Snowden Says He Took No Secret Files to Russia

[cal04]

Edward J. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor, said in an extensive interview this month that he did not take any secret N.S.A. documents with him to Russia when he fled there in June, assuring that Russian intelligence officials could not get access to them.

Mr. Snowden said he gave all of the classified documents he had obtained to journalists he met in Hong Kong, before flying to Moscow, and did not keep any copies for himself. He did not take the files to Russia “because it wouldn’t serve the public interest,” he said.

“What would be the unique value of personally carrying another copy of the materials onward?” he added.

He also asserted that he was able to protect the documents from China’s spies because he was familiar with that nation’s intelligence abilities, saying that as an N.S.A. contractor he had targeted Chinese operations and had taught a course on Chinese cybercounterintelligence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/world/snowden-says-he-took-no-secret-files-to-russia.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

[SidDithers]

1. Maybe he gave them to the Russians...

During his stay at their embassy in Hong Kong.

Sid

[Luminous Animal]

2. Maybe he killed a baby panda with his bare hands

And ate it raw. Fur and all.

[SidDithers]

3. Maybe he's lying...nt

Sid

[Luminous Animal]

4. Maybe he's Canadian

[11 Bravo]

8. What's particularly sad is that you think that you just won the argument with ...

that little morsel of xenophobic horseshit.

[Luminous Animal]

10. Is there something wrong with Canadians? Is that your implication?

Because it wasn't mine.

[SidDithers]

12. Uh huh...

Sid

[11 Bravo]

15. Outstanding! Xenophobic AND intellectually dishonest!

You would make a great teabagger.

[SidDithers]

9. Maybe he's an idiot...nt

Sid

[Luminous Animal]

11. Maybe he's a steamboat.

[Shampoyeto]

16. You and those 2 members agree that maybe Snowden gave them secrets

They somehow think they disagree with you. I like the playful way you exposed their lack of evidence.

Maybe I am Michael Jackson's son.

[Marr]

31. OMG you're racist against steamboats!

[Luminous Animal]

43. I confess!

[MineralMan]

32. Weak...

Pathetic, really.

[BluegrassStateBlues]

5. Since he won't let a jury decide, I guess we have to take his word for it. nt

[grantcart]

6. Ok this is just comedic

he was able to protect the documents from China’s spies because he was familiar with that nation’s intelligence abilities.

he was a geek in a cube and had limited exposure to telephonic/internet surveillance.

He has no operational familiarity with Chinese intelligence.

[ljm2002]

13. You left out the next part...

...namely:

as an N.S.A. contractor he had targeted Chinese operations and had taught a course on Chinese cybercounterintelligence.

If he had indeed targeted Chinese operations and taught courses at the NSA on the topic, I'd say he was one of the few who did have such knowledge.

Can you please let the rest of us in on how you know of his "limited exposure to telephonic/internet surveillance" and how you know that he "has no operational familiarity with Chinese intelligence."

I get that you don't believe him. Okay, fine. But making assertions you cannot possibly back up does nothing to bolster your argument, and merely diminishes your credibility.

[Cali_Democrat]

14. Snowden also said he could tap the President's phone and listen to him any time he wanted to

Something tells me he's full of shit.

He also wildly inflated his resume.

So many people have been ratfucked by this guy.

[uponit7771]

18. +1, to say these things and not give the simplest of proof = full of crap. It would've been easy to

...record the prez as proof... just a small recording too.

[grantcart]

20. repllied downthread.

[Shampoyeto]

17. What is your source for your alleged knowledge of his China expertise?

If any.

[grantcart]

19. my knowledge is 20 years living in Asia and fluency in

an Asian language. I am one of the few Americans who has been certified by the Thai government as fluent in reading, writing and conversation. At my best I can hold a phone conversation at the person on the other end thinks I am Thai.

He didn't attend language training but he did have a job as a security guard at one, kind of like staying at a Holiday Inn.

For eight years I worked with diplomatic cover and had intimate knowledge of Thai intelligence operations. I even assisted on an undercover operation against a Filipino mob scam aimed at foreigners. I would never assume to 'know' all of the capabilities are. My brother in law who retired from 30 years of translating for the intelligence service would never assume to 'know' what the capabilities are.

No one who has a basic understanding of what is going on would ever presume to "know" what the intelligence operations are to an extent that they could make an assertion that they were able to prevent it 100%. If he was ever asleep during that time then they have could have had access to it and he would never know it.

I am not suggesting that he cooperated or that the Chinese 'picked his pockets', simply that if they wanted to they could have and he wouldn't even know it.

He is a GED qualified computer geek who has a fascination with Japanese Anime and some limited Chinese conversational ability, if he really understood how the Chinese and their operations he would have simply stated that he did not cooperate with them, which is the real issue and leave it at that.

To assert that sitting in a cubical somewhere gives you insight to the depth and span of field operations is hubris, w
hich he has in spades.

Put it this way; what would you think of the possibility of a computer geek from China that stayed in San Francisco for an extended time being able to thwart field agents of the CIA if they were determined to read your files?

I don't think the issue of 'leaking' to the Chinese is that significant because I don't think he really has source and method intelligence that the Chinese don't already have, but this guys hubris is entertaining.

More laughs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/us/for-snowden-a-life-of-ambition-despite-the-drifting.html?pagewanted=all

“Great minds do not need a university to make them any more credible: they get what they need and quietly blaze their trails into history,” he wrote online at age 20. Mr. Snowden, who has taken refuge in Hong Kong, has studied Mandarin, was deeply interested in martial arts, claimed Buddhism as his religion and once mused that “China is definitely a good option career wise.”

Guys like this were always showing up on the scene in Bangkok and they always assumed that they understood exactly what was happening, among the people I knew one committed suicide, one was murdered and one narrowly escaped death.

There is a whole subculture of entertainment based on the hubristic ignorance of the American expert who comes to Asia and proclaims that they are the ones that really understood what was going on. Somerset Maugham was the best at it. Snowden reads like one of his characters, to bad he went to Moscow or we could have been entertained by more statements where he proclaims his deep understanding of all things Chinese.

[Shampoyeto]

22. You provided no source but a biography of yourself

I wished that you would tell us how long he worked intercepting China communications and what he specifically did, instead of telling you that you are awesome.

Your anecdotes about yourself cannot help us determine whether Snowden had "limited" knowledge of the Chinese spying network.

[grantcart]

24. working and intercepting China communications (which he may or may not have done)

gives him zero insight on how the Chinese field intelligence operations run.

Zero.

What proves his ignorance is his hubris. He could have simply said "I didn't cooperate or hand over any material to the Chinese", which is AFAIK, true.

When someone says the Chinese (or American) couldn't have gotten it because "I am an expert on it" (especially given his narrow involvement in communication intercept) then that just shows a profound ignorance and is quite funny. In another interview he states:

"You are not even aware of what is possible. The extent of their (NSA) capabilities is horrifying.

But he is absolutely 100% confident that he can defeat the Chinese intelligence, absolutely sure, lol:

"There's a zero percent chance the Russians or Chinese have received any documents," Snowden said in an interview with The New York Times' James Risen, published Thursday.

Which is it, the agencies have capabilities that are horrifying and indefensible or Snowden can outwit the Chinese?

Beyond the obvious point that he can't be 100% that they didn't gain access without his knowledge he can't give ANY assurances that the information wasn't copied and diverted it after he gave it to 'journalists' in Hong Kong.

It is always entertaining to see a new member with just a few posts come to such an impassioned defense of the Libertarian Snowden, so let me just add

Fuck Ron Paul
Fuck Rand Paul
To the memory of Ayn Rand she was also a hubristic amoral hypocritical homophobe who railed against government help but signed up for Social Security and Medicare, her personal failure was seeded in the same hubris that Snowden now bears.

[DevonRex]

26. He never worked in SIGINT. He was a computer geek.SysAdmn.

Thank you for remembering that in the future. From all of us former SIGINT professionals who kept the world from blowing up circa the fall of 1983. You're welcome.

Chelsea Manning worked in SIGINT and was outstanding at her job. She saved lives while performing it.

[ljm2002]

27. You have not indicated that you have any expertise with cyber security and encryption...

...which is at the root of the question of whether the Chinese would have been able to read any of the files Snowden had. Good encryption is essentially uncrackable from a mathematical standpoint. There are other techniques for cracking encryption that are not purely mathematical, including cleartext attacks (where the attacker possesses some of the unencrypted text in a file and uses that to find keys); "social engineering" type attacks -- i.e., finding a sticky note on someone's desk with their password written down, or using names of their family members or pets, or birthdays, etc.; Internet-based attacks where traffic is sniffed and/or modified; keystroke capture, which can be software or hardware based; or the so-called "rubber hose" method, where the person in question is physically assaulted in some way until they surrender their keys. Snowden would have been aware of all these methods. Some of these can be eliminated: the Chinese would be very unlikely to possess cleartext copies of any of the NSA files he had; he would know enough to use complex keys and pass phrases, and not to write them down; the laptop used for reading the files was kept off the Internet; and he would surely remember if someone had entered his room and attempted to forcibly extract information from him.

Your background, while impressive, does not include cyber security, which is Snowden's area of expertise and is the only thing relevant here. Given that he worked at the NSA, I tend to believe that he is expert in that area. Your dismissal of him as "a GED qualified computer geek" is silly. The NSA is not going to hire someone without serious skills, whatever path they took to get there. You have zero knowledge of his skills, nor do you possess the expertise to assess his skills.

I do not have a problem with people not liking Snowden, or not believing him. I do have a problem with people making assertions they cannot possibly back up, as if doing so adds any weight to their arguments.

[grantcart]

29. what does cyber security have to do with

intercepting the material in his hotel room or lifting it off of the people he gave it to?

Multiple people had access to his hotel room.

At one point he admits that the intelligence forces have extreme capabilities

"You are not even aware of what is possible. The extent of their (NSA) capabilities is horrifying.

And yet he is absolutely 100% sure that nothing has been compromised beyond his control:

"There's a zero percent chance the Russians or Chinese have received any documents," Snowden said in an interview with The New York Times' James Risen, published Thursday.

I am not asserting that he assisted or that the Chinese got any documents, simply that the assertion that he is 100% sure that not a single document has reached either the Chinese or Russians is laughable and contradicts his other statements about how potent they are. It is so reminiscent of the nauseating hubris that so many Libertarians carry on their sleeves.

(Completely off the relevant point but Snowden was employed by the NSA as a security guard, but I can assure you that with 100,000 employees they have their share of employees who got into the system and have been employed way above their level of ability. That is beyond the point because the point isn't that he isn't clever but that he is so impressed with his own ability that he takes absolutist positions that are both ridiculous and contradict other things that he has said.)

[ljm2002]

33. You ask, "what does cyber security have to do...

...with intercepting the material in his hotel room or lifting it off of the people he gave it to?"

Those files were kept in encrypted format. Both Snowden and Poitras understood very well how to protect files operationally. Of course they had to view some of the files in decrypted format, i.e. as cleartext -- but this was done on a non-Internet-connected computer, and the decrypted files would have been erased from the computer hard drive afterward, using industrial-strength erasing techniques. Other than that, the files were kept in encrypted form on thumb drives. Even if the Chinese were able to obtain or copy those thumb drives it would be useless to them without multiple pass phrases, passwords and keys.

The files are in digital format and are accessed via computer. Please look up the definition of the term "cyber" if you don't understand how it applies here.

[randome]

36. I doubt the Powerpoint slides were encrypted.

Is anything that's been released so far known to have been encrypted?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

38. Oh come on...

...you may not have noticed, but those Powerpoint slides had a HUGE effect when they were released publicly. Yet you don't think that Snowden encrypted them? He has stated that all the files he had were kept in encrypted form on thumb drives. What information do you possess that indicates otherwise? Inquiring minds...

[randome]

39. No, I'm saying he simply copied some files and ran off with them.

You don't need to be a 'cyber-sleuth' to do that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

41. Please make some attempt...

...at intellectual honesty here.

Your post title, the one I responded to, was: "I doubt the Powerpoint slides were encrypted"

And yet Snowden, Greenwald and Poitras all talked about encrypted files on thumb drives.

However Snowden obtained the files, it is very clear that he kept them in encrypted format.

Now if you are claiming that the NSA did not keep them in encrypted format, so what? They certainly did not want outsiders to see them.

[randome]

45. I thought you were implying that Snowden did something other than copy files.

It isn't 'dishonesty' to engage in a debate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

48. This subthread began with the question...

...of what does cyber security have to do with whether the Chinese could, or could not have obtained Snowden's purloined information.

Your post that I was replying to stated:

I doubt the Powerpoint slides were encrypted.

Is anything that's been released so far known to have been encrypted?

I pointed out that the Powerpoint slides were indeed encrypted on Snowden's thumb drives. I will also point out that EVERYTHING that's been released so far was encrypted by Snowden, and retained in that format by Greenwald and Poitras until such time as they reached their respective home bases. Do you seriously dispute that?

As for your claim of what you thought I was "implying", please cite the statement(s) that you misinterpreted.

[FSogol]

23. And when they shot at him, he knocked the bullets out of the air! Pew! Pew!

Why does it sound like a little boy whenever he brags?
His super-code is super-encrypted.
He teaches super secret classes
His files are unbreakable.
His flying submarine is invisible.

[JI7]

7. of course, and Putin is just letting him stay there out of kindness

[Whisp]

21. would love to hear the undercurrent story on all this.

Here is my take on the behind the scenes.

GG finds out he's not really smarter than everyone else in the world.

No Bombshells for some time now. tic toc tic toc. Bringing America To It's Knees - show cancelled, sorry folks, no refunds.

GG gets dumped by the Guardian because he's a dangerous big mouth.

Snowden already knows this - his dad visited him not long ago and probably told Snowy to dump that creep.

Creep gets dumped.

GG claims to get the most wonderful job offer in all universes.

[ljm2002]

28. "Bringing America To It's (sic) Knees ...

... show cancelled, sorry folks, no refunds."

Did you happen to read this article, entitled "The NSA Revelations Destroying IBM Hardware Sales in China":

http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-revelations-kill-ibm-hardware-sales-in-china-2013-10

Seems like sales in all the BRIC countries are down.

So the jury's out on whether these revelations will damage US business and our dominance of the Internet. My guess is the effects will be profound.

"GG gets dumped by the Guardian" -- that does not appear to be what actually happened, as amusing as it may be for you to believe it.

""GG claims to get the most wonderful job offer in all universes" -- well, if you were an investigative journalist, and someone offered you the job of heading up a new online investigative journalism venue, being financed to the tune of $250M -- I think you also would find that a "most wonderful job offer".

[randome]

30. You're choosing to believe everything is as Greenwald says.

Remember when Ed Schultz moved to weekends? It was an 'opportunity' for him, too.

In fact, that's right up there with 'wanting to spend time with my family' as a weak rationalization.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

35. So are you claiming...

...that Pierre Omidyar is NOT investing $250M in a new investigative journalism enterprise, and that he has NOT asked Glenn Greenwald to head it up?

Sure we don't know the sequence of events. Maybe the Guardian did oust Greenwald. If so, he has certainly landed on his feet. I look forward to seeing how the new venture plays out. As I said in a recent post, there are definite hazards for Greenwald, as he will need to adjust to being not just a reporter but someone who has the responsibility to oversee an enterprise. But still, more power to him and to the new outlet.

[Blue_Tires]

34. Actually, if someone offered me $250 mil for a media site

I'd wonder what the benefactors were expecting to get in return...But that's just me....

[ljm2002]

37. Huh? Apparently Pierre Omidyar is interested in journalism...

...and he certainly has plenty of money to spare. Kudos to him for putting his money into an enterprise dedicated to investigative journalism, something that is sadly lacking these days.

Omidyar isn't just handing over $250M to Greenwald, you know. I'm sure Omidyar will bring his business expertise to bear on the whole thing. He certainly has the requisite background to do so. And he has chosen a very intelligent and determined investigative reporter to head up it up, which is a smart move IMO.

[Blue_Tires]

40. I'd hope the Poynter Institute gets a check while he's in the donating mood

And I'd hope this new venture has nothing but full accountability, transparency and the highest news quality in the name of "good investigative journalism"...

I'd also hope that Greenwald manages it with a bit more professionalism than he's shown in his career up to now...

[ljm2002]

42. Pierre Omidyar is not making a donation...

...he is funding a startup.

I'm sure you can find a way to contact Omidyar and suggest he make a donation to the Poynter Institute, if you are so inclined. In the meantime, Omidyar is free to invest his money as he sees fit. Personally I am glad to hear of a new startup dedicated to investigative journalism.

From my point of view, Greenwald has been quite professional. I guess for some people, Greenwald's strong statements -- such as his response to David Gregory on Meet The Press -- seem unprofessional because they ruffle feathers. I do not share that viewpoint.

[Blue_Tires]

44. I'm just saying

If he believes in principled journalism, I'd have thought Poynter would have been part of the discussion...By all accounts, Omidyar didn't even consult with them when he said he was trying to research the "tools good independent journalists need to be successful" (although in his defense he evidently has donated to CJR, which is better than nothing)...

Among other things, "unprofessional" to me means getting into pissing matches on twitter with critics, claiming the embassy terror threat was a manufactured ruse by Obama to silence the NSA story (without a modicum of proof to back this up), pimping the Oath Keepers anti-NSA ad (and then refusing to denounce it when called out), and being lightning-quick to call out journalistic lapses in others while getting pissy and overly defensive when given the same scrutiny...

[randome]

25. "Hey, I stole classified information, ran to Hong Kong, skipped out on my fiance...

...and my parents, worsened international relations and finally found a home in Russia."

"Trust me."
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Savannahmann]

46. Cal I've learned.

The majority on this site would be wearing Snowden t-shirts if this had happened while Bush was in office. But since President Obama is the one in charge, then the whistleblower is a traitor. Now, if (God/Goddess/Insert Deity here forbid) A republican get's into the White House, then the song will change and the gang will be calling on Whistleblowers to be protected from any harassment or negative action including a shortage of post it notes.

So the only threads that are acceptable are ones where Snowden is blasted as a weasel traitor, his girlfriend is referred to as a stripper or pole dancer, or preferably, that he has some sort of secret love affair going on with Greenwald. Otherwise, they don't want to hear it.

[AverageJoe90]

47. Typical of crooks like him, though.

You see it all the time with more ordinary criminals: they don't want to suffer the consequences so they'll deny, deny, and deny until their culpability is all but undeniable.
Snowden has apparently gone farther with this routine and even tried to basically claim that he tried to protect documents and was supposedly even "serving" the "public interest"........

Well, to this I can rightly & accurately say, bullshit, bullshit, and just plain bullshit. Goddamn, at least Chelsea Manning had the gumption to be 100% honest about her motivations, as badly botched as her attempts to uncover corruption had gotten, however well meaning they may have been. Snowden? He's just another dishonorable thief who somehow managed to get a job at the N.S.A., and by rather nebulous means at that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. A thief and a liar says he only stole A, not B

Excuse me while I don't give a shit.

Cool your heels in the federation, pal, because you're still wanted on a felony warrant stateside, and that's not likely to change. Learn Russian, maybe meet a nice girl. Get used to the television programming. You won't be watching MLB playoff games anytime soon.

[gulliver]

50. Well why didn't he say so before?

All is forgiven. He can come home now, tell his story to the judge, and be back in Hawaii by Thanksgiving. Who knew he didn't take any secret files to Russia? Glad he told us.