In 2003 DLC said "fringes" in politics hung out at Dem Underground, mentioned Skinner by name.

[madfloridian]

It's amazing what pops into my head sometimes lately. I don't believe that was ever true, and I don't think it is true now. I think there is more factual stuff here backed up by sources than you are likely to see at the so-called mainstream corporate media news outlets.

This was at a time when Howard Dean's campaign was seen as a threat to the establishment Democrats, and those of us who worked for his campaign were seen as anti-war lunatics.

The DLC might be defunct, but the Third Way carries on the warnings to "liberals" to stay out of the way or they might get run over.

I finally found the archived link to Randolph Court's article in July 2003 called "Nothing but Net". It was a slam at the Dean campaign and most everyone on what he considered "the left".

Nothing but Net

When the books closed on the Democratic presidential aspirants' second-quarter fundraising drives, it was clear that Howard Dean's anti-war, anti-Bush rhetoric, combined with his use of the Internet, had successfully whipped up a sizable bloc of liberal, protest-oriented supporters in the early stages of the campaign. He had raised more than $10 million since the start of the year, much of it in small donations through the Web; well over 50,000 supporters were gathering to support him through Meetup.com; and he had won a 44-percent plurality in the straw poll staged by the online liberal activist group MoveOn.org. There was a fevered buzz: Dean, everyone surmised, had ascended into the "first tier" of presidential candidates.

But the buzz largely missed what should be an alarming revelation for Democrats: The Internet may be giving angry, protest-oriented activists the rope they need to hang the party. The vaunted new medium for grassroots political organizing may in fact be contributing to the Iowafication of the nominating process, disproportionately magnifying the voices of the activist groups with the loudest, most combative, and populist voices.

Actually the internet did give voice to the liberals of the party. But our purpose was not "to hang the party". Our purpose is and was to strengthen the party by making it stand for things Democrats have traditionally supported.

More...about that site where the fringe hangs out:

Certainly, the fringes of the political spectrum are active online on heavily trafficked discussion boards such as the left-wing democraticunderground.com and the right-wing freerepublic.com. Dean's fiery message resonates in the left-wing haunts. He is the favorite son on democraticunderground.com, according to the site's proprietor, David Allen, and the people posting on that site are an animated bunch. Much of what they post -- about Bush, and about moderate Democrats -- would not be appropriate to repeat here.

They really felt that way about us, that we were fringe. That's a shame because we were not fringe at all, in fact many of us started out as moderates. Many of our group were Republicans hungry for the truth at that time.

AND in my mind it is vital to remember other things said in 2004...why? Because the same thing is going on today. The targets of the wrath of the far right Democrats may be different...can you say Elizabeth Warren? However the message is the same...liberals will harm the party.

From USA Today in 2004...what the young New Democrats had to say about all us fringe leftists.

It's time to pass torch, younger Dems say

Only they did not mean to pass the torch to liberals. Far from it.

(Jamal)Simmons and his fellow "Young Turks" worry about the Democratic Party's dependence on interest groups, their relations with minority groups, the stereotypes that they are weak on defense and values, the Republican appropriation of the "reformer" label and the swaths of America that Democrats seem to have written off."

.."We respect the struggles of the feminist movement, the civil rights movement and Vietnam, but (we) are not defined by those struggles," says Kirsten Powers, 37, a New York-based strategist and commentator for Fox News. "We want to take what is good in liberalism and make it better, and get rid of what is not working."

..."Simmons, Powers and New York City-based consultant Dan Gerstein have been three of the bluntest commentators. "The party in certain respects is fossilized," says Gerstein, 37. "It's trapped in the last vestiges of the New Deal coalition. That coalition is no longer an electoral majority or even close to it."

A former aide to Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., Gerstein wrote in The Wall Street Journal that Democrats have "fallen right back into the elitist, weak-kneed, brain-dead trap" they thought they'd escaped with Bill Clinton."

That's harsh stuff.."elitist, weak-kneed, brain-dead".

Unfortunately for them there are more of us now than there were then.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Thank you for this fascinating look back!

And I must say, your sentence "Unfortunately for them there are more of us now than there were then." really resonates with me.

These Democrats who despise us are responsible for the increase in our numbers. We see what they are up to, and what they want, and it pisses us off. Thus do our numbers grow.

[madfloridian]

2. "These Democrats who despise us are responsible for the increase in our numbers"

Amen to that.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Thanks!

[Lifelong Protester]

202. Or, to quote a great sign at the Madison protests....

"Screw us and we multiply". If Madison showed me anything, it is that there are a LOT of 'us'-and they are all ages, ethnicities, backgrounds of employment, you name it, D-I-V-E-R-S-E.

[Egnever]

4. At the time we were the fringe.

Let's not forget the madness that was the bush years.

[winter is coming]

42. We were the fringe to Bushco, yes. That we were dismissed as "fringe" by our own party

wasn't and isn't acceptable. Dumping on the people you expect to vote, donate, and volunteer for you is arrogant and stupid.

[madfloridian]

65. Well said.

Being dismissed by our party as fringe was insulting.

[Enthusiast]

80. And it was a false meme created by rightie Third Way.

It was an act of subterfuge.

[Egalitarian Thug]

73. +1.

[cinnabonbon]

84. Well said. n/t

[sabrina 1]

129. We were the voices of reason, ALWAYS and we were RIGHT, weren't we? While the liars were spreading

their disastrous lies, there WERE voices of reason. The DLC are RIGHT WINGERS and it is clear in those excerpts that they USED Women and Minorities with a gratuitous reference to Vietnam to FOOL Democrats into thinking they were Democrats.

The Third Way/DLC are the fringes of society around the world. They support brutal wars, torture, predatory capitalism and they don't belong in this party.

[bvar22]

159. My sig line from early days at DU:

[font color=firebrick size=3][center]The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR. [/font][/center]

[NRaleighLiberal]

5. "the people posting on that site are an animated bunch" - wrong! We are real!

no cartoon characters here!



fascinating read...thanks for posting.

[madfloridian]

7. I just found you on twitter...

I ran across the thread Skinner posted when DU went on twitter and saw your post there. So I followed...keeping up with those tomatoes!

[NRaleighLiberal]

45. howdy! Well, I used to be much more out there political in my tweets...

but with the book coming out a year from now, my editor (and daughter) told me to tone down the politics and focus on the tomatoes! (hence my two different user names)....

[mimi85]

164. Congrats on the book!

Who knew we had a gardening expert here? Can't wait to hear all about your book. Maybe give us DUers a chance at an autographed copy?

Well, that was OT, but as a person with a totally brown thumb, I respect successful gardeners (or maybe just envy them)!

And to the OP, thanks for the look back in time. We've got to GOTV big time next year and get rid of these RW fringe characters! I'm really going to try and be in the trenches. There was an article in the LA Times this morning about how this is definitely the worst session of congress ever! No surprise there. Put an educated black man in office and the ugliest of the ugly came out.

Hey, Happy Holidays to all you DUers!

[woo me with science]

33. LOL. Well, the traditional Democrats are real, anyway.

There is most certainly a very active paid corporate presence here...as there is now at discussion places across the internet.

States that build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines...

[klook]

108. Speak for yourself!

[Phlem]

6. Excellent post.

Seems were being given 1 of 3 choices.

Democrats, the Third Way, or Republicans.

Which one of these things is not like the other?



-p

[RC]

12. That is more like an Either/Or choice.

[Phlem]

20. yes but it's lost on others.

-p

[DonCoquixote]

8. and here is the gem

"The Internet may be giving angry, protest-oriented activists the rope they need to hang the party. The vaunted new medium for grassroots political organizing may in fact be contributing to the Iowafication of the nominating process, disproportionately magnifying the voices of the activist groups with the loudest, most combative, and populist voices."

In other words, this is why the Third way types are here cracking the whip!

This is why the "Hillary is inevitable!" campaign is already under way.

The Centrists know we are here, and they want us either gone or helpless.

[madfloridian]

9. Agreed.

[Phlem]

24. I forget.

Who coined the term "the Professional Left" ?

Seriously was it Rahm or Potus?

-p

[madfloridian]

28. It was WH spokesperson Robert Gibbs....

A pretty high-up source.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-house-on-defense-after-gibbs-lashes-out-at-professional-left/

/
AP

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs delivered harsh remarks about his party's liberal base in an interview to the Hill newspaper recently, dismissing the "professional left" as unrepresentative of liberals "in America." Gibbs and the White House, however, have sought to downplay his remarks while at the same time maintaining that liberal dissatisfaction with President Obama is misguided.


Gibbs told the Hill that the "professional left" will only be satisfied "when we have Canadian healthcare and we've eliminated the Pentagon. That's not reality."


A number of liberal commentators have criticized the Obama administration on a range of issues -- such as giving up on the health care public option, a lack of action on repealing the military's "don't ask, don't tell policy," the continuing war in Afghanistan, and for taking an expansive view of executive powers some have compared to former President Bush's.

[Phlem]

32. Nice find! Totally book marking it.

-p

[madfloridian]

40. He really made a mistake saying that.

He was in a powerful position, and it was interpreted he spoke for those above him. Not a good idea.

[Phlem]

46. Well yes and compound that with,

at face value seems like a derogatory term.



Yep they're all a bunch geniuses.

Go 3rd way!

-p

[PassingFair]

39. No, as I remember it, we were wild-eyed latte-drinking Volvo-driving, birkenstock wearing liberals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2243738

[madfloridian]

43. lol I remember that ad Here's the video from 2003...lol

[YOHABLO]

48. "...latte-drinking Volvo-driving, birkenstock wearing liberals.''

I hate lattes .. drink strong coffee only, can't afford a Volvo, and birkenstocks .. I mean really? those have to be some of the ugliest shoes .. ever. I will say this to who ever the Dem candidate turns out to be (yeah, probably Hilary) .. they can't win without us. Because we will damn sure go somewhere else with our votes.

[winter is coming]

204. I always gave my lattes to the Volvo.

Maybe that's why I drive a Honda now.

[El_Johns]

41. That's the party leadership's view? Depressing.

[Bluenorthwest]

114. Gibbs who has never earned a dime outside the world of 'professional politics'....

Clearly Gibbs defines himself as a part of the professional right, because lord knows he's a professional, cashing checks for adivsing candidates, for punditry, for all manner of political blather but never, ever an ouce of worthwhile activity. Gibbs has never been a Democrat without being paid to be one.

[Number23]

51. How in the world did you read that phrase

and come away with "In other words, this is why the Third way types are here cracking the whip!"

The author SPECIFICALLY says that the Internet is galvanizing angry, combative fringe types and you have somehow twisted that to be some criticism of CENTRISTS. That is absolutely astonishing.

[DonCoquixote]

61. Because

the centrists were quoted as beign concerned about that, because they know that we are getting tired of them leanign so far right that we might as well bring reagan back from the dead, since he is left of many democrats...

And thanks for illustrating my point well.

[Number23]

69. I have absolutely no idea what you are even trying to say

But I get the feeling that is a trait that we both share at the moment.

[1StrongBlackMan]

91. Mention ...

racism on the Left or males and rape, you get the same kind of response ...

[winter is coming]

156. That phrase is a false characterization, propagated as fact by those who benefit from the lie.

"Angry, combative fringe types" is meant to give the impression that those who don't meekly submit to party leadership are scary people you wouldn't want to encounter on the street. The intent is to paint the leadership as serious, practical, responsible people and those who reject it as abnormal, dangerous, and other. And that's self-serving bullshit directed at those who refuse to uncritically support the status quo.

[annabanana]

185. TA DAH!!

You nailed it m'dear.

[Number23]

186. That's all well and good but has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted

Last edited Mon Dec 23, 2013, 05:59 PM - Edit history (1)

The sentence that the poster highlighted was pretty specific in who it was criticizing. That posters' efforts to take very clear criticism of the "left" and make it about the Third Way/centrists was a sleight of hand so clumsily delivered and obvious in its bias that I had to ask how in the world he got there.

And if it gives you comfort to believe that it's the "angry fringe" that are the revolutionaries "critically" questioning the status quo, then who am I to stop you?

[winter is coming]

203. It's very much about what you were posting.

You'd like to make it appear that the criticism of Third Way was simply pulled out of the air, but that bullshit statement was a tactic being employed by the Third Way crowd to minimize the left. That you can't or don't see that is intriguing.

[Number23]

214. What's really intriguing is how some folks will see whatever they want

wherever they want to see it, no matter how unhinged it makes them look.

[madfloridian]

223. "unhinged"? Wow, let it all hang out. Let us know how you really feel about liberals.

That is what the OP was all about, so you are getting into the spirit.

[Number23]

225. Point SPECTACULARLY made. And with a dose of martyrdom tossed in for taste. Thanks for that.

[noiretextatique]

207. Gibbs is completely full of shit

his "criticism" of the left is completely ridiculous. that's why his opinions reflect badly on so-called centrists.

[Number23]

215. I'm not saying that I agree with the quote. But it's clear what the quote was saying

and who it was criticizing which was the "left" as you said precisely.

That there are some in this thread that see that quote and think that they can twist it to being a criticism of the Third Way is the gist of my initial comment.

[noiretextatique]

238. really?!?

his comment certainly speaks for itself. i detest the Third Way and hope they join the GOP in the toilet.

[Number23]

239. That still has nothing to do with the quote or the way that poster twisted it

The quoted comment was a criticism of the left, openly. Squarely and clearly. Twisting it to pretend that it was about someone or something else is just stupid.

[noiretextatique]

240. i didn't see that...and the comment was really stupid

and absolutely ridiculous. squarely and clearly absurd.

[Number23]

241. Regardless, I don't think it's important or interesting enough to drag up a 2 week old thread about

You dislike the Third Way. Fine.

I don't know much about them but judging by how so many on the "left" around here act, I don't see how in the hell the Third Way could be any worse than some of these people.

[MannyGoldstein]

103. Elizabeth Warren is NOT RUNNING!!!

And I really, really, really need you to believe that and give up hope.

'kay?

[L0oniX]

124. Silly ...Hillary will fight for us against the 1%, banksters, insurance corporations and the MIC.

rah rah rah It's also inevitable that I will shit today.

[joshcryer]

227. You'll be surprised.

If she runs, which is likely, she will be the first non-incumbent candidate to be for, say, gay marriage.

[DonCoquixote]

10. more gems

"..."Simmons, Powers and New York City-based consultant Dan Gerstein have been three of the bluntest commentators. "The party in certain respects is fossilized," says Gerstein, 37. "It's trapped in the last vestiges of the New Deal coalition. That coalition is no longer an electoral majority or even close to it."

A former aide to Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., Gerstein wrote in The Wall Street Journal that Democrats have "fallen right back into the elitist, weak-kneed, brain-dead trap" they thought they'd escaped with Bill Clinton."

In other words, the New Deal is obsolete, and Clinton was an instrument in "escaping" that. Oh Joy.

[madfloridian]

13. Gerstein among the worst, as was Powers.

Remember when Powers wrote the article about the shutdown of the DLC...she said our new bosses were the Third Way. She made it clear that progressives had won nothing.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/09/dlc-shutting-down-third-way-is-the-democrats-true-centrist-powerhouse.html

Reports of the death of centrism in the Democratic Party have been greatly exaggerated.

Monday’s news that the Democratic Leadership Council is folding after three decades was greeted with glee by those on the left who see it as evidence that centrism has gasped its last breath.

....The reality is that even those on the left who deride centrism could find a lot to like in the work of Third Way if they could stop hyperventilating with the same recycled accusations from the intra-party battles of the past.

Contrary to the claims of the Daily Kos crowd, Third Way is not a shill for corporations. If they shill for anyone, it is the middle class, and that’s something every Democrat should be able to get behind.

[Blanks]

152. Everyone is so focused on presidential politics...

They don't seem to grasp the importance of congress. Representatives are supposed to represent their districts.

We're told repeatedly that the red states are the 'red states' (as far as their contribution to the federal 'income'), so it makes sense that representatives of blue states that want to be fiscally responsible should support the industries in their home state (which might not necessarily be extremely liberal).

Since all spending originates in congress, we need to focus on turning some of these red states blue. When it comes to fixing the disparity in our society - if the only thing that congress is 'working on' is voting to repeal obamacare there isn't much the president can do.

Until we send a message to congress that we are done with the conservative philosophy by filling the house with democrats - we will have third way and centrist representatives. They represent their constituents because that's the word they're getting from the voters.

It's not much different than the tea partiers who aren't getting their way. We have to take everyone else into account. My own personal level of unhappiness still only counts for one vote - despite the intensity of my unhappiness.

[Doctor_J]

11. But 2010 was all our fault!

There you have it, folks. The DLC is why the party is almost dead.

[rhett o rick]

54. Great point. They also tried to blame 2000 on the left. I say if you want Christie for president,

nominate Clinton. The Democratic Party has control. If the choose Clinton, and lose, it's their own f'in fault. Dont try to blame Nader.

Clinton vs. Christie is a win-win for the corporatists.

[malokvale77]

14. That was when I discovered DU

Living in Texas, I was desperate to find liberal thinkers. It's sad that so many of them are gone, but I still find enough here to whet the appetite.

"elitist, weak-kneed, brain-dead" -- That made me laugh. It doesn't describe any liberal I know.

Thanks for the post.

[winter is coming]

15. It doesn't describe any liberal I know, either.

Which tells you a lot about the people trying to peddle that bs. If they've lied about that, what else have they lied about?

[malokvale77]

29. I raised 2 very liberal children...

who in turn have raised 3 very liberal grand-children. I have spent a good part of this evening conversing with them on the phone. Believe me when I say, there is nothing weak-kneed or brain dead about them.

We laugh a lot about the BS being fed to the masses (they know a lie when they hear it). But at the same time they are very concerned with the ignorance they see all around them.

I love them so dearly. They are awesome.

[madfloridian]

19. I found DU in 2002...

I was pretty moderate than, fairly shocked at some of the posts here...mostly because of my Southern Baptist background. I became more and more liberal from then on.

[malokvale77]

35. Welcome to the light, LOL

[cantbeserious]

16. And Then OWS Occurred To Clearly Delineate The Enemy - The 1% Versus Everyone Else

Regardless of political stripe.

The established democratic interests, DLC - Third Way, are speed bumps setup by the 1% to impede our progress in undermining the true owners of America and their agenda. These shibboleths of thinking are straw men setup to deflect and consume our energies by design. They keep us focused on the wrong actors to disguise underlying agendas.

As things stand now, the Oligarchs, Corporations and Banks own and control the politicians that own and control us. Those are our antagonists, political parties are but distractions. Overcoming the illusions to win this battle will require more than a narrow fixation on right versus left. That old meme is used to distract us from a broader understanding of the entrenched interests arrayed against us.

Our fight is with the Oligarchs, Corporations and Banks and not those that distract us with window dressing as choice, when the choice is already preordained by the owners and their minions.

[madfloridian]

64. The clash will be between the governing class and the activists. From 2004

The clash will be between the "governing class" and the "activist class."

From November 2004, Time Magazine.

What happens to the losing team

If there's a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party, predicts Simon Rosenberg, president of the New Democrat Network, a moderate advocacy group, it won't be the usual skirmish between the liberals and moderates of the professional political class in Washington but one between the Washington insiders on one side and the rank-and-file activists spread out across the country on the other. "What's changed over the past two years is that activist Democrats believe that Republicans are venal people," says Rosenberg. These activists "are going to be very intolerant of Democrats in Washington who cooperate with the Republicans. There's going to be tremendous pressure to stand up and fight and not roll over and play dead."

That appears to still be true.

[bvar22]

162. We had one of these "clashes" in the Arkansas Democratic Primary, 2010.

The Arkansas Democratic Primary was a heart breaking eye opener for the Grass Roots and Organized LABOR.
We were given a Look Behind the Curtain, and it wasn't very pretty.

[font size=3]We did EVERYTHING right in Arkansas in 2010.
We did EXACTLY what the White House asked us to do to "give the President Progressives in Congress that would work with him."[/font]

We organized and supported Lt Governor Bill Halter, the Pro-LABOR/ Pro-Health Care challenger to DINO Obstructionist Blanche Lincoln.
Halter was:

* Polling BETTER against the Republicans in the General,

*was popular in Arkansas in his OWN right,

*had an Up & Running Political machine,

* had a track record of winning elections (Lt. Governor)

*Had the full backing of Organized LABOR and The Grass Roots activists

*was handing Blanche her Anti-LABOR ass in The Primary until the White House stepped in

*Blanche had NO chance of winning the General in Arkansas

Guess what happened.
Our BIGGEST enemy to bringing "change" to The Senate was NOT The "Obstructionist" Republicans.
NO!
Our BIGGEST obstruction to bringing "change" to The Senate turned out to be The Obama White House!

The White House stepped in at the last minute to save Blanche's failing primary campaign with an Oval Office Endorsement of The Witch that Wrecked the Obama Agenda,
and Bill Clinton was dispatched on a Campaign Tour for Blanche around the state bashing Organized LABOR and "Liberals" at every opportunity.

White House steps in to rescue Lincoln’s Primary Campaign in Arkansas

"So what did the Democratic Party establishment do when a Senator who allegedly impedes their agenda faced a primary challenger who would be more supportive of that agenda? They engaged in full-scale efforts to support Blanche Lincoln.

* Bill Clinton traveled to Arkansas to urge loyal Democrats to vote for her, bashing liberal groups for good measure.

*Obama recorded an ad for Lincoln which, among other things, were used to tell African-American primary voters that they should vote for her because she works for their interests.

*The entire Party infrastructure lent its support and resources to Lincoln — a Senator who supposedly prevents Democrats from doing all sorts of Wonderful, Progressive Things which they so wish they could do but just don’t have the votes for.

<snip>

What happened in this race also gives the lie to the insufferable excuse we’ve been hearing for the last 18 months from countless Obama defenders: namely, if the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes to pass good legislation, it’s not Obama’s fault because he has no leverage over these conservative Senators. It was always obvious what an absurd joke that claim was; the very idea of The Impotent, Helpless President, presiding over a vast government and party apparatus, was laughable. But now, in light of Arkansas, nobody should ever be willing to utter that again with a straight face.

Back when Lincoln was threatening to filibuster health care if it included a public option, the White House could obviously have said to her: if you don’t support a public option, not only will we not support your re-election bid, but we’ll support a primary challenger against you. Obama’s support for Lincoln did not merely help; it was arguably decisive, as The Washington Post documented today:"

<much more>

http://www.salon.com/2010/06/10/lincoln_6/

When the supporters of Pro-LABOR Lt Gov Bill Halter asked the White House WHY they threw their support behind Lincoln at the last minute, rescuing her failing campaign, the answer was ridicule and insults to Organized LABOR and the Grass Roots.

Ed Schultz sums up my feeling perfectly in the following clip.
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/ed-schultz-if-it-wasnt-labor-barack-obama-

After the Arkansas Democratic Primary, many Grass Roots Activists working for a better government concluded that the current Democratic Party Leadership preferred to give this Senate Seat to a Big Business Republican
than to let an actual Pro-LABOR Democrat have a chance to win it.
This was greatly reinforced by the Insults & Ridicule to LABOR from the White House after the Primary "victory" over Organized LABOR & the Grass Roots in the Arkansas Democratic Primary.

Of course, as predicted by EVERYBODY, Lincoln lost badly in the General Election, giving that Senate Seat to The Republicans.
So what did the White House gain by Stomping Down Labor and the Grass Roots?
We don't know.
The White House has never responded to our questions with an explanation, only insults and ridicule.



You will know them by their WORKS.

[truebrit71]

165. ^^^^This^^^^

I recall being very upset about this betrayal...I think that was when it really sank in that Obama really wasn't who he said he was..

[winter is coming]

205. True. There's no way to give that pig a makeover. n/t

[Phlem]

212. the Truth.

Excellent!



-p

[The Wizard]

17. DLC

is dead. DU is still alive.

[madfloridian]

34. Good and valid point.

Bet that really irritates them to know that.

[1000words]

62. Funny how "Turd Way" has the same stink, though.

[JHB]

96. Change of letterhead does not equal death

The same people are still around, pushing the same policies and backed by the same money.

[winter is coming]

160. When people become aware of a scam, do con artists turn honest?

Or do they change their name and set up a different scam?

[socialist_n_TN]

210. The capitalists call this "rebranding"...........

Sell the same old shit in a new package under a new name. That's capitalism.

[bvar22]

192. The DLC is not "dead".

Like all cold blooded Reptiles,
it merely shed its old skin,
and emerged stronger than ever.

The people behind the DLC are STILL very much with us,
and carrying out their DLC agenda.
[font size=5]
The DLC New Team
Progressives Need NOT Apply
[/font]
(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)

[joshcryer]

18. Deaniacs were labled confederate flag loving gun nuts...

...I don't remember this "Dean is anti-establishment" crap. He was literally the moderate in that campaign, a moderate with good ideas.

[madfloridian]

22. True, he really was the moderate.

And we were called much worse than that.

[joshcryer]

66. The one thing Dean did amazing was leverage social media.

In that time, when Live Journal and Friendster were king (as well as AIM), that was certainly an anti-establishment approach. Probably can't say that now since social media is so entrenched.

[Eleanors38]

118. Most progressives I knew were relieved that Dean was pro-2A...

That way the gun-control issue couldn't be used against him AND the party.

[joshcryer]

226. Most progressives are pragmatic.

They know they can't win them all. It's the hardliners that play purity games. Tug at some heart strings, throw around some platitudes and talking points, completely dismiss the political junkies who know what stuff is electable and what stuff isn't at a given point in history.

Dean was no liberal and still isn't really that liberal. For instance, Deaniacs got a ton of crap that Dean was iffy on gay marriage (he didn't become a supporter until May of 2009).

It's going to be strange in 2016 when Hillary runs and is for gay marriage (she already announced that), for marijuana legalization (she channeled a known smoker in a policy speech, and it is probably going to be a wedge issue), against cuts to Social Security and Medicare.

She'll be more liberal than Obama because she has to be, just like Dean had to be a gun friendly moderate who supported Blue Dogs (called DINOs here though they vote with Dems 85% of the time), during a time of war after an historical terrorist attack.

[Eleanors38]

228. I agree that Hillary will have to run more "liberal"...

Strange and very ironic, she will have to prove her bonafides with so-called hot button issues like pot legalization & gay marriage (they used to be land mines for Democrats!). I'm still pessimistic that she will go with the fundamental banking, labor, trade and environmental reforms this country is beyond needing. As far as gun controls go, unfortunately both she and Warren will drag that issue around like a dead cat.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

21. You apparently miss that he was right...

This is what he actually wrote:

Certainly, the fringes of the political spectrum are active online on heavily trafficked discussion boards such as the left-wing democraticunderground.com and the right-wing freerepublic.com. Dean's fiery message resonates in the left-wing haunts. He is the favorite son on democraticunderground.com, according to the site's proprietor, David Allen, and the people posting on that site are an animated bunch. Much of what they post -- about Bush, and about moderate Democrats -- would not be appropriate to repeat here.

But the question remains: It's easy to activate the activists, but what about everyone else?

That will be the real test. Recent political history strongly suggests a liberal protest coalition simply doesn't add up to enough votes for a Democrat to win a national election.

And it did indeed "remain to be seen". Not only did Bush win reelection, Dean didn't even win the nomination.

And I say that, being someone who was for Dean then. Not because he was an angry counterproductive fringe candidate as many DUers hoped, but because if you looked at his actual policy positions it was clear that he was not. And I continue to believe that Howard Dean was very much Presidential material.

But the very whiff of being associated with the fringe was enough to sink him when Democrats went to the voting booth (the 'scream' was after he'd lost big). We're just not the hatred, bile, and spittle party. So if that's your thing, you won't be popular among regular Democrats. Sorry folks. That's just the way it is.

-C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[madfloridian]

26. I disagree with so much of your post.

Too much to address tonight because of the research involved in finding all the files.

See, that is the point. Who said we were fringe? Our DFA group was moderate and sensible in all things. We were anti-war, but then it was an invasion based on lies. More should have been against it.

So saying he was "associated" with the fringe was simply the talking point of a very rich and powerful voice.....the think tank called the DLC.

And implying that we posted stuff here not fit to be shared??? That is a bunch of hogwash. That group was trying to make us look bad. They had a lot of power back then. Maybe not as much now.

[Live and Learn]

67. +1 nt

[Enthusiast]

82. You deserve a massive plus one!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

219. The DU is home to the anti-Democratic-party left...

...the constant upvoted screaming about how much people here hate the "authoritarian" President Obama is evidence of that.

But polls show that about 32% of Americans self-identify as liberals (it's up, which is not terribly bad - I'm happy to take people who vote the right way for the wrong reasons), and of those, 85% approve of President Obama's policies.

So what does that leave us? Less than 5% of the U.S. public has the "I'm a liberal who hates President Obama for being a right-winger" sort of mantra, which is almost assumed to be correct on the D.U. And that's being generous. It's actually much less.

Again, Dean's campaign collapsed in Iowa. He never recovered, even in the Northeast. If he'd had real legs, the "scream" would have just been the media's ineffectual hit job. But unlike Obama's Reverend Wright "God damned American 'scandal'", Dean had no real support. He was viewed as being too confrontational. So his campaign collapsed.

He appealed to the same sort of folks who dream of punishing people they disagree with, instead of seeking to persuade them. But that doesn't actually work to win elections. And we have had elections which have shown that.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[madfloridian]

221. the "anti-Democratic-party left"? Very judgemental.

"He appealed to the same sort of folks who dream of punishing people they disagree with, instead of seeking to persuade them"

No, not really. I don't think you really understand what the point is when we feel the pain after all these years and see it start again with Cowan and the like.

You are really overstating the number of "haters". God, I hate that term. It's really quite childish when you think about it.

When our party leaders are acting like the other party, we need to call them on it. The desire to make the safety nets for seniors and the needy front and center for change was dead wrong....and we will keep calling them on it.

Most people when asked publicly if they are liberal probably hesitate to admit it. It was tainted by not only the GOP but our own party leaders. They tried to make us ashamed to be called by that name. I was that way for a while, but I have grown up through the years. I find it liberating to call myself liberal. I am proud of it.

And I am now very much offended by Democrats who are fearful of labor, disdainful toward minorities, and who are treating teachers as naughty children.

You really assume a lot when you say we are anti-Democratic.....the opposite is true. Most everyone I see post is very much a Democrat. It is the guys in DC who are often not acting like ones.

The contempt for those of us who speak out is so very obvious here. It's a crying shame. I was excited once to be a Democrat, and I want to feel that way again. I see signs of some changing a little, and I hope it continues. They have worried for years more about how to please the right wing and keep them from attacking them instead of doing what is really right for the country.

I hope the inkling of change continues and grows.

[Phlem]

37. " This is what he actually wrote:"

really, where's the evidence?

and having to post this: -C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

is sad.

-p

[frylock]

144. if you have to announce to the world that you're a member of the "reality-based" community..

then you probably aren't.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

220. I'm quoting the text of the ACTUAL REFERENCED ARTICLE

...as opposed to OP's characterization of it.

That's where the evidence came from.

And "Proud Member of the Reality Based Community" is a slam on Karl Rove, though clearly if you are too ignorant and incurious to actually read the links of the post you decide to respond to, then I really don't expect you to enter that phrase into google or something so as to avoid such a foolish mistake.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[madfloridian]

222. Baloney. I put a link to the whole article. You are purposely being misleading.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

224. Actually, you did exactly. Which was good.

However, your title and argument then mischaracterized what the article said, so I went and quoted the relevant text.

Phlem then basically accused me of making up the quote - that came directly from the article that you linked. And that's why we're here.

No. Kudos for putting in the link to the actual article in question. I will give you that.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Phlem]

232. Ooh name calling and everything.

As others have said to me..... I could report you and git ya in trouble and blah blah blah. So I guess you support Hillary's run? Third way all the way!? So someone called you on your BS and that's not ok, until someone looks your actual crap up and tells your wrong and that's OK?



-p

[ConservativeDemocrat]

235. Name calling?

Boy guy, do you lack self awareness. I gather you're about 16 years old? 14?

This whole post was started with name calling and mischaracterization. I then "called" out the OP, quoting the exact words that were used straight from the actual link were mischaracterized, and you then decided that I'd somehow made this quote up. You also added a gratuitous insult which betrays your profound ignorance.

I told you to stop embarrassing yourself, and now you complain about "name calling" when in the very same paragraph you use the phrase "bullshit" and "crap". All about things in which the verifiable facts prove that I am correct.

In the spirit of the Christmas season, I harbor no ill will towards you. I just hope that in a few years you may be able to mentally grow up. So let me give you a proverbial pat on the head and send you on your way. You're adorable!

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

p.s. I will support the Democratic nominee for President of the United States in 2016 no matter who it is, unlike many of the anti-Democratic-Party left, many who post here.

[Phlem]

236. yep.

more of the same. Welcome to ignore. Merry Christmas!

[The Wizard]

99. The Democrats were weak kneed

in opposition to the the lying thieving Bush cartel. Dean was the first with national recognition to strongly oppose the media driven cartel. Remember when he was chastised by the media for saying the capture of Saddam Hussein did not make us one bis safer? He was right, the media was wrong. But chest thumping and chanting USA USA USA still sells to a sizable portion of the population that is unwitting rubes.

[lunasun]

123. +1

[Phlem]

233. +2

-p

[treestar]

23. I dislike these attempts to divide Democrats

It's hard enough for liberals to work together to win elections. They think for themselves and don't just follow the leader. But using this bitterness to attempt to divide them and point out their disagreements only helps the right. The right can stick together no matter what. It's inherent in each side's position.

[Phlem]

27. Hear that everyone! I don't believe you can walk and chew gum at the same time!

Jeebus, if you think that's all that can fall a political figure like the president you need to open up your strategy book and dust it off.

And sorry, I've seen what lock step can do.

-p

[treestar]

125. Doesn't respond to my post fairly

there has to be some lock step or nobody will get elected. I call it working together. What working together can do? Look at how much power the Republicans have held onto.

Attempting to divide Democrats does not do anything but help Republicans.

[Phlem]

176. Did we not just elect the guy twice? Even with a host of issues?

-p

[Drunken Irishman]

44. The left is just as guilty of it as the middle...

They want one Democratic Party - just as long as that party conforms to their ideology. The thing is, the Democratic Party can't survive with just the left or just the middle. Wanna know how I know that? 2000 and 2004 - two election cycles that were vastly different.

1) The left fractured from the 90s control of the centrist Clinton wing, which gave rise to guys like Ralph Nader. You can dismiss Nader all you want, but his approach was successful. He made it so that millions of liberals, from Michael Moore on down to people on college campuses, bought into the idea that there was zero difference between Bush and Gore. Zero. Not one difference. They had the same masters and ideas and beliefs and would have identical presidencies. Some probably still hold on to this laughable, miserable and inept belief - but it hurt. Did it cost Gore the election? That's debatable - but no one can say it didn't have some negative impact. In the end, Bush won, we went off to Iraq, thousands died, the economy collapsed and we are far worse off today than when the centrist Bill Clinton left office in 2001.

2) The left returned in 2004. Michael Moore, seeing the error of his ways, embraced the party, first by endorsing a former Republican, and general, who ran a moderate campaign (Wes Clark) and then by supporting Kerry. Hell, even Bill Maher was supporting Kerry because they all realized how awful it was to have Bush as president. The Bush presidency was good for one thing - it proved to most sane, reasonable liberals that there is a very definitive difference between Republicans and Democrats. Sure, the same mindless drones who say it wouldn't have mattered anyway if we elected Gore or Bush in 2000, will continue to the belief there is no difference between either party ... but we all see them as what they are: crackpots who should not be taken all that seriously.

Anyway, the left rallied around Kerry in part because of the Iraq War. In 2000, 80% of liberal voted for Gore. 6% voted for an independent candidate (including Nader). In 2004, 85% of liberals voted for Kerry and the independent received such an insignificant amount of their vote that it didn't even register.

The thing is, Kerry didn't win. Sure, you could protest about Ohio all you want, but he didn't win. Why? Because more moderate and conservative voters voted for Bush than they had four years prior. A lot of that had to do with the war and security, but still, it was enough to tilt the election in Bush' favor. So much so that even had Kerry carried Ohio, he still would have lost the popular vote.

2008 was an election where the liberal and moderate factions came together to defeat the Republicans.

You can't win with just a purely ideological party. Wanna know how I know this? Just look at the Republicans - who've won the popular vote just once in the past 25 years.

[Jamaal510]

76. What some of the

3rd party people apparently overlook is that even if their ideal candidate were to win, they would still need to put in the work to also give them a Congress that will work with them. That is why this current administration hasn't gotten as much accomplished as we all had hoped. And it's interesting that people such as Jill Stein and Ralph Nader go on about how the 2 parties are similar, despite the fact that job growth has significantly been larger under one party, while the other party has been the one starting wars and spending money we don't have.

[treestar]

131. +1

Unreasonable extremists love the idea of power in the hands of one person. That does make it easier to "get things done." But it's not our system.

[Enthusiast]

83. Pure hogwash. And worse.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[treestar]

132. Drunken's post is reasonable

and at least made an effort to analyze the situation.

[Drunken Irishman]

138. How is it hogwash?

Has the party ever won an election without uniting the factions within it?

[Enthusiast]

184. Oh, you two!

[Doctor_J]

120. Oh, please. The "centrists" actually GET some stuff from the party

the DINOs get domestic spying, union-busting, privatization of what should be public services, insurance mandates instead of health care, "entitlement" cuts, and "free" trade - things that far right conservatives want. Liberals get almost nothing, get are expected to show up and vote for conservatives just because the Repukes MIGHT outlaw abortion. 2010 was a prefect example of what happens when Dems in DC appease republicans. The Repukes rank and file show up more often because the people they vote for actually give them what they said they would.

[treestar]

133. Sounds like you dislike centrists more than you dislike Republicans

It's harder for liberals to "give you" what you want because Republicans have tools to fight against it that liberals don't have. Government shut downs, etc. Just not funding the government when they have the power. Anyone who can't see that and keeps fighting Democrats and dividing them is never going to get what they want.

[truedelphi]

168. Horse puckey. n/t

[Doctor_J]

230. I dislike conservatives of any nominal affiliation

the more conservative they are, the more I dislike them.

My view of the country is driven by core beliefs (ideology). I believe in health care as a right, clean air and water as a right, quality education as a right, public money for public services, vast cuts to the pentagon AND all of the black ops that are sucking money from the country, honest wages for an honest job, expansion of anti-poverty programs like SS and UE, and so forth. These views are orthogonal to not only all republicans, but a large portion of current Dems - namely the DLC/Turd Way dems. And voting for and supporting DINOs is not helping anything, period. The republicans are completely hopeless. There isn't a single one, anywhere in the US, that I would vote for. The ONLY place for me to fight this battle is within my party.

So please, get your head out of your ass and stop blaming the (increasingly few) people who are actually trying to rescue the country from the conservatives

[treestar]

130. anyone adhering to the ideas in paragraph one

is too unreasonable to deal with. We've got as much chance of convincing tea partiers to vote with us.

[polichick]

141. So we all should stick together and accept the fact that...

the powers-that-be are dragging the party further and further into RepubliCon territory?

No thanks.

[treestar]

142. I said it was hard to stick together

So there's no point in trying to flare up the divides if we want to win. Your post does not respond to that.

[polichick]

143. My point is we shouldn't stick together under current circumstances...

Also, it's undemocratic to attempt to silence dissent.

DU doesn't need thought police.

On edit: That's what primaries are for - to fight it out.

[stevenleser]

146. When the left can't form a coalition, the result is a hard right government & long term disaster

Nothing good comes of it as the right not only drives policies, they spend the entire time in power indoctrinating the populace.

[polichick]

147. That kind of thinking turned the Dems into a second corporate party...

that pushes RepubliCon policies. It's a message of fear that keeps the status quo in place.

No thanks.

[stevenleser]

148. It's not "thinking", it's looking at obvious historical facts. You may not like what history shows

but the facts dont care if you dont like them.

[polichick]

149. Primaries are the place to fight it out...

It's undemocratic to try to silence dissent.

[stevenleser]

151. Your straw man has nothing to do with my point.

Have the primary and discussion. Then support the nominee or not and let a Reagan or George W. Bush come to power.

[polichick]

170. Your point seems to be that the left should fall in line...

and mine is FORGET IT.

[stevenleser]

171. No, that is your straw man. nt

[polichick]

199. That's not what you're suggesting here?...

"When the left can't form a coalition, the result is a hard right government & long term disaster

Nothing good comes of it as the right not only drives policies, they spend the entire time in power indoctrinating the populace."


Sounds like typical "electable-third-way-Dems-are-better-than-the-right" scare tactics. That's not going to fly with a lot of principled Dems next time around.

[Doctor_J]

172. We had a coalition in 2009. We got a hard right government anyway

If politicians don't represent the people who vote for them, those people stop voting for them.

[stevenleser]

173. No, we didn't. We didn't get anything like what the Tea Party here would do in power. nt

[Doctor_J]

177. The Teabaggers are about 10% of the electorate. We had more than 50%

after we destroyed the Repukes in 2008 and had huge congressional majorities. The response was to act exactly like the people who had been voted out.

Personally I have doubts that it was a mistake. Obama was put into office, based on a completely bullshit campaign, to pass things that Bush was unable to get away with. He campaigned on "change" and offered almost none. He has announced that he is actually a Republican. I wish he'd said that during the campaign instead of after I voted for him twice.

[stevenleser]

178. The far right is always a small slice thats why it takes a fractured left for them to take power.

My point stands.

[Maedhros]

187. I think you're inaccurate in your assumption that the Democratic Party is synonymous with the Left.

Coalition building amongst the Left was relevant to Democratic Party politics in 1968, but not so much today. The Democratic Party is dominated by entrenched interests that see "the Left" as a problem - those interests don't seek to bring us into the fold in the spirit of compromise, they seek to coerce our vote through fear of the Republicans.

On every issue the Left is always asked to surrender our agenda in favor of Right-leaning policies and candidates, ostensibly in order for the Party to compete with the Republicans. The effect is that for the last 30 years, while the Party holding the White House and Congress may change from time to time, the corporate-friendly and civil-rights-averse policies march on unimpeded. That is a problem for the Left, but not apparently for the Democrats.

In that sense, there is some truth to Nader's assertion. Does it really matter who is driving the bus if it continues to accelerate toward the cliff?

[stevenleser]

189. The Tea Party doesn't think John McCain is right wing either. But he is.

There are folks who dont think you are really left either. These are meaningless arguments.

[Maedhros]

193. "Left" is not as subjective as you make it out to be.

"Left" is pro-union, pro-education, pro-civil rights, pro-working wage, pro-welfare state. This is not really up for debate.

At various times during and after the Clinton presidency the Left has been asked to give ground on one or more of these points. Recently, we've been asked to stomach anti-union anti-education policies (thank your, Arne Duncan), anti-civil rights policies (NDAA, warrantless surveillance, execution without due process), and anti-welfare state policies ("reform" of Social Security, extension of Bush tax cuts paid for with cuts to service programs).

[stevenleser]

194. And its not as narrow as you suggest it is. All of those things are common to the dreaded 3rd wayers

too.

[winter is coming]

208. "The Democratic Party is dominated by entrenched interests that see 'the Left' as a problem"

That should be its own OP, as it encapsulates our current situation very neatly.

[WillyT]

25. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[madfloridian]

58. Thank you, WillyT

Always good to see you around posting.

[dionysus]

30. to this day, Dean is awesome, but he's not some uber liberal. he's a centrist with brass stones who

speaks truth to power.

that's not an endorsement of centrism (as far as dems are concerned), but a fact. his 50 state strategy involved electing dems in red states that would be considered DINOS in blue states.

FWIW I wish he'd run again.

[Live and Learn]

68. +1 Still a Deniac. nt

[truebrit71]

166. He's a damned site more liberal than the President is...

...I too wish he'd run again...when he was party chair he really got things done...

[dionysus]

237. yeah, but he's not as cool as this Dean;

[winter is coming]

31. Dean's message was "fiery"? And also "elitist, weak-kneed, brain-dead"?

I'm surprised it wasn't also a floor wax and a dessert topping.

[myrna minx]

36. Oh how I remember those dark days. K&R n/t

[madfloridian]

38. There were some dark times, weren't there?

It was the first time I realized the contempt the party leaders felt for us. It was a real eye-opener, and it hurt.

[LovingA2andMI]

47. What makes folks believe these "dark days" have left?

In fact, they are still around here and now with:

1). Democrats laying down while Detroit dies -- So called Democrat Mayor Dave Bing, former State Treasurer Andy Dillon and too many other self-proclaimed Democrats to name.

2). Democrats saying nothing much worth anything while Detroit died -- Ask the State Party.

3). Democrats forcing a candidate without a primary -- I.E. the current State Governors race.

4). Democrats ducking and hiding from real questions from average citizens -- refer to point three.

5). Democrats voting with Republicans on issues such as keeping a Woman's Right to Choose with the Private Insurance SHE, HER HUSBAND or DOMESTIC PARTNER pays for -- Ask Senator Tupac Hunter plus two other "Democrats" in the State House.

See, the third way is not gone away. In fact, they are still in all things Washington, D.C. and Third Way Children (analogy here) are controlling or hold elected positions of power across our nation. Detroit and Michigan, is just one example.

[M_A]

213. and today we see this;

"As the United States finally puts a decade of war behind it, a group of senators, including 15 Democrats, is defying the White House and threatening to push the country into a fresh war with Iran."

[link:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/23/senate-democrats-iran-war_n_4493636.html|

[geomon666]

49. Ah, good times

And by good I mean horrible.

[woo me with science]

50. K&R Their primary goal is to get us to shut up.

That is why we must never, ever shut up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4168937

[Enthusiast]

86. That's why we see all the paid operators here.

Last edited Mon Dec 23, 2013, 09:17 AM - Edit history (1)

Their goal is to confuse the discussion and throw a wrench in the works. We know the "center" has changed. What they want to characterize as fringe is not fringe.

They want to defund public education, cut social security and medicare, continue to fill the military industrial complex trough, promote free trade deals that undermine the American worker and national sovereignty. Yet they want to call us fringe and extreme. It's downright fucking amazing that they even get away with calling themselves Democrats

[Tarheel_Dem]

90. How to tell the difference, we've got "paid operators" from every faction here.

[Enthusiast]

92. No we don't.

Who would pay the "operators" to advocate single payer health care, higher taxes on the wealthy and corporations or measures to curtail greenhouse gas emissions? My positions have no big money support.

There are no paid advocates for the majority of Americans. We have no lobbyists and no paid sock puppets on the internet.

[Tarheel_Dem]

98. If you don't think the Koch Bros. money hasn't been spread out equally...

I've got a bridge to sell ya. If that weren't the case, there'd be no need for MIRT. You Better Believe It. Divide & conquer is as old as the hills, and every faction plays that game. I thought you were much smarter than that.

[Enthusiast]

100. You believe the Kochs and others would

pay sockpuppets to advocate a position contrary to their own? They don't need to do that. Why would they do that?

The money is spread out equally? No way! If their goal is to divide and conquer they still do not need to advocate positions favorable to working class Americans.

What would the Kochs hope to gain by paying someone to advocate expanding social security, for example? Would the Kochs pay a sockpuppet to argue in favor of green house gas limits?

There are no internet sockpuppets arguing in favor of populist positions. Those arguing in favor of populist positions are actual real people, like me.

[Tarheel_Dem]

101. It's not the "position" they're arguing. It's the division they're sowing.

Smarten up.

[Enthusiast]

102. How insulting.

Smarten up? I'm done.

[Tarheel_Dem]

104. I kinda figure you were done with your first insult to other DU'ers..."paid operators"?

I guess we're both done.

[Scuba]

110. You don't think there are "paid operators" here?

Why some are here all week, every week.

[Tarheel_Dem]

136. Obviously, reading isn't fundamental in your case. Re-read my post.

I know they're here, we just disagree about who "they" are.

[Pholus]

112. Ahhhh, I see.

So get back in the trenches and be a good little peasant.

Elitist attitudes are always offputting.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. What kind of division is sewn in multi cultural Party by folks who say Latin America

is 'but a cyst on the anus of the world' as you have done? When asked to remove that post because of the xenophobic and bigoted nature of the post and the fact that many DUers are Latino, that several prime Democratic candidates are as well, you sneered and carried on....
But that's not divisive in your eyes? Of course not, you are above all reproach, you post like kindness personified, when you use racist, viciuos language it is an act of love and wisdom meted out in equal measure!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3173564

[Tarheel_Dem]

137. I stood by the statement then, as I do now. Next question?

[truedelphi]

181. Wha-a-t! ??? n/t

[Scuba]

105. You're hilarious.

[Tarheel_Dem]

107. Why thank you. I'm here all week.

[treestar]

135. Anyone who disagrees with me is a "paid operator."

That non-argument is old and tired around here.

It's just silly, because the more divisive posters come from the far left, and so are as likely if not more so to be the "paid operators."

[Tarheel_Dem]

139. +10000. They're small, but loud, and overrepresented on the internet, especially DU.

They're on the left, but they have a common goal with Republicans, and that's the destruction of the Democratic Party.

Loser #1

Loser #2

And the biggest loser of all:



This is who we're dealing with. They've been trying to change the mission of DU from the outset, and it heats up every election cycle.

[grahamhgreen]

154. So y'all agree we need to raise taxes on the rich to pre-Reagan levels, exit costly trade agreements

And provide Medicare for all?

As well as slash military and NSA spending, prosecute torturers, banksters, and war criminals as well as those responsible for violation the fourth amendment?

Or you just want Republican policies instituted?

If your not for these things, try forming your own party, this ones ours

[Tarheel_Dem]

158. You don't have a fuckin' party, or did you forget the thread you're posting on?

[treestar]

200. Now that's a divisive statement

And you do realize the Republicans still have power, so how about not helping them retain it or get more?

[grahamhgreen]

216. Do you agree with any of those points, and which ones?

[pintobean]

190. This was a head scratcher

At Mon Dec 23, 2013, 03:31 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

+10000. They're small, but loud, and overrepresented on the internet, especially DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4216951

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

No comments added by alerter

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 23, 2013, 03:47 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nope. Leave it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I just see this as an opinion really.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Tarheel_Dem]

197. The Third party Alert Task Force is in full effect today:

They often forget the bottom line here which, AFAIK, still remains:

Vote for Democrats.

Winning elections is important —therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

I despise the division that Greens, and all the other so-called leftists bring to this board even more than I hate Freepers. Greens and other leftist groups claim to be smarter than us "sheeple", but they can't win a damn election to save their lives, so they settle for harrassing & trying to intimidate members of the Democratic Party.

Thanks for sharing that with me. Good to know there are actually six "Democrats" left at Democratic Underground.

[pintobean]

198. That made me laugh.

I think there are a few more than six.

What I found amusing was that the alerter couldn't come up with anything to justify the alert. Oh well, that person has to wait 24 hours before they can waste 6 more people's time.

[Tarheel_Dem]

201. I feel sorry for that one. Must be hell to rule an internet site, and still have no real world....

relevance.

Merry Christmas, pinto!

[pintobean]

209. Merry Christmas Tarheel_Dem

best wishes to you and yours.

[Number23]

188. Exactly. But we're all supposed to pretend that's not what's happening here

In the last six months, Skinner has been cleaning house and getting rid of a slew of really obvious trolls.

For every Obama supporter that was tombed there were about 9 "principled left detractors" that got the boot to their ass, but again, I guess we're not supposed to notice that.

[Doctor_J]

122. Shut up...AND VOTE

THey want to insult and ignore us in between elections.

[George II]

52. That's 10 years ago....................

[madfloridian]

53. What goes around comes around...

Unfortunately.

Not that much has changed.

[Doctor_J]

121. And its gotten worse since The Great Appeaser took office

[1000words]

55. A lot of folks were chased off this site for calling attention to the DLC

There was a time, the very slightest criticism of "Big Dog" instantly made you suspect of being a "freeper troll."

The evolution of this site, as a reflection of the Party has been fascinating.

[madfloridian]

57. Growth and change...

all good.

Takes time.

[liberal_at_heart]

59. Yes I'm sure they will try to purge us liberals when the 2014 elections come around.

I can hold my tongue. I'm not going anywhere. And the best part: They cannot control my actions in the real world. They do not get to fill out my voting ballot. Only I can do that. And I will vote for the most liberal candidates available.

[solarhydrocan]

56. kick and recommend. When madfloridian starts typing...

the third way/DLC thugs start sweating.

excellent work, as usual.

Ever wonder what the NSA has on you? It's probably a pretty big file. Gigabytes maybe. Keep typing!

[madfloridian]

60. .....

That made me smile. Thanks for the kind words.

[SidDithers]

111. Green for victory!!...

Sid

[L0oniX]

128. Don't you mean "Red Green"?

[MisterP]

63. the corporatist think they're fighting the elite! the purgers think they're protecting the Party

from being undermined!

in the 80s the presidents of Honduras denied there were any Contras in-country (and that anyone saying so was a dam'commie)--now, both these were in the Liberal Party, and not a single voter was North-Korea-delusional enough, not a single partisan flack so worshipful enough, that they started blathering how that party's Your Only Hope, and that they were The Only Forces Stopping the Military

[progressoid]

70. Yer damn skippy!

"Underground" is part of the reason I joined this rabble.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. The party has devoted a LOT of time and effort to sucking up to the 1%...

The #1 thing they've been doing is assuring the 1% is that Obama isn't the Socialist we voted for.

[iamthebandfanman]

72. well of course

and we got blamed for our loss in 2004...
even tho we ran Kerry...

....

[Notafraidtoo]

74. To them

To them "the fringe" just means not doing what the chamber of commerce and multi national corporations want you to do, the goal of the new deal was to keep elderly,feeble and sick people off the street in mass, i say it is doing a damn good job and should be improved upon not abandoned.

Does anyone know what their solution to these problems are? don't tell me the private sector. cant have the cause of poverty be the solution its just not in their short term financial interest which is all they care about these days. Is it charity? nothing stopping that from working now but it isn't not even close. Is it you are on your own like republicans believe? well we had 1,000s of years of that in about every corner of the world tried every which way and its shit for everyone but a small % of people.

The best economic,educated and free country's in the world practice strong new deal like policy's, why do so many people want to give the keys to the kingdom to people whose only concern is the amount of money they make the next quarter at any cost, that's what i call "brain dead" and it certainly wont encourage people to invest and take pride in their country.

[daleanime]

75. K&R....

[Enthusiast]

77. Third Way believes in making the Democratic Party into

a reasonable facsimile of the Republican Party. I oppose their Koch Brothers goals.

Any Democrat with the taint of Third Way needs to hit the road, jack. We want nothing to do with Third Way or their anti-New Deal policies.

"A former aide to Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., Gerstein wrote in The Wall Street Journal that Democrats have "fallen right back into the elitist, weak-kneed, brain-dead trap" they thought they'd escaped with Bill Clinton."

I would remind you that POS Lieberman addressed the Republican National Convention. How is that for a good Democrat?

[Scuba]

106. +1

[think]

78. The Iraq war.

[Enthusiast]

79. Recommended X 1000!

Well done, madfloridian!

Democratic candidates must embrace economic populism right now! Contrary to what the Third Way tells us, promoting economic fairness is a winning position. Every poll tells us this is true.

Make no mistake about it, Third Way is a Republican front group. Their positions are indistinguishable from the Reagan Republicans.

[hootinholler]

81. Isn't that about the time the sensible woodchucks showed up?

That was a tad before my time started here.

[madfloridian]

87. Shhh

We don't talk about them here.

[hootinholler]

94. Ooohhhhh I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok!

I drink all night and I work all day!

[madfloridian]

116. lol

[Solly Mack]

85. K&R

[pampango]

88. ".. disproportionately magnifying the voices of the activist groups with the loudest, most combative

and populist voices."

Ironic that this is still what most Americans think about the tea party and its influence, though they use financial support from rich conservatives and the mass media more than Internet forums (though they have those, too).

[emsimon33]

89. K&R

[ananda]

93. Right now the real fringe has way too much power and money.

.. And it's not us here at DU.

[another_liberal]

95. I'm sure . . .

I'm sure all of those commentators who were so concerned that the Democratic Party was becoming too liberal have had time by now to come out as the social conservatives they really always were at heart. They were actually never part of the progressive movement to begin with.

Let them go place bids on George W. Bush's latest dog painting, or whatever you do to kiss the one percent's ass.

[Starry Messenger]

97. K&R

[Scuba]

109. Great thread, with many replies illustrating the Turd Way's presence here.

thanks madfloridian.

[marmar]

117. Totally. They've almost become cariacatures of themselves.

[antigop]

126. Yep. nt

[SidDithers]

113. Kucinich 2004!...nt

Sid

[stevenleser]

119. Interesting article, even more interesting reactions.

Seems the best way to win elections is to assemble a grand coalition of progressive and more mainstream Democrats.

The article is the opposite of what is needed to do that, but then again, you rarely see examples of how to do that coming from any corner.

[antigop]

127. great thread, mad! Thanks. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

134. DU prospered, FR foundered. Kudos to DU! . . nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Echoes are great

But according to Alexa (they track shit like traffic and popularity, and are very valuable if you want to sell a site) FR is actually very much ahead of DU. You can search things like that on the web you know.

FYI, huff post, a news agregatpr site, what is fear this wants to become and not too good at it, is in the top twenty sites.

This is a self inflicted wound since those crazy fringy libs have been toombstoned, ppr'do or simply run out of town. And this place is so unsafe, that many of us post what we think on a myriad of subjects, somewhere else.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

182. Alexa is bogus; it depends on people dumb enough to install their toolbar

No wonder FR gets more Alexa hits than DU.

Even in the subset of internet users who use the Alexa toolbar, DU has more college educated people than FR. I'm sure that Alexa users in general have less education than the average internet user. No wonder DU gets a lower Alexa score.

Other points (from the subset that uses Alexa): DU visitors spend more time on the site and visit more pages.

huff post, a news agregatpr site, what is fear this wants to become and not too good at it

What does this mean? I can't comprehend the grammar or the meaning.

This is a self inflicted wound since those crazy fringy libs have been toombstoned, ppr'do or simply run out of town. And this place is so unsafe, that many of us post what we think on a myriad of subjects, somewhere else.

Are you talking about Huffington Post, FR, DU, or Alexa?

[nadinbrzezinski]

206. Alexa might be bogus, but it's ratings are still used for buying and selling of sites

and I am referring to DU.

Suffice it to say, these days, I refrain for the most part from OPs, and the few are attacked to the point of actually being comedic.

Edit to add, I am not alone.

[FloriTexan]

140. Kick & Rec

[Zorra]

145. Recommend. nt

[grantcart]

150. Who is Randolph Court and why are we giving any weight to what he wrote a decade ago?

I googled the name and didn't get anything on the first 5 pages of google, seems to be a common real estate name for apartments.

[stevenleser]

153. Well, he picks on the bigger DU cliques' favorite boogeyman so that's all that matters.

Some folks are all about telling them what they want to hear.

[Number23]

191. Between the revisionsism of who and what Howard Dean was (a STAUNCH moderate

with some progressive ideas who would have been skewered by the same crew lionizing him five minutes into his first term) as well as the efforts to twist what was written in the article referred to in the OP, the obvious attempt to stir up the unending far left vs. Democrats division that seems to bring certain posters in this forum immeasurable pleasure (which Lord only knows why because historically in the US and in other countries, the fringes get power for a term or two and then go right back to being marginalized and ignored), and the obvious attempts at martyrdom (but with lots of unironic name calling thrown in for good measure), this thread is probably one of the weirdest things I've seen here all year.

What's the point of this now? And as grantcart and others have said, who is this person and why should we care about what they wrote yesterday, let alone 10 years ago? Too weird. But I guess when you're playing the "we're so important, WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING US!!1!1" card, no time is too long ago and no name is too obscure.

[madfloridian]

195. There is no need to answer sometimes.

When some people are doing the very same thing that is being critiqued in the OP, and they don't even realize it....then words won't mean much to them.

As to being ignored....I don't think so that much anymore.

The same policy group, think tank, though by a different name.....just did the same thing to Elizabeth Warren. So it is still going on, and they same ones may control party policy....but we are really not silent now. And we never were fringe.

[Number23]

196. If Elizabeth Warren does run, her issues will be very different from Dean's.

And a web site that had Dennis Kucinich beating Obama in every poll and whines that he is a "right wing fascist Corpa-Dem" when just about every poll shows that Americans by and large are concerned that he is too liberal can call itself whatever it wants, but "fringe" would not be too far off in my opinion.

[madfloridian]

155. He's been replaced by Jon Cowan and Jim Kessler

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304337404579213923151169790

Same song second verse.

[Doctor_J]

174. I would ask the same question about Gerstein

[Kurovski]

157. Howard who?

K&R!

[rocktivity]

161. Ten years later, DU is still alive and kicking

Is the DLC???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1202358


rocktivity

[DonCoquixote]

163. It was not enough

That the third way/dlc got most of what they wanted from Obama. He hired Clinton stooges like Summers and Timmy Geitner, he hired Clinton so she could continue to stir hostility in the mid east, and adapted policies that were right out of the third way, even the hated individual mandate. No, none of that is good enough, they will not be happy until either Hillary is president, or someone to her right is (thus the promotion of Chris Christie.)

Well, sorry to say, if the centrist types think they will get a bloodless primary, they will be mistaken. At the veryvery least, the primary needs to tell Clinton she needs to make a hard left turn if she has a chance, that includes repartions and outright kissing our feet. If Clinton loses, then whoever beats her can say "I beat the Clinton machine (see Obama, Barack) which is one hell of a resume.

[colsohlibgal]

167. Neo Democrats Have Helped Get Us In This Mess

They can still make me cringe too. Schumer admits he's all Wall Street all the time and actually said the far left was worse and on less solid ground than the far right. Really? Being for economic fairness for all is worse than wanting nuclear war and to cut food stamps?

Schumer is now really in my penalty box with Baucus and some others.

As I've learned more and absorbed more I keep moving left. The ruling class is screwing all of us, many far worse than me, and it's wrong.

[truedelphi]

183. But the officials in Israel and AIPAC love him n/t

[DFW]

175. "Unfortunately for them......"

The Deaniacs didn't die out with the end of Howard's candidacy.

We grew up, got older, wiser, and some of us even got lucky enough to be able to financially support progressive candidates of our choice. Howard may not be running for anything now, but I was a proud (and VERY early) contributor to Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Baldwin, etc. and now Wendy Davis back home in TX.

The Republicans try to distract from the Kochs, Sheldon Adelson, Rove's buddies, etc. by screaming "George Soros!!" as if he were the Sultan of Brunei. But it's not George Soros they should worry about. It those of us who scraped up $5 for Howard ten years ago and now can scrape up $50 or even $500 they should worry about. The lot of the private citizen almost always improves under a Democratic President and declines under a Republican president unless you own stock in MIC companies or oil. Like the old saying goes, "If you want to live like a Republican, vote for a Democrat."

The people who used to listen to the Grateful Dead were stereotyped to be acid-dropping hippies in 1968. Now the Dead are in the "oldies" section. The "wild-eyed radicals" that some right-leaning Democrats wrote about in 2003 are now committee chairs, or even members of the House or even Senators today. Who thought in 2003 we'd have an openly gay woman campaigning for the U.S. Senate and WINNING?

Yes, sure there will always be the heated arguments between those who espouse their own line of politics and those who disagree with them. But the "radicals" of one decade are rarely the radicals of the next one. The revolutionary Bolsheviks of 1917 gave way to the "conservative doctrinaire hardliners" under Stalin and his successors until Gorbachev came along.

So we wild-eyed radicals of 2003 have now elected Senators like Sanders, Warren and Baldwin. We can't (yet) do it in every state, but sooner or later, even southern states will get tired of looking at statistics showing us to be last in health, health care, nutrition, education and environmental protection. Ten years ago, a Wendy Davis would have been a one-headline sensation. Today, she is a lock as our candidate for governor of Texas, and, given the resources they already pouring into that race, the Republicans are scared shitless that she will make it.

[madfloridian]

229. "The Deaniacs didn't die out with the end of Howard's candidacy."

A very true post, DFW. This part:

"So we wild-eyed radicals of 2003 have now elected Senators like Sanders, Warren and Baldwin. We can't (yet) do it in every state, but sooner or later, even southern states will get tired of looking at statistics showing us to be last in health, health care, nutrition, education and environmental protection. Ten years ago, a Wendy Davis would have been a one-headline sensation. Today, she is a lock as our candidate for governor of Texas, and, given the resources they already pouring into that race, the Republicans are scared shitless that she will make it."

From one wild-eyed radical to another...thanks for the nice post.

[robertpaulsen]

179. "Much of what they post...would not be appropriate to repeat here."

Damn right! Because the DLC is not appropriate for Democratic victory. You'd think Third Way would learn some history.

[Doctor_J]

231. Yeah, they mean posts like, "We need health care, not private insurance"

Such a radical concept would never be repeated on a Turd Way propaganda site.

[DirkGently]

180. A failed attempt to dismiss anything left of Reagan

as politically unworkable. All that delicious Wallstreet money couldn't be left on the table!

And in return, all Big Money wanted was enough deregulation to strip trillions of middle class wealth and stuff it down their insatiable gullets, while demanding taxpayers fund the bonuses they earned killing us all.

[PowerToThePeople]

211. DU was a threat, that is why the "Hordes of turd wayers" we see now

Hey, I can theorize, right?

[MisterP]

217. "a third of a third"

[TransitJohn]

218. K&R great post! eom

n/t

[Uncle Joe]

234. The Internet has/is enhancing democracy and I believe contibuting to voter turnout.

Thanks for the thread, madfloridian.