Feminism 101: What is ACTUALLY meant by the "MALE GAZE"

[Bonobo]

No, it's not men gazing, looking, staring or ogling women. Although I can understand how someone might make that mistake.

It is something specific and that's just not it.

No, "male gaze" is a phrase used in media studies, art criticism, advertising and the like.

So, for the purposes of education, here is what it actually is:
---------------------------------------------------------
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/faq-what-is-the-“male-gaze”/

...the introduction of the term “the male gaze” can be traced back to Laura Mulvey and her essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema” which was published in 1975. In it, Mulvey states that in film women are typically the objects, rather than the possessors, of gaze because the control of the camera (and thus the gaze) comes from factors such as the as the assumption of heterosexual men as the default target audience for most film genres. While this was more true in the time it was written, when Hollywood protagonists were overwhelmingly male, the base concept of men as watchers and women as watched still applies today, despite the growing number of movies targeted toward women and that feature female protagonists.

Though it was introduced as part of film theory, the term can and is often applied to other kinds of media. It is often used in critiques of advertisements, television, and the fine arts. For instance, John Berger (1972) studied the European nude (both past and present) and found that the female model is often put on display directly to the spectator/painter or indirectly through a mirror, thus viewing herself as the painter views her.

The male gaze in advertising is actually a fairly well-studied topic, and it — rather than film — is often what comes to mind when the term is invoked. This is because, more than just being an object of a gaze, the woman in the advertisement becomes what’s being bought and sold: “The message though was always the same: buy the product, get the girl; or buy the product to get to be like the girl so you can get your man” in other words, “‘Buy’ the image, ‘get’ the woman” (Wykes, p. 41). In this way, the male gaze enables women to be a commodity that helps the products to get sold (the “sex sells” adage that comes up whenever we talk about modern marketing). Even advertising aimed at women is not exempt: it engages in the mirror effect described above, wherein women are encouraged to view themselves as the photographer views the model, therefore buying the product in order to become more like the model advertising it.

[Control-Z]

1. And.......??? (nt)

[LeftyMom]

2. He wants to let the feminists on another thread know that they're Doing it Wrong.

He knows because he got a degree in Gender Studies from Google University.

[TDale313]

3. Wishin' I could rec your response :-)

[sibelian]

4. ...shrug

Looks like they are, to me. His source is avowedly feminist and a cursory search of the term reveals articles supporting the primary thesis of his link.

Unless the feminists on the other thread have specifically indicated that they are ignoring the original use of the term for the sake of their argument, I can't see how he's wrong.

Do you want to replace the original meaning with the new one?

[LeftyMom]

7. It's not exclusively a media criticism term.

It manifests itself in meatspace, and one manifestation is that constant Assessment of Potential Fuckability that women are subject to for the crime of having tits in public.

[BainsBane]

13. Certainly not. It's used in reference to Bentham's Panopticon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

[Ghost Dog]

21. Perfectly put.

But that 'constant assessment' or appraisal you refer to is surely quite universal, at least at certain stages in life, amongst all sexual orientations?

The problem is clearly related to attitude, as manifested in the 'gaze' (which, since we're into etymology in this thread, I reckon in this context should be called the 'stare'), as differentiated from the quick appreciative glance or more subtle forms of paying attention?

Heh, and also while we're into etymology, I'd like to point out that the term 'gender' is or was a term employed in the analysis of grammar in human languages. Words have gender (in eg. latin languages); this grammatical gender is associated with what we now call inanimate objects - the masculine sun, the feminine moon, etc. But living creatures have sex: the female, the male sex. I think I remember it was sometime in the 'seventies in the UK that 'sex' (as in sexual politics) began to be replaced by 'gender', out of simple conservative prudery probably of US origin but also because the term 'sex' was increasingly being used as a euphemism for 'sex act'.

Thus the English language (and hence the English-thinking mind and English-speaking discourse) mutates and often, imho, becomes simplified to the point of making mutual understanding more difficult than it ought to be.

Although we often, of course, communicate very clearly here at DU!

[hootinholler]

32. Please, stop and listen to yourself

Seriously, please, as much as possible, clear your mind and read what you've written with a fresh mind.

Tell me that women don't exhibit those same behaviors with regards to others they find attractive (or repulsive). If what you say is gender specific, then there would be no beefcake calendars. I would not get snide smiles for the crime of being an older fat guy in public. Female coworkers wouldn't tell me a photo of me in highland attire is hot. My bisexual and lesbian friends wouldn't comment on others who also have tits in public. My bisexual and gay friends wouldn't make comments on packages or biceps either.

Meatspace (sic) works both ways. Oh, and by the way, if I'm staring at your tits in public, it's most likely because you are wearing an ill fitting bra that makes it look like you have 4 and I'm thinking that *can't* be comfortable. (yes, that's a slight exaggeration.)

You've never, ever looked at a man and thought nice ass, right? Not even as an adolescent, right?

We are humans. Sex is the strongest biological urge that we deal with, male or female. We are wired to check each other out. As with any human dealings problems occur when someone always perceives the worst of someone else's actions.

[LeftyMom]

34. When is the last time a woman honked at you, or yelled something inappropriate while driving by?

Or stared at your crotch while you were in public, or a complete stranger commanded you to smile, or touched you inappropriately?

How do you think you'd feel if all of that behavior was CONSTANT from the time you were about twelve? And how would you feel if you, like 1/3 of men, were a victim of rape at the hands of a woman? And women were bigger than you, and socially dominant, and much of this slightly creepy flirting came with an air of implied menace?

Being a leering creep is not okay.

[boston bean]

62. no response from hoot yet. Well, I don't know what his response is,

but usually when this is pointed out, many will tell you it would feel complimentary and they would LOVE IT!

[seabeyond]

64. have a group of women look at a mans crotch when he walks in a door of a restaurant. and see how

"complimented" he feels. does he meet the requirements? is he adequate? inadequate? ya. right.

[loli phabay]

69. i gotta say, i do get my ass checked out a lot, dont know if its jealousy or attraction though

[seabeyond]

74. omg...

all i can say to this. being good, good, good. lol

[loli phabay]

76. rofl, not the reply i expected which made it more funny.

[BainsBane]

200. probuably not

[loli phabay]

203. prob not what. that my ass is not hot or i dont get checked out.

[BainsBane]

205. probuably I just like saying probuably

I can't apoligise.

[loli phabay]

207. very childish, but i expect that from weak people.

[hootinholler]

96. Your last sentence is exactly what I mean.

That is why I generally stay out of the feminist/m.r. threads.

You don't know me at all, did you mean to imply I'm a leering creep?

To answer your questions:

Last week, red line, inappropriate touching, not sure if it was male or female. I've caught people staring at my crotch as well.

Being told out of the blue in a checkout line people who sweat should stay home in their baths. Live with the flash of disgust on clerk's faces when you pay for something for a while.

IDK, I guess that a girlfriend of my older sister informing me that the best part of a boy is his prick doesn't count? How about a step-father asking if I like to suck dick? Does that count in your world view? Was there implied menace that night?

The thing is that most of us have experienced shit. Some of it heavier than others, but still.

How would I feel? Why the way I feel now. It's not like I don't think about this shit. I would (and do) recognize there are serious assholes in the world, but I also realize that not everyone is an asshole. Not by a long shot.

It seems that the more outspoken on both sides are hurting from some experience and if we could get beyond that it would be healthier for all.

I sincerely hope you find peace.

[Marr]

174. On several occasions

I've been asked, in an accusatory way, if I was gay by women I was not interested in. Very rude and presumptuous, certainly-- but for me, the offense stopped with the woman who said it. I've seen others present that same dynamic, with the genders flipped around, as proof that men are pigs who feel 'entitled to sex'.

Like you, I generally stay out of the feminist discussions, because they tend to be filled with broadbrush insults and people making enemies of others who don't actually disagree with them.

[xulamaude]

177. If 'you' don't actually disagree with them

why are 'you' feeling insulted?

[Marr]

179. I guess you aren't familiar with the phrase "broadbrush insult".

I've seen several posters express offense-- and rightly so-- when someone speaks about women generally, or criticizes women in general for some perceived behavior. The same should apply to speaking of men in such general terms. It's largely a matter of phrasing, but words, I am told, matter.

[Whisp]

132. Thanks, LM. Some just don't get it and never will.

You have an exquisite way with words of explanation.

[hootinholler]

133. What will I never get? n/t

[EOTE]

190. "It", and if you have to ask what "It" is, you're wasting your time.

Because, as you've been told before, you don't get "it". Maddeningly circular, I know, but such are things in the HoF. For me, "It" will always be a horrifying clown who terrorizes school children.

[hootinholler]

191. Apparently.

Acknowledgement seems to be a lost art as well.

[EOTE]

192. Acknowledgement is just a ploy used by the patriarchy.

Used by bullies in order to get victims to submit to their demands by requesting clarification. So, I wouldn't expect to receive much in terms of acknowledgement around here.

[seattledo]

206. Exactly

Men just won't admit to the things they do.

[BainsBane]

201. Seriously?

Jesus. You work awfully hard at being completely unaware of the world you live in. Then you top it off by telling women harassed and molested as children that the only reason they felt shame is because they were raised with prudish values. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4219406

[BainsBane]

208. It's exactly the same, no difference in the objectification of men or women at all

That's why a multi-billion dollar porn industry caters to women--only it doesn't. That's why 90% of rape victims are male, only they are not, they are female. Pretending it is the same is exactly like pretending whites are as subject to racism as blacks. It's a willful and deliberate distortion of reality in order to protect privilege. It's also a highly reactionary point of view that originated in the fringe right of American politics. That you repeat it here now is revealing.

[hootinholler]

210. That's a long way to go

From we are human and wired to check each other out, to objectification is identical among the sexes. But how big is the romance novel market?

Is there no room for nuance?

Must we always paint with the broad brush?

So if I'm reading this right, you think I'm a misogynistic racist republican?

That's a wee stretch.

[demmiblue]

6. "Google University"

With that, I am trashing this thread... too much mra rots the brain.

[BainsBane]

10. How many is it now who've told us we're doing feminism wrong?

347?

[RC]

48. And how often have the rest of us been told we are doing it wrong?

Bullying, put-downs, purposeful misinterpretation of what someone said. That is no way to advance the cause in any meaningful way. And in fact is counter productive.
Treat other people with dignity, respect and don't piss off the people working for the same goals.

This might help.
Last night PBS had a 3 hour special on "MAKERS: WOMEN WHO MAKE AMERICA"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024214917

[xulamaude]

77. "Treat other people with dignity, respect"

Oh my. You just said that. And added a little threat to it too.

[seabeyond]

80. mmm hm. this is the unique in this poster. and always consistent. nt

[Squinch]

81. Can't make this stuff up. Someone's girlfriend said that once, I think.

[boston bean]

83. Don't piss off your allies!!! or or or ELSE! LOL

[xulamaude]

85. With allies like that...

[RC]

89. What threat?

There was no threat real or implied.
I notices you overlooked this part:
"Bullying, put-downs, purposeful misinterpretation of what someone said."

[xulamaude]

91. "don't piss off the people working for the same goals"

Or what? 'You' will stop treating women with dignity and respect?

(that threat)

[RC]

98. That is an observation. A piece of advice.

Because it turns off the people who otherwise may be agreeing with you, but have a different slant on things and therefore another way of working for that goal. Never mind that it is still the same goal, Equal Rights for everyone.
Just because someone is not in harmony with a clique, does not mean they are the enemy, or even wrong.
That is a hard lesson for some people to learn.

[xulamaude]

105. But, you know, RC

women having been hearing men tell them what's best for them (sometimes called 'advice') for so long that it's become somewhat of a joke.

If you want to work for equal rights for everyone, then knock yourself out. Does it have to be contingent upon some people not pissing 'you' off?

[RC]

109. As you are trying to do?

Do you even try to get along? Or do you prefer to amplify any real or perceived differences to provoke strife jn order to 'prove' we men are trying to put women down? People that do that are their own worse enemy.

[xulamaude]

111. I'm trying to piss you off??

Am I pissing you off?

I'm saying that you make it seem that without women making sure your feelings are not upset that you would not continue to do whatever it is that you do to ensure "equality for everyone".

[RC]

113. That is your perception.

Let's go back to my original post here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024215971#post48
"Bullying, put-downs, purposeful misinterpretation of what someone said."

[xulamaude]

115. Likewise, I'm sure. nt

[boston bean]

118. You aren't allowed to be pissed off missy! Only HE is! LOL

[Bobbie Jo]

107. .

Bookmarked.

Saving this piece of "advice" for later.

Couldn't agree more.

[bettyellen]

198. it is an order or command, more than an observation….. If you were advising, you would explain WHY

we are supposed to never piss you off. Not giving some weird vague warning you refuse to explain. That is NOT advising, that is a game. But yeah- you are afraid to go there.

What do you think will happen- what is it you are currently doing or saying as an ally, anyway- that we should be so concerned about this veiled threat that there would be consequences? I have never met anyone who was a true ally that would talk like this. Seriously. Calling your bluff here.

[On the Road]

182. Or what?

"don't piss off the people working for the same goals"

I think what he's implying is not about himself but about the feminist movement.

Today, 90% of the country would agree with the principle of equality for women, and yet somehow, a very large number of those same people can't stand most self-identified feminists and avoid the subject whenever possible.

Doesn't affect the OP much, but it does effect people working for feminist goals. Happens to every movement which loses its way and redoubles its effort.

[Marr]

180. You just proved his point.

Decrying that little piece of advice (something I once heard an organizer who worked with Harvey Milk say once, btw) as a "threat" makes you look ridiculous, and certainly qualifies as "purposeful misinterpretation", imho.

You seem more interested in making enemies than friends.

[xulamaude]

181. Nice... a Harvey Milk slam :)

I know, I'm just not nice enough.

[Marr]

183. That was sickeningly low.

These intentional misrepresentations-- saying distasteful things and presenting them as though you're just restating the other person's comment-- they make it impossible for me to take you seriously.

I'm not even going to alert on that as an insult. It's so thin and sad that it would be better left out to air.

[xulamaude]

184. Gee, thanks. nt

[BainsBane]

185. Bullying?

Is that what you call women daring to express a point of view? What on god's earth does your post have to do with the male gaze?

[Starry Messenger]

23. +1

[yardwork]

41. Touché!

[seabeyond]

51. i miss your voice. nt

[yardwork]

53. I'm around. I usually lurk but this thread is irresistible

[seabeyond]

56. ya. and good to know.

[yardwork]

59. Thanks, and same to you and yours, dear.

[Squinch]

46. .

[Gormy Cuss]

123. +1

[geek tragedy]

143. You win the thread. nt

[Ohio Joe]

9. There is no 'and'... It's just yet another public slap at feminists from the 'mens' group

I have no idea why this shit is allowed to continue.

[BainsBane]

11. Or, AKA

Think you have the right to be treated an equal human being? We'll show you.

[seabeyond]

42. thank you ohio joe. nt

[intaglio]

5. Unless you are talking about men looking at women judgmentally

Funny thing about words is that you can use them in all sorts of contexts and the ideas expressed by words do not apply exclusively to singular subjects.

Take your own screen name - Bonobo - in the context. It now means the pygmy or dwarf or gracile chimpanzee, Pan pansicus , it might come from a poor transliteration of "Bonolo" or perhaps it might be derived from the Bantu word for "ancestor". In the last few years it has come to include another meaning, sexually non-exclusive and perhaps in a state of innocence. From there it has been taken by certain fundamentalist groups to mean libertine or sinning. It might even be that on DU it would take on its own meaning separate from these.

So being judgmental about how people use words and phrases based on your understanding of them is usually a bad idea.

[BainsBane]

12. ....

You won the internet for 2013

[Squinch]

37. ....

(Well, I agree it was good. REALLY good... But I still think the cat in the shark costume on the Roomba chasing the duck wins.)

[ismnotwasm]

14. I like Bonobo's

I always kind of liked his user name.

The bonobo (/bəˈnoʊboʊ/ or /ˈbɒnəboʊ/), Pan paniscus, formerly called the pygmy chimpanzee and less often, the dwarf or gracile chimpanzee,[3] is a great ape and one of the two species making up the genus Pan; the other is Pan troglodytes, or the common chimpanzee. Although the name "chimpanzee" is sometimes used to refer to both species together, it is usually understood as referring to the common chimpanzee, while Pan paniscus is usually referred to as the bonobo.

It is distinguished by relatively long legs, pink lips, dark face and tail-tuft through adulthood, and parted long hair on its head. The bonobo is found in a 500,000 km2 (190,000 sq mi) area of the Congo Basin in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Central Africa. The species is omnivorous and inhabits primary and secondary forests, including seasonally inundated swamp forests.
The bonobo is popularly known for its high levels of sexual behavior. Sex functions in conflict appeasement, affection, social status, excitement, and stress reduction. It occurs in virtually all partner combinations and in a variety of positions. This is a factor in the lower levels of aggression seen in the bonobo when compared to the common chimpanzee and other apes. Bonobos are perceived to be matriarchal and a male's rank in the social hierarchy is often determined by his mother's rank.

Along with the common chimpanzee, the bonobo is the closest extant relative to humans. Because the two species are not proficient swimmers, the formation of the Congo River 1.5–2 million years ago possibly led to the speciation of the bonobo. Bonobos live south of the river, and thereby were separated from the ancestors of the common chimpanzee, which live north of the river. There is no concrete data on population numbers, but the estimate is between 29,500 and 50,000 individuals. The species is listed as Endangered on the IUCN Red List and is threatened by habitat destruction and human population growth and movement, though commercial poaching is the most prominent threat. They typically live 40 years in captivity,[4] though their lifespan in the wild is unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

[Bonobo]

15. You would NEVER believe why I picked that user name.

I mean that literally.

I do not think YOU would ever actually believe it.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Ok spill

I can believe 6 impossible things before breakfast.

[Bonobo]

17. Okay, ready?

Because I don't like behavioral restrictions based upon gender.

I LIKE the idea of women being able to lead societies and men being able to cook, or raise kids or stay at home.

I also like the idea that the warfare and conflicts that exists between people can be cured by some ritualistic rubbing.

I also like the idea that sex be considered a fun, happy thing to be shared without too much prudishness and control.

[ismnotwasm]

18. That doesn't surprise me

That's the way to societal health

Except for the ritualistic rubbing part

[Ghost Dog]

20. Very good. n/t

[CTyankee]

26. Then WHY don't you talk about that? Go back and look at your preoccupation and

ask yourself why you keep trying to punch feminism and feminists. There is a real disconnect between this post of yours and what you are always harping on here at DU.

Without more, I will assume that this OP is in response to a post on a short film out of India aimed at empowering women, something you claim to support. In fact the title of that post was the title of an article about that film. It is counterintuitive that someone who claims to be supportive of women leading societies spends all of his time bashing feminist principles and the protagonists of feminism on this board, both male and female. It's getting old, Bonobo. Knock it off.

[UtahLib]

30. +++1000

[seabeyond]

44. i believe bonobo claims feminism is dead, no reason for it, just women want to be pissed about

something.

[loli phabay]

54. sea as much as i adore you, i think there are some who are just looking to be pissed about stuff

there is definite jealousy and feelings of inadequacy from some, and thats on both sides. the common ground is littered with bodies from the porn wars for instance.

[seabeyond]

61. common ground is littered with bodies from the porn wars for instance.

this, i will absolutely agree on. but gotta tell you, how you interpret others... MANY others interpret me exactly as that. they could not be more wrong. further, it would be 180 (correct?) on the other side with healthy, grounded, easy life. well respected. well loved.

i do not know of a single person i can label in that manner

and

"as much as i adore you"

right back atcha. isnt it a hoot that there are men, smack in the middle of the battle... lol, ya, what we ALL create. and still. we can feel this way about each other.

i have a handful on my list.

THAT is the funnest in life.

[loli phabay]

67. its all a matter of being able to fight and argue but at the end of the day see the person at the ot

end of the argument, there are times when you make me want to jump in my woodchipper and probably vice versa but in the end as a species we like to argue, and we all believe we are right and everyone else is wrong. disclaimer: i am right 99% of the time when i argue (see what i mean, we all believe we are right).

[Bonobo]

63. No, not at all.

I DID post an article by a woman who claimed that the Patriarchy was dead.

Maybe you were thinking about that and got confused?

[seabeyond]

68. no. i was not confused. started with patriarch dead and feminists just looking for things to be

outraged. but then, seeing the total dishonesty of that meese thread that keeps getting kicked... totally in your face, blatantly dishonest, i do not expect anything from the group.

why has not ONE man called warren out on putting that up. a troll. a troll we immediately called out put that picture up. and you use the troll to attack us and our group

NOT one man has called out the blatant dishonesty. you a host. warren a host. flat out lying.

[Bonobo]

90. I just read your post on HOF about the dishonesty of it... if it is as you say.

Then there could be an issue.

I have not looked into it and I don't have time for the next few days.

If you can send me a DU mail or something telling me exactly the issue, I promise to give it some consideration.

Is that reasonable enough? I just really don't know the issues/allegations you are discussing.

And no, I never said feminism was dead.

I do think that linking to radical feminism is kind of offensive given that some of its most outspoken and well-known leaders are pretty damned close to being a hate group though.

You won't see me associating with asshole MRA groups.

[xulamaude]

97. "most outspoken and well-known leaders"

Who are these women?

If you are talking about Cathy Brennan, the only person who considers her a radical feminist leader is Cathy Brennan.

Really.

[yardwork]

45. I love you for so many reasons, CTyankee

This post is one of them.

[CTyankee]

122. Thank you. I have no patience with people who say one thing and do another...

[Bonobo]

65. It's really just a conflict of personalities.

I don't and never have responded well to bullying talk and nastiness. It gets my dandruff up.

I honestly believe that I respond in kind in these things and I am never in conflict with the principles behind them.

I will admit to snapping at people but the truth is that it is a two-sided thing. I am quite respectful and kind when treated with respect.

[loli phabay]

71. this, i to believe that sometimes we all talk past each other, and personalities do play a part

there are also unfortunately some real wackos out there though, its trying to decipher the nuts from the sincere that causes all the fights. and realistically we are not going to change anyones minds over this stuff as it always descends into a bar fight.

[bettyellen]

94. what is with the playing dumb about this- and schooling women.

it seems you are being deliberately vindictive and I have no idea why. are you really angry at women for being creeped out and speaking up about it? Seems so. That is not a respectful reaction. Quite the opposite.

Sad to see you think you have something valuable to say here, because anyone can cut and paste from Wiki, Bonobo. Thinking they are two separate- and unrelated- things just underlines the huge empathy gap you have around this subject.

[Bonobo]

101. My opinion on the subject of male gaze as it is used as an analysis of media, etc

Is that it has a lot of validity.

In addition, I agree that some men can ogle too much to the point of real rudeness and that this is a rotten thing to do. ANY behavior that makes others feel bad, uncomfortable or threatened is wrong.

Where I begin to get uncomfortable myself is the idea that looking at an attractive person or even at an attractive persons body is a thing to be ashamed of. I think there are, of course, degrees involved here.

As I said, I would draw the line at the other person's comfort. But you do realize that that implies that if the other person doesn't notice they are being 'checked out' then that would mean it is okay, right? And I suspect that some people DON'T think that is okay. Do you? If the other person doesn't know, is it ok? You may say that looking itself is creepy or you may say a quick look is okay, but a long look is bad, I don't know. But at some point, it gets to be offensive to tell people what they are allowed to look at. It is a free world.

[bettyellen]

119. It IS a free world, and you get to be as creepy as you want to. This would include staring for a

long time at someone who you imagine, doesn't realize that they are being stared at. Yeah, that is even more creepy, as it shows a willingness to exploit someone's disadvantage. That is a major red flag to anyone noticing you do it. So, bystanders may think you creepy intend of the "object" of your gaze. Happy now?

Your opinion seems to be that the male gaze in media has nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of women who experience a similar gaze every day of their lives. That has NO validity. I don't think you even believe it.

[Ohio Joe]

152. "ANY behavior that makes others feel bad, uncomfortable or threatened is wrong."

Except when the behavior is yours and it's publicly poking at those you feel threatened by... Then it's ok.

[bettyellen]

193. Joe, you missed the caveat where creepy behavior is okay, as long as the person has not noticed

they are being creeped on. Gosh, I have had lots of people creep on me closer and closer until they got too close/ too weird to ignore. Was that okay of them since I didn't react at first? Did I deserve getting breathed on or touched because I initially wanted to believe it was innocent at first? There is too disturbing to contemplate. I think I'm going to feel better about rushing to judgement about this shit, now that I know some guys here on DU feel this entitled if they think your mind is elsewhere. That is VERY creepy.

[yardwork]

43. This thread just keeps getting better!

[BainsBane]

8. As I said in the other thread

I think the authors chose that term because it was more polite that creepy pervs. But we can go with creepy pervs if you prefer. It really is more accurate.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Which can be extrapolated to "normalising the objectification of women"

since as originally employed the term refers to the implicit default perspective of a film camera as presenting a heterosexual male view of women (which is very much what the cinematic "male gaze" tends to do; think of all the films...quite mainstream, "classic" films...where the camera's focus is often on the breasts and backsides of female actors; the normalising of this cynical sexual assessment of women's bodies and of women as sexual objects can be used to describe, yes, the tendency of some (or many) men to leer inappropriately at women in public places. It's the same thing, and the responses of "well don't go out if you don't want to be looked at!" and "wear a burqa!" are a further assertion that the heterosexual male gaze should be presumed to be the lens through which women are viewed.

So...you're wrong if you're trying to say "but this other thread is about something else entirely!".

[bettyellen]

82. he is completely wrong, unable to add two plus two if he denies there is a connection

[The Straight Story]

22. Good lord, I can't look at women or open doors for them without guilt now?

There are a lot of reasons I could be shown to be a horrible human being (like being really pro-choice in a lot more topics than one, not bashing all owners of a device based on what very few who own it are like, etc) but it appears my worst sins in life have gone unnoticed by even myself.

To my lady friends - I promise not to look (unless by accident) for more than 1.2 seconds (you can time it!), never to open a door for you ...unless I have credentials with me to prove first I have opened it for others. You never know if I will ever see that woman again and the poor thing could spend her life wondering if I opened it because I was some sick man. Can we get one of those punch card thingees so I can fill it up as proof?

Hmmm Perhaps I can create some jobs and have some folks follow me around and film my life so I can be properly chastised when I have harmed others in such ways. We could call the show "Outrage! The invisible denial of the male species" (it doesn't have to make sense but should convey that we cannot see the truth of our inner demons, which we deny).

We can get rid of the fashion and make up industry...OH wait. Some folks will dress up for themselves only (ummm, how long do they look in the mirror at themselves? Wonder if I am mind raping myself when I shave and look too long at myself in the mirror? Good god, I hate even myself and didn't realize it!).

There, uh, might be a touch of sarcasm in some of that above. Now I have to run and remove my Matt Smith Dr. Who background, I stare at it a lot which probably means something....

[Katashi_itto]

24. +10000

I stopped taking the "feminist" crowd on DU seriously long ago. They are simply using Feminism as a cover and real world women's issues to push their own hangups and agendas.

[Squinch]

38. Imagine our despondency.

[Katashi_itto]

39. Yes I'm sure your broken up.

[loli phabay]

49. i think some are genuine, but some have real issues and use it as a cover

there are nutjobs and sickos on both sides of the argument.

[seabeyond]

52. sorry loli. i have had too many men state i am emotionally damaged, man hater, jaded, here recently

to have any tolerance what so ever of some many suggesting we have "issues". cant and wont go there. it is highly offensive to me as i have dedicated a couple decades taking care of a whole lot of men and boys in my life.

[loli phabay]

58. and i have seen it the other direction as well, claims that guys who dont think a certain way have i

issues or are damaged etc etc. i look at it as a perception thing, and everyone is guilty of seeing theirs as the norm and right and any deviancy from that as being indicative of issues. there seems to be a rush to label and forget about the uniqueness of each of us that gets lost in these threads. everyone looks like a monster from behind the keyboard whereas i am sure pretty much everyone would actually like each other in a real life situation even if we disagreed.

[seabeyond]

72. i pretty much agree here. maybe not everyone, lol. actually, i find very few people in rl i have a

problem with. innately, i pretty much tap on the good of people. we all have it.

[Katashi_itto]

87. Oh true, it's the rabid minority, the subset of the DU group I am talking abot

and it does apply to subsets of both sides

[seabeyond]

121. rabid minority. more insults. really, is this all you have?

[LeftyMom]

25. Please stop using the words "pro-choice" to mean "I respect corporations and not women"

If you want to center a political philosophy around crap you read on a bag at the gas station in 1992 and whatever websites Berman and Co farts out that's totally up to you, but it's stupid and you need to own that shit and use your own words and not ours because you're not fooling anyone.

[Whisp]

136. Will you marry me?

I think I love you.

[BainsBane]

27. If you can't tell the difference between looking and hostile harassment

at your age, it probably is for the best you not look at women. Few men experience the kind of confusion you describe. In fact, I have no doubt the men in the video know exactly what they are doing because that kind of behavior never succeeds in doing anything other than intimidating or pissing off women, which is fact the point.

As two other members said, if women don't like that kind of treatment we should stay at home or wear Burkas. That really is the point. It's about controlling public space so that women are not free to move at will. Any reasonable person can see that much. It's not admiration of women; it's a hostile demonstration of power. Men who like and admire women don't behave in ways the video shows. The Indian film organization made that film because it's a manifestation of a cultural of sexual predation that results in rape and murder of women. It is worrisome, to say the least, that anyone would see anything acceptable in that behavior.

I don't believe anyone really is confused about what is appropriate behavior toward women in public. I see the protestations of some here as a clear demonstration that they resent having to share public space with women as equal citizens. Ogling is not sexual attraction. It is an effort to claim public space for men only.

[CTyankee]

29. It's interesting. When I see men like those in that ad I always see "losers" in my brain.

Really attractive men just don't look like they do. I'm sure that they aren't self aware enough to get that, but when I compare those guys to the feminist men in my family, I see a vast gulf of attractiveness. Men who actually love and respect women are hugely attractive guys, people women want to be around and interact with and not just romantically, but socially and professionally as well. It's probably an evolution thing...

[BainsBane]

33. Clearly anyone who behaves like that isn't going to succeed in attracting a partner

So yes, your description is apt. That is my general response to all the protestations about misandry and the horrors of feminism. That's not something confident or successful men engage in.

[CTyankee]

35. No, it's not...and I think I know why...

[Logical]

28. No shit! nt

[Eleanors38]

31. About that 1.2 seconds: Trim it back; I'm down to .8. You can do it!

[The Straight Story]

40. I could really be in trouble if a Weeping Angel shows up.

The Weeping Angels were a species of quantum-locked humanoids, so called because their unique nature necessitated that they often covered their faces with their hands to prevent trapping each other in petrified form for eternity by looking at one another. This gave the Weeping Angels their distinct "weeping" appearance. They were known for being murderous psychopaths, eradicating their victims "mercifully" by dropping them into the past and letting them live out their full lives, just in a different time period.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Weeping_Angel

?w=540&h=432

[seabeyond]

55. what would be the point of this?

[The Straight Story]

57. Not to blink. Ever watch Dr Who?

There are some things folks should stare at. Like weeping angels.

Thus, staring is a natural defense mechanism. Seems simple enough to me.

[LanternWaste]

66. That's certainly one of may ways to rationalize it.

"There are some things folks should stare at.."

That's certainly one of may ways to rationalize it.

[xulamaude]

135. Do you feel the need to protect yourself from

women's body parts?

[MattBaggins]

157. Probably just likes to ogle and needs to rationalize it.

[zappaman]

172. That episode is fantastic!

And more interesting than anything in this thread!
Thanks for reminding me!

[loli phabay]

204. creepy as all get out though. scariest monsters ever.

[Eleanors38]

84. Dropping into the past. Doesn't sound half bad.

I do avert my eyes looking in a full length mirror; jeez, I'm out of shape.

[Squinch]

36. It is very sad that you are forced to live the life you describe.

But, confidentially? The culprit who is forcing you to live that life is not who you appear to think it is.

Also, a big on the drama factor!

[The Straight Story]

50. Hey, thanks. I learned the drama part from some fellow posters. Pretty accurate eh?

I may have been a tad under achieving in it all but a bit more reading and I might get there. It's pretty easy to get the hang of really. Everything has a bad side to it, you just have to know how to extract that and elucidate it to others in such a way as to be telling them they are guilty of things.

Like that thumbs up you used. It is demeaning (why is it not a different color? How do you think it makes others feel?). A lot of men have given thumbs up to porn, so are you saying you like it as well? Hitchhikers use that sign to 'get a ride' and it is not safe to pick them up - so we need warnings about those things after posting it (like a disclaimer or something).

Your avatar is a lot like the crescent moon symbol, which is oppressive as well. Google moon and stars symbol. Supports sexist religion. Maybe not to YOU but then, you just don't realize you are being that way. It's ok, we will help you overcome these issues. If you don't agree then you just want to be willfully blind and hide behind ignorance - now that you know what the symbol means to me and others it should all be clear. Need more wine.

[Squinch]

60. I think you are illustrating that you feel a little helpless

in the face of the information you receive with respect to feminism.

That's understandable. There is a lot that needs changing in our society. It can be overwhelming, especially when we are so used to the way things used to be.

[MattBaggins]

159. You nailed it

When certain men on this site see themselves in an OP they often revert to mockery as a self defense mechanism. Very interesting technique since if they chose to remain silent instead, no one would be the wiser.

I am not sure that they even realize their snark just screams "I am the type of person being described".

[yardwork]

47. I'm weeping for the oppression you endure.

You are such an inspiration. So much oppression at the hands if uppity women and yet you endure.

[Squinch]

73. Hey! Nice to see your name again!

[yardwork]

108. You too! Happy holidays!

[Squinch]

134. Back at ya!

[NuclearDem]

78. Oh drama.

Women try to explain why certain culturally accepted behaviors need to change and all of a sudden you're being forced to chop off your penis and mail it to Gloria Steinem.

It's exactly what all those feminazis are out to do. It's almost like the world doesn't revolve around you or something. Sadz.

[Nine]

92. LOL!

[bettyellen]

86. I do believe you are playing dumb about this. don't get why that dodge is such a big thing

in these threads. you really don't know the difference between glancing and ogling? If that is true, get help and yes- STOP IT. It's obnoxious and you are making others uncomfortable.

[geek tragedy]

99. Yes, you're the victim here.

P.S. Ogling and sneaking a peek are not the same thing.

[KansDem]

117. When I get on an elevator...

...and there's a woman on it, I don't look at her for fear of being called out as a "gawker." I avert my eyes so there's no "misunderstanding." And I refrain from complementing female co-workers about their hair, makeup, dress, etc., for the same reason.

As for another DU "hot topic"--opening doors for women--I do for both men and women. When we approach a door together, I open it and let them go first.

This hearkens back to my JuCo days when I started fresh out of high school. This was 1971 and there were a lot of vets returning from VietNam who were enrolling at the college. I was surprised when I approached a door and a vet would open it up and let me pass through first. If I did this in high school, you can imagine the homophobic responses. But not at the JuCo. I thought about it and surmised these guys had seen a lot more of life (and death) than I ever will, and perhaps, with that maturity, acknowledging one's presence with the simple task of opening a door for them as a sign of respect is tantamount to realizing we are all here together in this speck of space for just this instant.

So I started doing the same and have done so for the last 40 years...

[The Straight Story]

120. Ah, but you forget one thing

You may well hold open doors for everyone, but if you hold one open for a woman she may not know you have held it open for men as well, so it could freak her out (not to mention, you had to look at her to know she was coming towards the door - another sign you could be raping her in your mind already).

When you hold the door make sure to announce to her that you are doing so because you are being nice, that you didn't look at her, and have a handy sheet of references for men you have also held open the door for. I don't leave home without it now or my new glasses that make everyone a gray blob.

[xulamaude]

126. Oh, for heavens sake TSS.

Flogging the dead is entirely unbecoming and pretty damn creepy.

[Squinch]

149. Again, you poor dear. That horse is still dead, and it won't play at all when you beat it.

It's tragic, your life.

[The Straight Story]

160. it is, I try hard to be a complete victim everyday, but I don't have the skillset others do for it

But I am learning. I was at Kohl's one day and I got on the manager about having a men and women's section - there were no dresses in the men's section, which is sexist (so only women wear them? Patriarchy and misogyny in aisles 3-8). He could see I was visibly shaken (cause he looked at me while I was talking to him - he noticed a ketchup stain on my shirt. Hellloooo my mouth is speaking and it is up here) and that I might collapse any second so he took a report and thanked me for telling something he didn't know.

I have also caught myself looking at women in a different way than I do men. I am working on that. It is not natural to desire people of the opposite sex in any way other than for discussing projects at work. I have had it beaten into my head that I was straight - little did I know my evil parents were conditioning me to see women in a different way than I did the men. I also didn't realize that when I looked at a woman in a way (and a little longer than a man) that I thought admired her beauty I was mind banging her and mentally masturbating. Admiration is a bad thing to be sure.

I will work on feeling more guilt and shame so that others will feel better. It is the logical thing to do - and most certainly take the time each day to point out sexism; if I see a little girl playing with a doll I will take it, scold her, and hand her a tank - because she cannot possibly know any better. Poor dears, can't think for themselves - but we can save them all from making choices that aren't really choices! Oh crap...tanks mean war though, and war means men and guns and killing. Hah, maybe I could fetch her a block - but not one made of wood because the term 'wood' is sexual and comes from trees. I could swap it out with a puppy, but puppies should be free and not enslaved by 'owners'. Maybe just give her a copy of the 'traveling sisters of the perpetual outrage' to help her get on the right track.

[Squinch]

162. No, but seriously, it will all be OK. If you just don't let it scare you like this, you'll be fine

in the brave new world that feminism is creating.

[bettyellen]

195. you are sticking with "I am too stupid to know the difference between a glance and staring" story?

because if this is true- and you do need those glasses in order to not be a creeper- then get them.
Or give us all a break and practice staring at your shoes. That goes well with the clueless act.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

211. Must-read from beginning to end^^^^

Fun-ny.

[seabeyond]

124. opening doors is the strawman you and other men having been using for a year now. isnt it time to

let it go? it was stupid when you men grabbed onto it during the argument of benevolent sexism, a definition provided and examples given. it is still a stupid argument. more so because you all know it is bogus, and we know you know.

as far as you being a victim that you just do not know what to do with yourself around women, well, that seems to be your issue. i am around men all day long, and they really do not have that hard of a time walking thru life.

[Squinch]

145. But FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!1!!! The DOORS!!!!111!!!!

[seabeyond]

153. i had a funny door story the other day. reminded me of du and made me laugh that much harder and

longer than what would be a given.

walking to convenient store door. two men, cute as pie, lol, just leaving register to walk out door. i open door for them and stand back. they stop. in their tracks. deer in headlights. for fuckin real. i am getting a huge smile. they are flabbergasted. what to do. MEN hold the door for women. women do not hold door for men. this is ALL wrong. cannot. walk. thru. the. door. i am watching all this. smile getting fuckin huge. i am ready to do a dance in glee, at the fuckin cuteness. finally, the one in front swiftly moves thru. the other pauses, hesitates, walks thru shifting the stuff in his arms. now... it is fuckin freezing and all i really want is to slip thru to get out of the freezing wind. i slink around the dude to get in side. he has now shifted the shit in his arms, grabbed the door and the most bee u tee full smile on his face as i am walking into the store, cause he is holding the door for me.

i profusely thank him

lol.

i was laughing so hard by the time the door closed and the two male cashiers watching the whole thing. i am trying to explain the fuckin funny, and how totally precious these men were. i do not think they got it. but all the while i am thinking about du, and the stupid door argument the men brought up and how i wanted to share this story. so... appreciate it. here it is. my story. about doors.

[MattBaggins]

164. But but but

there are feminazis lurking behind every bush. The MRA types have to be always vigilant.

[Gormy Cuss]

130. Stop opening doors for women just because they're women.

Open doors for people who look like they need a hand -- someone who looks frailer than you, someone carrying a bulky package, someone who is pushing a stroller and has another kid or two in tow. Open doors for those who are a generation older than you as a sign of respect.

Don't open doors for women just because you're a man and they're not.

[Whisp]

189. lol. issues or what. n/t

[Dash87]

209. Yes, that's correct. You should forcefully slam the door in the face of the person behind you.

I personally love getting knocked out by a speeding door.

Staring into a mirror isn't good, though. The Candy Man lives in there.

[hrmjustin]

70. All I can say about the gaze is I feel uncomfortable for people when someone is staring at them.

See it on the subway all the time. When I am out with my nieces I see men and boys look st them and it pisses me off. I havetold people to stop staring atmy niece.

[Squinch]

75. I once was with two friends. A guy did that thing, and we decided to turn

the tables. We stared at his crotch and nudged each other a lot and whispered behind our hands, and laughed.

He moved to the next car.

[seabeyond]

79. they have a lifetime. they will internalize. it will effect who they are as people. people,

not things. and with this lifetime internalization and changing who these nieces are, men dismiss it.

thank you hrm

[geek tragedy]

100. Yeah, staring at someone's face is considered rude, but staring at their chest or butt

is considered just being a guy? Not buying that.

[yardwork]

106. You are a kind and strong human being.

[bettyellen]

88. You know damn well this "gaze" carries over into women's' real life experiences, so why pretend

otherwise? Why the complete lack of empathy, and nit picking?

Really sad to see you quickly Google something in order to be that guy- who is ever present on the net- telling women how they are wrong about feminism. Does it upset you that much that you don't get to stare as much as you want without judgement? I can't think of another way that this could actually impact you.
How does it feel to be a sad - and all too common- internet cliche?

[yardwork]

93. More win in this thread.

[bettyellen]

95. so GREAT to see you again, Yardie!!

Sad fucking OP, is it not? Someone thinks hey found a technicality that will get women to STFU about something they do not like to think about. Gosh, I only see this childish crap 20X a day.

[yardwork]

103. Great to see you too!

This thread is too easy to hit home runs off.

[seabeyond]

125. kinda like a discussion on benevolent sexism is about opening doors. go to the stupid to ignore an

issue

[Squinch]

150. But with The Stupid, you can put on your hair shirt, and flog yourself. Some people like that.

[seabeyond]

154. sigh... ya, well. i have to finish up christmas shopping today. outta time. cant procrastinate.

so the floggin of the hair shirt will have to wait

[Aerows]

102. I'm a lesbian

I've probably had "the gaze", too. I've been pretty attractive over the years, though, so it has been tossed at me by men and I didn't want it. I've seen both sides of the issue, and what I get out of it is that there is a conversation to be had here, but the whole "male gaze" bit seems like accusations.

Men are going to act like dogs and look, no matter how well dressed a woman is. That is a fact that men need to address amongst themselves. If you dress like a hooker, men are going to look at you. That is a fact that we womenfolk need to address amongst ourselves.

When you are modestly, fashionably dressed, men are going to look at you. That does not mean you need to be afraid they will rape you. And men, you scare the shit out of women when you look like that. If you are thinking of sex with a woman you don't even know, you are giving her "the gaze". She isn't interested in you until she tells you that she is. Women don't want to be claimed by you and your body part. Be nice.

Being nice is the way to a person's heart. You'd want someone to be nice to you, wouldn't you?

[yardwork]

104. I'm a lesbian too, and I think you are giving the OP too much credit.

Nuance, subtlety, complexity....the OP could have approached this issue in those ways if he had chosen to do so. Instead he used a hammer and got the inevitable result.

[boston bean]

110. I think you are right, and we all know why he posted it... here are his thoughts in his own words..

no matter what he is saying now...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=12196

Star Member opiate69 (8,497 posts)

9. I'm coming to the realization...

That some folk blather on as if they've taken a course or two in "2nd wave feminist studies", and read a little bit of Marx, but didn't really understand either, yet decided to mash 'em together into a world-view heavy on malaprops and word salads worthy of Caribou Barbie herself.

"You can see the sea.. it's over there, between the land and the sky!"

Reply to this post

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 23, 2013, 02:09 AM

Bonobo (22,498 posts)

10. The "Male Gaze" mistake...

is totally hilarious.

They couldn't even pass a class in Feminism 101 if they make such a stupid mistake.

BTW, Hi Yadwork! Good to see you! Hope all is well with you and yours.

[Squinch]

138. Oh, please! This is the thread that keeps on giving!

"The 'Male Gaze' mistake...They couldn't even pass a class in Feminism 101 if they make such a stupid mistake."



I don't even know where to begin to laugh at that statement!

[xulamaude]

147. Funny, what Bonobo says is the ACTUAL(!) meaning of

the 'male gaze' in this OP is not what I learned in "Feminism 101" back in 1985.

Oh, and I passed just fine. With an A, iirc.

[MattBaggins]

166. Funny that coming from he OP

given how he pontificates on biology theories as if he actually knows something about them.

[bettyellen]

196. It blows my mind the complete closed mindedness it takes to think the gaze and the gaze are in

no way intertwined. What complete and thoughtless ignorance and arrogance that had to take.

And all that glee, all over thinking they found a woman making a mistake. Big DERP right there. This OP is getting bookmarked, LOL.

[davidn3600]

112. The issue here is basic biology, which some refuse to acknowledge

Males are programmed to scan a field and find the most healthy female he can find. Why? Because that provides the best chance for a successful pregnancy. This is biological instinctive behavior and not a result of the patriarchy.

And women do stare at men too. Don't pretend women are 100% innocent here. I've overheard women talk after a "hunk" walks by.

[xulamaude]

114. Yay! Evo-psych has entered the building...

And I like pink because men are taller and can reach the more ripe fruit and give it to me in exchange for me regenerating your genetics.

Or something.

[seabeyond]

129. ah. i thought we were suppose to like pink cause of our lady parts, lol. shopping? why am i

biologically good at shopping? the gathering. my female gene must have been the hunter. which i could say is also a reason for needing to shop. going out hunting for the prize. meh

[davidn3600]

163. Liking pink and liking shopping are social instructions, not biological

Girls are not born to like the color pink. Boys are not born to like the color blue. Associations like that are taught to us early in infancy and our brain makes the connection. Notice when you walk down toy store aisles, it's easy to see if you are in a boys section or the girls section based on nothing else but the color of the packaging.

But there are behaviors and traits that are pre-programmed by nature, before we are even born. Men and women are not neurologically-wired exactly the same. That's not breaking news. We've known that for quite some time. That's why the genders can interpret somethings in completely different ways. Im not going to get into the science here because that information is so vast it can fill textbooks. But science is just beginning to understand how the genders are wired differently.

That's the reason it's not a good idea to have only men or only women on juries. That's why it's not a good idea for a country to not have women in their government or other places in society. Just think if women were part of the writing of the Constitution. Would it look different? Certainly. Perhaps very different.

It's also why it's a bad idea for feminists not to have men at the table if the goal is truly an equal society. You are only viewing things from one side...the same mistake the patriarchy made.

[seabeyond]

167. first you will have lots of evo dudes tell you pink is dna. second, when evo makes up stories to fit

agenda to replace religion for control of dominance and control over women, without factual data, but story telling and assumptions, that contradict itself, it is a PROBLEM.

and that is what you presented as a fact. a storytelling for agenda to control and dominate. just as it contradicts the spreading of the seed to anything available. they contradict themselves. being selective is dna. being non selective is dna. really gives you men free access to behave however you want.

and when a woman points this out. i hear men yell out... why do you reject science.

no. this is NOT science. bring in actual science that is not agenda based to replace science with religion, and i may listen.

[boston bean]

168. We're just trying to take a seat at the table. If that offends, well then... it offends you.

[xulamaude]

175. Well, at least you're not a patriarchy denier. nt

[CTyankee]

131. and men don't clean because that scan keeps them from seeing the dirt...

no kidding, I've heard that one.

I guess one day it will dawn on them that such arguments only make them look silly...by that time, women have moved on to the more evolved ones...

[randr]

116. Women are far more subtle in their physical assessments of the opposit sex

I have had sexually free girl friends who have been very honest with me of their appraisals of other men.
The words "what a package" were bandied most often.

[seabeyond]

127. or from the beginning of their life they are given women to gawk at, presented to them, on a

continual basis all their life and are conditioned to feel entitled to treat women in this manner.

i mean. wtf? nature or nurture. lets totally ignore the fact that girls from the beginning are raised to feel their looks are their value, and is to present it to a man. and the boys are taught that girls looks are their value and they are to present it to man.

[seabeyond]

128. and i thought it was in the dna to spread the seed, implant anywhere and everywhere. not sounding

selective. and certainly sounding contradictive. you know. it almost sounds as if men create different scenarios to validate different unsociable behavior today adn slap on a "science" label for validation.

[CTyankee]

139. A couple of years ago my husband and I were hosting a tailgate party at the Yale Bowl.

Our friend, Jim, got soused and suddenly started proclaiming loudly "I HAVE A DICK!" for no apparent reason to us, but I'm sure he had some reason (and BTW this was a guy with a Ph.D in econ). I'm usually pretty gracious but this time I had had it. I said "when you start talking about your dick, it's time to go." His wife hauled him away fairly quickly.

[seabeyond]

140. they luvs them their dick, lol. for sure. nt

[NuclearDem]

142. Wow, learn a new math equation every day.

(Naturalistic fallacy + evo-psych) * false equivalency = steaming load of crap.

And yes, creepy staring and ogling is a result of the damn patriarchy. What a bunch of crap, david.

[Squinch]

144. So which is it? You are taking both sides of the same argument.

[Dash87]

146. This is unintentionally funny because it's written like a description of a cyborg.

"Scanning field X120W for potential target. Target found. Assimilate! Assimilate!"

[Squinch]

156. Alert! Alert! Target is running away like a bat out of hell!

Target escaped!

Pool data with other cyborgs to analyze failure of operation!

Data points to DOORS!

[boston bean]

158. stop it, i'm about lying on the floor having fits of laughter!

[NuclearDem]

170. SYSTEM RESET. DIAGNOSTICS COMPLETE.

1 INFECTED ITEM(S) FOUND: SHERRYL_TURNED_ME_DOWN_FOR_PROM

RESET MODE: NICE GUY

SET NEW BEHAVIOR:
IF (internet_feminist_post) THEN (mra_reddit)
IF (woman_attraction_level) > 7 THEN (ogle_harrass)
IF (woman_attraction_level) < 7 THEN (fat_shame)
IF (boyfriend_true) THEN (set_woman_whore)
IF (boyfriend_false) THEN (set_woman_bitch)
IF (forever_alone) THEN (set_behavior_blame_feminist)


SYSTEM RESET COMPLETE

[Squinch]

171. We should do this EVERY DAY!

[NuclearDem]

173. FOREVER.

[xulamaude]

178. LOL!

[yardwork]

199. Dying laughing here. This is the best thread I've read on DU in months. What a Christmas present!

[rrneck]

137. I stopped eating at Taco Bell years ago because of the advertising.

They had a commercial that featured a "hot babe" with a music riff and every time I heard that riff I would look up to see the woman in the ad. It was fucking Pavlovian. Every time I looked up I thought, "Goddamnit, they got me again." So I stopped eating there.

The concept of the "male gaze" depends on a literalist interpretation of the viewers response. It assumes that someone viewing an image will respond within a narrowly proscribed set of parameters. Those parameters of course usually conform to the ideological objectives of whoever is making the evaluation. So, for example, some people think a child will become a Satanist if they read Harry Potter.

All images, no matter how carefully rendered, are abstractions. They are fiction, and fiction is always open to interpretation. That's why fiction exists, to be interpreted by each person according to their own experiences and point of view. Since each viewer is an individual, the relationship of the fictional work to the individual viewing it is impossible to control with anything but the most generalized precision. Images can impel us to do many things, but they will never compel us to do anything.

[Squinch]

141. Not only is this the thread that keeps on giving, but it is also a perfect "MRA BINGO" thread:

How many MRA arguments can you find in this thread? I got 9 so far!

[grahamhgreen]

148. Are you creep shaming men here?

[Squinch]

151. Bahahahaha!!!

[geek tragedy]

155. This would be genius if it were snark., nt

[Squinch]

165. If it isn't snark, it's even funnier!

[boston bean]

169. true dat! I don't think it was snark though...

[MineralMan]

161. Say, thanks for 'splaining that for us.

Yes, sir.

[Vashta Nerada]

176. There's like, 5 threads on this subject.

Why?

[tammywammy]

186. Latest outrage du jour for GD.

Trash by keyword is the best.

[Vashta Nerada]

188. I trashed all of them.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

187. Although I disagree with the notion that DU men are picking fights with DU women

especially self-identified feminists, I take issue with your post and its conclusions. It should be obvious that men like to ogle women, and in the past a lot more lewd behavior around "checking out a lady" was accepted and tolerated and today it is not.

So I wish you would reconsider this post. It is highly inaccurate. And using the term Feminism 101 from a guy is pretty inflammatory.

[bettyellen]

194. yep "Feminism 101" and schooling others with with a snippet from Wiki illustrates entitlement

more than it does anything else. The hubris is incredible to witness.

"Look ladies, I know I am pulling this fresh out of my ass, but it shows I understand the male gaze better than you do!". It is laughably bad judgment, and on it's face, dishonest.

The OP knows there is connection between the portrayals in the media and how it spills over into real life. They just want to pick any nits they can find- lie a chimp would. Not like an ally would. I wish posters like this would just stop pretending they are allies, instead of resentful little flies in the ointment.

[geek tragedy]

197. More like Mansplaining 101 nt

[lakemuna]

202. GREAT KEEP IT UP

GREAT KEEP UP THIS IS VERY HELPFUL INFORMATION .

[A-Schwarzenegger]

212. YES

VERY INFORMATION

[countryjake]

213. For the purposes of education...

here are your jury results:

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Mon Dec 23, 2013, 12:09 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Feminism 101: What is ACTUALLY meant by the "MALE GAZE"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024215971

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

A mens group member stirring shit with feminists in GD. We don't need shit like this.


You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 23, 2013, 12:22 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Considering that today we've had a rousing discussion on this topic, an already existing thread which has received more than 4000 views and almost 200 replies, I can only surmise that this new thread was created for the exact reason stated by the alerter. He was disappointed with the results of the original thread, so chooses to begin the discussion anew, only on his terms. He must be a very young man, as the theory of "male gaze" has been explored now for decades, and I believe that most women do understand its ramifications in our society, the objectification of women to bolster patriarchal power.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I don't see how explaining the correct use of a term is stirring the pot. Sorry.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Oh, for Pete's sake, toughen up. There's nothing wrong with this post at all. (And I'm a woman, by the way.)
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I sympathize with the alerter but find the article interesting, though a bit anglo-centric (I believe the phrase comes from a French feminist, tho I can't remember which atm) so in the interest of keeping DU interesting in cold season . . . I vote leave it.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.