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TomCADem

(17,387 posts)
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:33 AM Oct 2013

HuffPo - "What Happened The Last Time A Major Western Country Defaulted" - Familiar?

As Republican debt ceiling deniers actively flirt with default, it is worthwhile to consider the consequences and similarities of the last default.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/14/what-happened-the-last-ti_n_4098078.html?utm_hp_ref=business

Reneging on its debt obligations would make the U.S. the first major Western government to default since Nazi Germany 80 years ago.

Germany unilaterally ceased payments on long-term borrowings on May 6, 1933, three months after Adolf Hitler was installed as Chancellor. The default helped cement Hitler’s power base following years of political instability as the Weimar Republic struggled with its crushing debts.

“These are generally catastrophic economic events,” said Professor Eugene N. White, an economics historian at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey. “There is no happy ending.”

The debt reparations piled onto Germany, which in 1913 was the world’s third-biggest economy, sparked the hyperinflation, borrowings and political deadlock that brought the Nazis to power, and the default. It shows how excessive debt has capricious results, such as the civil war and despotism that ravaged Florence after England’s Edward III refused to pay his obligations from the city-state’s banks in 1339, and the Revolution of 1789 that followed the French Crown’s defaults in 1770 and 1788.


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HuffPo - "What Happened The Last Time A Major Western Country Defaulted" - Familiar? (Original Post) TomCADem Oct 2013 OP
K&R Coyotl Oct 2013 #1
K&R indeed. Jackpine Radical Oct 2013 #2
The U.S. Has REPEATEDLY Defaulted - as recently as 1979 bananas Oct 2013 #24
My understanding is that the 1979 default was an accidental one. backscatter712 Oct 2013 #32
Hey they made it to the White House with Confederate flags on Sunday! GOP.. Cha Oct 2013 #30
Exactly gopiscrap Oct 2013 #3
K & R L0oniX Oct 2013 #4
The Teabaggers already call Obama & Hillary Hitler. Look out for their spin: Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2013 #5
Does that imply the Boehner & Co. are taking the country to war? ffr Oct 2013 #6
Awful fake headline NoOneMan Oct 2013 #7
I;m more concerned with what the Bloomberg article said. Raine1967 Oct 2013 #10
Why is it more chilling? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #15
See response #14. JDPriestly stated why better than I ever could have. Raine1967 Oct 2013 #20
Which has nothing to do with the default NoOneMan Oct 2013 #21
I don't think I am understanding what you are getting at. Raine1967 Oct 2013 #22
Sure NoOneMan Oct 2013 #23
Which is why it isn't really analogous to the current situation... Blanks Oct 2013 #31
Here is a simple explanation and brief history of the period: JDPriestly Oct 2013 #14
Im very aware of the lead up NoOneMan Oct 2013 #19
"We can definitely Sieg Heil to that. Smirk. Sneer." - RepubliBaggers (R) Berlum Oct 2013 #8
K&R. JDPriestly Oct 2013 #9
K & R SunSeeker Oct 2013 #11
R#25 & K n/t UTUSN Oct 2013 #12
Yeah, well, Germany had the Volkswagen to fall back on... KansDem Oct 2013 #13
This is what happens when you sit at the table with the "Master Race".... Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2013 #16
So the people who scream Obamacare is just like Nazi Germany SamYeager Oct 2013 #17
I've been saying this for sometime now kydo Oct 2013 #18
Our POLICE STATE has been writing itself around the US Constitution/Bill of Rights. NSA. Cameras blkmusclmachine Oct 2013 #25
And May 2, 1933 Nazis abolished Labor Unions ErikJ Oct 2013 #26
Of course, what is often ignored is that the Nazis were supported by Industrialist who thought... TomCADem Oct 2013 #28
Thanks for this link... it was a good response to a teabagger's facebook post. thecrow Oct 2013 #27
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #29

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
32. My understanding is that the 1979 default was an accidental one.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:00 AM
Oct 2013

And it still caused billions and billions of dollars of "Holy fuck!"

This was an accidental one, caused by a bureaucratic snafu combined with a less serious budget fight in Congress, resulting in a default that was immediately followed by a "Whoops, our bad, we'll fix it!"

It still caused a lot of people to freak out.

Think of what an intentional default would do. I'll bet the teabaggers holding up the show today were finally informed that their small planes may encounter *ahem* technical difficulties in mid-air if they brought the USA into debt default...

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,002 posts)
5. The Teabaggers already call Obama & Hillary Hitler. Look out for their spin:
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:13 AM
Oct 2013

They like to push the ridiculous line that they aren't causing the default but instead Obama is.

They will say something like "Obamacare was not Nazi enough. Zero is defaulting the US, like the last time a major nation did so when Hitler came to power in 1933."

It will stink as much as any of their odious propaganda about Muslim Kenyans.

ffr

(22,670 posts)
6. Does that imply the Boehner & Co. are taking the country to war?
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:16 AM
Oct 2013

Gonna be a lot of unhappy creditor nations when they cause the default.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
7. Awful fake headline
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:17 AM
Oct 2013

I actually read the whole damn thing because I wanted to know what happened economically when Germany defaulted in 1933, and it really didn't say. This is probably because its not really about that; this is a fake headline to make kneejerk readers associate Nazism with defaults. The real headline on Bloomberg is: "U.S. May Join Germany of 1933 in Pantheon of Defaults"

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
10. I;m more concerned with what the Bloomberg article said.
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:39 AM
Oct 2013
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-13/u-s-risks-joining-1933-germany-in-pantheon-of-deadbeat-defaults.html

Germany unilaterally ceased payments on long-term borrowings on May 6, 1933, three months after Adolf Hitler was installed as Chancellor. The default helped cement Hitler’s power base following years of political instability as the Weimar Republic struggled with its crushing debts.

“These are generally catastrophic economic events,” said Professor Eugene N. White, an economics historian at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey. “There is no happy ending.”

The debt reparations piled onto Germany, which in 1913 was the world’s third-biggest economy, sparked the hyperinflation, borrowings and political deadlock that brought the Nazis to power, and the default. It shows how excessive debt has capricious results, such as the civil war and despotism that ravaged Florence after England’s Edward III refused to pay his obligations from the city-state’s banks in 1339, and the Revolution of 1789 that followed the French Crown’s defaults in 1770 and 1788.
HuffPo may have had an inflammatory headline, the Bloomberg article is much more chilling.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
20. See response #14. JDPriestly stated why better than I ever could have.
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:28 PM
Oct 2013

My point was that HuffPo may have had a bad headline -- the article it linked to should scare the hell out of people.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
22. I don't think I am understanding what you are getting at.
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:48 PM
Oct 2013

I think there is a good reason to look at what happened to a major country when it defaults in historic terms.

It has to do with the repercussions.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
23. Sure
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:55 PM
Oct 2013

But that article doesn't do it. It rather explains the economic and political reasons a default was acceptable to the party in power and the people they were appeasing (who were suffering due to conditions set in motion from the first world war). Beyond that, it really doesn't say how the actually default specifically impacted the country beyond being an act that solidified support from their base. Isn't that what we want to know? The actual economic implications?

Blanks

(4,835 posts)
31. Which is why it isn't really analogous to the current situation...
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 08:47 AM
Oct 2013

Most Americans oppose the action so it isn't going to solidify support for the base. What they are trying to imply is that now we are going to try to take over the world or something. That now - somehow we are in the same boat as the nazis. Godwin's law.

It isn't a good analogy because (maybe) 20% of the country thought it was a good idea, and that was before they figured out that it affected them adversely. The base that it solidified was the base that thinks the tea party is taking the country in the wrong direction and not the 'its us against the world' crowd.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
14. Here is a simple explanation and brief history of the period:
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:54 AM
Oct 2013

Faced with little option, the German government under chancellor Heinrich Brüning decided to divert all economic output into exports in order eliminate the huge trade imbalance which made reparations payments so difficult. Between the two, too much wealth was leaving the country. Spending cuts and tax hikes, put into effect by emergency decree, had the result of increasing unemployment in Germany by 2.1 million. Subsequently, in the September 1930 elections, the Nazi party polled 6.5 million votes, or 18.3% of the vote. Nazi party representation in the Reichstag, Germany's parliament, expanded from 12 seats to 107, making them the second largest party. Although more wealth fled the country as a result, the government's deflation strategy did have the intended effect. The 2.9 billion Gold Marks trade deficit of 1929 was turned into a trade surplus of 2.8 billion Gold Marks by 1931.
Heinrich Brüning
German Chancellor Heinrich Brüning
"Harmony In Europe, 1932, the Detroit News
"Harmony In Europe", 1932, the Detroit News Artist unknown
This was not due to increased German exports, however. Those were falling. But they fell more slowly than did German demand for foreign goods.

At this point, the German government might have eased itself out of the crisis, if it would have accepted a foreign loan from France. However, Chancellor Brüning resisted any economic collaboration with France, their mortal enemy, and instead further agitated the strained relationship. As a result, he was forced into a second round of deflation. Then Brüning issued an aggressive demand for an end to reparations. This threw the international markets into fits. U.S. President Herbert Hoover temporarily suspended reparations, causing the Allies to default on their own loan payments to the U.S. By 1932, all war debt/reparation payments had effectively ceased, but instability wreaked havoc on the international currency exchange rates. Germany decreed yet another painful round of deflation.

By this time, the German economy was a disaster. Unemployment was up to 6 million, German banks were put under government control, and there was an epidemic of German bankruptcies. Finally, on June 1, 1932, Chancellor Brüning was ousted, and replaced by Franz von Papen. The cabinet which Papen formed had virtually no support. To gain the Nazis as allies, he repealed his predecessor's ban on the SA (the "brownshirts&quot . During Hitler's rise to power, the SA had functioned as his private militia, which he used to intimidate rivals and disrupt the meetings of competing political parties, especially those of the Social Democrats and the Communists. The SA were notorious for their street battles with the Communists. With the ban against them lifted, riots between the SA and Communists quickly erupted on the streets of Berlin in June 1932, resulting in more than 400 street battles and 82 deaths.

Lots more here:

http://www.authentichistory.com/1930-1939/4-roadtowar/1-germany/

Economists debate the theories about why Germany's economy fell into such a horrible state and why Germans reacted with so much hate against a few minorities as a result, but the lesson is clear: The cost of default to your own economy is horrible.

We need to tax imports. It doesn't have to be a large tax.

Germany owed war reparations for the damages incurred by other countries especially France in WWI. We owe China simply because we import too much junk from that country and others. We don't need to abolish imports. We just need to make them more expensive. With the money we can regain our budget balance.

Our government is not just some entity that lords it over us individual citizens. Our government tracks the health and life of the American people by collecting statistics and data on our cancer rates, the progress of our students in school, the quality of the life in the oceans that surround us. Our government developed the basic technology that put man into space, that is exploring the planets, the universe, that accumulates information on the tests of new materials and chemicals that could pose great dangers to humans and many other things -- the weather, epidemics, the financial well being or misery of ordinary Americans. We need a well funded government. But we can't adequately fund our government with a tax system that taxes work (making it more attractive to export work and the profits from it) and rewards laziness and living off your grandparents work (no inheritance taxes and no import taxes).

Republicans talk about tax reform, but they want to reform it so that labor is more costly than it is and inherited wealth and income from overseas investments more profitable than ever. We need to do precisely the opposite. We need to reward wealth from labor (and encourage some sensible money management at the personal level if not plain old frugality) and penalize wealth with derived from the labor of others. Nothing wrong with wealth accumulated by employing others. That's a good thing to do. But when you employ people in China or Japan (paying very low taxes to the US government on the profit you earn from the labor of people outside the US) while people in your own country (who pay the taxes that keep your highways paved, your schools running, your scientists learning, your food safe, etc.) have no jobs and low if any incomes, then you are harming yourself and your country. Don't pretend to be a patriot if you export jobs while Americans earn low wages or no wages and your government does not have the money needed in the 21st century.

Republicans hate science. They hate progress. They are ignorant. This shut-down proves it.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
19. Im very aware of the lead up
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:27 PM
Oct 2013

I was just more interested in exactly how this impacted the economy (which was already in the shit). There was mention that the post 1933 economy was terrible, but nothing implicating the default for being responsible. They were also transforming into a fascist state and were already on shaky ground. This was just one of many blunders the party used to scapegoat and then save the people from the wrongs of the Weimar Republic

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
9. K&R.
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:26 AM
Oct 2013

And shutting the government is having disastrous effects on science in the US. Disastrous. If this continues we will be set far behind countries that are functioning democratically, countries like Germany and France. The Republicans are ignorant and hate science. They hate learning. They wallow in their own stupidity. It's a terrible shame. Over 200 years of democracy and they still don't understand that the majority rules.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
16. This is what happens when you sit at the table with the "Master Race"....
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:16 PM
Oct 2013

They feel they not only owe you NOTHING but that you should pay THEM Tribute out of sheer awe and respect of their Holy Whiteness.

 

SamYeager

(309 posts)
17. So the people who scream Obamacare is just like Nazi Germany
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:25 PM
Oct 2013

are going to force us to default on our debt, just like Nazi Germany?

You just can't make this shit up!

kydo

(2,679 posts)
18. I've been saying this for sometime now
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:25 PM
Oct 2013

and what happened? A small gang of racist thugs led by a person, who for all intensive purpose was insane, but knew how to sell his snake oil, bullied their way into power. Sound familiar? It should as it describes both the Nazi party and the current republican party. And yeah I ditched the bagger label here because the republican party owns this as they are the tea party. It's ok the new version of Hitler aka Cruz will put a good chunk of his base under the bus much like the way Hitler did with his brown-shirts once he is in power.

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
25. Our POLICE STATE has been writing itself around the US Constitution/Bill of Rights. NSA. Cameras
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 01:02 PM
Oct 2013
everywhere. Where did the 1% intend this to lead??? Too many similarities, with a 21st Century facade.

They always said 9/11 would "change" everything.
 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
26. And May 2, 1933 Nazis abolished Labor Unions
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 02:22 PM
Oct 2013

On May 2nd, 1933, the day after Labor day, Nazi groups occupied union halls and labor leaders were arrested. Trade Unions were outlawed by Adolf Hitler, while collective bargaining and the right to strike was abolished. This was the beginning of a consolidation of power by the fascist regime which systematically wiped out all opposition groups, starting with unions, liberals, socialists, and communists using Himmler’s state police.

TomCADem

(17,387 posts)
28. Of course, what is often ignored is that the Nazis were supported by Industrialist who thought...
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 11:21 PM
Oct 2013

...they would not be impacted by the rise of the Nazis. As noted in this thread, in one notable instance, a heavy financial backer of the Nazis found himself being liberated from a Nazi prison by American soldiers:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3843571

thecrow

(5,519 posts)
27. Thanks for this link... it was a good response to a teabagger's facebook post.
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 02:46 PM
Oct 2013

She had posted some blog post from "beliefnet" about how the Nazis destoyed the earth through destroying religion. I think she was comparing it to the US. They will use anything. won't they?

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