ahem...Let's Not Complain About The Size Of The Rout

[kpete]

Don't Complain About the Size of the Rout
by BooMan
Mon Oct 14th, 2013 at 11:47:54 PM EST

.......................The victory could have been bigger.

The deal itself, as it has been outlined, is not too bad. It doesn't officially remove the Republicans' ability to reprise another debt ceiling crisis, nor does it preclude them from causing another government shutdown. But the Democrats will be only too happy to go through this process again next year, closer to the midterm elections. If the Republicans haven't learned their lesson, the electoral consequences will be quite rewarding for the Democrats.

The concessions under discussion are half imaginary (income verification for ObamaCare subsidies) and half a favor to labor unions (a delay in employer reinsurance requirements). Neither will incentivize the Republicans to make a repeat performance of their auto-da-fé.

The end result of this shutdown will be a victory nearly as decisive as the one the Russians achieved at Stalingrad. I can imagine a bigger win, but I have no real complaints.

I think, with this, the fever that started with 2010 midterm election results will finally be broken. I look forward to the return of some small degree of normalcy.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2013/10/14/234754/95

[dkf]

1. The "deal" doesn't do much of anything except postpone.

[Uncle Joe]

4. On the positive side it does become more difficult for the Republicans to play the same

stupid ass games again because it will be closer to the 2014 elections and they will get their ass handed to them.

Having said that I believe the Obama Administration should challenge the Constitutionality of the debt ceiling.

[malaise]

22. Ding ding we have a winner

[Uncle Joe]

35. ...

Peace to you, malaise,

[lonestarnot]

23. A rather expensive ass hand off, who's going to be responsible for that debt?

[Uncle Joe]

36. The United States will still be responsible for its' debt but the debt ceiling has become nothing

but a political football, it's a game.

The United States and Denmark are the only two Constitutional Nations that have a debt ceiling and other nations seem to be getting along just fine without one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_ceiling

The United States and Denmark are the only constitutional countries to have legislative restrictions on the incurring of public debt. The Danish debt ceiling is, however, mainly a formality and follows the budgeting and expenditure process and provides ample latitude for unforeseen deficits. It has never created the periodic crises as has the American.[2]

(snip)

A vote to increase the debt ceiling is usually seen as a formality[by whom?], needed to continue spending that has already been approved previously by Congress and the President. Earlier reports to Congress from experts have repeatedly said that the debt limit is an ineffective means to restrain the growth of debt.[6] James Surowiecki argues that the debt ceiling originally served a useful purpose. When introduced, the President had stronger authority to borrow and spend as he pleased; however, after 1974, Congress began passing comprehensive budget resolutions that specify exactly how much money the government can spend.[7] The apparent redundancy of the debt ceiling has led to suggestions that it should be abolished altogether.[25][26]

A January 2013 poll of a panel of highly regarded economists found that 84% agreed or strongly agreed that, since Congress already approves spending and taxation, "a separate debt ceiling that has to be increased periodically creates unneeded uncertainty and can potentially lead to worse fiscal outcomes." Only one member of the panel, Luigi Zingales, disagreed with the statement.[27]

The Obama Administration should challenge the debt ceiling as being in violation of the 14th Amendment especially as Republicans have threatened not to raise it, potentially causing the United States to default on its' debt and obligations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

[X_Digger]

5. Republicans can only be hurt further by another shutdown in an election year.

If we're in a strong negotiating position right now, we'll be in an even better position in January.

Would I like the question to be put to rest once and for all? Hell yes. Short of that, I'm happy with a deal that puts the republicans at a further disadvantage. Heck, I'd like to see the deal extended to, let's say, October 31, 2014. Go ahead, let them try shutting down the government just days before the election. It'd be a bloodbath.

[Dawgs]

25. This needs to end now. A lot more people than many think are being affected by shutdown/debt.

I would rather see a 6 month delay.

[X_Digger]

34. Agreed, it needs to end.

And I'd do handstands over an 8 month extension, putting it back on the table near to election time.

That can only help democrats.

[gopiscrap]

9. that's what I was thinking

[dkf]

10. I am so sick of this. I don't think any incumbent will benefit.

Yet I need to pay attention to know what I need to do.

It's almost like torture.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Work for a Democratic-Controlled Congress in 2014.

That's what you need to do.

[dkf]

15. I've already got Democratic controlled everything in my state.

And yes I do drop literature and canvass and all that sort of stuff.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Me too, pretty much. And man if it isn't exactly the way I want it.

If my rep was one of these teabag idiots, I'd be grinding my teeth into little nubs about now.

But I meant generally, nationally, all of us. If nothing else, this recent clusterfuck motivated me to donate to the DNC and the DCCC, which I admit I hadn't done in a while.

[dkf]

17. Our health care law is eons better than the ACA.

Irony is this is still where the Prez's mom had problems paying her medical bills.

It's funny he didn't learn we need Canadian single payer from that experience.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I suspect he did.

But knowing it and being able to accomplish it given the political facts on the ground, are two different things.

I think the ACA is an improvement; but like you, I think a SPHC would be ideal and make far more sense.

Still, it's a step in the right direction, and things like the medicaid expansion (except in the GOP states that have held it up) will further improve the lot of lower income uninsureds.

[Ikonoklast]

31. That's great.

For which party?

[gopiscrap]

21. God I hope the electorate can make the distinction between what

a Dem did and what a Repuke did during this shutdown and debt crisis

[Warren DeMontague]

13. They LOSE. They Get NOTHING.

Good DAY.

[Dawgs]

27. Not YOU, but WE, if they don't avoid this. n/t

[Adrahil]

29. I think you couldn't be more wrong....

.... it has caused TREMENDOUS damage to the Repug brand, and will very likely cause further internal strife.

From a practical point of view, we got as much as can be expected (and frankly, more than I expected... I expected our side to cave as usual). WE need to declare victory and prepare for the next fight.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I agree, my dear kpete. K&R n/t

[Hutzpa]

6. More like kicking the can down the road

aren't the president and the democrats tired of having this fight every six months?

The teahadist are not here to play ball, but to be disruptive that is what they've
shown us so far.

[phleshdef]

20. As far as budgets and debt ceilings go, there will ALWAYS be another can down the road to kick....

That stuff is always ongoing. Its not like Congress is gonna pass a CR or a debt ceiling increase with an expiration date of infinity.

[Dawgs]

26. Unfortunately the Republicans still hold the gun. The Democrats have no choice but to give in some.

If not, the economic catastrophe will be like nothing we've ever seen.

[jeff47]

33. A fight that devastates the Republicans in the polls every 6 months?

Not really a bad option for the Democrats.

It would be extremely nice if it weren't for the real-world damage these fights cause.

[Hutzpa]

38. Interesting

any thing that will leave the repubs in shambles for decades has my vote any day.

[hfojvt]

7. I worry about the size of the excrement sandwich

that is likely to come from "a commitment from all sides to launch comprehensive negotiations on the nation's finances."

And bi-partisan legislation which gets a majority of Republican votes is very likely to be something that I would strongly oppose. And when we have Democratic legislators and a President who would support something as odious as ATRA, then clearly "our" side cannot be counted on either to not screw the working class.

[HooptieWagon]

8. I'd rather the Dems have stepped on the teahadist's throats.

However, the deal isn't horrible, and hopefully avoids the country going through a default.
And it is true that kicking the can down the road, closer to elections, does make it more difficult for further repuke shenanigans. Oh, they'll squawk, but I doubt they'll try another shutdown.

[world wide wally]

11. But can we rub "unconditional surrender" in Boehner's face?

[merrily]

12. Sure, but only if it's orange.

[ffr]

19. I don't think Boehner will put anything up for a vote.

I really don't.

[pampango]

24. I suspect you are right. In which case the question is not "is the deal good for the country or

for Democrats, etc." to "what are the ramifications of a rejected deal for the country, for the political parties, etc.".

[Doctor_J]

28. Rout?

Reminds me of the celebration after the Bush tax cuts became the Obama tax cuts.

The end result of this shutdown will be a victory nearly as decisive as the one the Russians achieved at Stalingrad. I can imagine a bigger win, but I have no real complaints.

Wow.

[zipplewrath]

30. Gettysburg

I'm reminded of Lincoln during the Civil War. After several battles, Lincoln was disappointed that his generals didn't pursue Lee's army to finish it off. They took their victories and let Lee get away to fight another day. Gettysburg was only one of many examples where Lee was allowed to "escape" what could have been a rout.

I'm not going to claim to know enough "inside politics" to know if a rout is possible. But I also know that there is that opportunity here. The price of it might be higher than we really want to pay however.

[Xyzse]

32. I don't know...

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/15/234586988/liberal-columnist-doubts-parties-can-resolve-fundamental-differences

"Now the details of this deal will also matter to columnist Jonathan Chait of New York Magazine, he opposes adding any policy changes to a debt ceiling measure. Chaitt says it sets a bad precedent for future Congresses or for that matter future presidents."

Chait: If the president was more sociopathic or more able to feign sociopathy, then the President would get his way. This reordering of the political system would empower the more ruthless actors in the political system, which is the opposite of what we want.

I tend to agree that the debt ceiling should never be held hostage like this.
Those on the right that mention Obama voting against the debt ceiling before fail to realize that the Democrats DID NOT block the debt ceiling and let it go through. It was just was a means to mention how Bush has badly mismanaged spending.

Holding the whole world economy hostage this way is idiotic and damaging.

What they have done is set a bad precedent which would only get worse with time, if they allow the Republicans to get even some of what they want right now. I mean, now I am seeing Paul Ryan using this for morality issues such as abortion, which is in no way related to this issue. No, not allowed, too much is at stake this time.

[bucolic_frolic]

37. I'd be happier if the next debt/shutdown/ceiling debacle

were postponed until after the 2014 elections.

Any time there is a political problem, or a popularity problem, the GOP
reverts to standard corporate PR tactics - deny, delay, obfuscate, fingerpoint,
blame, declare victory. And they can spend and spin, manipulate and control -
all the while the MSM is helping them.

So it's a tossup. The public will forget this by 2014 if a long term deal is reached,
or the public will be reminded of it by another debt crisis or two before the elections,
and either way the spin machine will be humming.

[freshwest]

39. Isn't this just speculation? Or is this what the GOP's last offer was? I don't get it.