The Advocate's Person of the Yr=Pope Francis: "If someone is gay & seeks the Lord-who am I to judge"

[kpete]

The Advocate's Person of the Year: Pope Francis
While 2013 will be remembered for the work of hundreds in advancing marriage equality, it will also be remembered for the example of one man.



MORE:
http://www.advocate.com/year-review/2013/12/16/advocates-person-year-pope-francis
http://americablog.com/2013/12/lead-gay-magazine-picks-pope-francis-person-year.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Americablog+%28AMERICAblog+News%29

[eqfan592]

1. Most of the comments reflect my feelings on the selection.

I especially liked this one : "This is just about the most pathetic, self-hating bowing down to a bigot that I've read in my 40 years of gay activism. Francis is doing good public relations in the service of propping up the patriarchy--an infantile style of governance that sees the "leaders" as parents and the members as children. Catholics need to grow up and govern their own church if they want to avoid continued scandal. The fact that so many are in a thralll (sic) to this man--who has not changed one iota of anti-gay, anti-woman doctrine--is pathological." - Andy Humm

Time magazine was somewhat more justifiable. But this one.....smh.

[theHandpuppet]

9. +100

Pathetic is an understatement.

[Zorra]

2. If someone is str8, and does not seek anything at all, who am I to judge? nt

[Tikki]

3. What if a person is gay and doesn't seek the lord with goodwill?…

What if the person is just a nice person, non religious, and goes about their business..

IMHO That is a pretty big qualifier there that the pope put on many people.


Tikki

[el_bryanto]

7. You mean the Pope is pro-Religion? I guess that is a shocker.

I also hear that bears do something in the woods.

Bryant

[Tikki]

8. So religion trumps human...

in his World…not a shocker at all…

Tikki

[el_bryanto]

10. I believe he was asked specifically about Gay and Lesbian Catholics

Not about non-Catholics. And if you are Catholic, I believe he expects that you are seeking God.

Bryant

[Glassunion]

11. The he'd probably say that they should go with their conscience.

Last edited Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:25 PM - Edit history (1)

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, is when one goes against their conscience,”
“To listen and to obey to (one’s conscience) means to decide oneself in relation to what’s perceived as good and evil. And this decision is fundamental to determining the good or evil of our actions.”

[Tikki]

20. Bad parenting…you either love your child unconditionally or you don't...

If you say you are alright if you use your conscience and then say... if you seek the lord, then you are alright..…
That makes his statements conditional and inconsistent.



Tikki

[Glassunion]

24. If that is what he said, then you'd have a point.

"If you are gay and you seek the Lord in good faith, who am I to judge" - From the OP

"What if a person is gay and doesn't seek the lord with goodwill?" - your question

"Sin, even for those who have no faith, is when one goes against their conscience,"
"To listen and to obey to (one’s conscience) means to decide oneself in relation to what’s perceived as good and evil. And this decision is fundamental to determining the good or evil of our actions." - So, to the person who is gay and doesn't seek the lord: Follow your heart and be a good person.

He never said "if you seek the lord, then you are alright...." He said "Who am I (meaning the Pope) to judge."

He is basically taking a message from the bible, to not judge: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Tikki]

27. So he only judges something or he doesn't judge anything or something in a conscience...

I don't know religious speak….so must be my bad.



Tikki

[Glassunion]

28. No, the first comment was on the hypocrisy of his own church leaders and them denying

gay people communion. He was basically saying that they should not judge.

The second comment was for the atheist, who he will also not judge. That they should follow their heart and do what is right.

[Tikki]

29. Maybe the two statements were taken out of context..

1. This is pretty black and white as far as I see. "If someone is gay & seeks the Lord-who am I to judge?"

2. This statement is a bit more ambiguous.
“Sin, even for those who have no faith, is when one goes against their conscience,”
“To listen and to obey to (one’s conscience) means to decide oneself in relation to what’s perceived as good and evil. And this decision is fundamental to determining the good or evil of our actions.”

I don't know where the last quote came from..but consistency is fundamental in a good relationship.

Tikki…again, I am prob out of my league here because I know nothing of religion protocol or language.

[Glassunion]

30. The quotes were all from the same article that I read.

There were two different things being address.

The first was his opinion on so-called Christians, judging other Christians based on their orientation. He called bullshit, and said that we are not here to judge. That all are welcome.

The second was on his opinion of God's views of the Atheist. Here it is in more context.
"You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

To me he is basically saying that the non believer will still have their own heart and conscience. And a "sin" to the non believer would be to betray that, and go against what they know is right. I think this is about him trying to have a more meaningful dialogue with the world.

[Tikki]

31. Well, words can be the beginning of a dialog.

He prob left many gays in the dust with the first statement, though.

But then after all.. it is our fight as Americans to make sure that gay rights continue to grow and are upheld…


Tikki

[sabrina 1]

13. He is speaking about those who claim to be Christians, Santorum eg, who would deny those who are

Gay and Catholic, the right to receive communion. So he is addressing the only people he knows he has a right to address, the hypocrites in his own Church who, as he stated, 'are obsessed with Gays and Abortion' and who need to start acting like the Christians they claim to be and focus on the issues Christ focused on, poverty eg and stop judging others they have no right to judge.


His remarks were directed at those in the Republican Party right here who use these issues to win elections, but then deny the needs of the most vulnerable people they supposedly represent, using their religion, which he condemns, to do the exact opposite of what Christ taught.

It was a real blow to our Right Wing hypocrites and one that can now be used AGAINST them when they try to do what they did to Kerry, eg, a Catholic who stated that he would not impose his own views on abortion on others as an elected official. They attacked him for that, stating he should not be allowed to receive communion because he refused to condemn abortion publicly,.

Anyone who fails to see the importance of what the Pope said to those hypocrites, is either willfully blind or prefers to preserve the hypocrisy of Right Wingers claiming to be Christians, to continue to use those tactics for political purposes. Iow, he exposed them and they are furious about it.

[BarackTheVote]

17. +1! nt

[Laughing Mirror]

4. Adieu! Advocate

If you thought buying into the papal spin would increase your circulation rate, watch as your subscribers cancel one after one.

[stevenleser]

5. I'm hopefully optimistic regarding this Pope. This is a mistake

It's one thing for Time to say he is person of the year taking into account some of the things he has already said and done as Pope.

I dont think it is appropriate for either a woman's rights or LGBT rights magazine to honor him thusly yet. Even with his actions today regarding removing a virulently social conservative cardinal from one of his offices.

I think he will show that he is walking the walk on women's and LGBT issues, but he has not done so yet. I don't know why the Advocate was in a hurry to honor him as such.

[SomethingFishy]

22. Hmmm... kind of like Obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize..

A little prematurely?

[stevenleser]

25. I'll accept the comparison. I wouldn't have done that either if I was on the Nobel committee.

I think that was more of a F**K you to Bush than anything else. I can accept it on those terms I guess.

[msongs]

6. without the catholic jesus, LGBTs are going to hell. repent sinners nt

[bullwinkle428]

12. Women should probably not set their hopes too high, either:

From La Stampa, an Italian periodical:

Interviewer : May I ask you if the Church will have women cardinals in the future?

Francis : “I don’t know where this idea sprang from. Women in the Church must be valued not “clericalised”. Whoever thinks of women as cardinals suffers a bit from clericalism.”

http://www.lastampa.it/2013/12/14/esteri/vatican-insider/en/never-be-afraid-of-tenderness-5BqUfVs9r7W1CJIMuHqNeI/pagina.html

[Arugula Latte]

33. Yes, this Church sure values its second-class vessels, er, citizens.

[Vashta Nerada]

14. It seems as though The Advocate has gone downhill in quality.

A reminder for you all:

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

[Vashta Nerada]

15. I like this comment in the comments section of The Advocate:

What a bunch of wishful thinking! No, dogma hasn't changed. You're still intrinsically evil because of your nature. No matter how much polish is applied, you're still trying to polish a turd.

Sums up my feelings.

[sabrina 1]

18. As I understand your comment, you would have preferred that the Pope condone the hypocrisy

of Right Wing Catholic Elected officials in this country rather than call them on their hypocrisy?

I couldn't disagree more. He struck a blow against Republicans claiming to be Catholics who, as he stated 'are obsessed with Gays and Abortion, their two most often used political attacks on Democratic Catholics, like Kerry eg, rather than focus on what Christ, who they claim to follow, focused on, poverty eg and to stop judging people who are part of the Catholic Church themselves.

It was a wonderful blow to them and most people understood from his comments. Except those who wanted to protect the hypocrits.

[Vashta Nerada]

19. Where did you get that from?

I suggest you re-read post #14.

[Barack_America]

16. Did the Cardinals have any idea who they were voting for?

Or did Francis just keep his true values close to the vest for the ultimate "Surprise!" moment?

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Lipstick on a pig.

(No, I am not calling the Pope a "pig," nor am I making a cross-dressing 'joke.&quot

While some may take his words in a positive light, until things actually change, it is nothing but pretty words.

And seriously Advocate, there was no one else worthy of "Person of the Year" for a gay magazine? Really?!?

[JoePhilly]

23. I bet Glen Greenwald is PISSED!

[Rex]

26. If he can clean up the Church of all molestation by priests

let them marry...let women be priests...THEN I will say he is the second coming of Christ. IF he can clean up his own House, then I will really get behind this guy and I am not Catholic or very religious.

As far as gender or sexual preference is concerned...I have no idea what that has to do with 'finding' God.

[TeeYiYi]

32. Love ya kpete but I gotta' unrec this one....

Seriously, Advocate? Aaarrggghhhhh....

TYY