If Obama Didn't Know About Merkel Spying, What Was It For? Juan Cole

[KoKo]

The NSA denies president was briefed on decade-long surveillance on German chancellor, but that denial raises new questions

As historian Juan Cole points out,however, the claims that Obama was not fully aware of the surveillance—if accurate—creates a new problem for the Obama administration. Saying that many pundits and political observers in Washington treat the NSA scandal as an inside-the-Beltway power squabble, writes Cole, few people are asking what the "implications are that an occult intelligence bureaucracy funded at $52 billion a year by your and my tax dollars keeps our elected leaders in the dark about its activities."

He continues:

Among the founding principles of the United States was “no taxation without representation.” But the NSA appears to be a secret kingdom that appropriates our money with no oversight or accountability. We didn’t elect it, and if it doesn’t let our chosen representatives know what it is up to, than it is taxing us without giving us any representation. It is a tyrant. It is an ominous homunculus within the body politic.
Secrecy is anathema to a democratic republic. If we ever had one, it is long gone. The only real question left is what the unelected fourth branch of government, created inadvertently by Harry Truman, is really up to. It is clearly involved in a great deal of industrial espionage, but how are its discoveries transferred to US corporations? Who do the mostly right wing NSA bureaucrats really report to if not to Obama? And, what are they really doing with our cell phone records, which reveal to whom we speak, how often, and where exactly we are? How are these being data-mined and for what purposes

- Jon Queally, staff writer
Published on Monday, October 28, 2013 by Common Dreams

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/10/28

[Zen Democrat]

1. Ever notice that the military runs the NSA? And always has.

I remember what Eisenhower said in his farewell address after he wasn't told that U2 planes were spying over the Soviet Union until the Francis Gary Powers fiasco.

JFK didn't know that the Diem's were going to be assassinated by the CIA. His tapes prove that.

Presidents aren't in control anymore. The military elite are -- probably since General LeMay and General Lansdale plotted with the CIA to murder the President in 1963. Eisenhower's warning about the military industrial complex wasn't in his written speech, it was added when he went live.

It is time to clean house, which I think Obama is working on. Notice how many generals he has relieved of command lately? It began days after his reelection with Petraeus at CIA, through a housecleaning at the nuclear facilities, and now Alexander at NSA.

I laugh to recall that General Hayden asked Obama to keep him in his position -- which Obama rejected. Now the asshat is talking on trains about Obama's Blackberry ..... hmmmm.

[Taverner]

9. ^--------------^----------- What he said

Except the JFK conspiracy bit

There was no conspiracy - a second gunman does not indicate a conspiracy

HOWEVER, the NSA, CIA and KGB all worked VERY hard to make people think the military was behind it

After all, if they can commit Regicide, then they are worthy of fear. And it IS better to be feared than loved.

[KAESNO2]

21. You're kidding, right?

Of course they knew. They ordered it.

>>I remember what Eisenhower said in his farewell address after he wasn't told that U2 planes were spying over the Soviet Union until the Francis Gary Powers fiasco. JFK didn't know that the Diem's were going to be assassinated by the CIA. His tapes prove that.<<

[geek tragedy]

2. Why? Because they could nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. He is a delicate flower and can't be bothered with insignificant details like spying on other

delicate flowers...who get pissed off when they're spied on.

[Puzzledtraveller]

22. When the news is good, he gets the accolades

when the news is bad, someone else did it. What is sad is that so many actually fall for this. It's kindergarten, it's "my dog ate my homework".

[sabrina 1]

4. Pretty strong language from Juan Cole. What would be worse?

That we have rogue agencies that over rule our elected officials including the President or that our elected officials, including the President, are responsible for these egregious violations of Civil and Human Rights?

I think it is the former. Not just this President, but going back decades.

The fact that Gen. Alexander eg, wants to silence the press now should be enough to get him fired. Obviously he has a lot to cover up for and a free press is a threat to his establishment.

Why are so many Right Wingers still in charge of our Security Agencies? When we elected Dems it was to rid of the country of their vile, corrupt influences. Yet not only did many stay, more were actually appointed.

But how does any one president undo the incredible power structure that appears to have been built over decades?

One thing is for sure, it won't happen if the Press is silenced, so no thanks to Gen. Alexander's suggestion. We apparently need MORE not LESS exposure of what they have been up to.

I keep remembering Ron Wyden's words about what we know being only the tip of the iceberg and that 'if the people knew what they were doing they would be very angry'.

[spanone]

5. a rogue agency....?

a cheney creation?

perhaps dick is still in charge?

[KoKo]

23. I don't think he ever LEFT...after he showed up at Obama Swearing In

with Black Hat and in a Wheel Chair and Obama Family had to walk down steps of Capitol of US after his Swearing in as President to do a "Bow Down" to Cheney as he was hauled into his Limo to take off.

It was humiliating for Obama to have to deal with that crap from "Black Hat Cheney in Wheelchair" taking advantage of our Newly Elected Presidents BIG MOMENT.

Anyway...that Obama, Michelle had to walk down Capitol Steps to pay Homage to that War Criminal ....was the Low Point of the 2008 Election.

Obama's managed to Gracefully deal with it.. But, it was a SIGNAL of what would be COMING for them DOWN THE PIKE!

[Uncle Joe]

6. Good and profound questions from Juan Cole.

Thanks for the thread, KoKo.

[uponit7771]

7. I never had the impression that the president goes down a list of NSA projects and checks on them

..weekly or some shit.

There's a level where the minions have to be trusted

[AngryAmish]

10. President did get intel about Merkel over the years

(I'm repeating myself from another thread.)

I see three options.

As a routine matter our President did get briefed about the Chancellor's positions on various issues over the years. Before a summit or before a G8 or some other such thing.

First option:

They kept the President in the dark about what they learned by monitoring her communications. This is treason and if we don't fire everybody then there is no point in having civilians in charge anymore.

Second option:

They told the President but he was incurious about how they collected intimate knowledge of her plans. THis is also problematic because...well, for example, Bush was incurious about the intel running up to Iraq. This is unlikely.

Third option:

They told her about her plans and lied about how they collected the information. This seems most likely but again is problematic because this means we still have a rouge intelligence community. This appears to be the WHite House position,

No matter what, this is really, really bad.

[hugo_from_TN]

16. fourth option

They told the president how the information was collected.

[jmowreader]

17. Fourth option: sanitization

When you are taught reporting, you learn how to write in a way that disguises how you collected the information.

Easy example: Joseph Kony and 40 followers moved from Kampala to Entebbe, arriving at 0600. CIA found out from doubled agents in the Lord's Resistance Army, NSA listened to his cell phone traffic and the National Reconnaissance Office used an electrooptical satellite to watch the move. All three agencies would write "Lord's Resistance Army chief Joseph Kony and approximately 40 followers traveled from Kampala, Uganda, to Entebbe, Uganda on October 28, 2013. Movement was completed by 0600Z."

[riderinthestorm]

8. Just breathtaking.

*shakes head*

I just don't know what to say anymore. So many implications and none of them good.

Wonder if the Snowden haters will ever understand what a deep debt our DEMOCRACY owes him.

BIG K&R

[GliderGuider]

13. A deep debt indeed - my thought exactly.

This scandal has nothing to do with Snowden's moral character, and not much to do with the targets of the programs he revealed. He has shown us far more than just some details about the NSA's trawling techniques. He's torn back the curtain and revealed the un-elected shadow government of the nation - the cockroaches hiding behind the baseboards. Two of them are named Clapper and Alexander...

[woo me with science]

27. [phone]

[Blue Owl]

11. GWB's secret operation: "Shallow Tissue"

<>

[bluestate10]

12. I am guessing economic. Merkel was being a pain in the ass with Greek debt

re-financing. A bad decision by her could have fucked up all of Europe and hurt the USA badly in the process.

[randome]

14. A good guess, even if we never know.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[KoKo]

20. But does that allow us to defy International Agreements to Spy on her?

even before she was the official Candidate and just running up until just recently?

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. And the academy award for headlines goes to...

"What was it for" indeed.

[RobinA]

18. I've Been Wondering

"what was it for" ever since I first heard about this. Whether Obama knew or not, why are we spying on Germany? This isn't 1939.

[treestar]

29. +1

Why spy on her? Was there something to be gotten out of it?

Sounds like maybe it was routine and just went on? Obviously we would have spied on them in the 1940 and 50s and it could have just gone on without thought for why we were doing it.

[riderinthestorm]

19. pm kick. nt

[gulliver]

24. Plausible deniability.

Cole is an imbecile.

[RBInMaine]

25. It started under Bush before Obama was in office. Don't forget that.

[liberal N proud]

26. I think the NSA has assumed they can spy on anyone

Without cause because they have the ability.

The have made themselves the most powerful organization in government.

[KoKo]

28. And Run by a General to be replaced by an Admiral. Military running

our Civilian Programs. I thought that was a "no..no?"

Plus they take over for CIA/FBI and are under the Military to do whatever the heck they want to.

Something is not working the way we Americans thought our Government was supposed to work.

But...then. We are just the peasants. What do we know.