Men should be offended . . .

[Triana]

[leftyohiolib]

1. im more offended by people saying that im raping my wife if we have sex after getting drunk

[radiclib]

10. Who's saying that?

If it's your wife saying it, then maybe you are.

[CSStrowbridge]

53. He's trying to argue...

He's trying to argue that if a woman is too drunk to say no, then it is the same as saying yes.

[leftyohiolib]

132. that's funny no it's not my wife. there was a whole discussion here about this

and that is what people here were saying

[radiclib]

134. Let me see if I understand you

You're saying that someone here is maintaining that if you and your wife are both drunk and have consensual sex, that is rape?
Or are you claiming that you can have sex with your drunk wife regardless of what she says, because she's drunk?

[JackInGreen]

156. He's I think

referring to a certain group that would indicate that if his wife (his status does not matter) is inebriated and they engage in intercourse, she cannot really consent because she is drunk, therefore making the intercourse by definition, Rape.

[seabeyond]

157. what he and others with this line are doing, is dismissing raping drunk, unconscious, unable to give

consent girls at parties. he is taking it to an extreme to belittle and dismiss, derail this thread.

that is what he is doing.

[EOTE]

158. I've heard many others here, including you, make that very argument.

You can say that he's taking the argument to the extreme ends, but you and others like you have done just that well before he did. It's offensive bullshit.

[seabeyond]

160. post it. you are wrong. you NEVER heard me make the argument. post it. didnt happen

[EOTE]

171. And if I do, would you admit you're full of crap?

You're telling me that you don't believe that if a woman consents with her lips, but is intoxicated you consider that to be rape? Because I seem to recall you suggesting just that in a post. As I recall, you also got in your mandatory disgusting slam on all men in it as well.

[seabeyond]

173. i have never said it. you threw shit out figuring it would stick. reality is, i didnt say. ever.

you are wrong. and you know you cannot prove it so instead of admitting you were just flinging shit to see if it stuck, you backpedal.

[EOTE]

174. Read it and weep. Or read it and reminisce. Whichever floats your boat.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5456460&mesg_id=5457767

When referring to the movie "Observe and Report", you deem the scene to be rape even though she says, with her actual mouth, "I didn't say stop!", requesting that he don't. But it has to be rape to you, because only sober people have consensual sex. Of course, your disgust goes even further when you once again bring out your obligatory, sickening slam on all men when you say " it is a males wet dream to fuck anything not moving."

Do you ever get tired of being so wrong or so disgustingly sexist?

[seabeyond]

176. ya. i said it was promoting raping an unconscious woman. that this is what our society

feeds our young men. fuck an unconscious woman.

that is it?

that is so fuckin embarrassing for the men that demanded their right to fuck an unconscious woman cause in a moment of waking up she said, dont stop. and ignoring a CREATED version of hollywood validating raping an unconscious woman.

so fuckin embarrassing for the men defending. and this is what you tell me is me saying, .... having sex with a drunk wife is rape. wow. wow. wow

you got me.

thank you. gonna bookmark this link. i have needed it when men arguing NO ONE would give this behavior a thumbs up. appreciate.

[EOTE]

184. Unconscious women can't say "Don't stop fucking me."

Something you and your ilk have a very hard time understanding.

And you sickeningly insist that you are defending men when you say this bullshit and then turn around and say "it is a males wet dream to fuck anything not moving."

You are not defending men, you are just throwing around disgusting accusations. If men here said about women the things you regularly say about men, they'd be banned. You DO think that drunk sex is rape, I've just proven it. Of course you're too full of yourself to admit it, but once again, you turn being wrong into an art form. It's all that you know.

[Capt. Obvious]

204. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:22 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Unconscious women can't say "Don't stop fucking me."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4188708

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Personal attack. "your ilk" unustified attack on a group of du. "it is a males wet dream to fuck anything not moving." Never said this even if he puts it in quotes. "You DO think that drunk sex is rape" he proved having unconscious sex with a woman is rape, only. "too full of yourself to admit it" more personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:37 AM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It's like hard you know what ails I see nothing more than what gives onto low roads say all and then you know I like should say this place makes wail of knot and I come to real ize if this has to give more until you don't get lol sure okay
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Have you seen what this post is in response too? Seabeyond is great at pushing buttons. She is, IMHO, too full of herself.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: The poster needs to ask for clarification instead of ugly accusations... While the entire subthread is heated and the poster to which this is intended is not surprisingly defensive (and vulgar) in her responses, the fact is that the alerted poster chose to attack, rather than ask.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[EOTE]

209. Ha, thanks for the update. And she did, in fact, say that it's a male's wet dream to have sex with

something that doesn't move. I even linked to where she said it. If I said half the offensive shit the poster I was responding to said, I'd have been banned a long time ago.

[Capt. Obvious]

230. I'd bet a coke all of your posts in this thread were alerted on

Come on people - post results!

[EOTE]

232. And I have a feeling you'd be one coke richer.

I'd like to see those results too. Considering all the posts of mine that actually DO get hidden, I have to imagine there's a crazy amount that are alerted on.

[AtheistCrusader]

250. Thats like... the worst kind of sex.

Who wants a partner that just lays there like a piece of meat from the store. Sex seems like a partnership. Feeback required and preferred.

I mean, unless you're into that sort of thing I guess.

[nomorenomore08]

328. It was movie, for Christ's sake! An idiotic (if mildly amusing) comedy film.

And I haven't seen anyone here say much beyond "Screwing an unconscious (or near-unconscious) woman is wrong and probably criminal" which - DUH - we all know or should know.

And even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that some random stranger on the Internet does disapprove of your bedroom activities with your spouse, so what? Not like they have any power to do anything about it. If your wife's okay with what's going on then there's not much anyone else can do.

[seabeyond]

179. ha... reading gwenolyn, i realize who she is on the new and improved du3. i know the poster

was familiar. i forgot all about gwendolyn. lol lol lol. thank you again. awareness. a good thing.

[chervilant]

183. O, goodness!

Do you ever get tired of being so wrong or so disgustingly sexist?

Perhaps you should ask yourself that question...

(BTW, as I observed herein above: a defensive posture about rape is not necessarily good or advisable. But, given your history of hidden posts, I doubt you'll consider my observation...)

[EOTE]

185. Ask myself if a woman saying that it's a man's wet dream to fuck something doesn't move is sexist?

Or defending against such disgusting, offensive comments is bullshit? Which is it, dear? I think throwing out such filth is sexist, are you trying to silence me or something? Are you of the impression that saying that it's a man's wet dream to have sex with something that doesn't move is like feminism or something? I'm really interested in hearing what you have to think about that. It should be precious.

[chervilant]

299. Your derision and condescension

say a lot about you. I don't know where you got such "disgusting, offensive comments," but I have no interest in hearing such garbage, as it contributes nothing to this discussion.

Just FYI, the first response to this OP has been perceived by multiple DUers as an attempt to derail. Again, I would encourage you to seek information about rape and patriarchy, if only to help you make cogent, defensible rebuttals.

[seabeyond]

186. ha, didnt even read that. i dont read his posts. says i say sex with drunk wife is rape.

i never said that. gives me a movie with a scene of date rape. raping an UNCONSCIOUS woman. and he sees it the same, says i am wrong, and calls me a sexist, all wrapped up in one big ole wrong. lol. what a fuckin hoot. and THAT is why i never read this posters gibberish, and rarely respond.

[moriah]

214. It may be offensive, but it is a fetish.

And if a couple is fine with it happening and gives consent beforehand, just like a husband and wife can probably give each other blanket consent (IF they choose to) to initiate sex while drunk or sleeping, then it's not rape. Some couples even will deliberately, willingly, have the passive partner take sleeping pills before bed to make it easier for it to happen without them waking up, with the express purpose of allowing the fetish to happen.

There's a line between squick and sick -- it's called consent. It may squick me, but it's not entirely what I can call sick in those very specific circumstances.

(This is being said by a woman who was raped while unconscious and has a good reason for this to both squick and sicken me.)

[EOTE]

222. Thanks for teaching me a new word...

"Squick", interesting. I agree, consent is what it's all about. Unfortunately, consent can have many different forms for many people as the BDSM community shows us. When consent doesn't look like the exact idea they have of it in their mind, many in the brigade will lash out thoroughly at those involved (or at least one sex of those involved). To them, BDSM or any sex done under the influence of substances is rape.

[moriah]

231. Well, I have to admit the bottom drugging themselves deliberately is not safe or entirely sane.

(For those who don't know and don't want to have to brave UrbanDictionary, SS&C - Safe, Sane, and Consensual). There's another acronym that I think is more reflective of most edgeplay like that -- "Risk-Aware Consensual Kink", or RACK.

But that's an argument that's gone on in the kink community for years, which one to advocate. For new players, SS&C is probably the better way to go.

I'm just saying, yes, it is some people's wet dream to have sex with an unconscious body. Not "all men", which is doubtful to be what Sea meant, but enough of them that one of them affected my life, and from her posts in that thread, one affected hers. And there are some who do it without being sick motherfuckers, too (even if I wouldn't play with them).

[EOTE]

236. If I said "It's a woman's wet dream to marry a handsome, wealthy man", would I be speaking of women

in general? It was a ridiculously stupid comment to make. She very well could have said "Some men", but she didn't. If the same comment were directed at women, it would be just as sexist. She does that all... the... time. And then she insists that she can't hate men because she has two sons. Well, she says incredibly hateful things toward men all the time. I'm going to call her out on it whenever I see it.

[daybranch]

309. Women think of men as a homogenous group in too many cases.

Did you ever notice that when a woman is getting a divorce , she says I hate men whereas a man says I hate her? It clearly implies that when one man is guilty, all men are guilty. Some women spend so much time understanding men, and yet they forget we are individuals too.

[Amaril]

362. Right

Men who are going through an emotionally traumatic event, such as a divorce, NEVER say "I hate WOMEN"..........

Come on. Yes they do. I've heard men say it -- my male friends have said it TO me (and, yes, I am a woman). I don't take it personally, of course, because I'm not completely narcissistic.

Sea has made herself VERY clear, SEVERAL times, that when she says "men" she does not mean, nor is she implying "ALL men". Why some people persist in beating her about the head over something she hasn't said and doesn't mean is beyond me.

[chervilant]

296. Why am I not surprised?

I used to have him on my IL--which I purged recently, since so many on my list have been tombstoned. I have sexists, misogynists and verbal bullies on my IL, and it makes DU a much better place. After I've finished this thread, I'll likely add 3-4 more...

[EOTE]

189. And pretty hilarious that you'd mention my "history of hidden posts".

Have you taken a look at the poster you're defending? It seems like she's got me beat. Good one, though. I'm sure you'll be chastising her any minute.

[chervilant]

295. Awwww,

you sound like some of my seventh graders. "I know you are, but what am I!?!" is one of their fave memes.

Please consider my adjuration herein above: a defensive posture about rape is not necessarily good or advisable.

Also, bear in mind that resources are available to help you. I would encourage you to read

Against Our Will (Brownmiller)

The Best Kept Secret (Rush)

Ending the Silence (Thorne-Finch)

Blaming the Victim (Ryan)

These would be a good start. You might also want to view "The Bro Code," which is an excellent documentary about how patriarchy locks both genders into power imbalance and misogyny.

[Marr]

324. It's particularly galling when you consider the way

some people seem to use/abuse the alert button.

I'd have to agree with you on the poster in question. She regularly makes the most vulgar, sickeningly sexist comments, but somehow it's just fine.

[Katashi_itto]

190. +10000

[seabeyond]

191. you give a thumbs up to raping a woman unconscious? 1000 worth of thumbs up? nt

[Katashi_itto]

194. Only you would try to take this out of context.

Brilliant!

[seabeyond]

197. i asked. no answer? then it is saying raping an unconsious woman is saying sex with drunk wife is

rape?

those two are the same to you? the exact same? one JUST like the other?

see.... i ask. considerate person than i am. instead of making up stories.

he stated i have claimed having sex with a drunk wife is rape.
the post he provided said, having sex with an unconscious girl is rape.

those are the same for you?

[EOTE]

198. Are you saying that it's a man's wet dream to have sex with something that doesn't move?

Because I don't even have to insidiously twist your words around in order to suggest you said that. You see, you say actual disgusting and offensive things all the time and I don't even have to put words in your mouth or just make shit up entirely to show that you say those things, they come out of your actual head. Pretty sick, huh?

[EOTE]

199. Unconscious girls don't tell the people they're having sex with to not stop fucking them.

This really is a simple concept here, but I know how you need to have extremely simple things explained to you. One day you'll understand. I'll make sure of it.

[Katashi_itto]

202. Just the same old thing eh? I don't play your games. Spin it however you like.

[seabeyond]

208. fuck.... give a thumbs up. i ask what the thumbs up is for. you backpedal and blame and

insult.

wowsers.

[EOTE]

211. He/she was giving a thumbs up to your comment about men dreaming of fucking inanimate things.

So you should be proud. I mean, that's not in any way horrifically sexist. Wow, you sure do know men well.

[seabeyond]

215. backpedal, change the goal post from what you accused me of. nt

[seabeyond]

223. no. sex with drunk wife is rape. that is what you accused me of. that is what i said i never said

you did not find a post where i said it is rape if the wife is drunk.

anywhere.

and i really do not walk away from the comment that men get off raping the unconscious....

[EOTE]

224. Ahhh, OK. So you think that sex with a drunk woman who is NOT your wife is rape.

But as soon as she becomes your wife, then it's no longer rape. Just wanted to be sure that's how you feel.

Sex with a drunk woman who's not your wife = rape.

Sex with a drunk woman who's your wife = not rape.

Just wanted to make sure I understand you here. And you can continue suggesting it all you want, but unconscious women don't tell you to keep fucking them. How ridiculously stupid.

[seabeyond]

227. fucking an unconscious woman is rape. you want to make a blurred line, that is on you.

the movie wants to blur the line, that is on entertainment. moriah wants to throw in consent to raping an unconscious, that is hers. in a society where our boys and men are raping unconscious girls, putting it on the net, seeing it as fine and not an issue.... that is unconscionable. you do not see that? that is your issue. and if you are going to defend fucking an unconscious woman, i do not see how you can then be offended when i make the comment men get off fuckin an unmovable body. that makes you a hypocrite.

[EOTE]

228. And what about fucking a woman who asks you not to stop fucking her?

Is THAT rape? Because we're not talking about what you're talking about, we're talking about something completely different. Of course, if you had to actually debate things that people actually said rather than the shit you make up about them, you wouldn't get anywhere, would you?

So, if in that scene the man had been having sex with his wife, you'd all of a sudden think it's not rape because what? Men can't rape their wives or something? What YOU are doing is unconscionable. If you brush aside your searing hot hate for one minute, you'd see that.

[seabeyond]

234. i am not having a stupid conversation that makes date rape, ok. you posted, i said, it is rape to

have sex with a wife that is drunk.

i said... i have never said that.

i have never said that.

you bring in a conversation about a movie that made date rape, fuckin an unconscious woman ok.

i gave you my opinion on the movie that blurs the line fucking an unconscious woman. and why i have a problem with it.

done.

you failed. you refuse to admit you failed. you have done nothing but insult and accuse me of shit. you act all outraged by getting off fuckin unmoving body. as you validate the act of fuckin a body that does not move.

[EOTE]

238. So, would your position be this?

It's OK to have sex with a drunk woman ONLY if she's your wife, otherwise it's rape? I actually expect an answer to this question.

Because you are definitely saying that it's not OK to have sex with a woman who's NOT your wife if she's drunk. I'm not insulting you, I'm providing the ACTUAL words that you've said. It's not my fault that the words you say are so incredibly ignorant it's insanely easy to destroy them.

So once again, you think it's rape to have sex with a drunk woman who's NOT your wife, but as soon as she becomes your wife it's OK. On top of that, you think it's a man's dream to fuck inanimate objects. Just making sure that I understand you here. You can't refute a single thing I've said because you've said it all.

[seabeyond]

240. i really do not give a flying fuck what you expect. you accused me of soemthing. you were wrong.

you then shifted the goal post and attacked and insulted me and personally attacked me thru out your cutsey little disgusting subthread. so i really dont give a fuck what you expect.

i expect you to admit you are wrong. i know i wont get it. like is a bummer.

[EOTE]

243. Like hell I was wrong.

I said that you consider drunk sex to be rape, I PROVED that. Now you're saying that it's only because she wasn't his wife that it was rape and if she HAD been his wife, it wouldn't be rape. Now you're effectively saying that a wife can't be raped by her husband. That's a whole new category of horrific, sexist bullshit, but we won't get into that now. I wonder what all your little followers in the HoF will think when they know that your definition of rape changes when two people get married. Sickening.

[EOTE]

241. And are you SERIOUSLY not able to understand this?

I am suggesting that having sex with a woman who is not moving yet says "Don't stop fucking me." is not rape. Just because I don't think it's rape doesn't mean it's something I'd like to do. Comprende? Of course not. But you saying that all men want to fuck things that don't move IS horrifically sexist. Comprende? Of course not, if comprehension were something you had a handle on, I wouldn't need to teach you this extremely basic shit hundreds of times over. Comprehension just isn't your thing.

[seabeyond]

242. i am SERIOUSLY not reading your garbage. nt

[EOTE]

244. And not reading anything else by the looks of it.

You should try it sometime. You might find it helps to put together cogent sentences.

[whopis01]

308. It could be rape. It depends on the situation

If you are talking about a woman who is so drunk or under the influence of drugs to the point where she doesn't know what she is doing then it could be rape.

[nomorenomore08]

330. A certain percentage of men, unfortunately, yes. Your meaning is pretty clear to me at least.

I don't know why some posters choose to believe that you're tarring the entire male gender with that brush. If it doesn't apply to them - if they, like myself, have never sexually assaulted anyone and never would - then why the defensive, almost guilty reactions? Doesn't quite add up if you ask me...

[Katashi_itto]

260. Lol!!

[Marr]

326. What you just did there really ought to earn you a ban, imho.

Intentionally misrepresenting another person's position-- particularly in such an offensive way as that-- really should earn a poster some time away.

[Bradical79]

165. I did a search, and only found him saying the opposite in the past.

I did a quick search to see if I could find what he was refering to. Didn't find people saying what he claims, but Leftyohiolib clearly understands what consent is:

" 'She didn't affirmatively say no' so she couldnt say yes either"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022494238

So I don't know what exactly he is arguing, unless he thinks being married makes the rules of consent different or flat out misunderstood what someone was saying.

[seabeyond]

168. interesting...

and wow on your skills searching. i can not do that shit for the life of me.

but, ya. hm. good to know he gets it, anyway. that really is what is important.

[leftyohiolib]

263. no what im saying is that if my wife and i are at home and are drinking and we have sex that

somehow im raping her even if she initiates it. that is what was said and that,s ridiculous

[leftyohiolib]

258. no im saying that if my wife And i get drunk and SHE wants to have sex that ( not that i dont )

i am somehow raping my wife.

[seabeyond]

278. is your wife unconsciuos, comes to and slurs, why ya stooo.... and falls back to unconscious? cause

that is what the men are talking about in this subthread equating me to saying you are raping your wife. having been married and ahving been drunk i would never say hubby raped me. but then he was not have sex with an unmoving unconscious body. when i say what you are talking is not screwin an unconscious woman, they tell me that because i called out a fictional movie about a woman that is unconscious, wakes for 2 sec and falls back unconscious, is what you are talking about.

does this offend?

[leftyohiolib]

287. no my wife was never unconscious. my oringinal post was in reference to the thread in which

that very thing was said, having sex with a drunk woman was rape b/c by being drunk she was in no condition to consent. it is not NOT ok to have sex with an unconscious woman.

[LanternWaste]

297. Or without consent...

" it is not NOT ok to have sex with an unconscious woman..."

Or without consent...

[leftyohiolib]

303. well of course

[leftyohiolib]

254. yes there was a very lengthy thread here a day or two ago

[JackInGreen]

361. Apparently

and I'm kinda glad I've missed it.

[Aerows]

65. If your wife isn't interested in sex with you

when you get drunk, but you force her to have sex with you anyway...

lace that shoe up and wear it, because it fits.

[arthritisR_US]

78. You hit the nail on the head! :) nt

[Aerows]

89. Maybe he could try staying sober for a change

before initiating sex. Odd concept, I know!

Off Topic: How are you doing, my friend? Hope things are going well for you, and that you and yours have a good holiday!

[arthritisR_US]

124. You stated it so spot on!

It's been a really trying year, and my daughter and I just aren't into puting up any Christmas decorations. We are both into celebrating the New Year and being rid of 2013! Hope you are well my friend and that this is a wonderful season and time for you

[Aerows]

351. It's going fairly well

and I hope that you and your daughter have a better year, my friend

[EOTE]

159. Who the fuck is saying anything about forcing sex on anyone?

People who chime in with this offensive bullshit that no one is talking about reveal far more about themselves than the people they're attacking. Are you capable of thinking about two people having sex without thinking about rape? That's kind of sick and disgusting.

[Aerows]

312. If one of those people

is too drunk to consent, it is rape. The post I replied to opened the door to that one, not me.

[leftyohiolib]

255. oh i see where u got that let me fix that, not when i got drunk but when we, wife and i,

got drunk or are drinking she's more of a drinker than i. sorry i wasnt more clear.

[Aerows]

313. I don't see where I was "hating"

I made the statement that if someone is too drunk to consent and you have sex with them anyway, it's rape.

Implied consent because someone has had sex with you in the past has ended up very badly for many people. Just something to consider.

[leftyohiolib]

341. maybe i misjudged your post for that i apologize and i chngd the post

[xulamaude]

321. "i know to alot of women men are always pigs in any situation so keep hatin"

What?? Does this have something to do with something?

[Supersedeas]

349. spot on

[Bradical79]

153. I don't think people are saying that at all

Post a link to the discussion. Been here a long time. Never seen that once.

[leftyohiolib]

342. yea it was during a disscussion on rape a few days ago but i didnt comment on it so now it cant find

it. before dec 16

[Aerows]

350. Me either

I just see a lot of defensive crap that has nothing to do with the original post. If you get bent out of shape and put a bunch of words in people's mouths when all they say is "If someone is drunk and you have sex with them anyway, it is rape", then that seems to me that maybe you really aren't sure if what you are doing is wrong or not (which probably means it IS).

[chervilant]

178. I'm offended by your apparent need to

derail this thread by denigrating those of us who are concerned about the rapists who violate individuals who are too drunk (or incapacitated in any way) to "consent." (Just an observation: a defensive posture about rape is not necessarily a good or advisable position.)

Perhaps you would consider educating yourself about rape? If so, please read the following:

Against Our Will (Brownmiller)

The Best Kept Secret (Rush)

Ending the Silence (Thorne-Finch)

Blaming the Victim (Ryan)

These would be a good start. You might also want to view "The Bro Code," which is available to view online.

[seabeyond]

2. i know both my boys have been offended many times over by this mentality. and they do NOT

have a problem speaking up and out

takes after their mama.

[sheshe2]

4. that does not surprise me in the least seabeyond.

you must be so very proud of them!

[seabeyond]

11. sigh...

i am

16 and 18. so very easy. making good choices. a joy. and teenage boys, lol. more fun than a lot of adults.

the work and foundation young, makes later years incredibly easy.

thanks sheshe

[WillyT]

3. + 1,000,000,000

& Rec !!!

[iandhr]

5. Preach

[sheshe2]

6. thank you Triana. nt

[freshwest]

7. That stuff is demeaning to men. It says they are mindless animals...

'Rape apologists' should consider what they are saying about themselves. Just sayin'

[arcane1]

8. Ain't that the damn truth.

It's similar to radical Islam, where men are these eternally child-like, blameless beings who can't be held responsible for anything they do, and must be always coddled.

This man hates it.

[AlbertCat]

26. It's similar to radical Islam,

And fundie Christians

And orthodox Jews

And

and


&


&

[XemaSab]

9. trudat

n/t

[NYC_SKP]

12. Recommended!

Truth hurts, great post!

[pipi_k]

13. That also

Applies to just about any situation where someone is blaming his or her bad behavior on someone else's words, deeds, or appearance

But yeah...keeping to the subject matter here, men should be ashamed of the implication here that they're all nothing but uncontrollable, brainless beasts

[Old and In the Way]

14. It's a no-brainer...if a woman doesn't want sex...

then there should be no sex. What am I missing?

[xulamaude]

15. The irony is that it's (historically) men

who say that women should and should not do this or that to 'protect' themselves from rape.

I don't ever recall a woman claiming she raped a man because he was scantily clad, or was walking alone in a dicey neighborhood, etc.

[Old and In the Way]

18. As a man, it is easy...woman doesn't want sex

there should be no sex. What's difficult about this?

[AlbertCat]

28. What's difficult about this?

Because Rape is not about sex.... it's about CONTROL

It's about making someone do something they don't want to do.

[phil89]

166. well

isn't the part where the man climaxes about sex?

[gollygee]

182. .

Where in a healthy relationship, people become sexually aroused together, rapists become sexually aroused by forcing themselves on people who don't want them. So the charge is from making someone do something they don't want to do - from raping rather than from having sex with someone.

[niyad]

195. welcome to du. you might want to check out the books listed upthread to have a clearer

understanding about what rape is, and is not.

[phil89]

343. Thanks

But I know what rape is. The question is whether or not it's about power. I don't think that it is only about power.

[Hissyspit]

311. No.

[phil89]

344. SO

How is an orgasm not sexual?

[xulamaude]

33. But what about rape?

Should a woman just tell her potential rapist that she doesn't want to be raped?

[Major Nikon]

16. Is this offensive?

While you can never completely protect yourself from sexual assault, there are some things you can do to help reduce your risk of being assaulted.


•Be aware of your surroundings. Knowing where you are and who is around you may help you to find a way to get out of a bad situation.
•Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.
•Walk with purpose. Even if you don’t know where you are going, act like you do.
•Trust your instincts. If a situation or location feels unsafe or uncomfortable, it probably isn’t the best place to be.
•Try not to load yourself down with packages or bags as this can make you appear more vulnerable.
•Make sure your cell phone is with you and charged and that you have cab money.
•Don't allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don’t trust or someone you don’t know.
•Avoid putting music headphones in both ears so that you can be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you are walking alone.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention/avoiding-dangerous-situations

[xulamaude]

19. Are these guidelines regularly distributed to men in oreder to be

'safer' from rape by women?

[Major Nikon]

22. They are published by the largest American anti-sexual assault organization

Free to anyone who wants to go to their web site and view them, regardless of gender.

[xulamaude]

29. Yes, I am quite familiar with RAINN

but these guidelines seem to be primarily directed towards women.

My question was: do men require the same guidelines to protect themselves from female rapists.

[Common Sense Party]

34. Those are good guidelines and cautions for everyone.

We should ALL be aware of our surroundings and plan ahead. It isn't just about rape. It's all crime--and crime can happen to anyone of any gender. Yes, it would be wonderful if there were no bad people out there who mug, or rob, or assault, or rape. Unfortunately, some people haven't gotten the memo about being civilized members of a humane society. Thus, we should ALL be cautious.

[xulamaude]

39. Rape is not anything like the other crimes you list.

Being mugged usually happens in a public space. Robbery is a property crime. Assault is closer to rape but generally speaking does not include a sexual component.

Have you ever been the victim of any of these crimes?

[Common Sense Party]

43. I'm referring to these bullet points:

•Be aware of your surroundings. Knowing where you are and who is around you may help you to find a way to get out of a bad situation.
•Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.
•Walk with purpose. Even if you don’t know where you are going, act like you do.
•Trust your instincts. If a situation or location feels unsafe or uncomfortable, it probably isn’t the best place to be.
•Try not to load yourself down with packages or bags as this can make you appear more vulnerable.
•Make sure your cell phone is with you and charged and that you have cab money.
•Don't allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don’t trust or someone you don’t know.
•Avoid putting music headphones in both ears so that you can be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you are walking alone.


They are good advice for anyone. Are they not?

[bettyellen]

50. well, it doesn't help at all with much more common acquaintance rape, does it?

it really gives people the wrong idea- that people you "know" would never rape you. More harmful than helpful to many.

[Major Nikon]

54. So are you saying it's helpful to ignore the 1/3rd of rapes committed by a non-acquaintance?

From the same web site...

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1


He's not Hiding in the Bushes
More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.2

•4 in 10 take place at the victim's home.
•2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
•1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.
43% of rapes occur between 6:00pm and midnight.2

•24% occur between midnight and 6:00am.
•The other 33% take place between 6:00am and 6:00pm.
The Criminal
•The average age of a rapist is 31 years old.2
•52% are white.2
•22% of imprisoned rapists report that they are married.2
•Juveniles accounted for 16% of forcible rape arrestees in 1995 and 17% of those arrested for other sex offenses.2
•In 1 in 3 sexual assaults, the perpetrator was intoxicated — 30% with alcohol, 4% with drugs.3
•In 2001, 11% of rapes involved the use of a weapon — 3% used a gun, 6% used a knife, and 2 % used another form of weapon.2
•84% of victims reported the use of physical force only.2
Rapists are more likely to be a serial criminal than a serial rapist.
46% of rapists who were released from prison were re-arrested within 3 years of their release for another crime.4

•18.6% for a violent offense.
•14.8% for a property offense.
•11.2% for a drug offense.
•20.5% for a public-order offense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

[CSStrowbridge]

59. The original bullet points...

The original bullet points are pretty useless, when that's all the advice given. However, RAINN give a lot of comprehensive information about rape.

[Major Nikon]

105. The premise in the facebook meme makes a blanket statement

It posits the notion that...

1) Men should be offended by rape risk management guidelines presented to women

2) Such guidelines assume men are incapable of control

I don't agree with either.

[bettyellen]

93. Yep, I am saying it is a bad idea, in that it gives a VERY inaccurate picture of what rape is

I think this is part of the reason we have so many people making the "rape rape" distinction.
It's common sense advice for everyone, not much of it is specific to the problem of rape itself- so it is woefully inadequate.

[Major Nikon]

104. I'm not sure how it's inadequate

RAINN's web site includes all sorts of information, including that which I provided. What exactly do you think they are missing?

[xulamaude]

60. I asked a simple question. nt

[Common Sense Party]

75. Which was a deft attempt to change the subject from what I had posted.

I was referring to the bullet points. You are not, for some reason.

[xulamaude]

83. I'm flattered that you find me "deft"

but I was not discussing RAINN bullet points with you.

I originally asked you if you had been a victim of any of the following crimes: rape, mugging, robbery or assault.

Remember that the OP is about rape.

[CFLDem]

40. Men (in general) don't require the same bullet points

because very few female rapists tend to be physically dominating over the average man.

In my personal experience, female rapists tend to be the types who have trouble getting dates due to physical and/or mental issues.

[xulamaude]

44. I'm not sure what you mean by

In my personal experience, female rapists tend to be the types who have trouble getting dates due to physical and/or mental issues.

Female rapists are 'crazy' or 'disabled' and couldn't get a "date" otherwise is the way I'm reading that.

[CFLDem]

45. With the caveat of my female rapists. nt

[xulamaude]

47. Still not clear on what you're saying. nt

[Major Nikon]

42. Your questions seem to be rhetorical

So I'm not sure you really expect an answer here.

I asked if the RAINN guidance is offensive. I am genuinely interested in knowing and if so why. I can tell you that I'm not offended by it, but I don't speak for everyone.

[xulamaude]

46. My question is not rhetorical at all.

I'm asking you what you do you think. As a man.

Are these guidelines helpful for men when thinking about their actions in relation to the threat of female rapists?

[Major Nikon]

52. Neither was mine

[xulamaude]

58. Okay - I'll go first but I'll expect answer from you:

I am offended that I live in a world where there is a "need' for these guidelines.

Beyond that, I am offended that these guidelines are presented as 'gender neutral' when rape statistics do not bear out any neutrality at all.

[Major Nikon]

76. You didn't answer the question

You answered a question that was not asked.

So I'll ask again.

Do you think the RAINN guidance is offensive?

It's a yes or no question and I don't think it's a false dichotomy.

If you care to answer directly I'll be glad to answer directly any questions you have.

[xulamaude]

86. Please. I did answer your question. Your turn:

Are these guidelines regularly distributed to men in oreder to be 'safer' from rape by women?

[Major Nikon]

103. Then you are saying you are offended by RAINN's guidlines

I just wanted to be clear because I didn't want to misrepresent your assertion.

For your question the simple answer is yes. These guidelines are distributed to everyone who cares to visit RAINN's web page. I have no idea how long they have been there, but I saw them a few months ago so they have been there for at least that long and the web site appears to stay up 24 hours per day. I'd have to say that's pretty regularly. I think it's safe to assume RAINN intended the guidance to be gender neutral since no gender is mentioned. As far as what RAINN's motivations are, you'll have to ask them as I am not a spokesperson for RAINN.

[xulamaude]

106. As I said, I am very familiar with RAINN

and you are misrepresenting my non-take on their guidelines. To repeat myself, I said I was offended by a world in which there was a need for any such guidelines, not the guidelines themselves.

And since you're not a spokesman for RAINN, and I have answered your question, you'll be kind enough to allow me to amend my original question to this:

Are these guidelines helpful to men in order to be 'safer' from rape by women?

Please remember that the OP is about rape.

[seabeyond]

109. women dont rape men. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

114. They most certainly do.

[seabeyond]

115. yes. 1% of rape is committed by women. 99% rape is committed by men.

you got me

98.8% of forcible rapes we committed by men.

http://conversationsonthefringe.com/2011/01/05/violence-is-a-male-problem-part-1-of-2/

[Behind the Aegis]

116. It wasn't a matter of "got you," it was a matter of you presenting FALSE info.

[Major Nikon]

120. It doesn't seem to be anything more than a red herring to begin with

Women can also rape other women. Not accounting for everything in between, with 2 different genders you have 4 different possibilities which is simple logic. The gender of the offender is pretty much irrelevant to the victim. The effects are the same. You have physical injuries and/or mental injuries which one would expect from a crime of violence. That's why RAINN's guidance is gender neutral to begin with. They are more concerned about the victim rather than the offender.

[Behind the Aegis]

122. It is one of the reasons I like RAINN.

The sex of the offender can have importance, but usually only for statistical reasons. I will say though, it does seem that to some, the sex of the offender and the victim do matter, and they shouldn't.

[seabeyond]

127. ya. it matters to pretend that 99% of the rape is not done by men. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

271. It matters to that "1%".

But maybe they aren't "real" victims, right?

[seabeyond]

279. i have long before you called out the woman teachers raping their boy students along to the chides

from men.... oh what i would not have given to have my teacher rape me. well before any man decided to use this as a counter to 99%. well before it ever came onto your radar.

[Behind the Aegis]

284. I am not chiding. You made a false statement.

Rather than just saying you were wrong, you made it into something else all together. As for my radar, you don't know anything about me.

[seabeyond]

126. 99% of rape by men and gender is not a factor? rape by other women? new porn fad? cause i know,

that one is so scary. all over the place. women raping women. i would say 1% of women raping and woman on woman rape is really the red herring.

[Major Nikon]

138. Do you think that factor makes the victim any more or less of a victim?

I don't care if it's 99.9999%. Rape is a particularly heinous crime because it preys on the most vulnerable and quite often leaves it's victims with lifelong psychological scars. The gender of the offender or the gender of the victim does not make the victim any less of a victim. I'm pretty sure the reason it's a red herring is why RAINN made the guidance gender neutral. Do you have an alternate explanation? I just don't think the idea that RAINN had the motive to shame men or women is a very good one.

[seabeyond]

140. i think you actually address the rapist and not all of society. yes. nt

[seabeyond]

141. and then tell me nikon, when women do implement this men are outraged that a woman dared to

think a man could possibly be a rapist. you know, a stranger. not wanting to walk with a stranger in a dark alley, wary of the stranger in an elevator at 4 am asking her back to his room. walking on the other side of the street when a strange man approaches. men were throwing a fuckin FIT... all outraged, that a woman would DARE DARE to be wary of a strange man.

on the one hand you men are demanding we protect self with these silly guidelines that has nothing to do with most rapes. then on the other demand we ignore so we do not insult your ego, cause you arent a rapist after all. stranger yes. but she should know you are not a rapist. and then on the other hand... pissed when men are addressed as the rapist and message directed at men.

you arent seeing a disconnect with all this?

[Major Nikon]

143. I addressed that at the time to you directly

It's not up to me to tell anyone what they should or should not feel. I said at the time I can certainly understand why some people would feel that way.

None of this changes the value of informing people of the risks and suggesting how they can mitigate it.

[seabeyond]

145. you address women as a whole accepting this. you do not address the men as a whole who are both,

offended by a psa directed toward men, the rapists and offended when a woman implements these practices being given cause we should just KNOW which stranger is a potential rapist or not.

again

YOU are leaving it totally on women to magically correct, prevent, recognize the rapist, take ownership of rape without once addressing men.

yes. that is offensive.

[seabeyond]

146. be careful what you wear to prevent your rape is not to offend women. thru out the thread, look at

the men offended suggesting they should be bothered thought of an uncontrollable rapist due to what a woman wears.

the victim being told to prevent her rape by what she wears is NOT to be offended.

not ONE time have you addressed any man that is saying they are offended by the broad brush, they are offended by this message.

not one time. yet here they line up offended.

and you do not get .... why a woman may be offended when she is told she can prevent her rape. all she has to do is dress more modestly.

[Major Nikon]

152. The RAINN guidance included no such recommendation

So throwing that out there, pretending that's what I'm talking about, and then arguing from that basis is...

[seabeyond]

154. which was EXACTLY my point like... last night. no shit. yet it is what is in the Op and what

people are grabbing and what we hear from society as a whole often. so do not deny that we women are not told our dress is the cause of our rape.

[seabeyond]

155. and STILL you do not address the men offended on this thread, men offended when PSA is addressed

to men, 99% of the rapist, when men are offended when a woman implements rainn.

why oh why... would the po men be offended when a woman crosses the street and does not want to be in an elevator alone with a man at 4 am in the morning hitting on her.

why oh why are the men offended at this simple OP

why oh why are men offended at a psa addressing rapists......

instead of how a woman can prevent her rape.

[chervilant]

192. You might want to reconsider your position.

It is VERY relevant that the vast majority of rapists are men. This does NOT denigrate or dismiss those survivors who've been assaulted by women. However, it DOES illustrate the damages to both genders of the socio-cultural construct we call "patriarchy."

I've given multiple lectures on relationship violence over the years, and I quickly learned to use 'gender neutral' terminology in order to help the men in the audience actually hear the information I shared, without getting defensive or angry.

[LadyHawkAZ]

306. Did you bother to check the FBI reporting standard??

This was the reporting standard for the 2010-2011 stats you quoted:

The carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Rapes by force and attempts or assaults to rape, regardless of the age of the victim, are included. Statutory offenses (no force used—victim under age of consent) are excluded.

Shocker: the majority of people raping women, since that was the sole reporting standard at the time, in 2010 were men! It didn't change until December of 2011, when it changed to this:

"Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

which still pretty much just covers male aggressors, unless she stops to shove something in him.

Please just stop. This is not an issue for either side to be playing little gender games with, and it's all through the thread, but that comment was especially egregious. Be the better person, and just drop the line of thought.

[xulamaude]

235. "The gender of the offender is pretty much irrelevant to the victim."

That is, unless she is impregnated.

Is that irrelevant?

[Major Nikon]

251. Which is why qualified the statement with "pretty much"

MIT tells us that about 5% of female victims that are between the ages of 12-45 get pregnant from rape. There are a lot of victims who don't meet that criteria like females who are younger than 12, older than 45, and all of males. I'm reasonably certain the incident rate of pregnancy for that group is significantly lower. So it's not hard to imagine that if one considers all rapes, the absolute percentage of pregnancy as a consequence would be some figure lower than 5%. "Pretty much" seems to apply, no?

So the answer to your question is "no", that is not completely irrelevant nor did I claim it was.

Now that's two questions of yours I have answered directly and you have yet to answer one of mine directly. I'm still patiently waiting, however my patience for those who have no interest in good faith discussion has its limits. For future questions I'll probably just refer you here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4187963

[xulamaude]

253. Crazy-making. nt

[xulamaude]

113. At sorority parties, in a parking garage or ally, at work,

in their own homes, in nursing homes:

Are these guidelines helpful to men in order to be 'safer' from rape by women?

Yes or no will do.

[xulamaude]

117. Well then, I've waited long enough.

[Major Nikon]

119. Then you never answered my question

I asked you a very simple yes or no question. You have yet to provide a yes or no response. I could certainly understand not answering yes or no if it was a loaded question or a false dichotomy, but I'm fairly sure asking someone, "is this offensive" is pretty straightforward. From your perspective it either is or it isn't. I don't see where the middle ground comes in. Your original response led me to believe you were offended because your first three words were, "I am offended" and nothing else that followed indicated an opposite response.

Now you are saying, "not the guidelines themselves", which wasn't included initially despite your claim otherwise and might lead one to believe your answer is 'no', but until you provide me with a yes or no answer I'm not going to guess again and I'm going to consider the question unanswered.

You claimed to have answered my question, but you have still left me guessing as to what your answer is, so I'm not really inclined to answer any follow up questions on your part. Doesn't seem like good faith discussion to me.

Just sayin'

[seabeyond]

131. people have told you why it is offensive to talk about womens clothes, which rainne never did. yes.

it is offensive to suggest what a woman wears has a bearing on her being raped. that puts the ownership on her, and it is bullshit, and it is a false security that what she wears has any relavence to being raped. yes... that is offensive. yes, that gives ammunition to her fault, look at what she wears. yes it is a subtle ... you can rape cause look what she wears. not overt. so yes... offensive.

will i tell my niece to pay attention to surroundings? yes. and still if my niece gets raped? well hell, she paid attention all the way up to and thru out the rape. woopy.

and when the rapist climbs thru the window and rapes the 76 yr old nun. ya... what?

the reason this is an issue is really, it is pretty damn worthless.

the gender of the rapist is insignificant? bullshit. the message needs to be to the boys and men. that simple. adn to all of us when to speak out, since so many of our kids do not seem to recognize they are allowed or are suppose to speak up when seeing a group of boys raping an unconscious girl, instead of videoing it and putting out on the net.

[Deep13]

305. No, we don't.

And I agree with the implicit criticism that it is not up to women to stop criminal behavior by men. Still, if a man commits a rape, while it will be entirely his fault, that will not prevent the female victim from bearing the cost of that crime. So, if there are things one can do to prevent herself from being a victim, why not do them? In the meantime, I will continue to be adamant that part of the social construction of masculinity is self-control. Boys must be taught that sexuality is not a competitive sport and that girls are not goals for their scoreboards.

[Warpy]

88. Why do they continue to put the onus onto women?

Where are similar guidelines issued to boys and men to prevent raping someone?

The only way to prevent it is to sit dressed in a burqa in a home with barred windows and a shotgun in one's lap.

It's not our fault. It's not our problem.

It's yours.

[seabeyond]

97. 76 yr old nun in her home. now, granted, probably didnt have a shot gun so ya... her fault

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1906&dat=19811102&id=LvAhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=A9kEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2374,4537594

[Warpy]

121. Exactly, the hussy!

It's high time men stopped publishing stupid lists of things women can't do and take responsibility for maintaining rape culture. It doesn't happen in a vacuum, guys, and we never, ever ask for it.

[Triana]

175. My blog post/article about that:

AMERICAN TALIBAN: WOMEN HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEIR OWN BODIES, BUT THEY’RE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS

http://www.sevenbowie.com/2012/12/american-taliban-women-have-no-right-to-their-own-bodies-but-theyre-responsible-for-his/

I can understand general safety guidelines ie: don't walk alone at night in dark alleys, be aware of your surroundings, etc. It's like telling people to lock their doors and windows to prevent theft. The DIFFERENCE is that when one's home is broken into, rarely is the VICTIM of the crime blamed for it - even if (s)he did leave a window open to let night air in. Even if the perp is caught and goes to court, charged with burglery, the victim (or what they did or didn't do or what they were wearing or not) isn't much brought into question.

HOWEVER, when RAPE and sexual assault is involved - when violence against a woman is involved - all that changes. Suddenly in this crime, we start questioning not the behavior of the perpetrator but that of the VICTIM. That doesn't happen in any other type of crime to the extent that it happens when the crime is RAPE or DV. It just doesn't. "She must have done something to provoke or deserve it" is the default attitude when the crime is violence against women.

So yea, I can understand why guys think these general safety guidelines are non-offensive. For OTHER types of crimes, they are. For the crime of RAPE, they are offensive. For the reason I stated in the paragraph above. Because until and unless the RAPIST and ONLY the RAPIST is held 100% responsible for his own behavior and choices - no matter WHAT the woman was or was not doing/wearing/whatever, or where she was or was not, then women do NOT have access to the justice or freedom that other humans have in this society.

When our home is broken into, NO ONE questions (to any great extent) the behavior of the home's occupant. NO ONE blames the occupant / resident of that home for that crime. Not the police. Not the courts. Not society. Is that true when a rape occurs? NO.

And that's why it's offensive.

Should women take precautions? YES. Should they have to? NO. And if they don't once, and something happens, is the woman at fault for the rapist's/assaultist's behavior? NO. Of course not.

But everyone in this thread knows as well as I do that no matter what the woman did or did not do, no matter where she did or did not go, no matter what time of day, no matter what she was or was not wearing, if she was raped or assaulted, SHE would be held primarily responsible for what happened to her.

THAT is the difference.

[AlbertCat]

30. 'safer' from rape by women?

They didn't have any gender mentioned in them that I can see.


But remember, the homo sapien male is often bigger and stronger and more aggressive than the female. Biology, y'know....

[ismnotwasm]

96. No but it sure is fucked up that it's considered nessisary

By every collage campus I know about. Including my place of work

By default, that says there are rapists everywhere, and women need to beware.

I carry a razor with me at all times. I'm told that won't matter-- a rapist will take it from me and use it against me. I say "you don't understand, it's a very cheap razor, I intend to stick it in at a precise point between ribs or failing that a major blood vessel (I'm a nurse and I know about such things) break it off and run like hell. Think I'd go to jail for pre-meditation?

And here is the ultimate guide for rape prevention

[Major Nikon]

123. Thank you for a straight answer

As yet you are the only one who has provided one. I'm not going to tell anyone what they should or should not be offended by, but I don't understand how anyone could be offended by such guidance. I agree it's fucked up that it's necessary. It would be great if nobody ever got raped, but people do and as such I think it's helpful for people to understand what the risks are and how they can mitigate them. It's no different for any other crime of violence. That doesn't mean other pragmatic solutions shouldn't also be employed and I think there's other strategies which can also be helpful.

[seabeyond]

133. because major, every one of us women that have been raped know this "guidence" is bullshit and not

the issue. it places the ownership of rape on the victims shoulders. inevitably none of these htings have a damn thing to do with rape. it is a womans responsibility to not be raped.

seriously dude. seriously. you cannot see the problem with this? cause it is not like you and others on du have not been told repeatedly what the problem is.

now.... you tell me what the melt down is from MEN when PSA puts ownership of rape on men? state answer. why do men have such a huge issue with ownership of rape, preventing rape being laid squarely on mans shoulders? why do men flip out all over the place when rape is addressed with the men?

do tell.

you say... (which i highly doubt) that you do not get why women have the problem with ownership of her rape being put on her shoulder becuase of what she wore or any number of things she did not do right.

why do men have a problem with ownership of rape being put on his shoulders

99% of rape are by men. i say women do not rape men.

boom.... women do, they do, they really do. say women rape. even women raping women.

NINETY NINE fuckin percent are men raping.....

for the purpose of this discussion, that would be, men are the rapists.

[Major Nikon]

147. It does no such thing

Telling people to lock their doors at night does not put all of the responsibility of home invasion prevention on their shoulders. It's just one strategy out of many to reduce the incidence rate of the crime. If you have a genuine interest in reducing the rate of incidence of rape (and I'm convinced you do), then you should be able to see the value in this guidance. I don't believe RAINN is saying this should be the only strategy to prevent rape, or even the primary one. RAINN is a victim advocacy organization. As such people will go to their site to try to understand how to reduce their risk. Do you think this is a bad idea?

[seabeyond]

149. i do tell my niece to be aware and i KNOW that will likely have NOTHING to do with her rape.

and i tell her it will have nothing to do with her rape cause the majority is a date, with a man that we trust. the majority are in a family unit, with a man we trust.

it has NOTHING to do with a way women are dressed. that is HARMFUL to give this to our women, and more harmful to give to our men. and especially offensive to men.

but... you deny this. you would rather be offended that a woman suggests.... it is offensive to suggest a man be offended that dress is whether or not they will rape.

post after post, i direct it to men. post after post you ignore man. 99% of rape is doen by men. yet you ignore that factor absolutely. then tell women not to be offended when they are given stupid ass little rules that does not keep them safe.

[Major Nikon]

169. I'm ignoring no such thing

What I do find offensive is the allegation that I am denying or ignoring it. It's untrue and defamatory. I don't defame you. I don't think it's too much to ask for the same consideration. You are alleging all sorts of things that I never claimed, not even once.

You are smart to tell your niece to be aware. I have a daughter that will be going to college next year and I have already shown her the RAINN website which she can use to mitigate her risk. I've never once told her what she should or should not wear, nor would I. I teach her how to use good judgement and let her make her own decisions. Giving someone more information about rape is not unhelpful and the idea that it should be is moronic. At some level you seem to agree. What is also moronic is the suggestion that everyone should be offended by this guidance. It posits the idea that this information is bad and shouldn't be disseminated which most certainly is unhelpful and counterproductive to reducing the incidence of rape. The idea that less rape is a good thing is not really that hard of a concept to grasp. The idea that we can't tell people how to mitigate their risk while simultaneously employing other strategies is a false dichotomy, it's stupid, and it's dangerously wrong.

[seabeyond]

170. how many posts have i ASKED about the contradiction and STILL you do not address it. only how a

woman should prevent her rape.

you want to give you daughter real info on how to "prevent" her rape in college? it is not this little rainn. i assure you. that would be the conversation i had with niece that will help her. that is not all warm cuddly and fuzzy for man. that is ultra insulting to men. have that conversation with your daughter and you MIGHT give her something valuable.

[Major Nikon]

187. So that's your opinion

For which you are certainly entitled. Everyone has an opinion. Some are more relevant than others. On one side we have the opinion of an anonymous poster and on the other side we have the opinion of the largest and most respected victim advocacy organization on the planet. Which one do you think is more relevant? The answer is not that hard for me. There is no question my daughter received information that is valuable. There is no might to it. I could really give a shit less if someone is offended by it.

[seabeyond]

200. so. again. the contradictions i have stated in a number of posts are ignored. nt

[chervilant]

316. Since your daughter is going to college next year,

have you checked with her chosen college to determine what protocol they have in place for preventing rape, or providing services to students who are raped?

Do you think you might try to understand the concerns of those of us who advocate for survivors, who work to help survivors overcome the guilt and shame they might feel for 'putting themselves at risk,' or 'wearing the wrong thing'?

I hope you might find ways to disagree about this issue without calling someone moronic...

[Major Nikon]

319. Read post upthread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4187987

I'm not telling anyone how they should or should not feel. Individuals are certainly entitled to their own feelings and some people may have victimization or are close to someone who has been victimized. As such they may have a completely different outlook which is perfectly understandable. I get that. However, the meme in the OP is positing the idea that all men (if not everyone) should be offended by those (like RAINN) who provide rape risk mitigation advice. This is dangerously wrong.

[xulamaude]

322. Guess who's not answering the simple question?

Have you looked into how your daughter's college of choice handles "victimization" on campus?

[Major Nikon]

325. Because my private information is not up for dissemination

It's the same for most other DUers. I don't entertain questions about my own private information and much less my daughter's. I realize you are new to DU (or perhaps a repeat customer) and may not understand this.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting and wondering why you refuse to answer a straightforward yes or no question. Your silence speaks volumes, BTW.

Just sayin'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4187963

[xulamaude]

333. No one asked you to divuldge the college you have chosen for

your daughter - good heavens.

Only asked if you have looked into the "victimization" protocol at any/all of the schools she's interested in...

[Major Nikon]

335. And I referred you back to the question you have yet to answer

[xulamaude]

336. Asked and answered, counselor.

That I did not answer the question the way you wanted me to is not my fault.

Also, just for the record, there's a question of mine that you've not answered at all...

[Major Nikon]

337. And I doubt any of your other questions ever get answered

I answered two of your questions directly and succinctly already even after your refusal to answer mine.

If you don't want to answer the question, more power to you. As you noted, I was asked questions that I didn't answer. I had no intention of answering them. But neither did I expect answers from the person I replied to. The fact that you can't see the difference also speaks volumes about you. Your non-answer tells me all I need to know about you which is you either aren't interested in good faith discussion or have no concept of it.

[xulamaude]

338. "Good faith discussion", eh?

What exactly is a good faith discussion?

[Major Nikon]

339. You could google it

[xulamaude]

340. Yes I suppose I could...

It's been another completely unproductive day between the two of us BUT it has been good for page counts and post counts alike

Until next time & Happy Holidays.

[chervilant]

345. I don't get that

"the meme in the OP is positing the idea that all men (if not everyone) should be offended by those (like RAINN) who provide rape risk mitigation advice." The meme of this OP is that when someone claims that women should prevent rape by not wearing certain things or not going certain places or not acting a certain way, that all men should be offended--because these 'preventative actions' presume that men are "so base and uncivilized that it takes extraordinary effort for you to walk down the street without raping someone," and that "you are incapable of control."

I would encourage you to watch the documentary "The Bro Code," and think about what your daughter is facing as she heads to college. Did you know that 54% of college-age men surveyed admitted that they would rape a woman, if they were certain that they wouldn't get caught?

If a rapist targets me, what I wear, where I go, and how I act have no bearing whatsoever. I wish that our species would focus on teaching our male children that they should not rape (yes, I know: women are rapists, too... ).

[Major Nikon]

346. We should do whatever reduces the incident rate of rape

Regardless of whether it offends anyone or not. I hope everyone can agree on that.

[chervilant]

347. Okay,

if that's your stance, then I suggest that you expand your knowledge of patriarchy and rape. Perhaps you would consider reading the following:

Against Our Will (Brownmiller)

The Best Kept Secret (Rush)

Ending the Silence (Thorne-Finch)

Blaming the Victim (Ryan)

These would be a good start. You might also want to view the documentary "The Bro Code," which should be required viewing for our college students.

[Major Nikon]

348. I've already read one out of your list

I've also read Dworkin's Intercourse, which is along the same lines along with quite a few other similar things. I've also read quite a few other things that you may or may not have like books by sex-positive feminists, criminology studies, statistical data sets, and criminologist profile studies of who is most likely to be on the victim and offender side of the issue.

You shouldn't always assume you are better read than everyone else, particularly when the material you are suggesting I read is hardly all that diverse.

[chervilant]

352. There you go,

being all defensive again. I don't share resources because I 'assume' that I'm "better read than everyone else." I share resources because I am an advocate, and have been for better than thirty-five years. I hold a master's in Sociology. I have created and facilitated numerous support groups for survivors. I have lectured numerous times about relationship violence, and was among the first to assert that high school and college students are experiencing relationship violence as often as are marital and conjugal partners. I am myself a survivor, which both informs my advocacy and affords me many opportunities to achieve further insights about my own recovery.

Your responses herein above suggest that you've a woefully inadequate understanding of rape, rape culture, patriarchy and feminism -- especially concerning since you have a daughter. Your defensive posture suggests you're not open to exploring the resources I've suggested. That's okay. I may share resources, but I don't demand that those for/with whom I do advocacy use those resources just to placate me.

I encourage you to consider that whatsoever you work the hardest to push away (deny), often is the very thing you most need to scrutinize.

[Major Nikon]

353. Your intent was pretty clear

You were belittling my responses, assuming I'm taking a position that I'm not, and then floating the idea that I just need to better educate myself because you obviously know better. You obviously have no idea who I am, what I believe, and what I do or do not support. If you did you're realize your assumptions about me couldn't be more wrong. Your concern is noted and not solicited or desired.

Cheers!

[chervilant]

354. You just cannot get outside

your defensive box, can you? Sad, really...

Again: I encourage you to consider that whatsoever you work the hardest to push away (deny), often is the very thing you most need to scrutinize.

I hope you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[Major Nikon]

355. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024187202#post345

The only thing I'm denying is the box you're working so hard to put me in. The sad part is your strong need to put me there in the first place. Perhaps you should be more concerned about your own boogeymen rather than your fallacious perceptions of others.

Just sayin'

[seabeyond]

151. you want women to be hypervigilent at all times to protect themselves from rape. you KNOW

what you give women.

yes. we are. we are aware of this. and when we discuss the fear, the hypervigilence, the fear walking down the street and the sexual harassment we get and the fear it instills, as we are hypervigilent to PREVENT our fuckin rape, we are dismissed by you very men.

do you know, KNOW how it changes our girls to shift into a hypervigilence to avoid rape at all times. do you get how it effects women. ahev you ever considered the world women walk always being aware, fearful, watchful for her rapist.

my god major. a little thought here.

[MadrasT]

136. Yes it is.

No woman on the planet needs to be "instructed" about these points. Not one.

[Major Nikon]

142. I'm not going to say this guidance shouldn't be offensive to you

But I just have a hard time understanding why it would be offensive to anyone, including men. I certainly have no problem with showing it to my children and already have. I don't believe telling people what the risks are and making suggestions on how they can mitigate that risk is unhelpful. The same is true for any category of crime so what makes rape any different in that regard? Remember also that this guidance is not gender specific and the RAINN website also includes several other types of guidance.

[CrispyQ]

196. I am certain #4 saved my young butt a couple of times.

My Mom told me, "If you feel uncomfortable, get out. Don't worry what people think. Do what's right for you. Get out."

I always followed the first three, too. And if I had children, I would give this to them, regardless of gender, but if I had a daughter, I would tell her what my mother told me. In our culture, young women are supposed to be 'nice' & a lot of predatory types play on that. "Here let me help you with those bags." "Thanks, but I've got it." "What, are you too good to accept help from me?" One rapist got into a young woman's apartment this way. And she will be mostly blamed, because she was raped, but if she had been robbed, people would dismiss her bad judgement.

What a cesspool our culture is. Raising a decent human being must be such a challenge these days.

[Major Nikon]

256. Anyone who blames the victim for being victimized probably meets the criteria of being an asshole

Yet you have those who want to claim that providing information as to where the risk lies and how to mitigate it forces all the responsibility of rape prevention on the victims, which is ridiculous. Furthermore promoting this ridiculous idea has the effect of discouraging entities like colleges from providing this information to those who stand to benefit from it the most. I'm pretty sure that probably meets the criteria of being an asshole as well.

You are absolutely correct. We should be telling people who are most likely to be at risk how to mitigate that risk. Part of that includes giving them information on the profile of those most likely to rape and what their tactics are. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to do whatever they want. When you step out your door, you accept all kinds of risk. Knowing what that risk is and how to mitigate it is helpful. It doesn't mean you should never step foot outside your door, nor does it mean if you chose to do so that whatever bad thing which may happen as a result is your fault.

[seabeyond]

257. then you will tell your daughter to be wary of the stranger in elevator at 4 and when asked

to go to room, be extremely vigilant. and that when men bash her on the net for being unfair to the poor asshole cause he was just trying to make the first move like he is expected to, NOT to cut the man any slack at all.

step off the elevator and wait for the next, regardless of the message the man receives.

[Major Nikon]

259. I'm not going to accept what any libelous poster tells me what I will or won't do

Nor am I going to spend much time worrying about it. So I think you're wasting your time here, but it's your time to waste at least for the next few days.

Just sayin'

[seabeyond]

264. you want to give it to the woman, and stay well away form men even having a part. yet....you

want to come off as having a reasonable conversation. yet, when reality is given to you, you refuse. yet, you say ask, do not assume. yet, you refuse to answer.

[Major Nikon]

268. Did you ever answer my question on post #16?

Because if you did I missed it, and instead you have chosen to jump in the middle of that leg of the thread and make all sorts of cheap allegations about me which aren't true, then you claim I won't answer your questions which are clearly loaded questions to anyone who smart enough to recognize such useless rhetorical traps.

So when you refuse to answer relevant questions and demand answers to those which aren't, I really don't think I'm guilty of refusing to engage in good faith discussion with you even without your flagrant defamation and far less so with it. It also provides ample evidence that one of us has no interest in "having a reasonable conversation." It isn't hard to figure out who that is even to the casual observer.

Just sayin'

[xulamaude]

270. More crazy making. nt

[Major Nikon]

277. You've repeated this twice

I'm not sure exactly what it means. I find it subliterate at best and juvenile at worst. If you wish to engage in something that resembles substantive discussion(and I'm not convinced you are), here is a guide you may find helpful.

[xulamaude]

282. You don't know what "crazy making" is?

You could google it.

[Major Nikon]

285. Thanks for the help

sub·lit·er·ate (sb-ltr-t)
adj.
2. Of, relating to, or being language that is dialectal, slangy, or full of jargon.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subliterate

[seabeyond]

281. no. it will contradict all you have been proclaiming. what would the question be. bring it to me

baby... cause i am not afraid. if it is the rainn question, if it is useful i have answered a number of ways in a number of posts. it hurts more than it helps and yes i give my niece the info. i also take her way beyond, to actually give her valuable info that might actually help her, that you refuse to acknowledge cause it is not pretty toward men.

[Major Nikon]

286. You haven't answered it either

As with the other poster all you've provided is a plethora of background noise without actually directly answering the question. It may be found in post #16 if you care to take a crack at it. A yes or no response is fine. Expanding on a yes or no response would be even better.

I got 4 replies, none of them were yours. 1 said no. 1 said yes. 1 provided a response which leads me strongly to believe the answer is no. 1 has dodged the question a number of times and I have no idea if they believe the answer is yes or no. I also answered it myself and explained why. For the record I don't believe either response is right or wrong.

[xulamaude]

265. There's that 'libel' again!

Oh, and was that some kind of weird, veiled threat in there too?

Far out, man!

[seabeyond]

266. he wants to give daughter only what does not encroach on male entitlement yet feel secure he

did his best to allow her to prevent rape. it is very scary sending daughters to college. we can all acknowledge what waits for 1 in 3. i can understand the need for comfort. but, not at the expense of the safety of our daughters.

to take it out on me.... now throwing a jab here and there, now that he has a woman agree, that number 4 was helpful, he is vindicated.

forget addressing any of the real issues. the burden is squarely placed on women. where it should be. that is comforting.

[Major Nikon]

272. Do you not understand what libel is?

Maliciously misrepresenting someone's position is libelous to anyone who is fully literate. You should note that I took great pains not to misrepresent yours even though you left me guessing as to exactly what you're talking about. There are several examples in this thread I can cite complete with quotes and relevant facts (not that I have any interest in doing this for someone who clearly has no interest in good faith discussion). Any threat veiled or otherwise exists only in your mind. If you don't understand this you should ask the person with whom the statement was directed. I'm sure they can enlighten you.

[xulamaude]

274. I understand what libel is. nt

[seabeyond]

283. yes saying i said a a drunk married couple a man was raping due to a movie of raping

an unconscious woman. yes. i get what that is.

thank you for standing up for me in that whole disgusting subthread. appreciate.

[seabeyond]

262. will you tell her to preceive each date as a possible rapist and to be wary. will you tell your

daughter to walk across the street when a strange man approaches her and do not worry about his feelings. will you tell your daughter to get in the guys face and yell go awya. leave me alone. regardless of his intent, cause radars went up and regardless if she is embarrassed or he is embarrassed. will you tell your daughter to make sure she has a buddy system when going to a party making sure she and friends make it home safe. will you tell your daughter, it is her responsibility to watch the other girls at the party, ensuring they get home safe. will you tell your daughter, never go to a mans apartment if she is not ready to have sex.

the real gritty stuff. the stuff that can possibly stop a rape, we can totally curtail a womans life.

what are you teaching your daughter?

and do you think there might be an imbalance how a young woman walks life to avoid rape?

you really do not see an issue with this?

[MrModerate]

17. Well, yes and no . . .

I'm offended by all the things the OP lists.

I'm also offended — appalled, really — by the fact that the human race includes men whose natural state is rapist. And that the victims of such monsters are overwhelmingly female. And that there are enough of these people that good sense means, for women, not making yourself vulnerable to them. And that the existance of such monsters even blights — and constricts — the lives of women who have never been victimized.

In our desire to not impede our mothers, wives, sisters, daughters being equal and free, we also have to remember sad facts.

[CrispyQ]

206. +1

that the existance of such monsters even blights — and constricts — the lives of women who have never been victimized.

I am appalled, too. When I read the atrocities in Africa, I wonder how can a man do that? How? Is there another animal on the planet that is that base? I don't think so. Years ago someone said to me, "If we ever encounter alien intelligent life, I have no doubt that man will be in the ranks of the most savage." At the time I disagreed, but I was young then.

[LadyHawkAZ]

307. +1

[AgingAmerican]

20. You are mistaking....

Republican males for men. Huge difference.

[Nye Bevan]

21. Well... I think when someone says this they are positing that *some* men are incapable of control,

as opposed to all men. And while I wouldn't go so far as to presume that the "natural state" of a bunch of drunken, entitled, college fraternity athletes (for example) is "rapist", it is probably a good idea for women to avoid that type of situation. (Please note that I am NOT "victim-blaming"; the only person at fault for a rape is the rapist).

[Major Nikon]

24. "On college campuses, repeat predators account for 9 out of every 10 rapes"

Profile Of A Rapist
It might seem like it would be hard for a researcher to get these men to admit to something that fits the definition of rape. But Lisak says it's not. "They are very forthcoming," he says. "In fact, they are eager to talk about their experiences. They're quite narcissistic as a group — the offenders — and they view this as an opportunity, essentially, to brag."

What Lisak found was that students who commit rape on a college campus are pretty much like those rapists in prison. In both groups, many are serial rapists. On college campuses, repeat predators account for 9 out of every 10 rapes.

And these offenders on campuses — just like men in prison for rape — look for the most vulnerable women. Lisak says that on a college campus, the women most likely to be sexually assaulted are freshmen.

"It's quite well-known amongst college administrators that first-year students, freshman women, are particularly at risk for sexual assault," Lisak says. "The predators on campus know that women who are new to campus, they are younger, they're less experienced. They probably have less experience with alcohol, they want to be accepted. They will probably take more risks because they want to be accepted. So for all these reasons, the predators will look particularly for those women."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124272157

[Squinch]

23. That's great!

[Bonobo]

25. Yup, it offends me. nt

[LanternWaste]

298. I get offended by safety guidelines at the nearby public swimming pool..

I get offended by safety guidelines at the nearby public swimming pool... it's implying that all swimmers, regardless of experience could potentially drown, and also implies that all swimming pools could be potentially fatal.

[Demo_Chris]

27. Not at all. Advice like that says nothing at all about men in general.

It is intended to help them avoid RAPISTS and other criminals.

[Triana]

36. Why not make rapists responsible for their own behavior instead? n/t

[Demo_Chris]

41. They are. Advice on how to avoid evil people does not make one responsible for the evil...

Telling Anne Frank to be quiet does not make her responsible for the Holocaust in general or for the murder of her family. The people responsible for that were the Nazis.

[CSStrowbridge]

56. There is no correlation...

There is no correlation between what a woman wears and if she will get raped. Tell women to, "Don't dress like a slut." is the same as telling the rapist, "If you see a woman who is showing off a lot of skin, go ahead a rape her. Especially if she is out in a bar without a man and had a couple drinks. Society won't blame you. In fact, we have slut shamed women so much that she probably won't even call the cops. If she does call the cops, they will harass her so much that probably won't be arrested. Rape as many women as you want, because they are asking for it."

[seabeyond]

62. if only this 73 yr old woman had not dressed so sexy, she wouldnt have been raped.

A New York City woman has harsh words for the rapist who victimized her when she was 73 years old and watching birds in Central Park.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/16/nyc-woman-who-was-raped-in-central-park-when-was-73-tells-man-to-rot-in-hell/

[xulamaude]

67. Good heavens! Don't you know it's against the LAW

to link to fox news no matter the subject?!

Lies, it's all lies!

[seabeyond]

69. ya. i know. but the easiest source found and most everyone knows this story.

figure people could deal....

[Demo_Chris]

125. All of which might be interesting if it were not self evidently false...

Down here in Texas it is common to see signs warning motorists that bridges ice before regular road surfaces. The reason for these signs is to inform and warn drivers. The signs are not intended to be insulting to anyone, let alone all drivers (as the OP suggests); it's just a sign warning that certain conditions warrant extra care and attention.

Along the same lines, people are statistically far more likely to be attacked in dark locations than in well lit ones, and they are more likely to be attacked when alone, or intoxicated, or both. I'm sure you get the point. It's just statistics. Pointing these facts out is not blaming women or condemning men. The information is not even terribly interesting or surprising.

What is interesting is the effort by some to deny that this reality exists, because -- through some convoluted post hoc logical fallacy -- they have concluded that warning of a correlation equates to assigning blame for causation. The failure here is not with reality or the statistics, but the lack of logical thinking.

[seabeyond]

139. how to prevent/avoid rape. so a woman is raped, she simply did not do enough. and NO, statistically

the girl is raped on a date or within a home environment. not out in a dark area or even intoxicated. but see.... you are changing up statistics to meet this little warning thing going on. not going off of fact.

statistically, what a girl wears has NOTHING to do with her rape. statistically, a girl wearing little has nothing to do with a man controlling his behavior or not. statistically, telling a girl she can prevent rape by dressing modestly is not correct and just plain stupid. and an insult to men. but fuck... if you want it on your shoulder that men are so helplessly out of control, that a little skin has them clawing uncontrollably at a girl, then go for it haus. personally, i will continue to stick up for a man that he is not all that.

[Triana]

180. They are NOT HELD RESPONSIBLE for their own behavior. Their victims are.

AMERICAN TALIBAN: WOMEN HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEIR OWN BODIES, BUT THEY’RE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS

http://www.sevenbowie.com/2012/12/american-taliban-women-have-no-right-to-their-own-bodies-but-theyre-responsible-for-his/

I can understand general safety guidelines ie: don't walk alone at night in dark alleys, be aware of your surroundings, etc. It's like telling people to lock their doors and windows to prevent theft. The DIFFERENCE is that when one's home is broken into, rarely is the VICTIM of the crime blamed for it - even if (s)he did leave a window open to let night air in. Even if the perp is caught and goes to court, charged with burglery, the victim (or what they did or didn't do or what they were wearing or not) isn't much brought into question.

HOWEVER, when RAPE and sexual assault is involved - when violence against a woman is involved - all that changes. Suddenly in this crime, we start questioning not the behavior of the perpetrator but that of the VICTIM. That doesn't happen in any other type of crime to the extent that it happens when the crime is RAPE or DV. It just doesn't. "She must have done something to provoke or deserve it" is the default attitude when the crime is violence against women.

So yea, I can understand why guys think these general safety guidelines are non-offensive. For OTHER types of crimes, they are. For the crime of RAPE, they are offensive. For the reason I stated in the paragraph above. Because until and unless the RAPIST and ONLY the RAPIST is held 100% responsible for his own behavior and choices - no matter WHAT the woman was or was not doing/wearing/whatever, or where she was or was not, then women do NOT have access to the justice or freedom that other humans have in this society.

When our home is broken into, NO ONE questions (to any great extent) the behavior of the home's occupant. NO ONE blames the occupant / resident of that home for that crime. Not the police. Not the courts. Not society. Is that true when a rape occurs? NO.

And that's why it's offensive.

Should women take precautions? YES. Should they have to? NO. And if they don't once, and something happens, is the woman at fault for the rapist's/assaultist's behavior? NO. Of course not.

But everyone in this thread knows as well as I do that no matter what the woman did or did not do, no matter where she did or did not go, no matter what time of day, no matter what she was or was not wearing, if she was raped or assaulted, SHE would be held primarily responsible for what happened to her.

THAT is the difference.

[BlueJazz]

31. Rape is about power and some Men think they gain some-sort-of-power by rape.

This subject is always difficult for me. I think of bones breaking and very nasty things...in short, some things should not be allowed to exist.

[mythology]

32. I just assumed my penis was defective because it's never done that

It's good to know that my little buddy isn't broken.

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. It doesn't offend me; it cracks me up with it's asinine assumptions. It's not foolish, it's idiotic.

And, anyone who thinks I should be offended by it is idiotic as well.

Sorry.

[TeeYiYi]

37. The 'rapey vibe'...

TYY

[Deep13]

38. Bingo. nt

[pipoman]

48. well..

I don't go to certain parts of town at certain times, not because everybody is out to mug me, but because predators prey more often in those places and times. . I nor the other law abiding in those areas aren't responsible for the acts of the predators, nor are all men responsible for the rapist predators we all know lurk..

[bettyellen]

99. do you not go on dates?

[pipoman]

102. Not sure what this has to do with anything I wrote...

[bettyellen]

112. because it is rape prevention advice that is worth more than that list, but it's missing from it.

Why do you think that is that this list shies away from even hinting at acquaintance /date rape?
What would a more useful (based on stats) list look like?

[pipoman]

128. I agree that date rape is a separate issue..

My response was strictly about the statement:

'Women could prevent rape by not wearing certain things, going certain places, or not acting a certain way'

I admittedly haven't kept up with this ongoing controversy. If someone is applying this statement to date or acquaintance rape, I wasn't aware. .

About non - acquaintance rape it seems like a no brainer for women (and probably men too) not to go to to those areas if it is possible to avoid them. The fact that there are predators and that some areas attract those predators more than others is being conflated into all men are somehow responsible for the acts of the few who prey..or that is how I read it, again, not having been involved in this ongoing controversy. .If I missed the context, sorry. .

[bettyellen]

314. i think it's because lists like this leave women unaware for the more common dangers- and also keep

society politely forgetting to discuss them... that less work is done to tackle the problems. And I also thinks it makes people put it in a separate category where it is not as bad because it might not have been so violent, or it was someone you sort of liked anyway. But you know, the victims often have to continue to live and work along side their rapists because having some sort of "prior relationship" gives the rapist plausible deny ability. These are the rapes that do not get reported, and it's something I think society needs to work on. I think there is a similar thing with missing and exploited children- no one like to talk about how frequently it is a family member or someone close.
So while I think it's good common sense advice for most people, it falls short by really only adressing 25-30% of the problem, likely a lot less than that. And in general, anything that tells you what not to wear (forget if that's the case here) or that women should have to behave markedly different than men is limiting, and offensive in that we are still hearing things like this from judges who blame the victim. In that context, it is maddening.

[oldandhappy]

49. good post

Please put it up in every men's dorm and fraternity on every campus/

[BainsBane]

51. Exactly!

[MarianJack]

55. I've been seeing women dress in very sexy and tantalizing ways for almost all of my 58 years.

I've ALWAYS really REALLY liked it.

I've NEVER even touched a woman when she didn't want me to. I was raised to respect women!

Yes, I am offended by the notiOn that Eseing a lady in revealing attire will somehow make me into a lustful beast who can't control my caveman-like urges.

I equate it with the notion that many homophobes have that just because another man may be gay, they can't stop themselves from jumping after their miserable little noodles. JEEZIS!

PEACE!

[geek tragedy]

57. true misandry nt

[seabeyond]

64. this is what i say. i say i am defending men all the friggin time. yet i am the man hater.

while the men dont defend their own gender. leaves me baffled.

i just know too many good men not to stand up for them.... each. and. every. time.

i agree.

[nomorenomore08]

331. +2

Yet the ones who cry "misandry" the loudest will never recognize it as such.

*Edit: corrected grammatical error.

[xulamaude]

63. So cleavah. nt

[LeftyMom]

66. It's a good thing DU doesn't have a misogyny problem.

[TDale313]

70. Seriously. Just wow.

[seabeyond]

71. only pretty girls deserve to be raped? seriously. wow. nt

[TDale313]

80. Well, jury hid that one, fortunately.

5-1 to hide. But still... Ugg.

[seabeyond]

84. yes they did. results.

At Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:00 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

I'm only offended when the woman is vain enough to be fearful I'd rape her .....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4187643

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

This is really over the top and sexist. To suggest a woman is too ugly to rape. Only the pretty ones are worth raping. Highly offensive in so many ways.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:10 PM, and voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Dude. C'mon.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Really? Don't be "that guy." Ever. Especially not out in the open for the rest of us to see.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

[BainsBane]

94. I wish they would insist people provide an explanation

Why would someone not vote to hide that?

[seabeyond]

98. we have had too many people declare they will never vote to hide a post. for different reasons.

cause they did not get a vote hidden. because they believe anything should be allowed. ect... oh, and the obvious? misogyny.

[BainsBane]

72. No, of course not!

[TeeYiYi]

92. Omg, that is so cute!...

...I can't quit watching it and laughing.

TYY

[flvegan]

68. So if I think that a woman should not go certain places, because of what happens there, then my

natural state is a rapist? Not that I think that it wouldn't be her fault, just we as humans should avoid certain known dangers.

That I am "so base and uncivilized" that I can barely help myself from raping someone? That maybe, because I can't help myself, "just maybe (I) won't rape someone"?

I'm offended that you posted this. I'm your biggest defender. I'm the one who would be quick to beat the shit outta the guy making the attempt, and frankly have been. But I'm the rapist, in my natural state.

Okay, good luck with that. Moreover, I'm offended by broadbrush bullshit Facebook icons posted places that allegedly have thought behind them, but in reality fucking don't. Why? Because the poster hasn't tried to understand what said bullshit things are actually saying. I know this because I can read (even we alleged natural state rapists sometimes have that ability). Emotion is a funny thing.

[LeftyMom]

74. Hon, I love you, but women can go anywhere we fucking want.

[flvegan]

82. Didn't say that.

I get to have the opinion that it's not a great idea that a woman go certain places under certain situations. Much like I would have with any man, child or otherwise. I mean, we do still get to have opinions about what is or isn't a bad idea, right? For example, were I to hear a woman say that she's going to get coked out of her mind, lather herself in baby oil and go chill in some seedy motel room rented by some dumbass pimp, I can't say "hey, that's a bad idea, you probably shouldn't do that based on what could happen."

If not, fine, I'm just a rapist...in my natural state.

[BainsBane]

81. Do you mean on dates?

Because that is how most rapes occur. Not in "certain places" you happen to think look dangerous.

[flvegan]

85. The OP didn't mention "dates" it was a more broadbrush, wide open accusation.

Regardless of statistics, I'm sticking to responding to the OP.

[BainsBane]

91. The OP didn't mention the location of assaults at all

You did. You assumed that women shouldn't go places you think are unsafe. I'm telling you that most rapes occur on dates. Stranger rape is a minority of sexual assaults.

[flvegan]

100. Really? You should re-read the OP.

Your desire to be outraged is noted, considering. Let the record show that the OP stated "not going certain places"

"certain places" being location. Once again I'll ask if I no longer get an opinion on what I think is a bad idea. I didn't assume shit. I suggested that going to unsafe places can be a bad idea. I'd say that to a man, child, Boston Bruin...the unrelated word salad that happened after what you assumed I thought...I can't help you with.

[LeftyMom]

95. I think you're misreading the intent.

What the image is saying is that "rape prevention" education that focuses on curtailing the freedom and mobility of women works on the assumption that men are predatory. It's saying "don't look like a seal because the sharks can't help biting if you do" as if men were sharks. As such it should be viewed as offensive to men. (It's also very bad as a prevention strategy because almost all rapes occur between people who know and previously trusted each other, but that's neither here nor there.)

A better strategy would focus both on teaching women to protect themselves in more likely scenarios and on establishing enthusiastic consent as a minimum standard for going forward for both men and women.

You don't need to be defensive because you're awesome. This is an ongoing cultural conversation, fwiw.

[bettyellen]

107. very well explained. thank you.

[LeftyMom]

110. Thanks.

[flvegan]

108. That might be what we want it to say, but that's not what it says.

But I digress. As the woman in this relationship who I respect at the highest level, I bow to your intelligence, your knowing what's best for both sides of the argument.

But man, you should have totally seen the t-shirt ready response I had. Dammit!

[LeftyMom]

111. When I rule the world every social movement will communicate effectively.

Everybody hurry up and make that happen, would you?

[ElboRuum]

363. Yeah, this may take a while.

I looked into it and, DAMN, is there a shitton of paperwork involved!

[christx30]

73. Rape isn't about base

or primal urges. It's not sex. It's about control. Dominance. "I can do this to you and you can't stop me." That's why 15 year old idiots on X-Box cheerily talk about rapping other players.
If rape is about sex, then smashing someone over the head with a frying pan is about cooking.

[arthritisR_US]

77. You are dead on! Thank you :) nt

[LeftyMom]

79. Can somebody please post the jury results for post 61?

One juror voted to leave it and I'd fucking love to hear their reasoning.

[seabeyond]

87. it is up there lefty. nt

[LeftyMom]

90. "no explanation given" I should have known.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

118. I'm tired of the broad brush used to describe men.

It comes back to "do you still beat your wife?"

I am offended by someone blaming the rape victim, just has much as I am tired of (personally) because I am 6'2", 245 of solid muscle and bench 355 lbs that I will attack a woman simply because of my size and strength.

[FatBuddy]

129. your infographic presupposes

that all men are the same.

we all know this is not the case.

you are displaying anti-male bigotry.

[Recursion]

130. I hear that BS argument in India all the time

My only response is that if men are so incapable of self control then it sounds like women should be in charge.

[The2ndWheel]

135. If most rapes happen on dates or between people who know each other

then why would good general advice for anyone be offensive? Most men aren't raping women while walking down the street, and it's probably not taking extraordinary effort to do so.

Bad things will happen to people, but if you don't put yourself in certain situations, or take some sort of precaution, you at least decrease the likelihood to some extent of something bad happening. I doubt too many adults need to be told that anyway.

Decent general advice for a specific act(raped while walking down the street) that apparently doesn't happen all that often. Why should I be offended as a man?

[Soundman]

164. Well said.

Not too mention in the world we live in there are probably (in all likelihood) a contingent of men out there that get uncontrollably horny looking at woman in burkas. One of the most frightening statistics I learned from this is the likely hood of being raped by a friend. Not much you can do to deter that.

With that being said the majority of woman that I have talked with that opened up about rape have told me they were molested by family members, which really boggles my mind. I don't know why, but I always assumed that guy sees girl walking down the road, guy grabs girl and rapes her. Guess that is far less common than I assumed.

[joeglow3]

137. I love ignorant things like this

Lets me know who is incapable of intelligent thought.

[aikoaiko]

150. And the jury results are in...

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
At Tue Dec 17, 2013, 08:49 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I love ignorant things like this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4188343

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:03 AM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Rude and insensitive. There are other ways of expressing your opinion.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Meh. The response refers to the image in the OP. Lighten up, alerter.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I read this response as the poster indicating the original op shows how ignorant people can be. It could have been articulated a bit better, perhaps.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The whole thread is a hot mess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[joeglow3]

181. Jurer #2 gets it

The original graphic is intentionally obtuse. I should be able to hand over my social security number to anyone who calls me and asks for it. However, reality is that many people will use that information to steal my identity and/or money. Thus, should I not teach my children that you do not hand that information over? Am I condemning all of mankind as thieves by giving my children that advice. Of course not. That is insane. I am merely educating them that there are evil people out there who seek to do them harm. Take certain percautions to avoid potential damage. I NEVER said it was fair or that they should be required to take these steps. It is merely prudent to do so.

Likewise, there are people who will rob you if you are walking in a seedy neighborhood, at 2:30 in the morning, with a couple thousand dollars in hundreds, counting it in your hands in the middle of the street. If I tell my children not to do this, am I condemning all people in the city? All people in a high crime neighborhood? Am I doing something wrong if I educate them on areas where certain crimes are statistically more likely to occur?

A coworker and I were in Vegas last week for training. We stayed at Mandalay Bay and found the hotel/convention center extremely nice. When we took a trip to Fremont Street since he had never been there and seen the lights, I told him to move his wallet to his front pocket. I told him that I had heard a rumor (don't know if it is true or not), that thefts are higher there because people can be in a tight crowd, with many looking up the lights, making pick-pocketing much easier. I don't know if the stats are true, but it is CLEAR the environment is much more ripe for this type of crime. By taking this extra precaution, did I condemn everyone in downtown Vegas to be a thief? Do I now consider myself a thief, since I too was downtown? Of course not.

And just because I teach my daughters to be safe in certain environments, I am not condemning all men to be rapists. This graphic in this thread is laziness at its best. Some ignorant person wants to FEEL superior, so they think this accomplishes it. All it shows is they are incapable of intelligent thought and are more interested a cheap feeling on superiority that any rational discourse.

[gollygee]

193. The difference is

that if you get pickpocketed, no one will say, "Well you should have known better than to go there." The police won't decide not to pursue the case because it was really your own fault for keeping your wallet in your back pocket. If it does go to court, you won't get a bunch of questions about why you decided to go to that area and why you kept your wallet in your back pocket and whether you had fantasies about being pickpocketed or were hoping to give money away to someone.

Rape is treated differently from other crimes in the criminal justice system. If it weren't, then the public safety warnings about what not to do and where not to go wouldn't bother me. But with how rape is treated, those warnings feed the problem.

[joeglow3]

219. Actually, they are treated the same

My car was broken into and the police did nothing. Why? Because it would be impossible to determine who did it. People watch WAAAAAY to much crime drama on tv.

If you were pick-pocketed, odds are you would see the same result. The exception would be if the person started using credit cards and they could get actual evidence.

I have heard people say EXACTLY what you claim they don't: if you didn't want to get jumped, you shouldn't have been hanging out there. If you think all those things you claim don't exist in fact don't exist, you have a LOT of living to do.

[gollygee]

220. Impossible to determine who did it

is NOT the same thing as being able to determine who did it but thinking you were dressed in a way that makes it clear you wanted sex, therefore there's no reason to pursue rape charges against someone who raped you.

[joeglow3]

276. There is NO WAY you could scientifically believe that is true

Sure, as with anything in large numbers, more and more scenarios become probable. And we all know there will be highly visible examples. That said, I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe there is a huge problem across police departments of letting rapists go because of the clothes the woman was using. And I am not going to level that charge at an entire population until I see an objection, scientific study that says otherwise.

What I HAVE seen is many examples of having a VERY good belief that someone committed a crime (rape, in this case), but there not being enough evidence to meet our high standard (which is a good thing) needed for conviction.

[gollygee]

289. If you had spent much time listening to victims

you would not say that.

[joeglow3]

290. You equate that with burden of proof needed for a conviction

I have zero doubt there are plenty of victims (just as there of other crimes) who KNOW they were victimized and want/need to see punishment. However, that does not automatically equate to the evidence needed to convict someone. Certainly doesn't prove that there are police departments across the nation letting rapists go because of the clothing choice of the victims.

[gollygee]

291. Are we in court?

I'm talking about rape victims being told that their rapists will not be brought to trial where the burden of proof would become an issue. This happens to many rape victims. "Are you sure you want to press charges?" "Are you sure this wasn't some kind of misunderstanding?" "Maybe you want to sleep on it and come back tomorrow and see how you feel then."

[joeglow3]

292. That happens, I have no doubt

You have yet to prove that this is some systemic problem to the point that we are supporting a "rape culture" if we warn our daughters of avoiding scenarios where their statistical likelihood of being victimized is greatly increased.

[gollygee]

293. I feel no burden to prove it to you

Either you see it or you don't. My guess is that if someone you love went through it, you'd be more apt to see it.

[joeglow3]

294. Someone I loved went through it

And I know she would not lie about it. However, she was drunk and waited too long for any toxicology reports and they were drinking alone. Thus, to an objective observor, there was no evidence to dispute his claim that she wasn't drunk and it was voluntary.

All that said, I don't feel like I am supporting her rapist because I warn of potential dangerous situations to avoid.

[xulamaude]

301. Why was it a dangerous situation?

That she was drinking alone with a man?

[madokie]

144. It does offend me

Women are not objects, simple as that.
Woman is my equal

[svpadgham]

148. How about be an adult

And don't get offended by some trivial, poorly worded imagined slight.

[pampango]

161. Isn't this the essence of the strict Islamic dress code for women. Men cannot control themselves

if women do not cover themselves from head to toe. I would hope that we are beyond that.

[seabeyond]

163. and the republicans. and the men that pornify all women for their entertainment. no,

we are not past this. further, i would suggest as a society we haev gotten worse. hence the step up and need to continually repeat.... what a woman wears does not cause her rape.

sad

really

[niyad]

213. read post 201, with quotes blaming jyoti singh pandey for the horrific gang-rape that ended her life

[seveneyes]

162. Disgusted more than offended

Focus is better set on getting the violent people out of society where they harm others.

[Dash87]

167. Presuming all men are rapists in a culture is advantageous for misogynists and the patriarchy.

It gives men a free pass and sets low expectations of them. "Oh, he raped someone? Well, boys will be boys and she should have (whatever to avoid getting sexual attention or something)" - how many times have we heard this said? Notice that, the more misogynist and lop-sided a society is power wise, the more women have to change their lives to avoid provoking men. Also, in these societies, men are assumed to be rapists as a natural state, where as in fairer societies, men are not assumed to be rapists.

What I'm saying is, the "men's natural state is being a rapist" meme came from the patriarchy because it excuses misogynist, bad behavior. Instead of directing the rage where it should be, the rapist, it asks us to treat the rapist like a child, unable to control himself or his emotions. How convenient for the patriarchy as a mechanism of keeping women as an underclass, am I right?

[seabeyond]

172. perfectly said. thank you. post 151. no one would dare address. but it is the reality we give

girls and women and them blame them for living that reality. at the very least, men should be flexible, fluid enough to get it.

[Triana]

177. +1 n/t

[laundry_queen]

248. You are right. nt

[niyad]

201. a few quotes from rape culture

a few quotes from rape culture


Mukesh Singh, Vinay Sharma, Akshay Thakur and Pawan Gupta denied the charges. On 10 January, their lawyer, Manohar Lal Sharma, said in a media interview that the victims are responsible for the assault because they should not have been using public transportation and, as an unmarried couple, they should not have been on the streets at night. He went on to say: "Until today I have not seen a single incident or example of rape with a respected lady. Even an underworld don would not like to touch a girl with respect." He also called the male victim "wholly responsible" for the incident because he "failed in his duty to protect the woman".

. . .

An author for the South Asia Analysis Group explained the protests as expressions of middle-class angst arising out of a collapse of a social contract between them and the liberal state. New Delhi has the highest number of sex crimes among India's major cities. Police figures show a rape reported on average every 18 hours; reported rape cases rose by nearly 17 percent between 2007 and 2011. Only one of 706 rape cases filed in Delhi in 2012 ended in conviction. Between 16 December and 4 January, 501 calls for harassment and 64 calls for rape were recorded by the Delhi Police, but only four were followed up by inquiries. The regional program director for U.N. Women South Asia said, "There are rape cases in almost all cities and rural areas, where the victim dies immediately because of the brutality of the crime ... This time, it was like, 'Wake up.'"
Reactions
. . .

Sheila Dikshit, Chief Minister of Delhi, said that she did not have the courage to meet the victim and described Delhi as a "rape capital" in interviews. She said that senior police officials should be held accountable for the failure to take adequate measures to stop such incidents and called for "immediate setting up of fast-track courts to try rape cases and to get justice in a time-bound manner".
. . . .

Speaking out against the protesters, president Pranab Mukherjee's son Abhijit Mukherjee argued that the women protesters did not appear to him to be students saying,"What's basically happening in Delhi is a lot like Egypt or elsewhere, where there's something called the Pink Revolution, which has very little connection with ground realities. In India, staging candle-lit marches, going to discotheques...I can see many beautiful women among them – highly dented-painted... I have grave doubts whether they're students..." Spiritual guru Asaram Bapu provoked criticism from the public by saying that the victim was also to blame for her own assault because she could have stopped the attack if she had "chanted God's name and fallen at the feet of the attackers"

. . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape

[niyad]

203. one would think they would be, but it never seems to dawn on them, as they defend this kind of

woman-hating nonsense, that that is exactly what is being said.

[seabeyond]

207. totally amazing. demand the woman accept how not to be raped. dont address the contradiction of

the men being offended in this thread. offended when a PSA addressing rapists is made. offended when women actually apply the rainn points by being wary of a man that he might possibly be a rapist.

total contradiction and a refusal to answer the contradictions. just a continual drumming that women must change their behavior to prevent rape. they must live a life of hypervigilence. and NEVER, i mean NEVER allow the man to feel that she might be wary of him cause that will hurt his feelings.

[niyad]

218. and, of course, the usual derailment of the discussion to make us forget the woman-hating that

is the heart of patriarchy and blaming the victim

[seabeyond]

226. yup. nt

[Egnever]

205. seems pretty dumb to pretend men's natural state isn't rapist

We are all still controlled by our lizard brain to one extent or another. What's stupid is ignoring the fact that there are a lot of men out there who still can't control that impulse.

The graphic is stupid.

[seabeyond]

210. of course they can control. they choose not to. that simple. nt

[Egnever]

212. takes nothing from the fact that our natural state is rapist.

Stupid graphic is stupid

[seabeyond]

229. i do not think mens natural state is rapists. so we disagree. now, some would say me thinking men

are not naturally rapist is being a man hater. whatever.

[gollygee]

233. I completely disagree with that

Most men do not have to hold themselves back from raping.

[lumberjack_jeff]

216. So let me understand this.

Men should be offended when RAINN gives personal safety advice to women, but not offended when DU posts, again and again and again, exhortations to DU'ers to stop raping?

[seabeyond]

237. or. women should not be offended when told how to prevent their rape. yet, men are offended

by this very post. they are offended when a PSA addresses the rapist. they are offended when women implement the rainn points by avoiding the strange man walking on other side of street. or are wary at 4 am in an elevator alone with a stranger that asks her back to his room. because it hurts the mans feelings.

tell me how that works lumberjack.

[niyad]

247. it offends you that we have to keep posting about the way patriarchy treats rapists and their

victims? it isn't as though this crime, and the mindset that permits it, has gone away. so, until it does, until there are NO MORE rape victims, we will keep posting. see post 201.

[lumberjack_jeff]

273. I find it intriguing when I'm told what I should and should not be offended by.

The resulting degree of outrage when I pick wrong is also pretty predictable.

Most of the crap I get is based on my insistence to choose for myself.

9 out of every 10 rapes on college campuses are perpetrated by repeat predators. Those individuals responsible for 90% of rapes will NOT be reached by the PSA's exemplified by the stuff I linked. The best rape preventive approach is to prosecute the perpetrators and to provide women the tools they need to avoid and protect themselves from their predation. The fact that victims self-report 60% fewer rapes since 1994 shows that this approach is working.

Much of the attempt to assign collective guilt through "rape culture" rhetoric is counterproductive, and I think it is likely to lead to increased victimization through the idea that self-protection and situational awareness are irrelevant.

[niyad]

323. and yet, we are told what we may or may not post because it offends you. funny how that works.

you keep posting the same stuff over and over again, yet get pissed off because of what we choose to post. again, funny how that works. believe me, we understand perfectly. but, keep trying, some day, someone other than the usual suspects will actually believe you.

by the way, if these posts offend you, there is a simple solution.

[lumberjack_jeff]

327. The "simple solution" is to push back.

You can post it. I can disagree with it. Funny how THAT works.

The thing is, what I'm suggesting has reduced rape. Telling young women that self-defense and situational awareness are inappropriate will lead to more.

[niyad]

329. the simple solution is for the rapists to stop raping. PERIOD.

[Beacool]

221. Hear, hear!!!

I've been saying something similar for years. It doesn't matter what a woman is wearing. If a woman is walking down the street naked, that doesn not entitle anyone to rape her.

There have been many times when the victims of rape were basically told that they deserved it for wearing a revealing outfit or for being out late at night or for whatever other asinine reason. In some occasions the courts have violated rape victims almost as much as the actual rapist.

A rape occurs when someone (not only women as children and men get raped too) is forced to engage in sex without their consent or is coerced into giving that consent. The vast majority of men are not rapists.

[Vashta Nerada]

225. It seems as though the point of this graphic went well above many people's heads.

[sibelian]

246. Oh I think a lot of people get it... I just don't think they feel obliged to respond to it

on it's terms. The graphic has a subtext as well as a surface meaning.

[seabeyond]

249. ya. first you were for until you decided you were suppose to be against. i saw. nt

[Zorra]

245. It takes a certain degree of empathy, self-awareness, and ability to project for

someone to comprehend why they might be offended when someone claims that women should prevent rape by not wearing certain things or not going certain places or not acting a certain way.

It also takes a certain degree of empathy, self awareness, and ability to project, to understand why Triana posted this graphic.

The graphic in the OP would not antagonize any rational, informed person who understands its intent.

[seabeyond]

252. a thread women are told we must not be offended taking responsibility preventing our rape. yet, men

have yet to tell us why they get to be offended that the Op would dare suggest they be offended being told they cannot help themselves be rapists. nor the repeated questions to men asking them why they get to be offended with a PSA addressing rapists. why they get to be offended when women follow the rainn, treat strange men warily. avoid them in dark and unpopulated areas. concerned when on an elevator alone at 4 am and a strange man asks them back to his room.

i am saying, a thread of men telling women we should embrace being told not to wear anything too revealing so we can avoid rape.

and that women are not to address rapists. or be wary of being isolated with a strange man cause it hurts mens feelings.

we need to prevent our rape and men are not to be brought into the subject.

i am amazed at the disconnect allowed. especially by those that are looking for a serious conversation about this issue.

[The2ndWheel]

267. Who doesn't treat strange men warily?

Who doesn't want to avoid pretty much anyone in dark and unpopulated areas? Who is on an elevator at 4am, and if someone is on one at that time, why would anyone want to talk to anyone?

[seabeyond]

269. there have been threads both in gd and mens group saying how unfair it is women treat men like this.

THEY are not rapist.

men have a huge issue with women saying all men are potential rapists since we do not know the men that rape or not. hat would be the end of the world. not a single man on this thread will acknowledge women have the right to be wary, cause in the past they have argued women do not have that right, it hurts their feelings. i have asked a handful, and all have refused to answer. because it will contradict what they say in the past

there was a whole thread in mens group about an incident in elevator at 4 am. they thought the woman mean to the man asking her back to his room. they thought us women unfair to call him out.

then they tell us we are responsible for our rapes. hence, the disconnect

[The2ndWheel]

280. I can't speak about the threads on here

You'll have to link to those.

There are certain situation where a man's feeling could be hurt out of collective suspicion. 4am on an elevator wouldn't be one. Neither would in a dark unpopulated area. Even as a man, I wouldn't want to talk to a strange man or woman that came up to me in a dark unpopulated area. I'm a grown man, and I'd be less inclined to get on an elevator at 4am if there's some stranger on it already.

[neffernin]

315. Not to be nitpicky

"not a single man on this thread will acknowledge women have the right to be wary"
All women have the right to be wary. Nearly every women I've been close to including family has been sexually assaulted at times and sometimes by family. The world's a sick place sometimes.

"cause in the past they have argued women do not have that right, it hurts their feelings"
You keep arguing against "they". This is a very common debate tactic to try to prove a point called the straw man. People create an image of their opposition that is above and beyond and warped because it is easier to debate than the actual facts of the debate itself.

"because it will contradict what they say in the past"
I know I'm more logical than most, but I have no problem in changing my opinions on things. The facts I know change, as does my opinion as I learn more facts. I imagine the same goes for many though.

"then they tell us we are responsible for our rapes."
Some men say this. But I've yet to see it in this thread.

Honestly I find it pretty offensive that you lump ALL men as "they" in what your opinion is. This is why I don't post here much, its this kind of trolling that makes DU a fairly unkind place to people who don't have the time to post 50 posts a day. Well I'm saying this for the men here, any instance of a man raping is that man's fault. He is 100% responsible for his actions. There may be factors that lead to him making that choice but that choice is his alone.

If you want to make the world a better place, stop trying to convince a bunch of like minded people, especially liberal men, that they are all potential rapists. Instead, spend your time and effort helping women understand how to avoid situations where these kinds of things are happening AND support groups for those who have been targeted. Put in community service time helping underprivileged youth in some way that positively benefits them so they don't turn out to be rapists. Think of what you are trying to accomplish and how what you are doing is not helping at all.

[BKH70041]

261. You've Got To Pick Up Every Stitch

Must be the season of the witch.

[heaven05]

275. non consensual

non consensual sex in any form is rape. 1+1=2. Pretty simple.

[MirrorAshes]

288. As a man, I'm secure enough not to be.

I'm not a rapist. I recognize some other men are, and they don't typically advertise it if so. Common-sense caution by women should be respected and admired.

I think a lot of people seem to enjoy the "debate" a lot more than actually protecting women or defending men, though, too. Live your life, and if you're a woman, protect yourself. If you're a man, get over the fact that women need to protect themselves. These arguments are detrimental to both sides when they achieve this level of vitriol and contention. Recognize facts, avoid generalizations, and realize we're all better off if we're all on the same side here.

It's not men vs women, it's men and women vs violent criminals. Lets keep things in perspective.

[DirkGently]

300. This whole argument is a mess.

I think it's a fine point to make that victim-blaming is a huge problem, and that we need far more cultural conversation about men (in particular) understanding and talking about and fully absorbing the fact that there is no "rape rape" or "legitimate rape," but rather, "There is consensual sex between conscious, aware adults making a mutal decision, and there is the crime of sexual assault."

But are anti-rape "tips" for women really the point of the fallacious spear? The little graphic above is kind of sneaky with its "don't dress / act / go." Isn't that something assholes say and think, rather than what we actually purport to teach?

"Be self-aware and be prepared to spot, and stop, and if need be hurt someone that might target you, because rape is a crime that occurs" for example, isn't victim blaming, is it?

Shouldn't we teach that, right alongside, "Rape is rape?"

Just seems to me that this framing lures in a lot of hair splitting and knee-jerk contrarianism.

Don't we all actually agree that the problem is rape culture, but the solutions include everything we can do to stop it?

[xulamaude]

320. "Don't we all actually agree that the problem is rape culture"

No, there a number of people here who deny that there is any such thing as "rape culture" or who would have us (the rape culture 'conspiracy theorists'!!) explain over and over and over and over again what it is and demand proof of its existence from 'reputable' sources.

[xulamaude]

357. The "positive side"?

There's a positive side to any of it?

[seabeyond]

358. this is how my 78 yr old father in laws dismisses rape and womens issue. you should be thankful

you do not live in afghanistan.

[libodem]

360. I find the whole discussion a mess as well

Yet I don't know how to make this a more clear conversation. Everyone agrees rape is wrong. Do they not? I don't understand the argument?

[Rex]

302. If your intent is to rape someone, then bingo you are a rapist.

The environment and other background information are all secondary in nature. A rapist is someone that enjoys raping, a rape apologist is someone that condones rape. Everything after that is an excuse.

Black and white issue imo.

[LeftishBrit]

304. Exactly!

It is in fact exactly the same thing as that old slogan that so strongly offends men: 'All men are potential rapists'.

No, they are not; but then women should not be required to act as though they are.

[In_The_Wind]

310. It also presumes that men act by animal instinct.

I refuse to believe that all men are potential rapist.

[Uncle Joe]

317. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Triana.

[gtar100]

318. That "someone" is often religion and cultural traditions.

It's not always just some fundamentalist idiot spouting out his indoctrination.

[nomorenomore08]

332. Females (and to a lesser extent, males) of all ages, from infancy to advanced old age, are potential

rape victims. It has not one goddamn thing to do with behaving recklessly or looking sexy.

[obxhead]

334. Nope, I'm not offended.

When someone claims anything from the first paragraph I ask them to get the F away from me.

Stupid people make poor acquaintances.

Only an intentionally stupid person could make such a statement.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

359. I sometimes get offended ...

... when someone tells me I should be offended.

But not this time. My natural state is "old fart".