Do Vitamins Block Disease? Some Disappointing News

[Purveyor]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- There's more disappointing news about multivitamins: Two major studies found popping the pills didn't protect aging men's brains or help heart attack survivors.

Millions of Americans spend billions of dollars on vitamin combinations, presumably to boost their health and fill gaps in their diets. But while people who don't eat enough of certain nutrients may be urged to get them in pill form, the government doesn't recommend routine vitamin supplementation as a way to prevent chronic diseases.

The studies released Monday are the latest to test if multivitamins might go that extra step and concluded they don't.

"Evidence is sufficient to advise against routine supplementation," said a sharply worded editorial that accompanied Monday's findings in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine.

After all, most people who buy multivitamins and other supplements are generally healthy, said journal deputy editor Dr. Cynthia Mulrow. Even junk foods often are fortified with vitamins, while the main nutrition problem in the U.S. is too much fat and calories, she added.

more...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MED_HEALTHBEAT_VITAMINS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-12-16-19-44-14

[TM99]

1. There are literally now tons of research for and against vitamins and nutrients.

Some contradict others, some support others, and some simply stand on their own. Sometimes the study in question is found to have been poorly done. At other times, another study is done 'perfectly' and the results are inconclusive.

What I observe is that now that the vitamin and supplement industry is making billions just like the allopathic/pharmaceutical industry, there is a simple human fight over who will control the arena and who gets the billions. One side in particular wants to completely control the situation. They are going to 'protect' me from myself. They will decide what pills I pop. They are the high priests of science who will dispel the 'woo' and lead me into the promise land of pure rational thought as long as I am an atheist and also accept the dogma of THEIR version of the scientific method.

I want both. I have seen firsthand the effectiveness of both approaches. I needed chemo. I also needed the vitamins, herbs, & nutrients that assisted me in getting through chemo. If I want to 'waste' my money on these things, so be it. It is my money, and you know what, no one is dying from taking their multivitamins. But lots of people die from fucked up pharmaceuticals like Vioxx, Baycol, DES, Rezulin, Posicor, PPA, and the list goes on.

I am sure there will be another series of studies shortly informing me that multivitamins are 'good' again, but maybe by then, I will need a prescription from my MD to get it.

[HuckleB]

3. The consensus shows that few people need any vitamin supplements.

Ignoring that is to promote anti-consumer BS.

[TM99]

4. No the consensus is not.

I could give a rat's ass about 'anti-consumer BS'. What I care about is actual health and healing.

http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/Flawed-Research-Used-to-Attack-Multivitamin-Supplements.htm?sourcecode=INL303E&utm_source=ConsumerAlert_1217&utm_medium=email&utm_term=ConsumerAlert_1217&utm_content=text_link&utm_campaign=INL303E

When you actually look at the flaws within these studies, you truly see who is promoting the BS.

[HuckleB]

5. You just attempted to prove something by using a supplement selling website.

The consensus is very clear. To ignore it is to do the same thing as the climate change denialists.

Wake up.

And the fact that you don't care about consumers is interesting. I suspect DU admins might want to know about that.

[TM99]

14. LEF Foundation does not just sell supplements

and if you took the time to read about them instead of a knee-jerk response, you would have realized that. Their science is still real and valid, and their valid rebuttal stands on its own merits. In other words, there is no consensus when the three studies used to form the editorialist's opinion have serious methodological flaws.

I am quite awake and intelligent enough to draw my own conclusions from the careful reading and digestion of various opposing viewpoints in an ongoing debate, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to do the same?

Did you seriously write that sentence? DU Admins need to know that I value more the health and healing of humanity over who gets all the all-mighty dollars from the consumers? Where are we? Grade school?

Perhaps DU Admins need to be made aware of the very vocal & obnoxious group of authoritarians who have decided to attempt to control what choices we, as adults, want to make by defining for us what is and isn't the consensus (when it has not been determined), what is and isn't 'real' medicine (i.e. the fearful WOO!), and what is and isn't acceptable to spend the consumer dollars on (they'll yammer on about the billion dollar supplement industry while ignoring the trillion dollar pharmaceutical industry in bed with the FDA).

[solarhydrocan]

17. + a million

Perhaps DU Admins need to be made aware of the very vocal & obnoxious group of authoritarians who have decided to attempt to control what choices we, as adults, want to make by defining for us what is and isn't the consensus (when it has not been determined), what is and isn't 'real' medicine (i.e. the fearful WOO!), and what is and isn't acceptable to spend the consumer dollars on (they'll yammer on about the billion dollar supplement industry while ignoring the trillion dollar pharmaceutical industry in bed with the FDA).

!!!!

Anyone that wants my vitamin and mineral supplements can come and try to take them. The title of the OP is a bit misleading too, who says vitamins/minerals "block disease"? No one I know.

Not many posts on how Big Pharma bribes their way around the world either. I wonder why that is.

[HuckleB]

70. DU Admins know about LEF. You might not want to promote your scam preferences quite so vehemently.

[TM99]

71. If I get 'banned' for sharing an article

from LEF that challenges a few poorly done research studies and sensationalistic editorial, then bring it the fuck on!

This would be no site that I would want to have a damned thing to do with if this were truly the case.

[HuckleB]

76. Oh, goodness.

You're not fooling anyone.

LEF is a scam. You are pushing a scam.

If you don't care, well, we all know what the means.

[TM99]

80. So glad to know HuckleB

that you speak for the royal 'we' here as well as the Administration of DU.

I am not attempting to fool anyone. I am just not giving in to your bullshit.

[HuckleB]

18. They are all about selling supplements, and pushing BAD PROPAGANDA aimed at selling supplements.

They are as bad as any ugly corporation you can name. If you understood how the scientific process actually works, and had the guts to challenge your preconceived notions you would know that. Your other attacks on me are just as despicable as your desire to push scams upon your fellow humans.

Perhaps DU Admins need to made aware of the fact that you are promoting a money-making operation with BS attacks.

Hmm.

[TM99]

20. Bullshit!

Nope, they are not.

1) Do you support Pfizer in realizing a profit which supports employees, R&D, and bringing new products to market? Then you are a damned hypocrite if you hold a vitamin & supplement organization to a different standard, particularly when their typical revenue is in the 25 million range with 15 million in expenses with a realized profit of around 10 million annually. Do you you know what Pfizer's 3rd quarter 2013 revenue alone was? $12.6 billion. That is an example of a bad and ugly corporation.

2) I have been practicing the 'scientific method' for more than 30 years personally AND professionally. When posters like yourself throw that around, they ALWAYS mean their interpretation of the scientific method as it suits them.

3) My 'attacks' on you? My, you are full of yourself. You bring up 'informing Admins' because you disagreed with my statement which you didn't even understand. When I stand up to you, now you claim I am attacking you - typical behavior of a bully.

4) Here is what I find worthy of promoting:

http://www.lef.org/about/lef-scientific-achievements-in-health-and-longevity_01.htm

I don't expect you to read those three pages. It will definitely challenge your preconceived notions, but you are too busy projecting those on me to see what one organization, among the many I support, has done positively for human beings when it comes to health, healing, and longevity.

[HuckleB]

68. Wow!

Just wow!

You have been debunked, yet you pretend that you have not been debunked.

LEF is a scam outfit. Everyone who cares about ethics, science and decency knows that.

Why don't you?

[TM99]

72. No I have not been debunked.

LEF has not been shut down by an government authorities for perpetrated scams. There are no references to LEF being 'woo' except on this forum from a very obnoxious and vocal minority intent on 'showing us the light' and a brief mention on The Skeptics Forum.

So, yes, forgive me if I am a bit more knowledgeable and experienced to recognize that a bunch of anonymous nobodies on a few forums are not the final arbiters of what is ethical, scientific, or decent.

So please continue with bullshit if you must.

[HuckleB]

77. And your complete lack of understanding of how science works debunks you again.

Seriously, why are you pushing the worst type of scam known to mankind at a place like DU?

WOW! JUST...

WOW!

[TM99]

79. Give it a rest HuckleB.

Yeah, undergraduate degrees in psycho-biology and philosophy, an MBA with a concentration in econometrics, and a Ph.D. in clinical psychology.

You are sooooo right. I know absolutely nothing about how science works.

But hey, you don't know me and I don't know you. So I am done discussing this with you.

[Logical]

101. LOL, now you are posting your alleged degrees? Why? And it could be pure BS. That defensive? n-t

[zazen]

33. I understand how the scientific process works quite well, thank you very much

And that includes how scientific knowledge is rhetorically constructed and grounded in ideological assumptions that are more powerful because they are more tacit. There are entire fields to understand the rhetoric and sociology of medicine, you know.

The scientific "method" has for 3-4 centuries been practiced by humans who get locked into asking questions, seeking evidence, determining what is evidence, using tools, and otherwise "advancing" knowledge through powerful paradigms that help them focus but also inherently blind them to what may be right in front of them.

Frances Bacon said something to the effect of "truth is more easily arrived at through error than confusion." The precision and rigor of science forces people to believe a set of precepts, which drives them to a range of discoveries. But that belief can blind them to other potential paradigms.

I'm very open to how routine supplements may paradoxically be causing harm. But I'm healthily skeptical of all findings and lines of research, whether they're pushed by the AMA or big pharma or NIH or a vitamin company or a foundation that's promoting naturopathic medicine--or even just funded by them, since I believe rigorous, well-meaning people do not go around intentionally promoting the agendas of their funders in the face of contrary evidence.

What I think is a powerful new source of scientific advance is this emerging trend on the internet of well-informed citizen/patient groups gathering enough anecdotal data (which really meets the standards of a lot of exploratory pilot work in clinical research) to justify further inquiry. These groups are struggling with a particular condition and are desperate to heal. They haven't had an opportunity to coalesce (rarely, except say with Lyme or in fighting medical obstetric practices) until the Internet, but I think there's great power here. They don't have secondary profit or academic or professional motivations. There's research on the "wisdom" of crowds tending to make guestimates, at least of numbers of beans in a jar, that tend to form a bell curve around the accurate answer. I wonder about these crowds at least suggesting interesting directions of research.

I bring this up also because just because someone isn't an MD doesn't disqualify them from a critical reading of peer-reviewed research, whether because their PhD is in another field or because they're a well-informed patient.

[HuckleB]

69. You seem to know only how to abuse the scientific process.

Just like the supplement scammer do.

You're not fooling anybody who actually understands it.

Thus, you really need to get a clue.

[sabrina 1]

85. Excellent post, thank you. We are all sick of the authoritarians here who try to decide for us what

we should read, eat, drink, THINK, smoke, believe, talk about etc.

[SidDithers]

24. Life Extension Foundation...

Oh for fucks sake.

Sid

[TM99]

29. Typical smart ass response

from one of the anti-woo gang here to save us all from ourselves!

[Logical]

32. The word 'gullible' isn't in the dictionary, you can check! nt

[TM99]

39. Look, it is another smart ass

come to save us gullible 'children' from the big bad woo.

[Logical]

50. Take all the woo you want. It is just placebo effect so it works for you. I have no issue with that.

[SidDithers]

43. Anyone who thinks lef is credible is beyond "saving"...nt

Sid

[TM99]

46. Thanks for caring Sid.

You are all heart.

[Logical]

34. Don't ruin their fun! Fact don't matter! nt

[TM99]

38. Actually,

for someone like myself who has depended upon a variety of medical treatments in order to heal, this is decidedly not just some 'fun' debate on the internet. It is and was deadly serious for me, and it is for others.

Facts, my ass! LEF and others present lots of facts. Your little gang just doesn't want to deal with facts that contradict your chosen philosophy of science. So please stop bleating on about facts when you have no intention of dealing with them.

[MineralMan]

49. Life Extension Foundation?

And we should believe a website that is dedicated to selling supplements? Really?

That website is not a fount of scientific knowledge, to say the least.

[TM99]

74. Damn, are all of you guys

so dense that you do not actually read past the first page? Do you not read about the supplements AND the research? I already posted a link to research and advise that they have given to the American public for almost 30 years. And yes, even though you may disagree with the science or the research conclusions, it does not make it any less of a scientific knowledge base.

What is the fucking hang up about selling supplements? I am a psychologist. I sell my services. Right now I can't even afford to offer a sliding scale fee or do pro bono work. MD's sell their services, and most of them do so at quite a high price particularly without insurance. Pharmaceutical companies are not just into the business of creating medications to bring health and healing to the American public. They make a bloody damned good profit in the meantime.

But hey yeah, LEF sucks and is scam because they sell products as well. I read an article about how nettles has been shown in fucking research to aid in allergy response reduction. So I spend $25.00 or less for a bottle to try it out. If it works, terrific, if not, I only spent $25.00.

Now let's discuss Alcon. They are a large pharmaceutical corporation just bought out by Nestle with a 2011 revenue of over $10 billion. There website is all about allergies, eye conditions, etc. They provide research and tons of information just like LEF. However, why are they different? They sell products as well. In point of fact, I use one of their products. It is called Patanase. I can not use Flonase which is what my insurance will cover because of my endocrine disorder. So I require prior authorization. Sometimes it lasts 6 months and other times 1 year. This time, the weekend before Christmas, I get informed by my pharmacy that yup, my prior authorization has expired. They can sell it to me and then refund me once that is completed next week by my PCP. What is the cost for a single bottle (a one month supply)? It is over $250.00 out of pocket.

Yes, I am so grateful to have all of you 'scientific' guys to educate me on the horrors of 'woo' medicine and the 'scam' that is LEF.

[MineralMan]

89. You seem angry. Would you like to discuss that today?

[TM99]

92. Not at all. nt

[MineralMan]

96. You said, "Not at all."

Could you tell me more? In what way does "not at all" apply to our discussion?

</Eliza>

[IdaBriggs]

40. The flaws in the studies are INCREDIBLY blatant.

I already ranted about this earlier in the week. This is just a re-write of the same stuff.

Now it will be repeated endlessly until people believe it is true.

[dipsydoodle]

2. Purposeful high vitamin intake can be beneficial to some

but not necessarily in multivitamin from.

Prior to my wife's death back in 1990 , following two brain ops for a tumour , she'd gone on high vitamin intake on the basis of nothing to loose - 12 grams of vit C / day for example, sufficient A to result in a suntan etc etc. Not sure which one's contributed but her #1 haircuts grew faster than would've and her fingernails which had always been too soft to grow long became good enough to have been used in a nail varnish advert under other circumstances.

[madfloridian]

6. That is a lot of baloney. Many many are helped by supplements.

They are always coming up with stuff like this.

Maybe they should try regulating the big pharma ads that make up new diseases so they can cure them.

[MattBaggins]

9. Big Woo is as guilty as Big Pharma

[etherealtruth]

90. Often big Woo is a wholly owned subsidiary of big Pharma

It amazes me to see DU defending a 30-40 BILLIONdollar/year industry (supplement industry)

[Puglover]

100. Yeah.

The next time my Dr. tells me to take Krill Oil to help with triglycerides I am going to tell her that she needs to consult with a bunch of anonymous posters on DU. Because God knows they know best.

[madfloridian]

106. Wow

Why so upset because some of know that supplements work, and many work very well? Why in the world is that getting so many people here having temper tantrums?

My doctor does not keep up with nutritional needs. His main concern is with prescription medicine. It is all he understands.

Open minds work well here at DU.

[Puglover]

107. Wow back.

I thought I was agreeing with you. My heartburn is with posters dispensing medical advice with an agenda. Nothing more or less then that.

[madfloridian]

108. Guess I misread.

Last edited Sat Dec 21, 2013, 04:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Sorry.

I am stunned at the anger in these discussions here about supplements. I had no idea there was another attack on them in the works. There was a big push against them a few years ago, and many supplements had to be pulled from the shelves and relabeled to be sure they did not make any claims whatsoever.

I guess people don't realize that if there are no studies done, of course there are no conclusions.

[Puglover]

109. We're good.

[otohara]

7. Since I Started Magnesium Oil

and a boatload of problems no longer exist and I no longer do the vitamins.

Transdermal Magnesium Therapy is where it's at for health.
Amazing ....

[madfloridian]

10. There's very little magnesium left in food anymore.

When I started a supplement that was strong in this and other essentials, it was amazing. It can make a huge difference.

[otohara]

11. It Got Rid of My Migraines

I haven't had a throw-up hyperventilating migraine in almost 3 years, no longer have the daily threat of one hanging over my right eye.

I can't take it orally - so glad I found the Transdermal approach.
I make my own and add a little lotion to take away the sting - so cheap - so many benefits.

[madfloridian]

12. There is a coated form...

called Slow Mag that seems to have few ill effects. Don't know why.

[trumad]

25. I do magnesium every night before I go to bed.

No more cramps. Funny---I ran out a couple of weeks ago and didn't take it for a couple of days. Night cramps came back with a vengeance.

[tridim]

56. Thanks for the tip, I haven't heard about Mag Chloride for health...

Just for snow removal.

I love how the Internet is being used as a tool for informing humanity about alternative health measures. If something is bogus and doesn't work, people will always say so. Makes it easy to weed out the woo.

I would have never known about Coconut oil otherwise. Just last year I still thought it was the worst oil you could ingest.

[otohara]

65. Tip II

Some health food stores have mag oil in spray bottles.

I make my own from flakes I buy from Ancient Secrets - which comes from the pristine sea beds near the Netherlands. Whole Foods carries a already made product made in Utah where there have been reports of too much Mercury. Stick to the sea products, there are others besides Ancient Secrets. If you can't find the flakes or already made oil at a health food store, there's the net.

I make my own super concentrated with distilled water and a little unscented lotion to take away the sting. It's not as messy as the oils in the stores and you can use less. although you can't overdose on Magnesium oil transdermal. I get the 1 lb bag from Ancient Secrets - it will last a very long time.

It takes a while to get the full benefits - not that you won't notice right away, but the longer you use it the better you'll feel overall. I will use it forever.

If you have achy feet at night ..... put some on and ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I'd check before using the stuff used for snow removal for purity...ie Utah.

[tridim]

66. I ordered a big bag of Ancient Secrets over lunch.

Thanks again.

[tridim]

103. I took some Mg Oxide this morning...

While waiting for the flakes to arrive.

Two hours later and I feel like a different person. Wow! My whole body feels loose and relaxed, for the first time in what seems like forever.

Thanks again.

[tridim]

117. Update: First morning in years without any stomach pain.

Zero.

Why has no doctor ever suggested I try Magnesium? It almost seems criminal that they haven't.

[tridim]

119. Just started Mag Oil today. Does this amazing happy-tingly feeling stick around?

Because it feels really good! Even the itching feels nice.

Magnesium is the smile supplement!

[Raine]

8. I will continue to take my vitamins and supplements

someone is always coming up with this kind of BS.

[BuddhaGirl]

13. Me too

I don't pay much attention to the hit pieces that pop up now and again.

[reformist2]

23. Me three - If one's diet isn't perfect, then vitamin and mineral supplements make total sense.

[Logical]

36. Only if they know the amount and types needed to stay healthy....

Do you understand no one knows that?

[reformist2]

37. Do you understand that even the vitamin-bashing doctors admit vitamins are good for people with

poor diets?

[HappyMe]

42. Yup, I'm going to keep taking

my vitamin/mineral pill every other day.

You're right about somebody coming out with new crap all the time.

[cleanhippie]

75. Yeah! Science is such BS!

[truth2power]

98. I agree with Raine. I'll continue taking vitamins...

And for people who say it's all excreted in your urine, my response is, "It's my urine and it's nobody's business what's in it." Geez!

[RebelOne]

15. From my experience, I have faith in Vitamin E.

I was plagued with leg cramps at night. I read somewhere on the Net that Vitamin E was the answer. I take Vitamin E at night before going to bed and have not had any leg cramps. That is a miracle vitamin supplement.

[reformist2]

16. I'm not buying any of this latest barrage of attacks against taking vitamins.

"After all, most people who buy multivitamins and other supplements are generally healthy..."

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[HuckleB]

19. Translation: "I don't understand how science works, so I'll continue to waste my money."

Come on, when will DUers truly stand up for themselves as consumers?

The consensus against almost all supplements is astoundingly clear.

Don't waste your money, and PLEASE DON'T ask others to waste their money.

Thank you.

[reformist2]

22. Translation of your msg: I just go along with whatever the latest "expert" says...

Never mind that the experts are all over the map, and most of them being paid by some big corporation
to come up with their "expert" research.

[HuckleB]

61. The scientific consensus on supplements is astoundingly clear.

You can push all the fictions you want to push, but that doesn't change reality.

[trumad]

26. I take a magnesium supplement..

One tablet every night. No more night cramps.

So I guess you're telling me not to take it?

[earthside]

31. I'll stick with Dr. Pauling

Two time Nobel Prize winner, Dr. Linus Pauling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling

Linus Pauling Institute
Micronutrient Research for Optimum Health

Vitamin C
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/

Multivitamin/mineral Supplements
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/multivitamin-mineral.html

The 'final' conclusions on the efficacy of vitamins and supplements is far from determined.

'HuckleB' is not the omnipotent authority as to what an understanding of science is; nor is 'HuckleB' the 'pope' of what constitutes the final 'consensus' on the results of all studies on vitamins and nutrition.

Trying to use science as a bludgeon is, well, not very scientific.

[HuckleB]

60. So, you haven't looked at the decades of research that followed.

Thus, you ignore the vast majority of what we know about vitamin supplementation.

That's just not wise.

[IdaBriggs]

44. Would you mind sharing some personal information?

If not, I will totally understand.

a) In what age range do you, personally, fall decade wise?

Me: I am in my 40s.

b) Sex, race, marital status and general income class.

Me: I am female, white, married, and middle class.

c) How many prescription medications do you currently take / how much do you spend on them?

Me: Zero. Same for my (middle aged white) husband and two (born premature) children. ZERO.

We are very lucky people. We also see a gentleman with a PhD in CLINICAL NUTRITION who has provided appropriate guidance when it comes to making decisions about our nutritional needs.

And we eat like crap, so I'm going to keep listening to him.

I am, however, curious about your experiences - do they differ from mine? Or are you also in the "yep, we have also been blessed with ZERO need for pharmaceutical intervention" camp?

[HuckleB]

58. Why?

[IdaBriggs]

64. I thought I explained, but if I wasn't clear --

"I am, however, curious about your experiences - do they differ from mine? Or are you also in the "yep, we have also been blessed with ZERO need for pharmaceutical intervention" camp?"

Our experiences help us interpret our reality. I want to understand yours a little better.

[HuckleB]

67. Well, that might be true.

Still, it has almost nothing to do with the topic, and I have no idea whether you understand the topic or not. Thus, you are asking me to invest a great deal of time, with little reason to do so.

Cheers!

[Vashta Nerada]

55. Isn't it amazing at how many Democrats on a Democratic message board ignore science?

[HuckleB]

59. It's crazy.

[etherealtruth]

91. Antiscience beliefs jeopardize US democracy

The entire article is well worth the read

"Today's denial of inconvenient science comes from partisans on both ends of the political spectrum. Science denialism among Democrats tends to be motivated by unsupported suspicions of hidden dangers to health and the environment. Common examples include the belief that cell phones cause brain cancer (high school physics shows why this is impossible) or that vaccines cause autism (science has shown no link whatsoever). Republican science denialism tends to be motivated by antiregulatory fervor and fundamentalist concerns over control of the reproductive cycle. Examples are the conviction that global warming is a hoax (billions of measurements show it is a fact) or that we should “teach the controversy” to schoolchildren over whether life on the planet was shaped by evolution over millions of years or an intelligent designer over thousands of years (scientists agree evolution is real). Of these two forms of science denialism, the Republican version is more dangerous because the party has taken to attacking the validity of science itself as a basis for public policy when science disagrees with its ideology."


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=antiscience-beliefs-jeopardize-us-democracy

[politichew]

21. Snake oil and fools.

They both come in many forms.

[seabeyond]

27. i read forever ago, the synthetic and a certain extenet natural which are high $, you pee it out.

eat the foods and let it absorb. works for me. not into peeing money. just sayin

[IdaBriggs]

45. In a perfect world that is the best answer.

We go through phases at my house where we eat well / I do good meal planning / cooking, and then phases where it all falls to pieces and we visit the fast food establishments with embarrassing regularity. We do supplementation based on the advice of a guy with a PhD in clinical nutrition. He has lectured rather extensively on the different types of processing / synthetic issues / absorption / blah, blah, blah.

Want to hear a total weird one - *very* anecdotal? When I take the liquid trace minerals (that I originally started taking as part of my pre-natal routine), my gray hair goes away. When I don't take them (because sometimes not as diligent about the habit), it comes back. It is *SO* weird. Forget the health issues - we're talking LESS GRAY HAIR!

<== As I said, totally anecdotal.

[seabeyond]

47. ha haha. that is interesting. as i get older, i might do a little more research. have to create

the lifestyle i want for the last stage... lol. interesting on the gray. i do not get a lot of that yet. one of my few, i was making a comment and hubby asks if i want him to pull it out. pfff... no. i like that gray. kinda curly and fun. lol

[IdaBriggs]

48. It is one of those things it is almost too embarrassing to tell about --

plus, if it was working for everyone, wouldn't everyone be doing it?

But (and this was also interesting) when my mother was going through some cancer treatments a few years back (total remission - yeah!), we took her to the clinical nutrition guy for supplements to support her health while she was doing the cancer stuff (especially because of the lack of appetite that was such a common side effect, which meant she didn't want to eat the good stuff that her body needed to repair / fight - deficiencies can *really* spiral quickly!). Anyway, she was doing the trace minerals (and other stuff), and her pure white (she has *gorgeous* WHITE hair) started doing this "reverse skunk thing" up the back of her neck where it was going back to its original black! I took a picture - she looked PUNK-ISH!

Once I pointed it out (since it was "back of her head" she really didn't notice a lot), she promptly went and became a blonde!

[seabeyond]

51. ah ha, good story. and yea for you mom. i will remember. and do some research. thanks. nt

[idwiyo]

28. K&R

[Epiphany4z]

30. ehhh I don't take vitamins

to live longer, I take them to feel better. I recall how tired and run down I felt whenever I was pregnant. I recall getting my prenatal vitamins and it was like night and day. I know taking vitamins seems to contribute to quality of life. That is good enough for me.

[Logical]

35. I love the logic here on the DU.....

Because big pharma does some things wrong means WOO is real! Great analysis!

Here is my suggestions for all DU members who hate big pharma, STOP using all drugs, vaccines, etc from all pharma companies now. Instead, go to GNC and cure your issues!

Until you do this, people will still think big pharm companies have legit products!

[TM99]

41. Way to go with the straw men.

I can be critical of both industries when it is warranted. Your childish invective to stop using all drugs, vaccines, etc. is ludicrous. I have used both pharma products and naturopathic ones including herbs, vitamins, micronutrients, etc. Both had and have their place in the healing and management of the disease process I have experienced.

But hey what to all of those MD's, DO's, NMD's, and other trained healing professionals know, right? You guys here will inform us of what's right and what's wrong to take or use with regards to our bodies and our health. How fucking progressive and enlightened of you.

[Logical]

52. I can find you a geologist who thinks the world is 3000 years old. So big fucking deal with your....

MDs who believe in pseudo-science.

[TM99]

73. And I can find a few

anonymous nobodies like yourself talking out of their asses about subjects and experiences they likely know very little about.

[Logical]

81. LOL, like you are an expert. Your anger says it all! You got nothing! Nt

[TM99]

82. That's funny!

I never claimed to be an expert. I never said I was angry.

[Logical]

83. LOL, calling people smart asses and saying 'talking out of your ass' is...

Normal behavior for you?

Nap time?

[TM99]

84. I don't tolerate fools gladly.

If a person is a smart ass, I have absolutely no problem pointing that out. If someone is talking out of their ass, again I have zero problems pointing that out.

Your continued condescension and smart ass behavior is duly noted.

[Logical]

97. How do you tolerate yourself? LOL! n-t

[TM99]

99. Again

A perfect example of your smart ass behavior with really no worthwhile communication behind it.

I am sure you will want the last word but as far as I am concerned I am finished replying to you at this point.

[Logical]

102. Well, I am not posting my degrees here . Because it really does not matter does it? I could....

be making them up. As could you.

And since you post your degrees you must think that means they mean something? Really?

I can find you 100s of GOP idiots with advanced degrees? You think they are correct because of their degrees?

You are really full of yourself.

[TM99]

104. More bullshit from you I see.

Yes, I could be, and I have zero to gain from doing so. Just sharing that I have had a bit of education and training.

I can find 100 MD's who don't know shit about half the stuff they practice just as easily.

So, you can't have it both ways. Either these degrees mean something and therefore we need to take those who promote what you believe seriously because they have degrees and have done the research; or they are all bullshit. And that means that for every supposed proof you can provide from a degreed individual, it is no more or less worthy of being an 'authority' or knowledgeable about which they speak than those offered in counter argument.

But please continue to project your arrogance and tie yourself in logical knots.

[Logical]

105. Like I said, who posts their degrees on a message board? What a load of crap. n-t

[TM99]

110. More bullshit from the bullshitter.

Plenty of people have done so - letting DU know that we have journalists, chemists, medical doctors, etc.

If one's rhetorical attack is that the other person doesn't understand 'science', it really isn't that far of a stretch to retort with an explanation of how education & experience might contradict that.

But honestly, all you have is personal attacks without any support for your supposed anti-vitamin position. If you want to continue with those, so be it.

"Logical" was a poor choice of a forum name apparently.

[Logical]

111. The proof is on your side Einstein. Also, read about the scientific method. n-t

[TM99]

112. Oh for Christ's sake!

Circular logic ad nauseam.

[Logical]

113. At this point I think your defense of this shit is just to fuck with us. Dr. TM99. LOL. n-t

[TM99]

114. Now you think I am fucking with y'all

because I do not support your conclusions on this subject?

There is enough contrary evidence to support the use of vitamins and micro-nutrients for the preservation and restoration of health that I do not agree with your opinion -- and yes, it is an opinion -- that the science is settled and the consensus is done.

I am more than familiar with the scientific method and the philosophies of science that underlie various schools of thought & approaches to the actual applications of 'pure' science and 'applied' science in the form of clinical treatments and modalities to draw my own conclusions.

I am also a different type of person than you and others in this thread who have decided that the case is closed. You are purveyors of scientism and idealistically promote an almost religious belief in the scientific method as a type of Ten Commandments. Few of you probably even realize what philosophies you were taught as you trained or simply read about various sciences to even question how they impact your worldview and your own psychology. You stand in opposition to the post-modern relativistic view of science with hardcore realism. By virtue of my training in psychology and years of Buddhist meditation, I fall somewhere in the middle. We are never going to completely agree on this topic especially given your approach to communicating.

You present yourselves as 'experts' giving absolute statements of conclusion when the reality is quite different. I don't present myself as an expert though I do have knowledge, education, and experience. I will, however, challenge those authoritarians who think they have all the answers and want to control others. When it comes to vitamins, their usage in general is without harm, provides certain proven benefits, and in other cases may do nothing.

Why is it so fucking important for you to stop other adults from doing what they think or feel is right with regards to the most personal choice of their own physical health? Are you pro-life as well? What are you thoughts on gender reassignment surgery? Do you have an internally consistent ethics or is this just the one area you have decided to save us all from ourselves on?

Your smart ass replies to me, your projections, and your arrogant belief now that I am just fucking with you simply shows me that you never had any intention of a logical or rational discussion on this topic. Y'all are just preaching to the choir and then running back to your groups patting each other on the back about how much smarter you all are than the rest of us. Perhaps if it is so bad, then you should just leave DU, after all the 'woo' has apparently taken over and scientism is not the official philosophy of the Democratic party. Or at least recognize that you should not post in a General Discussion thread on such an unresolved topic and expect to not be challenged and rebutted against.

[Logical]

115. You love hearing yourself post.......

And a quick 5 minute google search reveals why....

Profile: Psychotherapist, Inventor, & Entrepreneur

Yeah, undergraduate degrees in psycho-biology and philosophy, an MBA with a concentration in econometrics, and a Ph.D. in clinical psychology.

I am classical trained and have an undergraduate degree in Philosophy

I hold both Masters and Doctorates in clinical psychology. My post-graduate training and supervision are in psychodynamics, psychoanalysis, and somatics. I also have some training in neuropsychology, artificial intelligence, forensics, and trauma recovery.

So, no, as a graduate with a philosophy degree, I won't be accepting her pablum into the Canon of Philosophy....ever.

I have a graduate degree from an Ivy League.

And that was just a handful of separate posts. There were many more.

No one I know (who I could stand to be in the same room with for more than 5 minutes) would try to impress people so much.

Ask the "clinical psychology" part of you, what makes someone brag about themselves so much? Insecurity? Inferiority complex? You are the psychologist, not me.

[TM99]

116. I don't need to ask myself anything.

I do wonder why you continue the personal attacks instead of addressing the actual topic at hand.

Since you can't or won't, enjoy talking to yourself from here on out. That's all you have done anyway.

[Logical]

118. Bye bye! nt

[tridim]

57. I haven't taken a prescription drug in 20 years.

I don't take an excess of supplements either, just Vit C, a multi-vitamin and coconut oil.

I'm easily the most healthy person in my family, and the only one who doesn't take prescription drugs.

FWIW.

[Larkspur]

53. As long as I take my Glucosomine, my knees don't hurt

and my calcium supplements have helped too. My doctor measures my calcium count in my blood and is happy with it so far. When I wasn't taking calcium supplements, the count was low.

[Vashta Nerada]

54. Shh! Don't show this story to the woo peddlers!

[Rex]

62. Why would anyone take a vitamin to block or prevent disease?

Sounds like more FUD being pushed imo.

[ErikJ]

63. Last line especially true.

"................., while the main nutrition problem in the U.S. is too much fat and calories, she added."

But I will still take my daily fish oil supplement, calcium, Vit D and half of a multi-vitamin pill.

[longship]

78. Sodium vibraphone cured my mortapror scorchastu.

I've been suffering forever and then I googled mortapror scorchastu and I found this site that was selling sodium vibraphone which could cure it.

I have been symptom free for a month now, thanks to sodium vibraphone. Yes, it cost a lot, but the guy said he's done research on it for decades. There were many other mortapror sufferers who told their stories on the Web site. That's what convinced me to give it a try.

Now, if I could only get a cure for my Morgellons, I'd be happy. Too bad Hulda Clark died. I'm sure she could have handled the Morgellons.

I wait patiently for that cure.

[pnwmom]

86. Your title falsely implies a more general conclusion than is warranted

by the studies.

They didn't address the question of "do vitamins block disease"? They asked about specific vitamins and specific diseases: the aging of the brain and heart disease.

We already know that SOME vitamin/mineral supplements prevent and/or reduce the risk of some diseases:

Vitamin C -- scurvy

Folic acid -- spina bifida

B-12 -- pernicious anemia

iron -- iron deficiency anemia


Nothing about these two studies leads to a general conclusion about the usefulness of vitamin/mineral supplements.

Also, the jury is still out on whether multivitamins can help prevent heart disease or cancer:

http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6840

Evidence is lacking for or against multivitamins to prevent heart disease or cancer, US task force says

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/16/a-challenge-to-vitamins/

The editorial in the Annals is accompanied by two new studies reporting dismal results for multivitamins in helping preserve cognitive function and preventing heart attacks. In one study of nearly 6,000 male physicians 65 and older, participants who took a multivitamin for over a decade were no more likely to retain cognitive function as they aged than similar doctors who took a dummy pill.

But Dr. Francine Grodstein, one of the lead authors of that study, said that since physicians tend to have healthy diets and be well-nourished, the added nutrients may not have made a difference in their cases. “I do think there’s room for more research,” said Dr. Grodstein, who did not write or sign the editorial.

Demonstrating the prevention of chronic diseases can take decades and conducting long-term, randomized, controlled trials is both tricky and very costly. “We don’t and probably never will have randomized trial data over decades,” she said.

The results of another clinical trial published in the journal found that high-dose vitamins and minerals did not protect heart attack patients 50 and older from experiencing additional cardiovascular events, though the research was marred by a high dropout rate.

There have been few randomized clinical studies of the effects of multivitamins and minerals on heart disease, cancer and risk of death, said Dr. Stephen P. Fortmann, of the Kaiser Center of Health Research, who led the task force review. A draft of new task force recommendations, based on the updated review, said there was insufficient evidence to recommend taking or not taking vitamins.

[TM99]

88. Wonderful response and rebuttal.

One last piece that is crucial is that the multivitamin supplements used in these studies were of very low quality with low quantities of the various vitamins and minerals. How do we know if additional B complex vitamins would protect against memory loss if only a multivitamin with a super low potency was used?

[pnwmom]

94. Another good point.

I wonder why some people here are so anxious to disprove the worth of vitamin supplements of any kind. Is it a coincidence that so many of them are great supporters of Big Pharma?

[TM99]

95. I honestly don't think it is because

they are only just great supporters of Big Pharma though that certainly may play a part.

My observation is that it is a very small but obnoxiously vocal group from the Skeptics, Science, and Pseudoscience sub-forum. They are used to their own echo chamber, their own confirmation biases, and the TOS there which they can control.

This is General Discussion. They will be questioned and argued with by myself, you, and others. But they are generally just authoritarians who will shout us down with emotionally invective words like 'woo' and blather on about consensus, scientific method, no evidence, blah blah blah, and yet when challenged with solid scientific evidence contrary to their beliefs, they deride with smart ass responses and can never really produce the facts to back up their positions. They will discount anything and everything that contradicts their root position on the subject. In this regards, they are no different than several sub-groups here on DU and in the body politic at large including fundamentalist authoritarians of all stripes supporting everything from NSA blanket spying to Christian Dominionism to bigotry against various minority groups.

I have been informed that LEF is a scam, and that this is a known fact. Yet, there is nothing about that in reality. There are no government investigations. There are no arrests. There are no websites denouncing them for scamming people. I may not agree with all positions that LEF takes on various topics but in the 25 years I have utilized their research, recommendations and products, I have never once been scammed or bullshitted. But LEF is supposedly bad because it is part of the billion dollar supplement industry. But shish, don't remind them that Big Pharma is also a billion dollar industry which has a far greater track record of bad studies, greased palms, and deadly product recalls.

I rarely back down and always call these types on their bullshit and games. They don't like that. They think I am angry. They can only reply with bullying statements, smart ass statements, and derisive humor. Whatever.

What I truly believe is that I am no authority on this subject. I have studied it for almost 25 years and continue to study the science for and against many aspects of healing of both the mind and the body. I won't tell people what to think or believe. I may share some personal experiences and information that I have found useful and helpful, and that is all. I won't be shouted down, however, by those who do pretend to be authorities and who want to control how adults think, act, and spend their own money and resources.

[intaglio]

87. Sorry but there are too many people that think Retrophrenology would work

The "I'm healthy now it must be due to all the supplements I take," crew who ignore the fact they live in a very healthy environment.

I have never taken supplements (apart from trying Gingko Biloba which made me look like I had rampant ringworm) and don't suffer from colds, flu, IBS or "... the thousand natural shocks - That flesh is heir to ...". My last actual illness was 6 hours of diarrhea following eating a burger from a stall.

[Romulox]

93. Most of the DUers who go on about "WOO" are rightwing/authoritarian types. Why is that, I wonder?

[Barack_America]

121. Or scientists, or physicians.

This is an industry that is taking advantage of people. Very similar to televangelism.

[Vashta Nerada]

120. I'm going to spend $40 for a bottle of vitamins just so I can piss them out.

Yep. Unless told by a doctor, vitamin and mineral supplements are a huge waste of money. Like beer, multivitamins make for expensive piss.