?" "...WITH 9/11?" "OVER 9/11?" And I proceeded to point out the grammatical error and then to answer - something to the effect of -

"Let's see - where was I (I assume you mean) on 9/11? Well, it was morning out here in L.A. We in the neighborhood carpool had just all dropped our kids off at their elementary school and had returned to catch up on the horrific news we'd seen waking up, we'd just received calls from the school saying they were closing that day and please come and pick up your kids. I had just taken that call. My cross-the-street neighbor, whose son was one class ahead of my daughter's, was literally in hysterics, because she'd taken one of those flights many times in her job and - 'could have been on THAT one!!!!' So I was trying to calm her down, volunteered to drive up to school to pick them all up because she was in no condition to drive. I took her with me to pick them up, we brought 'em home, tried to explain a little bit of it because they were ALL alarmed, even as young as they were. And I think I helped calm her down a little. She was WAY upset. Later we put a fundraising drive together for my son's Cub Scout den, selling flag pins for $5 each and sending the money to the Red Cross for the families of the 9/11 victims. And where were YOU 9/11?"

Never heard back from him after that, but a woman emailed me, said she hated being on these lists and receiving these stupid emails because she didn't agree with one of them, but figured she was outnumbered so she didn't want to say anything, but thanked me profusely for saying what I did, and making her feel as though she wasn't alone. It reassured her to discover that there were others who saw things the way she did.

So you never know. Sometimes it's pretty discouraging. Sure felt like we were swimming against some pretty powerful currents back then. And yeah, you could very much feel alone and isolated by this onslaught of strictly one-sided (and rather twisted because it wasn't fact-based) opinion. But sometimes you bolster others and they don't feel alone anymore. And I was able to bat down much of the swill in those emails because I'd been here for awhile, and read a lot from people's posts and links here on DU, and I became far more educated on the reality of things.

[annabanana]

48. There is always the "third party" factor when you

have these discussions with people who will never change their minds. Someone who overheard the discussion might be persuaded by facts and logic.

[noiretextatique]

52. the GOP is the only "death panel"

since they are fighting to keep people from getting healthcare.

[IrishAyes]

30. Good on you, Curmudgeoness

It's even worse when people tell harmful lies on purpose about critical matters. I'm going to give the big pharma company a few more days to get back to me about their lying receptionist before revealing details. Corporations are tough for anyone to beat in court, but they're vulnerable to potential bad publicity, so they can be more easily persuaded at this stage. The email I wrote was factual and polite, but adamant that the lies that person is telling as the first contact of their company must be stopped. I shudder to think of the harm she's caused.

[Curmudgeoness]

31. The internet can be a great tool.

It levels the playing field for us little people. We have access to so much information and we can have a voice.

[ErikJ]

33. Politifact says its "Pants-on-Fire" email chain

Says a man opted out of Obamacare after the marketplace launched on Oct. 1, 2013, and was informed he owed a $4,000 fine.
Facebook posts on Tuesday, October 1st, 2013 in viral posts on the Internet

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/04/facebook-posts/closer-look-facebook-post-mans-struggle-obamacare-/

[Shrike47]

34. I suggest you confront the liar tomorrow about the story and get him to admit it's an Internet story

You can point out the Politifact finding to him.

[VPStoltz]

35. WHY even bother...?

As they say, "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think."
Same the REEPERS...
This is where I could get VERY, VERY non-PC so it is best I quit.

[Curmudgeoness]

44. I bother because it is the right thing to do.

If I do shame a right winger on an issue that is blatantly false, I figure that there is a half a chance that they will drop that particular lie. And if they don't, there are other people who may hear the truth. Besides, I am not harmed by sharpening my skills.

[IkeRepublican]

36. Today's Republicans are clones of Simone from Ferris Bueller

They always "know this guy" who told him this or that and it's nothing more than the regurgitation from some chain email or they simply make it up in their own mind.

"My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious." Quote Source: IMDB

All you have to do is ask who "this guy" is and they crumble like the Pittsburgh Steelers. They either are on the cusp of totally losing their s*** or they'll say, "I don't know exactly - THE POINT IS bla-bla-bla."

I personally like it when they lose their s***. Just sit there and go, "Whoa. Okay." Anybody asks later on, which someone most certainly will, you simply say, "He started going on and on about Obamacare and next thing I know, he almost started crying."

Boom. Word will get around to the top of the company that he's a loose cannon. Works every time.

[Curmudgeoness]

42. How true----"but the point is....."

I hear that all the time.

And it won't take long for word to get to the top of the company.....this guy's name is on the door. He is one of the owners. You see, I am the only sane person in this whole workplace. (No, I am lying. But the few others will not open their mouth. Can't blame them, I should probably be as smart as they are.)

Welcome to DU.

[IkeRepublican]

62. Thank you!

Excellent forum here and some good people. I've read it off and on for years, but finally decided to join and rant.

Ah, so this oatmeal-head is one of the owners of the company. Lovely. Yeah, in that case it may be prudent (at this juncture, heh) to not say much. People who fall for that garbage combined with that much company pull are usually the kind to fabricate false claims (31 Flavors) and pull some surprise hijinks to cause you difficulty on the job. As we all know, wingnuts have an insatiable dopamine addiction and nothing quenches it better than cluttering up a perceived rival.

Luckily, thus far, my supes seem to be moderate conservatives and liberals. People who like to create drama by using any type of fodder are almost always found out very quickly because of their obvious tendency to work less and eff-off more. They usually don't last long once it gets out they're gumming up the works.

[Curmudgeoness]

66. No one ever accused me of being prudent.

But my next post might be "I just got fired". Although this guy knew me before I started working here, since we worked together at another firm before he went out on his own....and we had heated discussions back then too. But he did blow a gasket today when I asked him if he was embarrassed for falling for this.

But I have made my point, and I have no doubt that he will not be repeating this story again. And that was my intention.

[tortie]

37. I really do know a woman who is 62 with preexisting conditions.

She is my sister in law. She has been paying $960 a month for an individual health insurance policy since she stopped working about 2 years ago. She signed up for insurance through the exchange here in WA state, and with tax credits, her monthly premium will be about $450 a month for basically the same level of coverage.

[Curmudgeoness]

50. And THAT is the story that I am hearing

over and over again. I think it is wonderful for those people who have pre-existing conditions.

Welcome to DU, tortie.

[DebJ]

39. Yes that story was circulating on Facebook.

I debunked it. But the 4th cousin of mine who keeps posting this stuff, and I keep posting links and facts,
just keeps saying the same crap over and over.
Today was fun though....she posted a link herself that disproved her point and then didn't even read it,
apparently.
Frankly, I don't know why she hasn't unfriended me. I'm always factual, not nasty, but I really do end up
debunking almost everything she posts.
Yes, she is clearly very racist.

[Curmudgeoness]

41. I always say that debunking these lies

is not really aimed at the wingnut, if that nut case is too far gone. But it is about getting the truth out to all the other people who are reading the posts. If I were so far out there in loonie land, I would unfriend you.

[Enthusiast]

43. K&R...Well done......nt

[Eric J in MN]

45. Politifact went though the BS in that rightwing story

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/04/facebook-posts/closer-look-facebook-post-mans-struggle-obamacare-/

"My fine would be $4,037."

This number is way out of line. Under the law, the penalty fee in 2014 is 1 percent of your yearly income or $95 per person for the year, whichever is higher. The fee increases every year. In 2016 it is 2.5 percent of income or $695 per person, whichever is higher.

If we are to take this Facebook user’s claims at face value -- that his "income base was 45K-55K annually"-- and if he has no dependents, he would not have to pay any more than $550, by 2015. To pay a penalty of $4,037 in 2014, you would need to be making making more than $403,700 a year.

[MindPilot]

47. Odd. A republican at work told me that exact same story yesterday.

I mean seriously, what are the chances? I'm I right?

His friend checked on coverage in July and it was forty dollars, but she didn't have the cash at the time. When she checked again on October 1st, thanks to OBAMACARE, the price was now $450.

[Curmudgeoness]

49. I guess I am just ignorant of right wing emails

because I didn't realize this was already making the rounds. But it obviously was since it is already being debunked on fact checking sites. They didn't let the grass grow under their feet.

But I have seen enough of these emails to recognize the pattern. I had a very strong suspicion that it was another of their feeble attempts to discredit ACA.

[DrewFlorida]

55. Good job debunking the republican bull shit lies!

The more people he tells that story to without being corrected the more he will actually begin to believe it himself. Correcting the republican misinformation machine is the single most important job for the making sure Americans know the truth of any issue.
Great job for doing your part!

[Curmudgeoness]

58. Yup, he will not be repeating that story again.

He didn't care that it didn't have a single fact in the story, since Obamacare is so so bad so that makes it ok to lie.

But I believe that he will refrain from using this story again. Not that it will stop him from hating Obama and Obamacare, but that is one lie he will not repeat.

[pasto76]

61. thanks you just helped me nail some FB BS, shockingly almost the same scenario

[Curmudgeoness]

63. Not shocking at all.

This "personal story" came from a chain email. When pressed about the details, I was told that it was another person who "knew" this woman. Sure. It was another person who got that email.

Glad this helped you debunk the insanity.

[DeSwiss]

64. But for Republicans.....

...the truth is so haaaaarrrrrdddd.

- K&R

[TxDemChem]

65. As I see others have posted that they too have seen this info elsewhere,

I won't copy and paste the same. I saw a diary on Daily Kos last week saying the same thing. Been waiting for any coworker to come at me with that bullshit.

Caught my boss looking at one of those stupid tea party forwarded emails on Monday. She should really rearrange her office like I did.

[Curmudgeoness]

67. LOL....she should rearrange her office!

At least you know the truth about this story....and I can't find one single fact in the story. Not even a part of a fact. So it is just so easy to knock it out of the park.

[TxDemChem]

68. It's all BS. They may change the gender,

But the age and all other numbers are consistent. It's sad really.

[B Calm]

70. Bookmarked K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. I had one blame the death benefit non payment on Democrats

lets just put it this way, he was not happy at the end of it.

Nothing more to share.

[Curmudgeoness]

72. WTF are their brains made of? What are they thinking?

I swear, they make me crazy.

But I am told that I make them crazy, so we are even.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. They repeat the leaders of the GOP like robots

and I do not mean Reince Preibus.

[zbdent]

76. He knows a Republican congresscritter?

I hear those "fiscal conservatives" who really know how to "balance a budget" are living from paycheck to paycheck ...

[penultimate]

80. Heh, but will that coworker learn anything from your discussion or revert back to the

typical misinformation spewing when they get around their own kind? I've been noticing they never seem to learn even if they cannot defend their misinformed points.

[Curmudgeoness]

82. I am sure that he is an ass around his own kind,

but I have watched (over the course of about 12 years) him go from rabid Republican to "they are all useless". He also has gone from listening to Rush every day to refusing to listen to him. Not much of a change, but it is a little step in the right direction. If it were not for all the noise from Fox and these emails, I might have hope.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

81. Terrific!