Two Cheers for E-Cigarettes

[jtuck004]

By JOE NOCERA

Imagine a product — a legal but lethal one — that kills 400,000 Americans a year. Public health advocates have been trying for decades to persuade Americans not to use it. The industry has been sued and sued again, but it is still operating profitably. One out of every five Americans is addicted to the product. Now imagine that an alternative comes to the market, an innovative device that can help people wean themselves from the deadly product. It has the same look and feel as the lethal product; indeed, that’s a large part of its appeal. It, too, is addictive. But the ingredients that kill people are absent.

You’d think that the public health community would be cheering at the introduction of electronic cigarettes. We all know how hard it is to quit smoking. We also know that nicotine replacement therapies, like the patch, haven’t worked especially well. The electronic cigarette is the first harm-reduction product to gain serious traction among American smokers.

Yet the public health community is not cheering. Far from it: groups like the American Lung Association, the American Heart Association and the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids are united in their opposition to e-cigarettes. They want to see them stigmatized — like tobacco cigarettes. They want to see them regulated like cigarettes, too, which essentially means limited marketing and a ban on their use wherever tobacco cigarettes are banned.
...
Another person who considers e-cigarettes promising is David Abrams, the executive director of the Schroeder Institute for Tobacco Research and Policy Studies. “It’s a disruptive technology,” he said, “that might give cigarettes a run for their money.” In his view, the anti-tobacco advocates had spent so many years arguing from “a total abstinence framework,” that they haven’t been able to move from that position. Yet, he noted, the country has long tolerated many similar harm reduction strategies, including needle exchanges and methadone maintenance.
...

Here.

I'll make that three cheers.

I get the whole "smoking is bad, I've always been agin' it, I'm agin' this too" schtick. It's hard to evolve one's thinking -ask any racist, homophobe, anti-drug activist, or Teabagger.

But the facts are that the vast majority of people taking up vaping are those who smoke cigarettes already, and they immediately stop sucking in and spewing out the tars and carbon monoxide that cause the most harm, and replace that with vegetable glycerin (made from the stuff you cook with), propylene glycol (which is found in your cosmetics, your food, the vapor from many cars, and is even given you by your doctor to drink if you are the winning recipient of a soon-to-be-delivered colonoscopy. Lucky you.), and nicotine. Indications are that the amount of nicotine is often reduced after some period of time for many people (they do sell zero nicotine e-liquid, btw). Irregardless, the truly harmful stuff doesn't come with it.

Kids are picking them up too, and that, like any drug delivery system, needs to be looked at to see what the smart thing is to do, (feel free to try prohibiting it. That has worked so well with alcohol and pharmaceuticals, and the weed you can get from any reasonably worldly junior high kid.). I hear people suggest that vaping is a gateway, but then I hear George Carlin's voice and realize it probably started with mother's milk, so I begin to have my doubts.

In any event, I started smoking in naval boot camp over 40 years ago at the suggestion of the "drill instructor" (thanks for that, asshole). Recently I put some time into doing Internet research (I'm really good at that) and laid my weekly cigarette budget down on for an Ego-CC, a Kanger Pro mini-tank II, some batteries, and some non-nicotine e-liquid.

Big fail. I liked the taste, but kept on smoking. Didn't get why they were popular.

Then I walked into an e-cig store where Christy worked, and she sold me some e-liquid with a moderate amount of nicotine, said she had a mission in life to get people off of cigarettes. Yeah, right. But when I got home, and without conscious intent, I sat my cigarettes down on a table and went on about my life. This new e-cig is still a little clumsy and heavy, and you have to figure out how to carry it, etc. The flavors are very different than regular cigarettes, it isn't obnoxious to or making my wife cough when she catches a whiff (even though I banned myself to smoking cigs outside long ago)...

Wait a minute. It's been three damn days and those cigs are still where I laid them. Haven't even thought about them. I'll be damned.

The change in e-liquid made all the difference. (Got a combination of tobacco-flavored, and I am throwing in a few drops of coffee or mango flavor, though I am liking the coffee-flavored much more).

I haven't gone 12 hours without a cigarette in over 40 years, except for the 2 or 3 times I tried and failed to quit, whether it was cold, or with nicotine replacement, or Chantix. This is a freakin' miracle. Well, ok, I don't believe in miracles, I believe in science and real behavioral modification. My happy receptors are still getting their groove on from the nicotine, and that is why it works. But all that harmful crap in the old delivery system is no longer part of the mix.

Now that it's been near a couple of weeks, I will admit I have had a couple cigs out of the pack. More out of the dying of a 40-year habit than anything else, I think. Nasty things, now. The taste is much different, and I don't like it anymore. I sat them down again, and, frankly, I am not sure where I laid them. That's kind of cool, since I have spent so many years making damn sure I had at least two packs so I wouldn't run out.

In any event, I read his article, and I thought it made good sense. If you know someone for whom quitting has been an exercise in frustration, don't just knee-jerk pan this because of your old thinking if they consider this. It's cheaper, likely less harmful. And it might actually be a gateway, but one that lead them to quitting tobacco use.

And that's what everyone said they wanted, isn't it?

[SheilaT]

1. Maybe if I'd ever smoked I'd get the appeal of cigarettes.

But I don't. It's been nearly 50 years (1964) since the Surgeon General's report telling us all how bad cigarettes are. I honestly cannot figure out why anyone would ever have taken up smoking after that date.

But let's say you never heard of the report. Don't you notice how smokers stink? I constantly notice it. Someone goes outside to have a ciggy, honestly thinking he or she is being nice to do the smoking outside. Then they come back in and it's all I can do not to gag and make it very obvious what I think of the odor. You are not fooling anyone. Taking the smoke outside does not make you reek any less.

And the cost. Have you ever added up how much you've spent over the years? You could retire in style if you'd put the money into any sort of simple savings. Maybe the reason I can look forward to a reasonable retirement is that I didn't spend tens of thousands of dollars on something with no return, and that adversely impacts my health.

Oh, yes, the health impact. I noticed many years ago that smokers I worked with tended to have more colds and recover from them more slowly than us non smokers. Plus, of course the heart disease, the emphysema, the COPD, the lung cancer. Is it really worth it?

[Stellar]

14. Maybe if you had ever smoked...

you would know how damned difficult it is to stop such a nasty habit.

I don't think people smoked to insult your sense of smell, or thought we were getting away with anything when we stepped out side to take a smoke brake, we go outside because we were told that smoking inside was no longer allowed. What 'you' can smell on our clothes, skin and hair...in our homes is not what we can smell. In fact it is odorless to most of us that smoke.

As far as the health dangers that go along with smoking, the vast majority of us know about it already (and repeated on a regular bases by non-smokers ad nauseam)...and yes it scares the hell out of most of us. But you see, we are addicted to smoking (and probably will always be) and it's a very difficult habit to stop. Most of us try, and try, and try, again to kick this habit and hope it finally works.

I have been smoke free for two and a half years and I still get the urge to smoke periodically. When I smoked, I loved it. So I'm just trying hard to do the best I can right now.


(A once young invincible. )

[CurtEastPoint]

36. I'm on week 3 of no smoking after 40 years. Using the patch and doing well.

Yes, I get the urge but it passes. I have been using cinnamon toothpicks (WOW!) and Red Hots and it has helped immensely.

I feel better already!

I have thought of using the e-cigs but I feel like, for me, that would be just too close to the real thing and I could easily slip back.

[Stellar]

48. I like that idea of cinnamon toothpicks and redhots!

I ceased smoking 'cold turkey' two and a half years ago (after 46 years) and I have not returned to it. I didn't know they had cinnamon toothpicks and I'm gonna definitely try that. Being diabetic I probably won't try the red hot, but thanks for the ideas.

I thought about the e-cigs, but that just another thing I don't need to get hooked on, LOL!

[CurtEastPoint]

49. They have a definite bite!

I got a case but you can buy smaller portions:
http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Lix-Cinnamon-Flavored-Toothpicks/dp/B0007OVX7I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1386701802&sr=8-2&keywords=cinnamon+toothpicks

[Stellar]

56. I'm going to try it.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[SheilaT]

46. My parents smoked so I grew up with it.

I realize that smokers simply don't smell the odor themselves. More to the point, they have absolutely no clue how unpleasant it is to a non-smoker.

Yeah, I know it's addictive. I still don't get why people take it up. It's not as though there aren't lots of support systems there to help them quit. Long before the Surgeon General's report a half century ago, cigarettes were often referred to as "coffin nails". So their destructiveness was always understood.

While I would never advocate denying anyone needed health care because of dumb choices they've made, smokers simply don't get a lot of sympathy from me. I know that all the helpless addicted smokers out there think I'm heartless. So be it. You make choices. You live with them. Or die from them. It's what we all do.

[Stellar]

55. I started smoking when they had no labels on cigarettes, but

at 16 as I said earlier, I was young and invincible (or so I thought).

My mother never smoked but my dad did, and he stopped shortly after I started. But that didn't stop me...I wanted to look grown and cool, like they did in the movies and on TV, that's all we saw back then.

While I would never advocate denying anyone needed health care because of dumb choices they've made, smokers simply don't get a lot of sympathy from me. I know that all the helpless addicted smokers out there think I'm heartless. So be it. You make choices. You live with them. Or die from them. It's what we all do.

I didn't post to this thread looking for sympathy from you or anyone. I'm sorry if I have insulted you in any way that you wished that I would die from what once was a bad habit of mine.

[SheilaT]

62. I am not saying I wish that you would die from your former bad habit.

I'm only pointing out that we all make various choices. Sometimes those choices lead to very bad outcomes.

[Stellar]

76. Okay..

[JNelson6563]

37. So you know nothing of addiction, eh?

Perhaps you may consider learning something about addiction. That way when you speak on the subject you won't appear to be so ignorant AND arrogant at the same time.

I suspect many of us became addicted to smoking as children when our parents smoked in the house, the car and anywhere else. It is a very hard habit to quit. Arrogant ignorance doesn't help.

Julie

[spanone]

52. the appeal is addiction.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Oddly enough, that is also an e-cigs appeal. n/t

[LadyHawkAZ]

59. People start smoking because it's a stimulant and an antidepressant.

Believe it or not, that smoke "stink" smells fantastic to someone with depression problems- the chemicals in it are very attractive to your body. Yes, it causes health issues down the road, but in the here and now it makes them feel a little better, and in the here and now guess what's more important? There is a return, but non-smokers either don't know about it or don't care.

And once you start, you can't stop.

Just something to think about the next time you're feeling judgmental because someone, especially a young person, smells like smoke. Things aren't always what they seem.

[Kurska]

2. E-cigs made me unable to enjoy cigarettes.

You can get a incredibly clean feeling buzz from fruit flavored e-cig liquid, or you can burn plant matter and feel your lungs hate afterwards. I used to smoke cigarettes, e-cigs got me off it.

[KittyWampus]

35. IMO, it isn't the "plant matter" in cigarettes, it's all the many additives RJ Reynolds puts in>>>

I smoked from my teens to through my twenties and quit. I was one of the lucky ones who just stopped BUT I generally smoked my own hand rolled Drum tobacco. Which are fresher and contain no additives.

And over the years I did smoke quite a few people told me that while they hated cigarette smoke for some reason they didn't mind mine.

Now that I quit smoking and hate cigarette smoke it's the same for me… when I smell good pipe tobacco or a good cigar it's enjoyable. But being around regular RJ Reynolds cigarette smoke is disgusting.

It's the chemical additives. Maybe not entirely but probably to a great extent.

[mattclearing]

94. My understanding is that the additives are the main source of carcinogens as well.

Been awhile since I looked into it, but I seem to recall that the real culprit was fertilizer. More on that here:

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/sources/tobacco.html

How does radioactive material get into a cigarette?

The tobacco leaves used in making cigarettes contain radioactive material, particularly lead-210 and polonium-210. The radionuclide content of tobacco leaves depends heavily on soil conditions and fertilizer use.

Soils that contain elevated radium lead to high radon gas emanations rising into the growing tobacco crop. Radon rapidly decays into a series of solid, highly radioactive metals (radon decay products). These metals cling to dust particles which in turn are collected by the sticky tobacco leaves. The sticky compound that seeps from the trichomes is not water soluble, so the particles do not wash off in the rain. There they stay, through curing process, cutting, and manufacture into cigarettes.Lead-210 and Polonium-210 can be absorbed into tobacco leaves directly from the soil. But more importantly, fine, sticky hairs (called trichomes) on both sides of tobacco leaves grab airborne radioactive particles.

For example, phosphate fertilizers, favored by the tobacco industry, contain radium and its decay products (including lead-210 and polonium-210). When phosphate fertilizer is spread on tobacco fields year after year, the concentration of lead-210 and polonium-210 in the soil rises.

[dchill]

3. I agree completely.

As an incorrigible nicotine addict, I am very glad for the existence of the e-cigarette. I have been using them for over three years now. They are not, nor do they claim to be, a smoking-cessation device. But I no longer smoke.

This is, to my way of thinking, nothing less than a minor miracle. So, yeah, I'm still addicted to nicotine, but I feel way better and breathe much easier than I have in 30+ years. I support limiting sales to minors, but other than that, I think it's everyone's right to choose their poison - especially when it's a decidedly safer poison.

Oh, and I have to mention that even the most expensive e-cigarette options are less than half (way less) than regular cigarettes.

Thanks for your time.

[shaayecanaan]

4. pure nicotine inhalation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8614291/

[jtuck004]

13. Very interesting link. TY. n/t

[Treant]

15. They lost weight?

OK, that explains my weight gain since the nicotine levels dropped...not that I'm going to increase it again, but at least it's nice to get confirmation on that!

[mstinamotorcity2]

57. Thank You

for the link. And this thread gets book marked because of it.

[a2liberal]

5. My biggest problem with them

is the converts almost universally feel free to smoke them indoors, and some of them still have a smell and I have know idea what sorts of chemicals are still in the second-hand vapor

as a smoking-cessation aid, fine (as long as people start getting manners), but promoting them as "safe" when they're not (look into it... safer than cigarettes but not safe) will only lead to a new generation of addiction with kids trying the "safe cigarette"

[Treant]

17. [citation needed]

The best most anti-e-cig folks can manage is the old FDA study that found a trace of ethylene glycol in some liquids. That level wasn't toxic, of course, even if you'd concentrated the EG from the entire drum and swallowed it. Given that the sample was Chinese...well, I rest my case.

Nicotine is toxic, but that's immaterial at the levels consumed, which are not near toxic levels. Nicotine is not carcinogenic, nor any of the other nasty -ics.

PG and VG are apparently such a problem for the FDA that they cleared them for continuous exposure, IV medications, inhalation, and ingestion at fantastically higher levels than the e-cig could deliver...but now they suddenly have a problem with it? I'm sure they'd rather push Chantix.

[a2liberal]

28. Here you go

Not that I believe that you actually want it, but here: http://www.tobacco.ucsf.edu/10-chemicals-identified-so-far-e-cig-vapor-are-california-prop-65-list-carcinogens-and-reproductive

Your arguments sound exactly like the tobacco companies' "there's nothing dangerous about cigarettes". It took long enough to get the entitled jerks to stop smoking that stuff in everyone's faces in the first place, and it pisses me off that it's starting all over again with them having found an excuse to get in everyone's faces again with the dangerous second-hand vapors. Luckily it looks like laws are catching up a bit faster this time, but it's still going to take a while.

[SomethingFishy]

39. What a crock of shit..

I travel all over the world for a living. 3 weeks out of every month I am on the road. I meet hundreds of people every month. I have yet to see one single person "GET IN EVERYONES FACE" with their e-cig. I have yet to see one single person get in anyones face, let alone everyones.
But I meet people like you all the time. Mostly on loading docks, where there are half a dozen 18 wheelers spitting diesel fumes, and 3 or 4 forklifts spewing out propane, yet my e-cig vapor is harming you and I must go outside to smoke it..

[a2liberal]

44. You got me

I'm totally making up my personal experience with these people (the same kind that don't hesitate to smoke cigarettes right by an entrance until a locality bans the practice, and then bitch about it). And I just love exhaust fumes and totally am complaining about people using the ecigs on a loading dock, not the indoors that I specifically indicated. Totally.

[SomethingFishy]

73. Your "personal experiences" sound like many others I have heard before..

and 90% of them are bullshit. If you say can't stand the vapors from e-cigs you are full of shit. I can stand right next to you and smoke one and you would never know it. I have to because people like you give me dirty looks. But only if you actually see it. Otherwise you have no way of knowing. But hey don't let reality get in the way of your awesome display of political correctness.

Loading docks are considered indoors. Are you sure you aren't the person who asked me to stop polluting their dock

[jayfish]

41. Sorry,...

I looked at the data for that study and until the authors divulge the source of their test samples, I'll take the results with a grain of salt. Until proven otherwise, I bet they picked the cheapest nastiest Chinese liquid they could get their hands on. I buy from local vendors who make the liquid right in front of me. They use food grade USP VG and PG. I like the methodology, however, and would likie to see the test run with several, American made, boutique juices. I agree with you about one thing though. People who vape, indoors, in public shouldn't be blowing clouds a vapor all over the place. It's rude at best. It is possible to "stealth" vape to the point that no visible vapor is exhaled and all who vape should practice it. I do it all day at work and whenever I partake in public.

[Treant]

66. Agreed.

Lead? Not unless it's a contaminant, or they were dumb enough to use tin/lead solder in the atomizer. About half that argument applies with cadmium as well. Or, why I buy American lead-free Nichrome.

Nicotine is not carcinogenic. It may cause issues in pregnant women, but I'm male and, hence, unlikely to become pregnant. Exposing a developing neural network to most things is a bad idea.

[Egalitarian Thug]

53. Don't bother. There's just some people that can't be happy without spreading misery

and dictating other people's actions. I think it is mostly a hangover from the Victorian/Calvinist repression era. Conformity and obedience are paramount while persona contentment is irrelevant for these busy-bodies.

[Treant]

67. Agreed

The only reason I bother is the counter-argument can be important to smokers looking to make the transfer to e-cigs.

When in doubt? Ask your family doctor. Mine is completely on-board--which overrides anything an Internet "expert" might say. So is my specialist (I do have a minor congenital heart issue), dentist, and endodontist. Can't get much better than that.

[a2liberal]

84. Yeah because smokers aren't going to switch to a safer alternative if

they aren't allowed to spew their (less) poisonous fumes at everyone. You guys should see how ridiculous you're arguments sound to someone on the outside... You're really just pissed that some municipalities are starting to recognize the new second-hand danger and you are afraid you'll be inconvenienced again to be able to poison yourselves (less).

[Treant]

88. Eh?

That wasn't a sub-discussion I was in on. But if you really want to bring it up, I'm happy to go outside with the smokers...and stand far away from them as it reeks.

Mostly, I'm just unimpressed at the "data" you presented from a known partisan with exceedingly questionable funding sources. So what's really pissing you off is that we're not mindlessly swallowing your bullshit.

[a2liberal]

90. Sorry

you're right that you didn't directly argue for indoor smoking of e-cigs. I misinterpreted your citation needed response since my main objection was the secondhand smoke I thought you were debating me on that. Especially since nobody, let alone me, claimed that e-cigs were MORE dangerous than cigarettes yet you said that I was discouraging a switch with my statements/citations. But I acknowledge that I might have misunderstood (though not quite sure how)

That being said, I think it's interesting that you describe a University center professor funded by a foundation that works towards reducing smoking (which I hope we can all agree is bad for your health) as partisan when talking about something that is potentially an aid to quitting smoking (and that others in this same thread argue that tobacco companies are opposed to)

anyways, I'm made my points and am done here. it's pretty obvious that people have entrenched positions that they're not yet ready to reconsider

[Treant]

95. Pot, kettle

I actually said "partisan" when I meant "partisan zealot hack." Poor methodology, inflammatory reporting, he pretty much covers it all.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Your language makes you sound like Phillp Morris' agent. Converts. You don't know what's

in them, but the OP explains that, so your lack of knowledge indicates you did not read it, don't know how to Google or don't care about facts. Speaking facts, one does not smoke an e-cig, there is no smoke, no fire, one uses an e-cig. Folks who say 'you are smoking' are doing so with an agenda and they are being mendacious as it gets.
And if you know they are not safe, how come you don't know what's in it or that it is not smoke? Can you show me a 'promotion' that says they are safe? Of course not.

[a2liberal]

45. Yep. Totally.

I'm sure Philip Morris would looove to have cigarette-hating me on staff.

[Brainstormy]

100. they don't have HALF the smell

of perfume, hairspray, normal room air in a restaurant, smog, my dogs, bad breath, most anything! And they don't smell bad unless there's a flavor in them, i.e., cherry, vanilla, and that's personal. My husband is a bloodhound and can't smell anything from the ones my daughter uses. This is just wanting to hate on smokers. Anyone who chooses e-cigarettes as a method to cut down, quit, or just switch, has my full support.

[Tobin S.]

6. If you ever want to break the addiction to nicotine, abstinence is the only way.

Nicotine is still bad for you no matter how it is delivered. At the very least it raises your blood pressure.

Those reasons are why I tell people to stop using products that contain nicotine if they ask me how to quit. You'll be very uncomfortable for about three days, and somewhat uncomfortable for a couple of weeks, but being free of that drug is very much worth it.

I smoked regularly for 23 years. I was up to two packs a day when I quit. I felt like crap for about a month and then that was the end of it. I've been nicotine-free for almost a year and a half now.

But I do agree that e-cigs are not nearly as bad for you as tobacco. If you must have nicotine, then I think they are the best alternative to tobacco. But if you ever want to be free of addiction they won't help you.

[Major Nikon]

8. Coffee also increases your blood pressure

The effect of coffee and nicotine on blood pressure are both short lived.

[Tobin S.]

9. Not if you continually put the drug into your body like most nicotine addicts do.

My blood pressure dropped ten points when I quit smoking.

[Major Nikon]

11. Which makes a good case for moderation

I smoke a tobacco pipe rarely more than once per day and I can put it down for months and never miss it.

[jtuck004]

12. At the very least it raises your blood pressure. < So does DU <LOL> n/t

[Treant]

18. Well...yes

Tobin's post did it for me. If I want a lecture, I'll call my mother.

Oh...wait, she quit smoking with the e-cig as well, and is now at 2 mg/ml nicotine for a total potential maximum exposure of 4 mg per day. Her doctor couldn't be more thrilled (nor could mine, for that matter).

[jtuck004]

19. I mentioned it to an oral surgeon a couple weeks ago, he thought

they were a VAST improvement over cigs, for many of the same reasons you mentioned in your earlier post.

[Treant]

20. My doctor

has quite a sense of humor (it helps that he's a family friend).

His rough paraphrased quote on cigarettes was, "If I had to choose between you smoking or injecting heroin with dirty needles...I'm not sure which one I'd pick."

So for him to actually support the e-cig and state specifically that he didn't care if I used it for the rest of my life was rather telling.

Not that you could tell most of the zealots around here that. Apparently the Pope died and made them arbiters of morality.

[jtuck004]

23. That's why they call them zealots <G> n/t

[Treant]

24. We need a thumbs-up

button here, 'cause that deserves it.

Honestly, let me follow some zealots around for the day and pick on every habit they have that's a) not good and b) I don't have.

Except I'd probably get bored and meander off to go book shopping because I'm...well, not a zealot.

[dionysus]

47. type : thumbsup : without the spaces...

[Tobin S.]

21. How long has she been tapering off?

It would have probably been a lot easier, safer, and cheaper if she just would have stopped, suffered for a month and been done with it. And she's still an addict albeit a much healthier one.

As I said, e-cigs are great if you just want to stop using tobacco. If you want to stop being an addict you have to completely stop using nicotine. The fastest way to break the addiction is to simply stop putting nicotine into your body. End of story.

[Treant]

22. Thanks again

for the morality lecture because of course neither of us ever considered quitting any other way in decades of smoking. It took your heartfelt wisdom for us to realize that there actually is more than just the e-cig method of quitting--since nobody ever bothered mentioning that before.

Not to go off on a rant, here, but I'm presuming you don't eat tomatoes, potatoes, or eggplant in your quest for purity from nicotine. All three contain pretty high levels, as do all members of the nightshade family.

The decades long segue from "smoking is bad because it'll kill you" to "nicotine is bad because it's addictive" is interesting to observe, but not particularly substantive. Particularly not when I've had the lecture delivered by somebody swilling coffee at the time.

Basically, what I'm saying here is I'm not particularly impressed by black/white morality. Come back when you can explain which populations tend to smoke and why...and why the e-cig can be a major boon to them. Hint: folks with depression, bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia tend to be smokers. There's a reason for that.

Right now, I'm much more interested and impressed by the decrease in mortality and morbidity from the e-cig by getting cigarette smokers to shift. Petty moralism won't cut it until we actually see an uptick in youth e-cig use without a pre-existing cigarette habit. The FDA just got forced to retract a report for flat-out lying about that.

[Eleanors38]

31. My Dad, 30 yrs after quitting cold-turkey, said he still missed cigarettes.

Seems quitting doesn't stop the addiction.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Many actual addicts to alcohol and hard drugs claim that stopping use does not mean you

are no longer an addict, they say the opposite, that one is always addicted. They start AA meetings by saying 'Hell, I'm an alcoholic, sober 37 years'. So according to actual addicts, stopping use is stopping use, it is not an end to addiction. So your hyped up language does not really fill the bill you think it does.
With smoking, it is not the nicotine that is doing the greatest harm. It's the smoking of tobacco as nicotine delivery system that does the harm.

[beevul]

70. It would be great, if you knew what you were talking about before pontificating.

Addiction to nicotine VIA smoking, and and addiction to nicotine via vaping, are two very different animals.

Of course, you would have to be one of those that made the transition from smoking, to vaping, to actually know it.

Addiction to nicotine via smoking is quite comparable to addiction to heroine, while addiction to nicotine via vaping is about parallel to caffeine addiction.

People who have made the transition, can be away from their vape...even forget about vaping, whilst doing other things, for hours, and not have that "I'm gonna strangle someone if I don't get my fix" feeling that they would get if they ran out of ciggs for a couple hours when they were smoking.

So lets don't pretend that the word "addict" means the same thing for vapers as it did for smokers, mkay?


If you already knew that, you were doing a hell of a job getting the point across.

[nomorenomore08]

72. I wonder if some people (by their nature) are doomed to be addicted to *something* or other.

In which case, I would certainly go with the lesser of two evils.

[bhikkhu]

87. They do really help with the addiction thing

...as I can say from experience, quitting e-cigs is a picnic compared to quitting nicotine. I think much of the strength of the "nicotine addiction" involves addiction to other things in cigarette smoke. When I quit smoking it was pretty rough, physically and mentally, for the first week every time I quit.

When I quit e-cigs (after using fairly heavily for 2 months, being nicotine free for 5 years prior) it was no problem. I had some anxiety over it because of experiences with quitting smoking, but as far as actual withdrawal symptoms - there were none. I felt fine, perhaps a mild craving that I avoided by just keeping myself busy. Otherwise, I felt almost unusually good.

Not to say that nicotine addiction from e-cigs is a good thing, but its not the fearful thing cigarettes have been. If you can transition to e-cigs, quitting is then just a fairly easy matter of wanting to and making the decision. Once done, its not a hard decision to stick to, in my experience.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. They helped me quit

I tried everything - that was what helped me to stop. Cheap nJoys from 7-11. Keep it up! Within a week - I promise the smell of smoke will make you ill. Within a month - you will "forget" to smoke the e cig first thing in the morning. . It took three months and then one day I realized I hadn't put the nJoy in my mouth for three days. And never put another one in again.

Chantix has triggered everything from depression to joint issues. And if patches, gum, lozenges didn't work for you - then maybe this will. Quit however you can. This is just one more way. PM me if you need let off steam. I'm here to support you.

[Treant]

10. They helped me quit too

And seven of my family members.

Most of us are moving our nicotine levels down. A few aren't. Mine's dropped to a quarter of what it was a year ago.

[Frank Cannon]

89. My wife's friend and her husband are both at zero nicotine.

Former chain smokers, the both of them. They picked up the e-cig with the express purpose of tapering off nicotine completely, and they both succeeded within weeks.

They still puff on them occasionally to satisfy the oral fixation, but without the nicotine.

The best part is, my wife can now walk into her friend's office and not be stifling coughing and gagging from the cigarette stench.

[CBGLuthier]

16. The problem is not you. It is those who will think may as well START because now it is SAFE

and it is still not really good for you. Keeps the tobacco companies fat and healthy too.

I quit for good a few years ago. My sister is still sucking on these things and it is pathetic.

[Ruby the Liberal]

42. What?

How are the tobacco companies staying "fat and happy" because people are buying nJoys? RJ Reynolds (I believe) bought Blu (someone correct me here) but because of FDA uncertainty - they aren't even in this market.

Open to correction with supporting links.

[LadyHawkAZ]

64. Lorillard owns Blu, RJR I think owns Vuse n/t

[Treant]

68. Phillip Morris

is coming out with their own version, so I've heard.

It's also interesting to note that most of the vapers I know would never in a million years trust anything made by a cigarette company--including myself. They're going to make it more addictive, and probably worse for you.

I'll stick with the e-liquids that I make in my own kitchen from pharmaceutical grade ingredients bought from known and tested sources.

[bhikkhu]

85. Starting isn't a big deal, neither is stopping

I'll write up my own experiences at some point later, but to put it briefly, I was a smoker years ago so I know what all that's like, and how hard it is to quit. I was very much against e-cigs when I heard about them, but then finally decided to try them and see if the claims were justified, and resolve some old questions I had about the effects of nicotine.

To make a long story very short - after being nicotine free for 5 years I took up e-cigs and vaped pretty heavily for 2 months. At no point was there the slightest inclination to smoke cigarettes; I still can't stand the smell or the idea of them. When I was vaping it was very much an addiction (the pleasure hit thing like smokes), there was no vaping a bit one day then not the next day (as is very easy to do with alcohol, for me at least); the desire was about the same as with regular cigs, a few puffs at least every hour, mostly more. There were zero side effects except chapped lips and dry-mouth. Most importantly, there were zero side effects and little difficulty with quitting.

Again, I quit with zero side effects and little difficulty - I decided I'd figured out what I wanted to figure out, I was tired of the chapped lips, and one evening I put the device and the liquids in a drawer and said I'm not going to puff again, and that's what I did. No big deal, no stress, nothing at all like quitting cigarettes. I was worried, recalling the experiences with cigarettes, but I actually felt better the next day, happier, and better again the day after, and no problems with cravings or anything, just done. I still have all the set-up to take it up again if I want, and unlike cigs there is nothing like the "divided self" feeling, like you have to get rid of things because you can't trust yourself.

So, summing up, in my experience e-cigs are easy to start, easy to stop, and really no big deal. Easier to quit than coffee, and less side effects. It may well be different for different people, but that's how it was for me.

[Brainstormy]

101. Horse puckety

e-cigarettes compete with conventional cigarettes and the tobacco companies. They hate them.

[LWolf]

25. I certainly think that all smokers

should switch to e-cigarettes.

I think what those "not cheering" are concerned about is about marketing, and about the future. About using the "healthier" aspect to make smoking fashionable again, and to hook a whole new generation on nicotine through this new delivery system. Nicotine, or so I've read, is a harder addiction to break than heroin.

My mom was a smoker; I grew up living in her second-hand smoke. No one was happier than I when, in her 40s, she quit. She gained 20 lbs. I don't care. She's still beautiful, and has lived in decent health into her mid 70s so far. She DOES have a very mild case of COPD as a parting gift from the smoking.

My first husband, the father of my children, was a smoker. He was so addicted he'd steal his own baby's milk money from where I'd hidden it so I could continue to feed that baby until the next paycheck if he ran out of cigarettes. He'd search the house, knowing I'd stashed something he could get his hands on somewhere.

He's dead. Not a coincidence.

Thankfully, neither of our children grew up to be smokers. Maybe BECAUSE of what they witnessed with their dad.

I understand both sides of this argument. E-cigs are great. Relatively. I also don't want my grandchildren deciding that smoking is "cool" and becoming addicts, even to e-cigs.

[workinclasszero]

26. I quit smoking over 20 years ago

Cold turkey worked for me but obviously that hasn't worked for millions of smokers. I think e cigs are really great and a lifesaver for all people that cant quit the nicotine habit.

I would definitely be using them if I wasn't able to quit killer cigs. The opposition to these lifesaving products is mind boggling.

I mean really...WTF?

I work with a guy who's smoked 20 plus years. He started vaping 3 years ago and hasn't had a coffin nail since.

Just WTH is wrong with this?? I don't get it.

And lets not forget the killing effects of second hand smokers on non smokers that is totally absent with e cigs along with the stinkin stench all over a smokers clothes, car, hair, house, etc.

How can the American Lung Association be against these things????

[jtuck004]

29. “Over the short term, e-cigarettes are almost certainly less harmful than smoking cigarettes,” said

Tom Glynn, director of the American Cancer Society’s International Cancer Control. “What are the long-term effects of inhaling pure nicotine into the lungs? That is something we don’t know.”

There are links to that statement all over the place, though the impression from my brief search is that they seem to use only the first sentence a lot more.

In a post above someone sent me a link to this study of rats on nicotine - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8614291/

So nicotine alone may, or may not, be as harmful as people claim. I read another study in which they gave smokers nicotine replacement gum, but half of them got placebo (ordinary gum). The percentage of gum chewers was the same after a year. If nicotine alone, with the synergy of the rest of the agents in a tobacco plant, was so addictive, one would thing that the placebo chewers would drop in relative numbers, but they didn't. However, it might also be because they were afraid they might start smoking again, etc.

There may also be some genetic differences in how people's physiology responds to cigarettes or nicotine which make it more or less likely that they will continue to smoke, be able to quit, etc.

Overall, I think these are a great alternative for smokers of tobacco, and we will see where it goes from there.

[logosoco]

27. Always glad to hear this!

My husband and I quit regular cigs (after 30+ years) about 2 years ago. Probably would not have done it without ecigs. I enjoyed smoking, and I enjoy vaping.
I started smoking when I was about 12. Yes, I read the surgeon generals note on the packages. But I also grew up learning about nuclear bombs and I guess my young mind figured the world was a dangerous place and people sometimes do things that are not in the best interest of health.
In all my years of working, my smoking never made me miss work. I am now out of work because of physical problems, all of which were brought on by the jobs I had that were not good for my body!
I would love to see all smokers give them a try. I can see the difference it has made to my breathing capacity and my budget!
Cheers to you, OP!

[Eleanors38]

30. E-cigs also pulled the pants down on the New Prohibition.

This newest of prohibitions isn't just about "second-hand smoke." Witness the uproar and calls for prohibiting uses of E-cigs. This new movement is about the same old See-No-Evil Prohibitionism of the WOD: War On Drugs.

The aim of the tobacco prohis is standard, old school General Prohibition. There WILL be prohibition of smoking in public. There WILL be prohibition of smoking in ones residence if walls adjoin those of another residence. There WILL be prohibition of smoking in a residence where children reside, complete with child-protective service bureau involvement & criminal enforcement. There WILL be criminalization of smoking while operating a motor vehicle. There WILL be criminalization of possessing loose tobacco & paraphernalia.

Meet da New Boss. Same as da Old Boss.

[KittyWampus]

33. No- sorry. It's about undoing the damage that cigarette advertising did for many decades and

the widespread havoc smoking real cigarettes causes.

That is why e-cigs are, IMO, a gift and should be embraced.

Those who are so totally against e-cigs may be reactionary but it is due to seeing the massive harm done by real cigarettes amongst do very many people and over so many long years.

[Eleanors38]

34. I agree the E-cigs are a far better product and should be widely available.

I also agree with your assessment about the damage done by cigarette ads.

But the march toward General Prohibition WILL continue, involving the measures I cited; how many do you support?

There is no moderation with prohibition.

[KittyWampus]

32. the "abstinence" argument is as stupid for e-cigs as it is for sex. It doesn't work >>>>

and some kids up doing it anyway.

So which would you prefer- kids try and vap on e-cigarettes and reduce potential harm or kids try real cigarettes and definitely harm themselves?

Like sex- some kids WILL be having sex. They can either use a condom or not.

It's up to parents and adults to make sure the safer route is understood to exist.

[Bennyboy]

40. The focus of outrage has changed (or has it?)

Now everyone is about banning ECigs. I think that is more an crusade against tobacco use in general than it is a health issue. I think the bans are ridiculous same as any ban on vaporizing cannabis. it is not smoke, it is not harmful and you cannot smell it if you are not the one using it. Perfect solution. Even though I am what is considered a radical non smoker, I have no problem with smoking or tobacco use other than it bothers ME.

A couple of weeks ago, just for fun, I conducted a test with my vaporizer. Stinky buds, some hash oil. SKYDA5 pen vape. I sat in the middle of a crowded bar during trivia night and puffed a few hits. My friends, among them the owner of the bar, were amazed that there was no aroma and that they could not tell I was vaping in the bar. All had been dead set against ECigs and vapes before that. My friend Chris, who I told "Watch this" and then pulled a long puff, was crapping his pants then but when I exhaled he was amazed..... Now, he owns a vaporizer. Still can't get him to go over to the ECigs but we are working on it.

i for one wish all my smoker friends would switch to ECigs. Then I could talk to them without them or myself having to leave or infest my personal space with poisons. And they wouldn't stink so bad.


I hang out in the rock and roll scene, and I gotta tell ya, young kids smoke. Almost half of them do and they smoke anywhere they damn well please. (Same with pot).. I wish they would switch. Some use a vaporizer for cannabis, but they still smoke ciggies. And there are bands and venues I will NOT go to due to the amount of cigarette smoke inside. (I have no problem with pot smoke but use a vaporizer when indoors)...it is tough to have a good time when you want to bash in the skulls of 5 thousand people.

[nomorenomore08]

74. +1

I'm 29 and I can tell you a lot of people of my generation smoke cigs. Seems like the anti-tobacco advertising blitz has had only a temporary effect.

[Capt. Obvious]

50. Rec for comparing the anti-smoking zealots to racists and homophobes

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. Anyone remember "cigarettes are a drug delivery mechanism"?

So... I suppose that more "mechanism" and less "cigarette" is an improvement.

Syringes don't require any electricity. Just sayin'

http://www.rwjf.org/reports/grr/026766.htm

My brother "quit" smoking maybe 50 times. After he had a heart attack he bought an e-cig and keeps it on a lanyard around his neck. I told him that he could keep his hands entirely free if he simply replaced the guts of his scuba regulator with the thing.

[Major Nikon]

93. You should also remember that cigarettes are more hazardous than any other nicotine delivery system

Nicotine by itself is not a carcinogen. Toxic, yes, but so are a lot of other things we put in our bodies.

The CDC seems to think that e-cigs are safer than cigarettes, but the jury is still out on how much. Most, if not all current studies seem to be funded by the industry.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. I don't doubt that they're safer

But addiction is still addiction.

[Major Nikon]

99. I get physical withdrawl symptoms if I go without coffee for too long

So I'm pretty sure there's an addiction involved, but that alone isn't enough to warrant cessation.

I think it's probably ill advised to encourage someone who has a previous heart attack to continue using e-cigs, but it may very well be that the hazard from them is quite small if there's any at all. I am convinced that comparing them to cigarettes from a health perspective is a poor idea. Other than nicotine, the substances involved are completely different and the delivery system is completely different. The only thing that's similar is it looks like someone is smoking a cigarette when they are using e-cigs.

[mstinamotorcity2]

54. What up jtuckoo4

I have been on an e-cig for about a month now. I haven't smoked a real cigarette. I was absolutely nervous about quitting. I used smoking as an excuse for calming my nerves. Even though I knew it was because the nicotine level was dropping whenever I prolonged use of tobacco. I was also worried about weight gain. Especially since it took me almost a year to drop 50 pounds. You know I didn't want to ask my husband does this dress make me look fat. Most of all I saved about $40.00 bucks a week. But now I am happy to say none of these things have happened since I am using e-cigs. My E-cig of choice is V2 with a 1.8 dosage.. I prefer the menthol. They are rechargeable and one filter lasts about 3 days.I haven't been edgy. I haven't gained weight. And I am almost at that 6 week point where they say once you get those weeks under your belt your success rate is higher for quitting. So hats off to you. Congrats!!!!! to you!!!! And if you start feeling apprehensive then inbox me and unlike some I will be there for support. New non-smokers need to encourage each other to success. Start by considering yourself a former smoker. And welcome to the club. And like you mine was a forty year habit. But bad habits are made to be broken.

[backwoodsbob]

77. welcome to the e-cig club...here's the keys to the pool and the course opens at dawn

use a triple3 system here with a local shops tobacco flavored juice they call red leaf...tasty stuff.

Went from two packs a day to about 5 cigs to two weeks layer no cigs...smoke free now.

Oh and BTW...with all the money you save you can join our bentley a month club.....we do enjoy ourselves

[mstinamotorcity2]

79. Well Thank you sir!!!!

I think I will save my lap in the pool for the Victory. And for when I learn how to swim I started out with about three regular cigarettes a day the first week. And I changed E-cigs about four times to find the one that was complimentary to me. Once I found the V2, I have not had any regular cigarettes at all. That was three and a half weeks ago. So I am about 5 weeks in. All I know is I want to be smoke free. I want my cologne to entice not smoke odor repulsion. I know that everyday I don't smoke is another day I get to have to fuck with republicans. And I couldn't pass that up for anything in the World Seriously though, I am a scrapper. I couldn't let R.J. Reynolds whip me to a coffin. not going out like no punk

[LadyHawkAZ]

60. Biggest congrats on the quit!

Welcome to the E-Cig Quitters Club! We have cookies!

[Treant]

69. And cookie flavored liquids

Oh, wait, they want to ban those too because they're attractive to children.

And most adults I know prefer cardboard flavor, so that's OK, then...

(generates a nice cloud gently scented with mint)

[ohheckyeah]

61. No, it obviously isn't what everyone wanted.

They want to lecture about addiction, make claims that the vapor is harming them in some way, and in general look down their noses on smokers. And, wont' somebody think about the children?

[Mariana]

80. Mostly they want to see smokers suffer - even after they've quit.

E-cigs just make it way too easy. Why, many former smokers like vaping more than they ever enjoyed smoking! It really grinds their grapes to know that so many people have quit smoking without being miserable doing it.

[ohheckyeah]

82. Yep....and

use the same argument the righties use to make birth control and abortion illegal......it encourages kids to have sex.

If ads for e-cigarettes encourage kids to smoke, don't beer ads encourage them to drink? Or video games full of violence encourage them to be violent?

They like to have it both ways.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. My doc is now recommending them to his smoking patients who can't quit.

He never thought I would quit. Now, it's been 3 years since my last "real" cigarette after 50 years of smoking.

[Waiting For Everyman]

65. I switched to ecigs 3 1/2 years ago

after hearing about them here on DU. Haven't smoked so much as even one real cigarette since.

A big "thanks!" to the DUers who brought up the subject back then, and to you, OP for doing so now. It's a life-saving and life-changing subject.

[nomorenomore08]

75. +1

Just like with Obamacare, the personal stories are as important as anything else.

[beevul]

71. "And that's what everyone said they wanted, isn't it?"

No, it definitely isn't.

A certain cross section of the population wishes do dictate to everyone else based on their own biases.

And theres some mighty strange bedfellows there:

Anti-vape, anti-gun, anti-abortion, anti-tattoo, anti-piercing, and on and on and on.

[Mariana]

81. "And that's what everyone said they wanted, isn't it?"

It's true, even that cross section of the population said they said they wanted that. They lied.

[beevul]

86. Exactly. N/T

[Warpy]

78. Nicotine remains toxic to body systems, which is the reason for caution from public health people

However, it's much better to inhale it in vapor than to suck concentrated smoke into your lungs.

Public health people also need to notice what happens when a kid who's been using e-cigs tries the real thing. It's pretty funny to watch. Most of them think it's just not worth it and resign themselves to waiting until they get more juice. I don't see it as much of a gateway, to tell the truth.

Another factor is that people who use the e-cigs tend to taper down their daily nicotine dose without realizing it since they take only enough hits to satisfy the craving instead of smoking an expensive butt to the end.

I'd rather see dumb teenagers get hooked on these rather than the real thing, overall. Perhaps a feel-good regulation limiting them to kids over 16 would be in order, the real thing being reserved for lunatics over 21.

[Demo_Chris]

83. Going on 3 WEEKS without a cigarette. I have my e-cigarette thing...

And plan to slowly cut down the level of nicotine in the juice as I buy new bottles.

3 weeks. And yeah, I feel better physically and mentally maybe.

[mattclearing]

91. I see them here in Oz. People use them in pubs and no one cares.

I think it's great. I quit ten years ago, and have lost a good friend, a family member, and a colleague to likely-smoking-related illness, so seeing people with an alternative that doesn't do nearly as much damage is really encouraging.

[Douglas Carpenter]

92. I managed to quit smoking totally and completely about one and a half years ago - I did so without

any aids or standard treatment. However, as a pure curiosity thing - I did try the E-cigs once just to see what they are like. I have to say that they are amazing and no doubt a lot less harmful. Furthermore, it does not give off any kind of odor whatsoever that can possibly bother anyone - unless some habitual trouble maker is simply making up lies and claiming the vapors are bothering them. So, they should be welcomed - albeit cautiously. Because we don't know enough yet about the long term picture and the attraction they might present to very young nonsmokers.

[cleanhippie]

97. "Irregardless" is not a word.

It's a double-negative.

"Regardless" is the word you're looking for.

[jtuck004]

98. It is a word. It is a portmanteau, commonly used in informal settngs, and in this case used

as an adverb in place of regardless, (most people accept it as meaning the same thing, as did you, apparently) a combination of regardless and irrespective.

As such it was precisely what I was looking for. I even thought about it before I used it.

A few don't like it, but that's a separate issue,. Ms. Black, (8th grade, 9th grade?), would have agreed with you. It's like hunting mice would be to a cat for you people, isn't it? <G>. That look in your faces when you have it struggling in your teeth is priceless, but why do you insist on killing it then bringing it in to lay it at our feet? Is is just a need to point out how bad we are at hunting? Do you just like to share?

In comparison to the larger and far more egregious errors being committed in the name of language today, I don't give it the import others might.

I'm always wary of following the herd mentality too closely anyway.