Bashing the South

[CreekDog]

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that one day down in Alabama with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and little white girls as sisters and brothers.

I apologize to those Southerners who are offended by these quotes.

However, to those who believe in Civil Rights, no doubt you agree with the quotes, even as you rightly love and care about the place you live or come from.

Telling the truth about something is a constructive thing, whether or not you feel it is "bashing".

[Hutzpa]

1. I hope this is not taken out of context.

nt

[treestar]

2. I am tired of the South as Victims

They need to take responsibility. Quit complaining about "South Bashing." This poor me I'm a southerner mentality is ridiculous. It ought to be yes the South has two many tea partiers, help me turn this state blue.

[Scootaloo]

3. I agree...

However, as a former southerner myself (born and raised in Mobile, AL) from generations of southerners, it's been my experience that "victimhood" is a major part of the culture there. Every problem in the south is because hte south is being mistreated by someone else - whether it's the evil ne'er-do-well northerners, the blacks, the Vietnamese, or the Mexicans, every problem is someone else's fault - or perhaps it's not really a problem, it's "just the way it is" and we're all very naughty for portraying it as a problem, bless our hearts.

1865 was a long, long time ago, but a lot of southerners are still living it, and it skews the entire culture. Even if we take the time demanded of us to pat each and every individual exception on the head for being in the modern era (congratulations, you're adequate!) it doesn't change the core problem... and in fact feeds it, as these people are professing victimhood as well.

[cordelia]

39. Once again you take your own personal anecdotes and

present them as fact.

And you only do it to denigrate the South.

My anecdotal experiences are different than yours.

Who's right?

[Mariana]

83. Maybe it's a Mobile thing.

I lived there for eight years, and I still have friends there that I visit. My experiences have been the same as Scootaloo's.

It's been a few years since I've been in Mobile at Mardi Gras time. I wonder if the Krewes and the balls are still utterly and completely segregated by race.

[Scootaloo]

89. "It's been my experience"

Did you not notice this? I made it pretty clear I was speaking from my own experience growing up and living in the south.

If what I learned and saw bothers you, well frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

[kelliekat44]

45. But isn't that what they (the south) complain about minorities..."victimhood?" nt

[YoungDemCA]

10. And I'm tired of people misrepresenting MLK.Jr's legacy to absolve non-Southern whites of racism...

...and yes, this includes non-conservatives.

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

snip:

So I have not said to my people: "Get rid of your discontent." Rather, I have tried to say that this normal and healthy discontent can be channeled into the creative outlet of nonviolent direct action. And now this approach is being termed extremist. But though I was initially disappointed at being categorized as an extremist, as I continued to think about the matter I gradually gained a measure of satisfaction from the label.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

[joshcryer]

12. MLKs white moderate is not today's white moderate.

Completely different types of people.

[Sissyk]

59. And, the south today is not the same

as MLK's South.

Completely different times.

Lots of racism still? Absolutely. But, we are all making progress.

The only time I EVER hear the Civil War mentioned or talked about, is here. It is not a topic of conversation in a crowd of people unless you count those stupid re-enactments. And, that stupid teabagger at a rally of what? Maybe 200 people?

We can only do it one mind at a time, one step at a time.

And, we are.

[CreekDog]

18. Dr. King nor I absolved white racists outside the south

The South has a racist legacy based in history.

The nation as a whole, northern, midwestern and western have racial history and continuing problems with racism towards blacks as well. Both things can be simultaneously true.

BUT Martin Luther King, Jr. DID SPECIFICALLY mention these two states of Alabama and Mississippi in stark terms noting their "racists" and "injustice" respectively.

THAT is worth noting.

And if you think these states and the South in general don't have a worse legacy in terms of race than any other part of the country (the rest of the country's record is bad, but the South's is horrible...), then you don't know your history.

[treestar]

61. Non-southerners are often racist.

There is no doubt about that.

But I have heard Southerners use that as - an excuse? A deflection. The history of the South is obviously different.

The Southern Representative in the move 1776 had a big song about it and generally it was based on the reality that Northerners were involved in the slave trade, even if they didn't have slaves. Nobody denies that. But by 1860, Northerners weren't insisting on continuing slavery.

Northern states had Jim Crow type laws too, but didn't fight as hard to keep them when they became unconstitutional. To what states did the National Guard end up having to go in order to force the South to abide by the law?

[cordelia]

40. Yeah, we have "two" many teabaggers, but

hateful attitudes like yours don't exactly win us many converts.

You dilute any progress we have made, or are trying to make.

[treestar]

63. Why is it "hateful?"

Racism is a bigger problem in the south. Any liberal southerner should have no problem with that.

When I lived in the South, I also heard plenty of comments to the effect that I felt superior because I was a Yankee, which was a prejudiced assumption. They would assume that where I lived, there was a lot of pollution, too, and had other little comments putting down the non-Southern States. By your standards I would assume you found that "hateful" too. I was young at the time and didn't like it - now I would shrug it off. But there is a victim mentality there, that refuses to acknowledge the history.

[kentauros]

43. Except that we HAVE been asking "help me turn this state blue"

and get "Fuck you, you're a Southerner, and ALL of you keep voting these teabaggers into office" in reply.

Or have you truly not been paying attention to the replies we've been getting in all of these similar threads lately?

[treestar]

64. No, I do see posts very hopeful about turning states blue

NC, even Texas.

The posts about "let them secede" are really just venting. It's not going to happen. And the liberal southerner knows they are surrounded and outnumbered by right wingers and outright racists and has no reason to take offense. They know these venting DUers don't mean them. It's the Southern victim mentality where we're supposed to feel wrong for wanting the states there as such to liberalize their attitudes.

[kentauros]

65. Yes, I see the supportive ones, too.

However, we're talking about the ones that bash us, and they outnumber the ones that are supportive, at least on DU. Also, I have talked with the ones calling for us to go ahead and secede. It's not venting. They truly believe we should, that somehow what's left of the country would be better off without us. If it were just venting, then they'd realize how big of a catastrophe that would be for the entire country and the world. What almost happened this week would pale in comparison for economic catastrophe. It's not venting; it's a fantasy they'd love to realize and then don't bother to think it all the way through. That would be too much work.

You must not know that many liberal Southerners, either, or you're only basing your statement of "And the liberal southerner knows they are surrounded and outnumbered by right wingers and outright racists" on some specific areas of the South. If you did know more of us, and listened to our experiences, you'd know this statement is literally untrue. I live in Houston. Our political demographics are a strong purple and moving to blue. The same goes for most of the largest cities in Texas (I still can't quite figure out Corpus Christie's resistance to change.) The largest cities in the South are similarly turning blue and purple.

I really don't know where you're getting this "Southern victim mentality" if you've supposedly paid attention to our posts on DU. I guess, again, y'all are lumping us together with the whole region, the conservatives being the group that embraces the victim mentality. We Southern Liberals are trying to get things turned blue down here, only to meet with the same old resistance from those outside of this region, all too often acting like because we're not turning it 100% blue, then we're not trying hard enough.

If you haven't yet figured it out, we are the ones venting our frustration and aggravation with the rest of the country writing us off as a lost cause yet again. We're not being victims. We're asking for help and being told "Fuck off and die, Southerner!"

[treestar]

66. I know the liberals are in the cities

but obviously you are outnumbered by the rural conservative voters and they are still in your state.

I went to college there so I know the victim mentality. Very defensive and assuming a Northerner thinks they are superior - hinting that the North is overcrowded and polluted whereas the South is lovely and pristine.

Every time someone questions the south as a region or recognizes it as an area heavily red, you get that called bashing and a whole new thread about how the poor South is being called out again. Make fun of Texas for electing Cruz and the like - that's not bashing liberal Texans. I'd do it if I were from Texas. If my state of Delaware had elected Christine O'Donnell to the Senate I'd make fun of Delaware all day.

No one really wants the South to secede. Even if they did, it's not going to happen. Though I do have a Southerner I debate with regularly who, though possibly just teasing us, insists the South should secede and that it would do better than the rest of the US - keeps insisting the South was richer and the North did not care about slavery but just wanted the tax revenue. That blacks were better off as slaves and other things so absurd that I think he may be kidding.

[kentauros]

69. Any bashing of any whole region bashes all that reside in that region.

It doesn't matter if you're bashing Texas because you hate Cruz, or if you're bashing the Northeast because you hate Guiliani. Targeting a broad region attacks all that reside in that region, including those that aren't your target. And we're supposed to just let that slide? No, that's not going to happen. That's not being a "victim." It's about calling out broad-brushing as wrong, no matter which region it is.

I get the impression, too, that you're either not "listening" to me, or you haven't seen the examples in all these threads I have used as examples of the bashing and berating we get from "fellow" DUers. If I have to name names, I will, though I only know about six off the top of my head. Others will have to fill in the ones I can't remember specifically.

[MFrohike]

4. Nice start

I'm sure the usual cast will be in here to shit it up in a hurry, but it's a good beginning. It's one thing to talk about where the south is and where we want it to be, it's another to just write us off. You did the former, which is a welcome change.

[BainsBane]

5. You could substitute America for Mississippi

and the statements would be no less true.

[CreekDog]

6. well, you can correct Martin Luther King, Jr. if you'd like

i think i will not.

[YoungDemCA]

9. You selectively quote from MLK, Jr. to single out Southern racism...

...conveniently forgetting that MLK, Jr. was no less committed to ending racism, poverty, and militarism nationwide.

Take, for instance, his point that segregation's purpose wasn't just to keep blacks out in the streets but to keep poor whites from taking to them and demanding economic justice. There's a concept that's not likely to come up in, say, the speech John McCain was rumored to be planning for today. "The Southern aristocracy took the world and gave the poor white man Jim Crow," King lectured from the Alabama Capitol steps, following the 1965 march on Selma. "And when his wrinkled stomach cried out for the food that his empty pockets could not provide, he ate Jim Crow, a psychological bird that told him that no matter how bad off he was, at least he was a white man, better than a black man.

It's thoughts like those that made him decidedly less popular at the time of his death than today. The bloom started to wear off King's media rose when he turned his attention to Northern racism. The central defense Southern segregationists offered when thrust on the national stage was that their Jim Crow was no more of a brute than the North's. King agreed, and in announcing his organization's move into Chicago, he called the North's urban ghettos "a system of internal colonialism not unlike the exploitation of the Congo by Belgium." And he named names, pointing to racist unions as one of a dozen institutions conspiring to strip-mine black communities. So much for "inspirational." But then, like now, nobody wanted to hear such talk -- only the black press paid any attention.

Later, when a white mob hurled bricks and cherry bombs at marchers in Chicago, King told reporters that the scene outdid anything below the Mason-Dixon Line. "I have never in my life seen such hate," biographer Taylor Branch quotes him as saying. "Not in Mississippi or Alabama." Today, we hear little about the ideas that experience provoked for King: His deathbed blueprint for changing America's caste systems included a three-pronged attack on racism, poverty, and war.

http://prospect.org/article/dr-king-forgotten-radical

[freshwest]

11. Thanks very much for the context and link.

[Skip Intro]

14. +100. Busted!!! Truth trumps bullshit yet again.

Thanks for raining some reality on his dishonest little hate parade.

[CreekDog]

19. it's not busted to quote Martin Luther King, Jr. in long form or short form

he's one of the most famous people in the history of our country.

scholars, historians, people from all walks of life quote Martin Luther King, Jr. in phrases, full sentences, full speeches and extensive writings.

there is nothing wrong with that.

and there is nothing out of context with pointing out that Martin Luther King, Jr. named specific places for their racism and/or injustice in his most famous speech. that is absolutely relevant and those statements he made within that great speech are as relevant as any other sentences in the speech.

he wrote those words, he said those words, they were part of the illustrations he made in the speech and they should be remembered.

i'm sorry you feel the need to defend the region you live as if Martin Luther King, Jr. did not consider it racist, he did. did he consider other places not racist? no. but much of his legacy was devoted to Civil Rights in the South because it was there that the violations of human dignity were so particularly horrible.

and that's worth noting.

[cordelia]

41. Busted.

[CreekDog]

74. not busted at all. but if you'd like me to lie or conceal this history and these quotes

then just ask.

[CreekDog]

17. i don't disagree with the idea that King fought more than racism and more than racism in the South

i never said he didn't.

in fact, i've posted on DU in the past about many things that King fought for that weren't exclusive to the South.

that said, there is nothing wrong with quoting key statements he made about Southern states from his most famous speech.

taking him out of context? he did think those states were racist. he did not say other places weren't racist, but he did single out those states as particularly noteworthy. there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

besides, if i have to tell you or others here that these quotes came from his most famous speech and that they are part of a larger speech, then you shouldn't be lecturing me about Dr. King because if one doesn't know where these quotes come from, they have something to learn, not something to teach.

[JustAnotherGen]

32. Historically

The economic system of the South (and to some degree today) was dependent upon slavery by any other name and an "other" to make impoverished whites feel better about their lot in life. The rich, affluent, and wealthy needed thi structure for survival.

Today however - it has expanded throughout the US. The problem is still economic and it still depends on a white population that needs an "other" to blame for their woes. It is aided by a few rogue SCOTUS activist judges and extremely wealthy people who are able to deliver the message of the "other" through a bought and paid for media.

I don't believe 2020 is some golden year where a pot of gold and leprechauns are dancing at the end of a rainbow. I do believe that Gen Y and younger will find the concept of the "other" based upon skin or religion or sexuality will make a huge change in America. They aren't uncomfortable with the discussion.

[raccoon]

33. Thank you! nt

[cordelia]

35. Thank you very much for your time and effort in putting this

together.

The South has problems. We admit that.

So does every region, every state in this country.

The blind, seething, unapologetic hatred by some on this site for everyone who lives in the South is bigoted and disgusting.

[CreekDog]

75. You're accusing MLK of hating the South?

because I quoted him and you're complaining that this is bashing.

he didn't hate The South. if you doubt that, take it up with him.

[pecwae]

48. Thanks for this.

Sometimes folks need a little education.

[Eleanors38]

55. If King were an American flag, you'd be wrapped up in it.

[CreekDog]

76. If King were a gun, you'd venerate it

just like Eleanor's.

venerate the people? not so much.

[Eleanors38]

85. Not even a "nice try."

[YoungDemCA]

8. +100000

The non-Southern United States cannot wash its hands of its own responsibility for racism.

The myth of Southern exceptionalism-that America would be a progressive utopia, if only those knuckle-dragging backwards rednecks down South wouldn't screw things up-is just that: a myth.

[CreekDog]

21. there's no washing of hands of racism here from me

oh no. i've complained about racism nationwide and i continually do.

it's not gone and it's not only in certain regions.

but certain regions to have particularly notable histories with regard to racism and segregation.

if you don't think that's fair to point out, your issue is with MLK not me.

[Skip Intro]

13. +100. n/t

[JI7]

7. Obama won 10 and 15 percent of the White Voters in Mississippi and Alabama

The MSNBC rundown of Obama's white vote in selected states, based on 2012 exit polls:

Mississippi: 10%

Alabama: 15%

North Carolina: 31%

Florida: 37%

Virginia: 37%

National average: 39%

Ohio: 41%

Michigan: 44%

Minnesota: 48%

Wisconsin: 48%

Iowa: 51%

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2012/11/19/obama-southern-white-vote/1714291/

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Were these states moved to the South?

Utah -- 17%

Alaska -- 25%

Idaho -- 28%

Kansas -- 29%

Nebraska -- 31%

Arizona -- 31%

South Dakota -- 34%

North Dakota -- 35%

Indiana -- 36%

Nevada -- 37%

You know what would be really interesting? Comparing the actual white population and how they voted in regards to their percentage.

[JI7]

16. the 10 and 15 is based on the white population of those states

along with the rest of the states in that link. i mentioned those 2 because those were the states mentioned in the OP .

[Behind the Aegis]

20. But the white population is different in those states.

There are also different in many of the states mentioned. Look at the white population of MI. The white population who voted for Obama, 44%, is MORE THAN the entire population of the state of Mississippi. Of course, this proves absolutely nothing, because I would guess we would see similar voting patterns in regards to Kerry and Gore. But...

The Bad News About White People: Romney Won the White Vote Almost Everywhere

If only white people had voted on Tuesday, Mitt Romney would have carried every state except for Massachusetts, Iowa, Connecticut and New Hampshire, according to the news media’s exit polls. Nationally, Romney won 59 percent of the white vote, a towering twenty-point margin over Obama. (Exit polls were canceled in nineteen states by the consortium of news media that run them.)

The pattern is not limited to the South, with its history of racism and segregation. Even in the deepest blue states, white voters went for Romney: 53 percent in California, 52 percent in New York, 55 percent in Pennsylvania.

Liberals hoped that whites who opposed Obama in 2008 would learn toleration and acceptance of racial difference after four years with a black president in the White House. But what happened was the opposite: Romney won 4 percent more of the white vote in 2012 than John McCain won in 2008.

In New York and Wisconsin, Romney won 6 percent more of the white vote than McCain in 2008; in California and Florida, he won 7 percent more; in New Jersey he won 8 percent more. Even in Massachusetts, where Obama’s margin of victory was 61 percent, Romney increased the Republicans’ proportion of the white vote by four percentage points over 2008.

more: http://www.thenation.com/blog/171093/bad-news-about-white-people-romney-won-white-vote-almost-everywhere#

Seems this problem isn't limited to the South.

[JI7]

23. don't you think there is a difference with 10-15 percent vote v 45-48 or even 30 percent ?

i know the problem isn't just in the south though.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. The percentages do matter.

But, it also depends on the number of the percentage. You may claim to know the problem isn't just the South, but your original post doesn't indicate it; so, that is good to hear. When on group is singled out, when in fact others are doing the exact same thing, then it is "bashing." When it is used to prove the "lack of worthiness" of a group (or region), then it is bigotry (regionalism).

[JI7]

26. in california there are areas which are some of the most bigoted in the country

but the majority of the state keeps them from getting too much power. but we see this is why they can't win statewide but in certain districts they exist.

but we do need to consider states like mississippi and alabama and their voting patterns if we want to win in the future. we know we can't put them in the same category as virginia or north carolina when trying to get votes.

but it helps to get an idea of where to start.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. And some of that, most perhaps, has nothing to do with bigotry.

It actually has to do with education and poverty. When one looks at the voting patterns in regards to Obama and any prior democratic candidate, we see similar patterns. Were those people voting against whites? Unlikely. It is not to say that some white voted against Obama, not for McCain or Romney. However, reducing the South to a group of racist, inbreed, bigots does nothing, not a damn thing, to change the South. There is a difference in criticizing the South and blaming the South. Just like the teabaggers and their ilk, there are many on the other side who are just as regressive; they only see the South through one lens.

[LuvNewcastle]

29. Thanks, BTA. Great post!

[cordelia]

36. Thank you for yet another great post. n/t

[Jamastiene]

80. Thank you.

[Are_grits_groceries]

22. MLK Jr was head of the Southern Leadership Conference.

One of their stated aims was this:
White Americans to not stand by and meekly watch while wrongs were being committed against the black community. This point emphasised the belief by the SCLC that not all white Southerners were racist and gave the opportunity to bring whites on board the cause of the SCLC. By using the word ‘Negro’ in its original title, the movement effectively blanked out any chance that white Southerners might help them. The change in title overcame this.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/southern_christian_leadership_co.htm

MLK Jr knew the whites in the South were not all racist haters. He made that point clear. That's why I have never felt that he was 'South bashing.' He was aiming at certain people.

He would be appalled at the people here who want the South to secede and continually lump everybody down here together. He fought to change the region and I believe he still would even knowing the outcome. He was always aware that he was in danger.
He never gave up on the South and he faced people who make most today pale in comparison. MLK Jr received the brunt of the worst reactions in many ways.
MLK Jr rightly believed that the South was his home too and he refused to be run from it.

I consider it bashing when people refuse to acknowledge that there are good Democrats down here. They apparently refuse to look beyond the loudest and the nastiest people who make the news. In addition, other very racist people and places are not addressed.

How is it constructive to dump on everybody especially fellow DUers? How is it constructive to only criticize and not try to help those of us down here who have been pushing back for years? The truth is not destructive. However, using the truth to indiscriminately smack everyone is. In addition, the truth is a nebulous thing. The truth is different things to different people.

I am not a victim. I certainly haven't suffered 1% of the pain that others have. However, pointing out what I believe to be fallacies in others thinking is not the same as believing I am a victim.

I expect to be jumped on again for posting this. I don't feel victimized by it. I do feel dismissed and disrespected by many who do answer.

'Bless your hearts' and you know whose hearts I mean.

Grits

[CreekDog]

24. You have to get over your offense here in order to understand a few things

1) to call a place racist doesn't mean everyone in it is racist

racism in the Alabama of MLK's time was enshrined by the government.
racism among the populace was also pervasive and rampant.

there were great people who were not racists and those who fought racism in Alabama.

one can believe that and also note that overall, it is a place with a horrible record on race.

these things are not mutually exclusive any more than Alaska being a cold place but having a hot summer day here and there. both are true.

2) MLK's own actions and words don't absolve other regions of racism, but his work was particularly strong in the South because the institutional and legal racism was so bad there.

the idea that the effect of racism was to the same degree in all parts of the US and no one place had a worse record than others is ridiculous. that said, no place was free of racism, but certain places absolutely had enforced segregation and King fought that in particular.

[Are_grits_groceries]

28. You have to get over yourself and understand a few things.

1-People don't even acknowledge that there are decent people here a lot of times. There is no distinction made as you claim it is. We are just supposed to be happy as hell to be lumped in with Teabaggers. You claim that's not what is meant. That is the perception which does matter and for some it's not just a perception.

2-I did not say that that there was the same degree of racism in 'all parts of the US.' I said there were some places in the US where racism is just as bad.

I have never denied the shameful history of the South. We do have to continue to fight those who are racist haters. There is far too much such shite tolerated here by many. That does not obliterate the record of those who have pushed back.

If every person in the South became a true supporter of rights for all, we would still be harangued about our backwards ways. In addition, you would then have to confront the nastiness in other areas.
The DOJ should keep a special eye out down here. I welcome that. We do have a unique responsibility to continue to fight the hate. Some of it will always be rooted here and that requires eternal vigilance.

There is one thing you better understand. While people focus on the South, they better also keep an eye out in their own backyards. What could be growing there is just as nasty if not as widespread. They fly under the radar and even in it. Ignoring them is like ignoring fire ants. They will be one place while secretly tunneling all over to spread their influence and establish other homes.
Catch them now. If you don't, it is much harder to eradicate them later.

[CreekDog]

30. then we don't disagree, but then why did you take me on in the thread as you did?

and while you have a point about being concerned everywhere --I agree.

[bluestate10]

42. Institutional and legal racism existed in other parts of the country during MLK's life,

and to a limited extent, still exists. It is just that racism in the South is more visible. The problem is what is in the heart and mind of a particular person. If a race hating person of any color gains office, that person will try to craft policy that hurts those that he or she hates or is wary of.

Racism won't go away until people who aren't racists find the courage to stomp it out, whenever it rears it's head. This means taking on family and close friends, challenging public officials and fighting against the invisible barriers that are put up to prevent some people from gaining full economic and societal equality.

[CreekDog]

77. where did I say such racism didn't exist outside the South?

jeez. can you hold more than one simultaneous thought without thinking they are mutually exclusive?

[bluestate10]

87. Where did I write that you said racism existed only in the South.

I rather clearly stated that the South had a more corrosive form of the type of racism that you correctly called out. My point was that very racism existed outside the South. What I wasn't clear on is that racists in the modern South have learned to mask their racism like people in other parts of the nation, and that is dangerous because most people can't distinguish masked racism.

[Eleanors38]

54. You are transparent. You want an "unreconstructed" license to hate and disparage.

A license you seek for no other place, state or region; a license to wield with abandon, and with NO constructive purpose other than to promote your own sense of moral superiority; a license to conduct culture war based on Place and not on ideas.

Ain't no one gonna issue one.

[CreekDog]

73. Please show where I posted any hate of the South

I love the South, I spent a lot of time there as a kid. Many heroes are from there.

Being honest about a place's history is not hating.

[Eleanors38]

86. We know the history. What is your point? nt

[CreekDog]

94. you said i posted hate towards the South, when asked you can't quote any hate from me

so i guess the point is that you're lying.

which means this is kind of a pointless exchange.

[Eleanors38]

95. Same ol' Creekdog. You're part of the prob. nt

[Hoyt]

31. I don't remember anyone but southerners chasing Blacks out of restaurants with guns and axe handles

and then getting elected governor. Or, standing in doorway of state supported universities denying Blacks entry. Or segregated restrooms. Lynchings. Etc.

Clearly racism was/is everywhere, but it was a special brand of hatred in the South.

[cordelia]

37. We do remember those times from the 1960s. And earlier.

Got anything from THIS century?

You think it's not possible to change?

You have a whole LOT of hate for us.

And that equals bigotry.

[Hoyt]

44. Sorry could not help laughing my rear off. You are kidding?

You think racism went away when the feds made them stop burning crosses on lawns and stuff. Today's southern politicians, leaders, etc., are as racist/bigoted as the Klan. Ask any Hispanic that has been stopped and asked for proof of citizenship under RECENTLY enacted laws.

Like Charles Rangel said, back then they beat you, nowadays they pass laws that hurt the poor (or don't expand Medicaid or something for racist reason).

That good enough for you?

[Art_from_Ark]

58. Arkansas, at least, is expanding Medicaid

and has done other things to help the poor, like reduce property taxes for elderly people and reduce sales taxes on food. And none of the state's 4 US representatives are members of the Tea Party Caucus.

And minorities have been stopped and frisked for no reason in New York City, among other non-Southern places.

[cordelia]

62. Glad you got a good laugh. I did, too. At you.

So somehow you think your bigotry trumps others' bigotry?

That's rich.

I never claimed that racism no longer exists, I said that progress has been made. And it has.

[Hoyt]

68. Glad you think so. I ain't cheering right now.

[bluestate10]

46. Only a fool would deny that racism in the South was once corrosive. But, only a fool would claim

that positive change around race hasn't happened. When one keeps harping on the visible signs of racism, one runs a risk of missing the far more prevalent problem of systemic racism. When a Black, Hispanic, Muslim, Jewish person, ect is denied a job or promotion because of their race and nothing else, is that not as bad or worse than being chased out of a restaurant by an axe handle wielding thug? Not having a job or not making as much money as one should be making has a corrosive impact of the person being discriminated against and I argue on all of society. If we don't strive to get the most qualified people into jobs and allow them to excel, we create many drag points on economic prosperity for the nation.

Fight visible racism, it needs to be eliminated. But don't have a blind eye toward systemic racism that often happens right under our noses, in the South and all over the country, including in deep Blue states. That racism is often perpetuated by family, friends coworkers and takes a clear moral viewpoint and courage to fight.

[Hoyt]

56. I may be a fool, but I know most of sons/daughters of bigots I grew up with haven't changed,

although tactics may have. Heck, you ought to see the Facebook bull about Obama, Democrats, and minorites of those I haven't yet de-friended.

It's still racism/bigotry and it's not good for country.

And the South really hasn't had a lot of positive change -- it's more window dressing than real change. And the big cities are more liberal because people have moved there from other more liberal states. Go to the rural areas if you are swayed by what you see in the big cities.

Heck, it was mid-1990s before they took the confederate flag off the capitol where I grew up, and that was because they wanted the Olympics.

Almost every Congressperson outside of the big city districts are racist/bigoted Tbaggers types. Not expanding Medicaid under ACA, is largely because of bigotry. Tough laws aimed at immigrants are because of bigotry. Unfair, voting laws, are because of bigotry. And it is more prevalent in the South.

And in recent years, they've expanded the bigotry to Hispanics, Muslims, just about all foreigners, etc.

I guess progress is going from employment ads that said, "No ______ need apply," to hiring hoards of HR personnel to figure out ways to react when a minority applies for a job.

It's "hate," they just do it differently, and it harms all of us.

[bluestate10]

88. You're right on your post, in particular the last part.

"I guess progress is going from employment ads that said, "No ______ need apply," to hiring hoards of HR personnel to figure out ways to react when a minority applies for a job.

It's "hate," they just do it differently, and it harms all of us."

Our nation would be 25-30% more efficient if racism is stomped our in the workplace. workplace racism is a massive drain on the nation's economic vitality.

[Texasgal]

92. My native grandma was JFK liberal.

and seriously, one of the largest Muslim populations reside in Dallas, TX almost compared to Dearborn, MI.

Broad brushes suck no matter where they are.

[TroglodyteScholar]

34. I lived in the southeast for the first 28 years of my life...

Last edited Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)

People who act like it's got the monopoly on racism are not interested in truth.

[pecwae]

49. Exactly.

Perhaps their constant South blaming tends to absolve their own deep seated racism and guilt. From a Northern state, born and bred? Oh, then, you couldn't possibly be racist.

[bluestate10]

38. Sometimes it happens only after a long struggle with setbacks, but good always win out over evil.

Martin Luther King is remembered as a revolutionary figure in American society, time will only gain MLK more reverence. The people that jailed MLk and beat or killed people fighting alongside MLK are largely forgotten, remembered only for the evil they wrought.

You are a southerner. Fight the good fight and don't bow or apologize to anyone. You will prevail over evil and your detractors, that is simply the only outcome if you fight well and determinedly.

[kentauros]

47. There is a HUGE difference between talking about one's problems

in a reasonable, calm, and genuinely concerned manner, and then getting the opposite, of being told "You're the problem! Stop voting these assholes into office and then, maybe, we can talk!"

See the difference? One is from someone that truly wants to help and change a situation, and the other is from someone that just wants to blame. Which one do you think we're going to respond to as a friend and fellow Liberal?

[pecwae]

51. It's so much easier, though.

Blame the South and Southerners en masse and get a warm fuzzy high minded feeling about being from an "approved" area.

[kentauros]

53. I had to smile at your description of "approved" areas :)

And it's so true, and so sad at the same time.

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Of course you do understand that 29 States allow legal discrimination

against LGBT people, not all of those States are in the South,but every State in the South is among those 29.
Those States have some people who are not 'approved' for even equal treatment in employment and in housing. Kentucky allows bigots to fire my people for existing. But you say you are offended that such things are criticized? Seriously? You can look at laws that allow refusal of housing to a minority group in your State and overlook that while whining that others do not embrace such laws nor the places that create and empower such laws?
If you are offended that people snark at your State, imagine the offense of people who are evicted under the laws of your State. Do you really see those things as equal offenses?
Again, Pennsylvania also has such laws, and they are in the North. But not one Southern State has made a more equal society for all. And yes, I do take issue with that and with those who do not see such crap as a problem, but whine when that crap is called out.

[kentauros]

72. First off, don't assume.

Don't assume that you know me. Don't assume you know what I think, what I stand for, what I support. Don't put words in my mouth. Remember that little bit about ass. u. me.

Second, when you bash whole regions (why do I have to keep defining this part? What am I doing wrong in defining what a "region" is to y'all?) you bash the good with the bad. You lump all the good people, all the Liberals in with the "bad", the conservatives, as if we are complicit with what they do simply because we haven't yet been able to defeat them. It's as if because we haven't won every Liberal agenda we are therefore failures. Do you truly not understand that we aren't perfect like y'all in the PNW and NE?

Really, talk about unrealistic thinking. I would bet that if I were to look into the history of your home state that I would find it had similarities to the South at some point and that it didn't just spring forth perfect for all people all the time as you seem to be depicting it now. Stop expecting the same perfection from everyone else because we can't make everyone here think the same way you do instantly. Have some patience.

Better yet, come on down here and help us make these changes that you hold so dear. You might even be surprised to find millions here trying to make the same changes as you rail against us for supposedly ignoring them.

[Glitterati]

50. Try again

http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-33-spring-2008/feature/does-my-town-have-racist-past
In 1999, I started researching sundown towns. These are overwhelmingly white communities that for decades stayed that way on purpose. The term derives from the signs that some towns posted at their corporate limits with warnings such as, "Nigger, Don't Let the Sun Go Down On You in Hawthorne," to quote the anti-greeting at the edge of Hawthorne, Calif., a suburb of Los Angeles. Although the term is not widely known east of Ohio, municipalities that were white on purpose are found, in abundance, from Maine to Florida.

I first learned of such towns as a college student in Minnesota in the 1960s. Classmates from the Twin Cities told me that Edina, the wealthiest suburb of Minneapolis, had an informal saying, "Not one Negro and not one Jew." Then I learned of Darien, Conn., one of the richest suburbs of New York City. Darien was made famous briefly for the practice by the Academy Award-winning movie of 1947, Gentleman's Agreement, about the method by which it kept out Jews. Later I learned of the motto that residents of Anna, Ill., applied to their town: "Ain't No Niggers Allowed."

Not By Accident
The notion that entire communities had abrogated unto themselves the right to keep out a racial or religious group seemed outrageous to me, so in 1999 I resolved to write a book about it. I imagined I would find maybe 10 of these communities in Illinois (my home state, where I planned more research than in any other single state) and 50 across the country. To my astonishment, I found probably 500 in Illinois alone, or 70 percent of all incorporated places in that state. I found hundreds more across the United States and now estimate that as many as 10,000 such towns existed at their peak, in about 1970. They ranged from hamlets such as Mize, Miss., population 300, to cities like Appleton, Wis., with 57,000 residents in 1970. "Sundown suburbs" often were even larger: Levittown on Long Island, population more than 80,000, and Warren, a Detroit suburb of 80,000.

[Orsino]

52. Broad-brushing is a breathtakingly selective way of "telling the truth."

The South is far from the only part of America that is resegregating itself.

[Eleanors38]

57. All prejudice has "truth" behind it.

[CreekDog]

79. Oh? What about prejudice towards African Americans?

where's the "truth" in that?

[Eleanors38]

84. Yeah. Same truth about white -Americans. Wanna hear it, or wanna alert?

We all have our truths, but some truths are more equal than others.

[Eleanors38]

98. In the all-day, everyday expressions of prejudice against these people or that,

you haven't as yet heard the half-baked rationales for these prejudices? You haven't heard someone "justify" a prejudice beyond mere looks and smells? I find that hard to believe.

[Orsino]

97. Air-quoted truth is for that other site. n/t

[Eleanors38]

99. Whatever that is. nt

[Shampoyeto]

60. That's not the kind of bashing that's being criticized elsewhere

Apples vs. oranges.

[rrneck]

67. I don't accept non apoligies.

Try again.

[CreekDog]

78. try what again? i didn't apologize.

[rrneck]

81. You apologized to people who disagree with you

because they disagree with you. That's a non apology.

You post quotes by Dr. King on a board that would universally embrace them. Thus, the implication is that there are those here who would not. That's not an apology. It's divisive bullshit.

Take your petty witch hunt elsewhere.

[nolabear]

71. Fine.Great.We suck.We are beneath you.We are horrible human beings.Our ancestors were disgusting.

We talk funny. We eat weird things, have simplistic religious beliefs and amusing cultural habits, not like those of the more evolved Northerners. We're all white poor trashy racist inbred teabaggers who should be sneered at and derided and made to know our place, because everyone knows we're inferior and interacting with us will just bring others down to our level.

I'm sure Dr. King would advocate that point of view. It's one with which he was very familiar.

You do incredible harm with posts like yours. I'm sorry it's more important to you to sneer than to reach out and take a more complex and nuanced stance. Oh, sorry; did I shock you with my understanding of the term "nuanced"?

[stillcool]

82. I don't live there

I live in the northeast and have encountered plenty of racism. The difference to me seems to be one of degrees. A friend of mine told me that racism is everywhere, but it's in your face in the south. There is no attempt to disguise it and it is accepted, making it somehow easier to deal with. Like at least they're honest, and you know where you stand. My perception is derived from the stories that come out of that area, and more so from the mouths of the various federal, state, and local officials that the people from those areas elect. It seems that to some their racist beliefs are a source of pride. Who cares what I think? Certainly no one from the south. I just wish their votes didn't affect my life.

[Texasgal]

91. Not true in my opinion.

The only place that I experienced severe JAW dropping racism was in philly.

[Texasgal]

90. Funny, the only place

I ever experienced outright DISGUSTING racism was in Philadelphia.

I was shocked and at a loss for words actually. I have never experienced it otherwise here in Texas. I am not kidding.

[Nye Bevan]

93. See, say what you like about Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.

At least they're not Southerners.

[rdharma]

96. Southerners bash themselves........

I moved here (NC) last year from CO.

I keep wondering when these folks are going to stop voting against their own best interests. It's like they're stupid...... and PROUD OF IT!

You can pray for Sarah Palin to be President of the US until your eyes bleed,...... but it ain't gonna' happen!

I live here and I see the collective bigotry, hatred of education, rampant poverty, dangerous drug abuse (meth), and religious craziness.

No..... this is not "region bashing"...... this is friggin' reality!

[baldguy]

100. Nobody on DU is "bashing" the South.

Some people just told the truth and the whiners think it's "bashing".

[cordelia]

101. Yes they are.

And you're condoning their bigotry.

[baldguy]

102. Southern conservatives represent the greatest threat America's security & prosperity in 100 yrs.

And if you believe that stating this simple, obvious fact is "bigotry", then you need to beware of rabbits trying to sell you a bridge in New York.

[aikoaiko]

103. Those quotes are welcome eloquent confrontations of southern racism.

"Fuck the South" not so much.

[abelenkpe]

104. Born and raised in the south!

And I will never willingly step foot in that stinking cesspool again.

Sorry south.