24 years ago today, these women were targeted and murdered in the ecole polytechnique massacre

[niyad]

(murdred by a man who said he did it because he "hated feminists"


Victims

Geneviève Bergeron (born 1968), civil engineering student
Hélène Colgan (born 1966), mechanical engineering student
Nathalie Croteau (born 1966), mechanical engineering student
Barbara Daigneault (born 1967), mechanical engineering student
Anne-Marie Edward (born 1968), chemical engineering student
Maud Haviernick (born 1960), materials engineering student
Maryse Laganière (born 1964), budget clerk in the École Polytechnique's finance department
Maryse Leclair (born 1966), materials engineering student
Anne-Marie Lemay (born 1967), mechanical engineering student
Sonia Pelletier (born 1961), mechanical engineering student
Michèle Richard (born 1968), materials engineering student
Annie St-Arneault (born 1966), mechanical engineering student
Annie Turcotte (born 1969), materials engineering student
Barbara Klucznik-Widajewicz (born 1958), nursing student

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

[NoOneMan]

1. Sad and tragic act by a crazy lone wolf

Societies need better mental health care, gun control and protection in such places

[nomorenomore08]

41. But even "lone wolves" are influenced by the ideas and attitudes of others.

In Adam Lanza's case, it was most likely gun fanaticism and an apocalyptic "prepper" mentality.

In Marc Lepine's case, it was hatred of women, most likely indoctrinated in large part by his abusive, domineering father.

[NoOneMan]

55. "most likely indoctrinated in large part by his abusive, domineering father"

That's basically how I see it, although many people are potentially influenced in the same manner (so for it to manifest the way it did might suggest there was something exceptionally malevolent and unusual in his brain as well).

[nomorenomore08]

59. Yeah, we'll probably never know just what it is that makes a particular individual "go off"

when there are plenty of others with similar ideas out there, who never carry out such an act. Still, I tend to look at individual pathology as a microcosm of cultural pathology.

[xulamaude]

2. More women's names to remember:

Gloria Davy, Patricia Matusek, Nina Jo Schmale, Pamela Wilkening, Suzanne Farris, Mary Ann Jordan, Merlita Gargullo, Valentina Pasion

All nursing students murdered in their own home by one man. 1966.

[niyad]

3. yes, of course. but, according to some here today, this is not about hatred for, and a war on,

women.

I guess they need to believe that if they say it often enough, loud enough, people might actually believe it, because they cannot face the other possibility.

[xulamaude]

4. More women's names to remember (2):

Victoria Buzzo. Michele Daschbach Fast, Michelle Marie Fournier, Lucia Bernice Kondas, Laura Webb, Christy Lynn Wilson, Hattie Stretz

Some were workers, others customers and were murdered at a local business by one man seeking custody of a child. 2011

[niyad]

20. thank you for honouring them

[NoOneMan]

5. Newtown was not about hatred for, and a war on, children

It was about a crazy nut in a society that wouldn't fix him or keep people safe from him

[redqueen]

9. Wow. I'll say it here, too, since you're spamming these threads with your nonsense.

Did the murderer in Newton separate the children from the adults, and murder only children?

This isn't complicated. It isn't difficult to understand how these murders are unique.

You know exactly what you're doing.

Your shamelessly transparent effort to derail these discussions is DISGUSTING.

[NoOneMan]

16. Spamming?

This is niyad 4th thread I counted on this subject alone with the same unsupported assertions.

Did the murderer in Newton separate the children from the adults, and murder only children?

If he wasn't targeting children, he wouldn't have started in an elementary school classroom.

It isn't difficult to understand how these murders are unique

Yes. But no, I do not think they are part of some grand, organized War on Women

You know exactly what you're doing.

Your shamelessly transparent effort to derail these discussions is DISGUSTING.

I'm just dispelling nonsense. Its a sad and tragic event. Humanity loses a piece of itself when these things happen. Its also sad to see these women's death used to make some big idealogical point. They were real people.

Im not sure what you mean by derailing a discussion. I am discussing and responding to posts. Is any discussion that you don't condone labeled as derailing?

[nomorenomore08]

39. The "war on women" doesn't have to be entirely literal to be a legitimate concern.

I think you're kind of getting hung up on semantics here.

[niyad]

46. no, the people who consistently insist that there is NO war on women know damn well there is.

they simply hope to derail us pointing this out, by hijacking any and all attempts to study, talk about, and deal with the reality of the way women are treated in this world, and by whom. we see it every single day.

the truth is, apparently, too uncomfortable, too threatening, to deal with.

[nomorenomore08]

48. Or else their worldview is so narrow that they simply can't think beyond themselves...

I don't know, honestly, if it's ignorance or malice. I suspect most likely a bit of both.

[niyad]

49. I would like to hope ignorance, for which there might, at least, be some excuse, because malice

is depressing, to say the least.

[nomorenomore08]

50. Absolutely. Hard for me to face how many people truly don't give a flying fuck about others.

[NoOneMan]

56. I didn't say there wasn't a war on women

I just dont think this lone act of an abused, disturbed young man with a fucked up childhood was part of a larger social and cultural movement, anymore than it was his own personal war in that fucked up brain.

[xulamaude]

51. Yeah, I'll agree with the "you know what

you're doing" take on your tactless (to say the least) intrusion upon a thread which simply tried to remember the women murdered because they were women attending university. You know, minding their own effing business.

Sad.

[NoOneMan]

57. Is what I am doing, in your perception, part of the grand War on Women?

Look, I just replied to comment that I thought was unfounded. No need to perceive it as anything more than that. I don't mean to cause any grand offense. I do believe that if someone wants to approach the conversation of a "War on Women" that there are much finer, non-contentious examples than this particular tragic event.

[xulamaude]

64. "much finer, non-contentious examples"

Not nice enough? We heard you and responded.

Man.

[niyad]

66. wow, so, apparently, we need to consult with his finer sensibilities before we post anything about

the war on women, eh? how silly of me not to realize we need to consult with the poster as to exactly what we may post on a given subject.

I wonder if that tack works for the poster in the physical world?

[xulamaude]

68. In the real world? Possibly -

There are real life scenarios in which men feel entitled to 'guide' women in a subject he clearly knows nothing about.

My neighbor has 3 such grown men/sons living in her home right now. She does everything for them - she even goes out to buy beer for them at 6 in the morning because they've been busy 'gaming' - yet they tell her what to do and how to do it.

Go figure.

[niyad]

79. and we all know that I am exactly the kind of woman your neighbor is!!

[xulamaude]

85. Nah, I kinda think you are nothing like her

because you truly listened to the truths that women tell. And trusted them.

(I love my neighbor - I wish she were able to be just... herself. )

[NoOneMan]

72. If you want to be taken seriously, yes, that helps

[seabeyond]

75. wow. can you get any more typically sexist. watch your tone. address gently. stroke

the ego while talking about womens issues. you know, death of women. lower eyes. timid. always, be timid. as if merely offering a suggestion

vomit

[niyad]

78. the REAL problem is, we don't take THEM seriously.

[gollygee]

83. If we want to be taken seriously by whom?

[gollygee]

84. It is part of the war on women

If right wing hate radio goes on and on about "feminazis" and riles up hate in people as much as they do - and that is a direct attack on women - then people on the edge are going to take that to an extreme. The fact that this man was on the edge doesn't nullify the fact that he got his hate from somewhere.

[AuntFester]

15. Says who, tough guy?

[NoOneMan]

17. So Newtown was about, associated with, or part of a "war on children"?

Do you believe that if our society did not condone violence against children (and no, I don't think it currently does), then Newton would not have happen

[BlueToTheBone]

82. I think he felt so powerless that the only

ones he could have power over were small children. The old "sh*t rolls downhill" Killing his mother showed "a bit of rage" there too. Real hatred and small and powerless and psychotic. Strictly a bad combo, imho

[etherealtruth]

24. How is your post even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand?

9-11 was associated with a group of nut cases ... true, but not at all relevant to the discussion.

[NoOneMan]

27. If I understand to grand logic here

(And no, I don't mean to create a strawman...)

A lone wolf shooting targeting a specific group (women in this example) is evidence of a larger social war on that group, and somehow associated with it. If society did not condone or accept such violence against the targeted group, the event would not have happened.

I mention Newtown as a counter-example because this is a event that happen even in the absence of any acceptable violence or widespread hate against the targets (children). It happened anyway, because the shooter was a nut.

There is simply no evidence that this event happened because of how society treats or views women. It happened because of how this nut viewed women.

The shooter's mom was a self-describe feminist who left him as a young child, due to an abusive, controlling father who wouldn't so much as allow the boy to be held and comforted as a baby. This appears to be an isolated incidence of a fucked up childhood and mental instability giving a person severe mommy and daddy issues. Despite what society felt, condoned, or accepted, this was his own little specific personal war from a screwed up brain made from a screwed up childhood.

[etherealtruth]

34. The appearance of your post is that its intent was deflect the focus and derail the conversation

Ita a very effective tactic ... if done correctly. Yet this post went on

[NoOneMan]

35. Derail what conversation?

This is a conversation. Is it just not the one you want? Is that the problem? Do you want everyone to agree with you or shutup?

[nomorenomore08]

42. So individual and cultural pathologies are mutually exclusive? I just don't see that at all...

[NoOneMan]

54. No. Not at all. But they are not always intertwined

This was the case--where from most everything we know--a monster was created by an abusive father who drove the mother away; we can only imagine what the father brainwashed this kid with for the next 14 years of his life. I think it is interesting to note though that his mother was a self-identified "feminist". If she was a farmer, would he have grown up hating all farmers, and targeting them for mistakenly being the source of all his issues? We will never know I guess.

[nomorenomore08]

58. Just saying, he was probably influenced both by his father *and* by misogynistic ideas within

the larger culture. Hence the "not mutually exclusive" part.

Honestly, the fact that his mother was a feminist is probably largely incidental. After all, he didn't target her personally, did he?

[NoOneMan]

60. Its entirely possible...

But not provable (or attempted to be proven). And certainly his actions seem to be more of an exception than a rule for people exposed to such ideas if our whole society is (and his childhood was incredibly exceptional).

Honestly, the fact that his mother was a feminist is probably largely incidental. After all, he didn't target her personally, did he?

I'm not a psychologist. But I can't help but wonder how incidental it is, and what trash his father fed to him due precisely to that.

Frankly, at the end of the day we just don't know. That's why making such a claim is a little ridiculous. We do know that early intervention sucks. Mental healthcare is often inadequate. Access to firearms is too easy. As a society, we don't treat hardly anyone with respect nor value life. We do know that stuff.

[nomorenomore08]

63. "Mental healthcare is often inadequate. Access to firearms is too easy. As a society...

we don't... value life." Yes, I believe all of those things and more are at work here. Though plenty of men out there, far too many, truly do hate women, even if not to the murderous extent Lepine did.

[seabeyond]

69. you do get, a massive number of women are beaten, raped and murdered by a whole lot of men, right?

[NoOneMan]

70. Yes.

[seabeyond]

71. not to mention sexually ahrassed in the street and at work. controlled and dominated thru out

the world.

i do not know how in your mind with all that you can isolte this into one event of a .... meh, who knows.

certainly not looking at the big picture. you are not even looking at it in a square block

[NoOneMan]

74. Yes again

I also understand that this guy was still an exceptionally unstable nut with a fucked up childhood and a broken home. That could have manifested in a hundred different terrible ways, or none at all.

[seabeyond]

76. he hated women. made clear he hated women. he took that hate out on women. that. is. the. point.

[NoOneMan]

77. Yes

I agree. That wasn't the point I was responding to

[seabeyond]

67. happens with a whole lot of indiviuals taught hate in their environment, that amounts to a whole,

you know.

that whole creates... thru the conditioning

[niyad]

29. don't you know, we are not allowed to point out the war on women-there always has to be some

OTHER reason that these men commit the acts that they do. we HAVE to be told, and be made to believe, that these are random acts of lone wolfs, nut cases, etc, because facing the reality of the blatant hatred for women exhibited at every level everywhere, is just too damned uncomfortable.

besides, how DARE we focus on issues that are of concern to us????

[etherealtruth]

33. I apologize ... as a woman I forget ....

.... that pointing out sexism (great and small) is verboten

[niyad]

36. how can you possibly forget, when it is pointed out to us each and every day, including in threads

Last edited Sat Dec 7, 2013, 09:05 PM - Edit history (1)

all over DU?

see post 57, for example.

[redqueen]

6. A few more

Heidi Overmier, 46, of Carnegie, a sales manager at an amusement park
Jody Billingsley, 37, of Mount Lebanon, who worked for a medical-supply company
Elizabeth Gannon, 49, of Pittsburgh, an X-ray technician at Allegheny General Hospital

Murdered by a man who hated women because he couldn't get a girlfriend.

[xulamaude]

7. More women's names to remember (3):

Wendy Lee Coffield, Gisele Ann Lovvorn, Debra Lynn Bonner, Marcia Fay Chapman, Cynthia Jean Hinds, Opal Charmaine Mills, Terry Rene Milligan, Mary Bridget Meehan, Debra Lorraine Estes, Linda Jane Rule, Denise Darcel Bush, Shawnda Leea Summers, Shirley Marie Sherrill, Rebecca "Becky" Marrero, Colleen Renee Brockman, Sandra Denise Major, Alma Ann Smith, Delores LaVerne Williams, Gail Lynn Mathews, Andrea M. Childers, Sandra Kay Gabbert, Kimi-Kai Pitsor, Marie M. Malvar, Carol Ann Christensen, Martina Theresa Authorlee, Cheryl Lee Wims, Yvonne "Shelly" Antosh, Carrie Ann Rois, Constance Elizabeth Naon, Kelly Marie Ware, Tina Marie Thompson, April Dawn Buttram, Debbie May Abernathy, Tracy Ann Winston, Maureen Sue Feeney, Mary Sue Bello, Pammy Annette Avent, Delise Louise Plager, Kimberly L. Nelson, Lisa Yates, Mary Exzetta West, Cindy Anne Smith, Patricia Michelle Barczak, Roberta Joseph Hayes, Marta Reeves, Patricia Yellowrobe, and three other unidentified females.

Girls and women ranging in age from 15 to 38 murdered by one man because they were female. 1982 -1998

[niyad]

22. thank you for honouring them

[niyad]

21. thank you for honouring them

[Demeter]

8. .

[riverbendviewgal]

10. never to be forgotten

[smirkymonkey]

11. +1000

Very sad.

[Blue_In_AK]

12. Here are some more

Raped and killed because Robert Hansen, the "butcher baker" thought prostitutes didn't deserve to live (and not all of these women were prostitutes).

Robert C. Hansen raped and assaulted over 30 Alaskan women. He is responsible for the murder of at least 17, ranging in age from 16 to 41. They were:

Lisa Futrell, 41 (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Malai Larsen, 28 (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Unknown Jane Doe (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Sue Luna, 23 (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Tami Pederson, 20 (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Angela Feddern, 24 (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Teresa Watson (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
DeLynn "Sugar" Frey (acknowledged, body found with Hansen's help)
Paula Goulding (acknowledged, body found)
Andrea "Fish" Altiery (admitted, body found with Hansen's help)
Sherry Morrow, 23 (admitted, body found)
"Eklutna Annie" (admitted, body found)
Joanna Messina (admitted, body found)
Roxanne Easland, 24 (acknowledged, body not found)
Ceilia "Beth" Van Zanten, 17 (denies, but suspected because of x on aviation map, body found)
Megan Emerick, 17 (denies, but suspected because of x on aviation map, body not found)
Mary Thill, 23 (denies, but suspected because of x on aviation map, body not found)

[niyad]

23. thank you for honouring them

[Blue_In_AK]

26. One of these women, Sherry Morrow, if I remember right,

was the aunt of a friend of mine. Bob Hansen is a bad, bad man. He would take these women out into the Bush on his airplane, turn them loose and then hunt them like animals. (John Cusack and Nicolas Cage are in a movie about his capture called The Frozen Ground that was filmed up here a couple of years ago. )

[niyad]

28. thank you for sharing this with us. had never heard of this, or of the movie.

[Blue_In_AK]

30. It didn't receive very high distribution for some reason

and pretty quickly went to DVD and On Demand. I personally haven't seen the movie yet, so I can't vouch for how good it is, but it did get some decent reviews. What makes it unusual is that it was actually filmed on location here in Southcentral Alaska, not BC or Washington, and a lot of locals appear in it. It was kind of a big deal for us having the Hollywood types around. John Cusack, especially, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with people here, went on Shannyn Moore's radio show, etc.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2005374/

[niyad]

32. will have to see if my library can get it.

[Tien1985]

13. K&r

[MisterP]

14. the Unabomber, too

[xocet]

18. FYI

Maclean’s Interview: Monique Lépine

Monique Lépine talks with Kate Fillion about shame, guilt and living with the fact that her son killed 14 women

October 22, 2008 |

Q: Let’s start on the evening of Dec. 6, 1989, when you first heard there had been shootings at the École Polytechnique in Montreal.

A: I came back from work and turned on the TV, like always, before going to my prayer meeting. I saw this news and I was in shock, like everybody else. Nothing like this ever happened here, in the province of Quebec, in a university. I thought it was terrible, a horrible tragedy. I went to my prayer meeting and I was moved to ask for prayers for the [gunman’s] mother, not knowing it would turn out that I was the mother.

Q: How did you find out that you were?

A: The next day, I was at a conference, so nobody was able to find me. Afterwards, I went to work to make some photocopies, and I saw everybody still there, at 6 at night, and there was a lot of turmoil. I wondered, What’s happening? My [boss] saw me and said, “Go to your office, I need to speak to you.” I thought he sounded angry, but now I think he just didn’t know how to tell me. I went to my office to wait for him and I had a lot of messages, including one from a close friend who never called me at work before, so I returned that and heard these words: “The crazy shooter from the Polytechnique was Marc.” I said, “What?!” and at that very moment I saw my [boss] walking toward me and I understood that he was to tell me my son was the killer.

...

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20081022_87668_87668

[niyad]

25. thank you for sharing this

[PassingFair]

31. Maybe it's the language gap, but she sounds odd and disconnected.

I wouldn't trust anything she says.

[niyad]

37. what language gap? and on what basis do you not trust her?

[nomorenomore08]

44. Maybe she's still not able to fully deal with it, emotionally...

[niyad]

47. perhaps not. but I am curious about what, in that interview, causes the poster not to trust her.

also wondering why the question of trust even arises.

[xulamaude]

52. Because everyone knows women LIE -

and make things up and tell stories and LIE, right?!?!

[niyad]

62. of course, how silly of me to have forgotten (does the fact that it is minus 5 degrees here count?)

[nomorenomore08]

45. Jeez, that is heavy... Thanks for the article though.

[NutmegYankee]

19. 20th anniversary of the Long Island railroad massacre

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/20-years-after-the-long-island-rail-road-massacre/2013/12/06/c028285c-5e45-11e3-8d24-31c016b976b2_story.html

MINEOLA, N.Y. — Before Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora and Newtown, there was the Long Island Rail Road.

On Dec. 7, 1993, a gunman opened fire on a train car filled with commuters leaving New York City. By the time passengers tackled Colin Ferguson, his fusillade had left six people dead and 19 wounded.

Though other massacres have far superseded it in terms of casualties, there are aspects of the railcar shooting that, even two decades later, make it stand out in the sad pantheon of rampages that have horrified the nation.

“In a mall or a school or a movie theater, there is at least some opportunity for hiding or escaping,” said James Alan Fox, a criminology professor at Northeastern University in Boston. “These people had nowhere to go.”

[nomorenomore08]

73. Would you consider making a separate OP about that one? I think it's worth commemorating.

[seabeyond]

38. rampant hate toward women, especially feminists that speak up and out for women is evident

thru out the world. there is no arguing that. yet, we consistently have our men on du work so very very hard to quiet a woman, feminists voice.

[niyad]

40. they can keep working hard, but they will not succeed.

[mstinamotorcity2]

43. My love for their

families. No matter how many years go by nothing takes the sting away of losing someone you love that tragically.

[smirkymonkey]

53. +1000

[GliderGuider]

61. Fourteen candles in the darkness.

[historylovr]

65. K & R

[liberalmuse]

80. I hadn't heard of this.

I guess there are too many over the years to keep up with.

Tip: The "ignore" feature is amazing for cleaning up the garbage littering some of these threads.

[niyad]

81. that is true, but then, I would deprive myself of all the chuckles, wouldn't I?