There are essentially 2 kinds of debt

[Jackpine Radical]

(or maybe more accurately, 2 poles on the debt spectrum).

One kind of debt occurs when you borrow a lot of money to take all your rowdy friends on a year-long binge and casino tour.

On a national level, this equates to going into the hole while building a military you don't need, fighting stupid wars, pouring Treasury money into bonuses for the bankers who already pocketed billions while gambling away your inheritance, etc.

The other kind of debt is where you borrow money to improve your house, get an education, and fix your car so you can get to work.

On a national level, this would equate to borrowing in order to put people to work building high-speed transcontinental rail, providing the whole country with broadband access, building a green energy network, setting up a true national health system, and similar things that will result in improving people's lives and healing the planet.

Conservatives always favor the former kind of debt, and progressives, the latter kind. Conservatives have this game of indulging in spending binges when in power, and then using the debt they run up as an excuse to prevent the progressives from creating the second kind of debt.

And I'm getting really fed up with this stupid game.

[hollysmom]

1. I would say two kinds of debts - yours and mine.

Conservatives seem to think like this

[merrily]

41. Very good point.

My debt was unavoidable and necessary.

Your debt indicates overspending, failure to plan prudently and lack of personal responsibility. During a Republican Presidential debate, I will applaud and cheer the idea that an emergency room might refuse to admit you.

[ljm2002]

2. That would make an excellent letter to the editor...

...somewhere, as it explains very clearly and succinctly what has been happening with national spending over the last 30 and more years.

K&R

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Thanks for the idea.

I'll tune it up a little & send it off to the local paper. I have just about a 100% track record with them. (Only once in 20 years did they decline to print one of my submissions, and that was because they didn't like my format, which was that of an open letter to a politician.)

[hfojvt]

44. except, once again, I would say it buys in to Republican Spin

the spin that says - debt only comes from spending.

No, there is a third kind of debt - one caused by "giving up your income".

Debt, after all, comes about when expenses are greater than revenue. Clearly some debt can be caused by - reducing the amount of revenue you take in, and not just by either spending or investing too much.

When I taught macroeconomics back in the late 1980s, the formulation from the textbook (written by the conservative Campbell McConnell, who was a professor at Nebraska where I went to graduate school) was that at that time our National Debt had three basic causes
1. wars
2. recessions
3. tax cuts

wars are on the spending side
recessions impact both spending (increasing it as the number of people in need of help increases) and revenue (decreasing it as the number of employed people paying taxes is less).
tax cuts were mostly a post-Reagan phenomenon, at least tax cuts large enough to cause significant debt accumulation.

And, of course, George W. Bush gave us the trifecta.

[Jackpine Radical]

48. Your points are obviously valid.

Last edited Thu Oct 24, 2013, 10:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Sometimes, though, it's best to stay with a few simpler ideas, especially in the context of a letter to the editor, as people suggested and as I have done with this post.

[Jackpine Radical]

49. Here is the revised version of this little essay that I submitted as an LTTE.

Now that the Tea Party-inspired hostage crisis in government is over with, the next battle we're going to be hearing about will revolve around the national debt, and the deficit spending from which the debt arises. Before anyone starts throwing bombs over the issue, it would be well to review a couple of simple facts.

There are essentially two kinds of debt (or maybe more accurately, two poles on the debt spectrum).

One kind of debt occurs when you borrow a lot of money to take all your rowdy friends on a year-long binge and casino tour.

On a national level, this equates to going into the hole while building a military you don't need, fighting stupid wars, pouring Treasury money into bonuses for the bankers who already pocketed billions while gambling away your inheritance, and so on.

The other kind of debt is where you borrow money to improve your house, get an education, and fix your car so you can get to work.

On a national level, this would equate to borrowing in order to put people to work building a 21st-century infrastructure that includes a high-speed transcontinental rail system, providing the whole country with broadband Internet access, building a green energy network, setting up a true national health system, and similar things that will result in improving people's lives and healing the planet.

Conservatives typically favor the former kind of debt, and progressives, the latter kind.

Conservatives have for decades played a game of indulging in unfunded spending binges when in power, and then using the debt they run up with nothing to show for it as an excuse to prevent the progressives from creating the second kind of debt, the kind that advances our national well-being.

And I'm getting really fed up with this stupid game.

[Th1onein]

3. Dayum, Jackpine Radical! That's a very fine post you've created there!

Someone else suggested it would make a great letter to an editor. I wholeheartedly agree.

[gopiscrap]

4. exactly

[daleanime]

6. Kick....

Nice job!

[NYC_SKP]

7. K/R. One is investment and elevates all of us, the other is hookers and blow and is wasteful, sad.

We need only ask "how will this debt impact my grandchildren" as our guide.

[Dragonfli]

8. 7th Generation thinking, I like it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_generation_sustainability

Great Law of the Iroquois - which holds appropriate to think seven generations ahead (about 140 years into the future) and decide whether the decisions they make today would benefit their children seven generations into the future.
"In every deliberation, we must consider the impact on the seventh generation... even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine." This is an often repeated saying, and most who use it claim that it comes from “The Constitution of the Iroquois Nations: The Great Binding Law.”

[NYC_SKP]

9. I love that, hadn't heard of it before now, thank you!

[Dragonfli]

10. I live in WNY where the Iroquois and some of their thought is known better than in many other areas

In the early nineties I did some work with a band called Gary Storm and the 7th Generation. He taught me about the concept. Most of the songs were about environmental and war based threats to the future survival of all of us, so the name made sense to me.

The music was way cool and experimental as well.

I miss Gary and Linda..

[NYC_SKP]

13. It should be incorporated into the oath taken by members of congress and other electeds.

Thanks again!

[BelgianMadCow]

17. Thanks for that reference

So much of what is wrong today is because of short-termism.

[Tikki]

24. Well that has brought a tear to my eye...though Sioux, not Iroquois, my grandfather..

would say something very similar.

Maybe it is time for a Native American legislator at the top.



Tikki

[hue]

32. I love this!! Thanks for posting this!!

[docgee]

11. K&R

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Don't worry. We're going to get at least 2 years without them, come the mid-terms.

Hopefully more.

Hope springs eternal.

[jtuck004]

14. Nice post. And look what a fine job we've done in encouraging debt for eduction.

Why, we have over $1 trillion now, and "Student Loan Defaults Surge To Highest Level In Nearly 2 Decades".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/student-loans-default_n_4019806.html

I'm not disagreeing with you, but it's more than just favoring one type of debt over another. Because at this point, having turned our lives upside down from making what we spend as a nation to borrowing and floating ourselves as nation, either type of debt leaves us beholden to the crooks and kings of finance and corporations.

And the vigorish, the juice, the interest on that is our freedom.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. I think all education ought to be free, including graduate school,

for as far as a person's interests and abilities will take them. Any "debts" incurred in the process should belong to the government, and will be amply repaid through the many benificent consequences of having an educated citizenry.

However, I was trying to write a relatively succinct post with a single point, not a comprehensive exposition of my personal philosophy.

[jtuck004]

19. Yep. n/t

[A Simple Game]

21. Perhaps if the money was used to create good paying jobs instead of bombs, the graduates

could afford to pay back their loans. They would also pay more in taxes that would reduce the deficit and extend SS liquidity. Military spending is a poor way to stimulate the economy. If it was a good stimulus we would all be millionaires by now.

Hard to do on fast food wages.

Anyway, at least the first two years should be free.

[DeSwiss]

15. Very succinct.

- And absolutely true.

K&R

[center][/center]

[tnlurker]

16. Great Job with this

[Mira]

20. PRECISELY

I've explained it many times in this way: When I spend money, borrowed or otherwise, I want to "still have it" in one way or another once it is spent.

[Yavin4]

22. The internet was a debt-funded govt. project

How'd that work out for everyone?

[Blanks]

27. That should be a phrase on a photo. Good one. eom

[Uncle Joe]

39. I believe it was an excellent investment from both an economic and democratic point of view. n/t

[uppityperson]

23. k&r and so true.

[Myrina]

25. Well stated.

n/t

[xchrom]

26. du rec.

[Turbineguy]

28. There are two kinds of conservative debt:

"I spent half on wine, women and song and the rest I spent foolishly!"

"I spent half on wars and killing people and the rest I gave to the rich!"

[Jackpine Radical]

29. Nice. (nt)

[The Wielding Truth]

30. Perfectly clear! Now, get past all the Tokyo Rose's.

[hue]

31. I'm so with You on this!! K&R!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

33. Actually, a LOT of the debt is due to tax cuts for the rich....

The Republicans claim tax cuts for the rich increase government revenue. The theory being that the rich will be able to afford to hire more people which creates more taxpayers.

Actually, it decreases government revenue. It's like going to your family and saying that your cure for the household expenses is a raise and the only way to get one is by going to your boss to ask for a pay cut. Then you use the lower income as an excuse to refuse to buy food for your kids,...but that new Magnum at the gun store is ESSENTIAL for "home security".

[Enthusiast]

34. Kicked and recommended.

Our Democratic representatives could certainly point this point this out more effectively than they have. They aren't speaking up loudly enough about the negative effects of the Iraq War and the George Bush presidency.

[Aldo Leopold]

35. Insightful, accurate, and concise.

Thanks, Jackpine!

[ReRe]

36. K&R

Totally agree with you, JR. Conservatives leave a giant mess, and Democrats have to get back in there and clean it up. Only as time has passed, each time they get into office they make a bigger mess. The current mess is the worst this country has seen, taking us back to the Great Depression.

[ms liberty]

37. This thread just rocks the house; thanks!

It exemplifies the best of DU...and it has so many great frames to be used in the coming fight to get the sanity back in our government. Bookmarking. Editing to add that reading your original post Jackpine, I was struck by how well your analogy rebuts (on several levels) the kitchen table analogy the RWNJ's have been depending upon all this time. It not only puts our debt and the needed spending in perspective, it makes them look like irresponsible fools.

[Uncle Joe]

38. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Jackpine Radical.

[snowdancer76]

40. Exactly! !!

Thanks for "telling it like it REALLY is".

[sabrina 1]

42. Good post. Another thing about borrowing, when you get into

debt, you have to pay it back.

But if you are the kind who borrows to go on a binge, you are more likely to try to avoid paying it back.

The binge borrowers in our Government are trying very hard not to have to pay back the money they borrowed from The People's Retirement Fund.

And hard as it is to believe, there are a few people who are enabling them.

[grahamhgreen]

43. Oooooh la la! Need this repeated at the State of the Nation.

[dkf]

45. You forgot the 3rd kind of debt where you borrow to pay back your earlier debt.

That is debt resulting from being in debt to your eyeballs and being a fiscal mess.

Compounding the problem is being so much in debt and projecting a deficit as far as the eye can see which results in never ending requests to increase your credit limit.

At that point it doesn't matter what kind of debt got you there.

[99th_Monkey]

46. GOP "game of indulging in spending binges when in power,

and then using the debt they run up as an excuse" .. to preach
"austerity" so Dems have hands tied when they are in office.

THIS ^ IS ^ A ^ BRILLIANT ^ OBSERVATION

And totally accurate imho. Thank you.

[raouldukelives]

47. K&R It is treated like a game by multinational corporations.

Those who have no skin in the game. Other than assuring our elected officials are beholden to their interests above all others.
With the assistance of Wall St workers & backers, they won't run out of cash to make sure it never changes.

I do think we are facing a third kind of debt however. Or that is to say, our grandchildren are. An environmental one.
Everyone seems to worry about leaving them a paid off house. But what good is that house when the heater can't be shut off, the water is running out and the only thing keeping the yard green is plastic grass.
The only debt that will matter to them is the one they can never repay.

[Jackpine Radical]

53. I agree entirely.

I did suggest that we need to spend now in order to have a survivable future, but (especially now that &'ve made an LTTE out of it) I think it's best to avoid trying to include the whole shopping list.

[MadLinguist]

50. Don't forget that W's War Debt didn't even go on the books as debt til his ass was gone

Nobody even talks anymore about how spending on Iraq just did not go into the publicly acknowledged budget for all those years.
When the invisible expenditures "suddenly" became visible, the debt was suddenly lots bigger. Who nose what all went onto that slushy fundy boon-doggel. I always figured that W's tax cuts were whitewashed by stuffing unacknowledged spending onto that invisible ledger. Congress, investigate that, muthah fuckahs.

[JayhawkSD]

51. I know I will get flamed, but that's not supported by facts.

Name one progressive politician who has proposed any one of the things you claim progressives favor, because no one has proposed actually doing any of those things. Some high speed rail was included in the laughably named “stimulus bill” of 2009, but not enough to complete any one intercity project, and certainly there was no pretense of even beginning a transcontinental one.

On the other hand, the Democratic Congress of 2007-2011 not only continued military spending unabated, it funded increased spending for the “surge” in Iraq and it passed TARP to bail out the banks. I can’t say that Treasury money went into the bonuses for bankers, because Congress did specify that TARP money could not be used for that purpose.

It was a Republican Congress, on the other hand, the passed Medicare Part D. Too much unfunded liability, and it didn't help as much as it should, but it was neither needlass war nor enrichment of bankers and it did help people.

As for using the bad kind of debt to prevent progressives from creating the good kind of debt, they don’t have to do that because in all the years I have been following politics I have never seen a politician suggest doing any one of the things you suggest that good debt would do.

You don’t have to stop someone from doing what they aren’t trying to do.

Or maybe the Democratic Party is not progressive, and is actually a conservative party in disguise.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. Don't confuse "Democrats" with "Progressives."

Your last sentence has far too much of reality in it.

[JayhawkSD]

54. Well, okay then

But what's the point, then, of the constant refrain of "We have to elect Democrats" and "We have to put Democrats in control of Congress" that is chanted by, um, "progressives?"

[Jackpine Radical]

55. You didn't hear that here.

I work for Progressives, and sometimes have to vote for Democrats who are far more conservative than I would like.

As a matter of fact, I used the word "Progressives"in stead of Democrats in the OP for the very reason you're bringing up here.

[JayhawkSD]

56. Slight change of subject

I see the Wisconsin label. I lived in Milwaukee for nine years. Great city, and awesome people. I worked for Allis Chalmers in West Allis as a maintenance electrician.

I'm originally from Arizona and New Mexico, and working in a manufacturing plant in the winters was brutal for me. They kept telling me I'd get used to the winters, but after nine years I was not even beginning to get used to them and I finally moved back to where winters are survivable.

But I still like the Packers, and have very fond memories of Milwaukee.

[Jackpine Radical]

57. I lived a couple of years in Milwaukee, then in Superior.

Moved from Superior to Eau Claire/Chippewa Falls more than 25 years ago. Told people it was for the climate.

[TheJames]

58. K & R; What he said. n/t