So they're planning a system of toll plazas on our nation's highways.

[woo me with science]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101474300

An utterly clumsy, expensive, and outmoded way of collecting money to fund roads. Why?

Honestly, what are the odds that these checkpoints do NOT become part of Homeland Security's monitoring of our movements. Especially in light of everything else they are doing.

I don't like this. And someone is going to make a boatload of money on it.

[hlthe2b]

1. May be like the ones in Denver--where you don't stop (and you may well NOT know you've incurred $$)

Until you get a bill in the mail. No, this is not a registration pay system. They trace your license plate address and send you a bill. Presumably if you don't pay you get sent to collections.

I had friends who lent their car when they were on vacation to a close family friend--only to come back to a bill of over $100 for toll charges. The "friend" saw the toll signs but since they never stopped at a booth (nor saw a booth), they had assumed it wasn't up and running yet. They had no idea they were incurring fees--nor how much. My friends are stuck paying, but unfortunately have already incurred late fees since they had no reason to think the first two bills were anything but an error.

So, guess what folks. Computer age very likely now allows this to occur on a national level. And if you don't pay, it may well prevent you from renewing your license or tags, in time, just as unpaid traffic tickets do now.

[woo me with science]

23. So we restrict the movements of poor people.

Last edited Wed Mar 14, 2012, 12:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Lovely.

[uncle ray]

61. goddamn those toll operators.

with their forcing people to loan out cars to douchey friends and ignore bills received that clearly relate to the loaning out of said car.

true, the signs on Denvers E470 tollroad are not clear on HOW you will be charged, but they are very clear that you are using a toll road and are incurring charges.

[hlthe2b]

66. Actuallyfor someone not from the area... they are not...

Why you feel the need to offer such a retort ("douchey friends&quot escapes me. But given your comment, I have NO doubt whatsoever that you would never be put at such risk from doing a kind favor for someone else.

[think]

2. The TSA. Coming soon to a toll booth near you. Already in Tennessee:

TSA Checkpoints Now On TN Highways

The Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security on Tuesday partnered with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and several other federal and state agencies for a safety enforcement and awareness operation on Tennessee’s interstates and two metropolitan-area bus stations. They are randomly inspecting vehicles on highways in Tennessee.

The random inspections really aren’t any more thorough normal, according to Tennessee Highway Patrol Colonel Tracy Trott who says paying attention to details can make a difference.

“People generally associate the TSA with airport security…but now we have moved on to other forms of transportation, such as highways, buses and railways,” said Kevin McCarthy, TSA federal security director for West Tennessee....

Full article and video:
http://tennesseenewspress.com/2011/10/19/tsa-checkpoints-now-on-tn-highways/

[woo me with science]

6. +1 Exactly. And/or facial recognition technology.

This would certainly be a good place for Homeland Security to put facial recognition systems, as Selatius noted in the other thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=74677

And the EZ-Pass people have filed a patent for a new type of system that will put a camera INSIDE your car, ostensibly to verify that you have the right number of drivers in there: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=420039

The potential Homeland Security uses for these checkpoints are endless, and it is disturbing as hell.

But you know what hits me at the most primal level about all of this? They are taking away my open road. There is nothing like taking your car out on the highway, and just driving... Even if these were just toll booths, a turnpike is not the same.

[Fawke Em]

15. Lovely.

I live in Tennessee.

Haven't come across this crap, yet, but I'm on the Eastern side of the state. These look to be on the Western side.

[sabrina 1]

115. As if we didn't know this would happen. But I remember being told we were 'paranoid' by

those who will support any step further towards totalitarianism their government takes.

I'm sure they will find a way to justify this also.

[ProSense]

3. It's a

transportation bill. There are tolls up and down the highways already. Everything isn't a friggin conspiracy.

Democrats have been trying to pass this bill.

http://www.transportationissuesdaily.com/senator-boxer-1000-groups-urging-us-to-pass-transportation-bill-now/

[Zalatix]

9. An expansion of toll roads? I'd call that a conspiracy.

One that's easily explained, too. Follow the money.

[ProSense]

11. Call it

"An expansion of toll roads? I'd call that a conspiracy."

whatever you want to. Trying to characterize the transportation bill as a "conspiracy" is beyond absurd.

[Zalatix]

21. Trying to characterize it as NOT a corporate conspiracy is beyond clueless.

Follow the money. Who profits off of this?

[ProSense]

24. It's absolutely

"Trying to characterize it as NOT a corporate conspiracy is beyond clueless. Follow the money. Who profits off of this?"

...clear you have no idea what's in this bill. Believing this is a conspiracy is what's "beyond clueless."

11/7/2011--Introduced.


Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century or the MAP-21 - Authorizes appropriations out of the Highway Trust Fund (HTF) (other than the Mass Transit Account) equal to current federal highway spending levels plus inflation for FY2012 and FY2013 for: (1) certain new and existing core federal-aid highway programs, and (2) Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) administrative expenses.

Prescribes ceiling obligations for federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, with specified exceptions.

Revises the National Highway System (NHS) program.

Permits conventional combination vehicles to operate on all NHS segments, except those as of enactment of MAP-21: (1) that were open to traffic, and (2) on which all nonpassenger commercial motor vehicles are banned.

Amends the Surface Transportation Assistance Act of 1982 to repeal the National Network (a national truck route, including the Interstate System (IS) and certain parts of the federal-aid primary system.)

Directs the Secretary of Transportation (DOT) to distribute federal-aid highway funds apportioned to states for each fiscal year: (1) among the national highway performance (new core program), the transportation mobility (new core program), the highway safety improvement, the national freight (new core program), and the congestion mitigation and air quality improvement (CMAQ) programs; as well as (2) to metropolitan transportation planning.

Directs the Secretary to establish and implement a national highway performance program. (Effectively consolidates the interstate maintenance, NHS, and part of the highway bridge programs.)

Requires states to develop risk-based asset management plans.

Requires a state to obligate a specified amount of the apportionment of national highway performance program funds for the restoration of certain IS pavement and NHS bridges.

Revises the emergency relief fund program.

Reauthorizes appropriations for the emergency relief fund for the repair or reconstruction of highways, roads, and trails damaged as a result of a disaster.

Authorizes the Secretary to obligate fund amounts for the repair or reconstruction of disaster-affected tribal transportation facilities, federal lands transportation facilities, and other federally-owned roads that are open to public travel, whether or not they are federal-aid highways.

Directs the Secretary to establish and implement a transportation mobility program (TMP). (Effectively replaces the surface transportation program.)

Authorizes a state to obligate the apportionment of TMP funds for projects to improve conditions and performance on federal-aid highways and bridges and tunnels on public roads.

Makes certain TMP allocations to areas of a state based on population.

Requires a state to obligate a specified amount of the apportionment of TMP funds for the improvement of certain deficient off-system bridges.

Directs the Secretary to deduct for each fiscal year at least $10 million from FHWA administrative expenses for highway use tax evasion projects.

Revises the highway bridge program.

Directs the Secretary to: (1) inventory all highway bridges and tunnels, (2) establish national inspection standards for evaluating all highway bridges and tunnels for safety and serviceability, and (3) establish a training program for highway bridge and tunnel inspectors.

Authorizes a state to use TMP funds to replace certain bridges and ferries that have been destroyed.

Revises the highway safety improvement program.

Directs the Secretary to establish requirements for regularly recurring updates and approval of state strategic highway safety plans.

Requires the Secretary to issue guidance to states on establishing performance measures and targets for state highway safety improvement programs to reduce serious injuries and fatalities on highways.

Revises the CMAQ program.

Requires states and metropolitan planning organizations (MPOs) to give priority to projects that are proven to reduce PM2.5, including diesel retrofits, in areas designated as nonattainment or maintenance for PM2.5. Requires, also, that 50% of such funds be suballocated for projects to reduce emissions within areas designated as nonattainment or maintenance for ozone, carbon monoxide, or PM2.5, including diesel retrofits.

Requires each tier I MPO representing a nonattainment or maintenance area (population of more than 50,000 individuals) to develop a performance plan that describes projects that will achieve certain emission and traffic congestion reduction targets.

Authorizes a state to reserve a specified amount of CMAQ program funds for: (1) the transportation enhancements, recreational trails, and safe routes to school programs, and (2) certain road improvement projects.

Revises and replaces the Puerto Rico highway program with the Territorial and Puerto Rico highway program. (Effectively consolidates the programs.)

Makes certain allocations for the Puerto Rico highway and territorial highway programs for resurfacing and reconstruction, highway safety improvement, transportation mobility program, preventive maintenance, and ferry boats and terminal facilities projects.

Directs the Secretary to: (1) establish a national freight program to improve movement of freight on highways, including freight intermodal connectors and aerotropolis transportation systems; and (2) develop, periodically update, and post on the DOT website a national freight strategic plan.

Authorizes a state to obligate its apportionment of national freight program funds for projects to improve the movement of freight on the national freight network.

Directs the Secretary to designate a primary freight network consisting of 27,000 centerline miles of existing roadways most critical to the movement of freight.

Requires states to develop state performance targets for freight movement on the primary freight network.

Makes authorizations for the tribal transportation, federal lands transportation, and federal lands access programs for various transportation planning and highway improvement projects.

Amends the Alaska highway program.

Authorizes the Secretary, upon agreement with the state of Alaska, to expend federal-aid highway funds apportioned to the state for necessary reconstruction on: (1) a specified segment of the Alaska Highway, or (2) the Alaska Marine Highway System.

Directs the Secretary to establish a grant program for projects of national and regional significance.

Revises metropolitan transportation planning and statewide transportation planning requirements.

Requires designation of an MPO for each urbanized area with a population of more than 200,000 individuals and for small urbanized areas with populations between 50,000 and 200,000 individuals. (Currently, an MPO must be designated for each urbanized area with a population of more than 50,000 individuals.)

Prescribes a tier I and tier II MPO designation system based on population.

Requires MPOs, in developing metropolitan transportation plans and transportation improvement programs (TIPs) for metropolitan planning areas, to use a process that establishes certain performance measures and targets for the metropolitan transportation planning of federal-aid highway projects.

Requires each state, in developing a statewide transportation plan and a statewide transportation improvement program (STIP), to use similar performance measures and targets for the statewide transportation planning of federal-aid highway projects.

Requires each state to incorporate the metropolitan transportation plans and TIPs for each metropolitan area into the statewide transportation plan and STIP.

Declares that it is in the interest of the United States to focus the federal-aid highway program on certain national goals, including to: (1) significantly reduce traffic fatalities and serious injuries on all public roads, (2) maintain the highway infrastructure system in a state of good repair, (3) improve the efficiency of the surface transportation system, (4) improve the national freight network and support regional economic development, and (5) enhance the performance of the transportation system while protecting the natural environment.

Directs the Secretary to carry out a project delivery acceleration initiative to identify, develop, and advance the use of best practices and deployment of technology and innovation to accelerate project delivery and to reduce project costs for transportation projects and programs while enhancing safety and protecting the environment.

Authorizes a public authority to acquire real property that may be used for an approved surface transportation project before the completion of the environmental review process under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA) for such project.

Authorizes a contracting agency (state transportation department) to award, on a competitive basis, a two-phase contract to a construction manager or general contractor for pre-construction and construction services on federal-aid highway projects.

Declares that it is in the national interest to promote the use of innovative technologies and practices that increase the efficiency of construction of, improve the safety of, and extend the service life of highways and bridges.

Amends NEPA to authorize a lead authority (DOT) operating administration or secretarial office to apply a categorical exclusion (that does not involve significant environmental impact) for other components of a multimodal transportation project if specified conditions are met.

(A "categorical exclusion" is a category of actions which do not individually or cumulatively have a significant effect on the human environment and which have been found to have no such effect in procedures adopted by a federal agency in implementation of environmental regulations and for which, therefore, neither an environmental assessment nor an environmental impact statement is required.)

Revises and makes permanent the surface transportation project delivery pilot program.

Directs the Secretary to publish notice of proposed rulemaking for categorical exclusions for federal-aid highway projects that are located solely within the right-of-way of an existing highway and are intended to improve safety, alleviate congestion, or improve pavement conditions.

Prescribes procedures for accelerating the project delivery decisionmaking process with respect to: (1) environmental review of projects, (2) coordination among relevant agencies in meeting project deadlines, and (3) issue resolution and referral.

Directs the Secretary to establish an initiative to review and develop consistent procedures for environmental permitting and procurement requirements for DOT formula grant programs.

Authorizes the Secretary to establish an alternative relocation payment demonstration program for the payment of relocation assistance to persons displaced by federally-assisted programs and projects.

Directs the Secretary to compare the completion times of categorical exclusions, environmental assessments, and environmental impact statements for federal-aid highway projects over specified time periods.

Makes eligible to be a federal-aid highway project the construction of long-term parking facilities for commercial motor vehicles on the NHS (Jason's Law).

Revises open container requirements.

Requires the Secretary to withhold 2.5% of a state's apportionment of certain federal-aid highway funds if it has not enacted or is not enforcing a law that prohibits the possession of any open alcoholic beverage container, or the consumption of such beverage, in the passenger area of any motor vehicle on a public highway. Prescribes requirements for release of the withheld funds.

Amends the federal-aid highway program to modify the minimum penalties states are required to impose on motorists convicted multiple times for driving while intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol.

Requires repeat offenders to have: (1) all their driving privileges suspended (currently, only a driver's license suspension) for at least one year; or (2) their unlimited driving privileges suspended for one year, with limited driving privileges permitted, subject to restrictions and limited exemptions, if an ignition interlock device is installed for at least one year on each of the motor vehicles they own or operate. Eliminates the specified current alternative.

Requires the Secretary to withhold certain apportionment funds if a state has not enacted or is not enforcing a repeat intoxicated driver law. Prescribes requirements for release of the withheld funds.

Revises and decreases certain penalties.

Prohibits the use of convict labor in the construction of federal-aid highways unless the convicts are on parole, supervised release, or probation.

Authorizes the federal share of project costs for maintaining minimum levels of retroreflectivity of highway signs or pavement markings at 100%.

Makes eligible to be a federal-aid highway project the addition of electric charging stations to new or previously federally-funded fringe and corridor parking facilities.

Requires states to obligate federal-aid highway funds to install diesel emission control technology on off-road or on-road diesel equipment, with an engine that does not meet EPA particulate matter emission standards, that operates for at least 80 hours over the life of a federal-aid highway project within a PM2.5 nonattainment or maintenance area.

Amends the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970 to provide increases in payments made by a displacing agency for: (1) relocation expenses for displaced farms, nonprofit organizations, or small businesses; and (2) replacement housing for displaced homeowners and certain other tenants.

Makes $10 million available for each fiscal year for specified federal-aid highway programs (effectively consolidating such programs.)

Repeals specified federal-aid highway programs.

Rescinds $2.391 billion of unobligated balances of certain federal-aid highway programs for FY2012.

Rescinds $3.054 billion of unobligated balances of federal-aid highway program funds apportioned to each state for FY2013.

Authorizes appropriations for FY2012 and FY2013 for specified transportation research and education programs.

Replaces the Surface Transportation Research Program with the Surface Transportation Research, Development, and Technology Program.

Replaces the National Technology Deployment Program with the Research and Technology Development and Deployment Program.

Directs the Secretary to carry out: (1) a highway research and development program, and (2) a technology and innovation deployment program.

Authorizes the Secretary to make grants to: (1) nonprofit institutions of higher education to establish workforce development centers, and (2) establish centers for surface transportation excellence.

Repeals the International Highway Transportation Outreach Program and the Surface Transportation Environmental Cooperative Research Program.

Revises the national university transportation centers grant program.

Directs the Secretary to make competitive grants to eligible nonprofit institutions of higher education to establish tier I and tier II university transportation centers to advance transportation expertise and technology through education, research, and technology transfer activities.

Establishes in the Research and Innovative Technology Administration (RITA) the Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS). (Actually, BTS was created in 1992 under the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act [ISTEA] and later transferred to become part of RITA on February 20, 2005.)

Subjects to a specified fine an owner or person in charge of a freight company that neglects, or refuses when requested by the BTS Director, to answer completely all questions relating to the company or to make available company records or statistics.

Revises the intelligent transportation system (ITS) program.

Authorizes the Secretary to develop and implement incentives to accelerate deployment of ITS technologies and services within all MAP-21 funding programs.

Directs the Secretary to establish a competitive grant program to accelerate the deployment, operation, systems management, intermodal integration, and interoperability of the ITS program and ITS-enabled operational strategies.

Specifies certain goals of the ITS program.

Requires the Secretary to carry out a comprehensive program of ITS research and development, and operational tests of intelligent vehicles, intelligent infrastructure systems, and other similar activities.

Directs the Secretary to develop a national ITS architecture and supporting ITS standards to promote the use of systems engineering methods in the deployment of intelligent transportation systems and technologies as a component of U.S. surface transportation systems.

America Fast Forward Financing Innovation Act of 2011 - Amends the the Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA) to revise DOT's TIFIA program of direct loans, loan guarantees, and credit for surface transportation projects.

Revises TIFIA program eligibility requirements to make a project eligible to receive credit assistance if the entity proposing a project submits a letter of interest before submission of a project application and the project meets certain creditworthiness criteria.

Requires the Secretary to establish a rolling application process in which eligible projects shall receive credit on terms acceptable to the Secretary, if adequate funds are available to cover the subsidy costs of the federal credit instrument.

Authorizes a project sponsor in cases where there is not adequate funding available to fund a credit instrument to elect to enter into a master credit agreement and wait until the following fiscal year to receive credit assistance.

Increases from 33% to 49% the maximum amount of direct loans, loan guarantees, and credit for project costs.

Requires the Secretary to: (1) determine whether the estimated balance of the HTF (other than the Mass Transit Account) will fall below $2 billion in FY2012 or $1 billion in FY2013; and (2) calculate, if either event occurs, the amount by which the obligation limitation on federal-aid highway programs for each fiscal year would have to be reduced to prevent such an occurrence, and then distribute the limitation to the states (minus any reduction).

[Zalatix]

26. Wow, just... wow.

You refuse under any circumstances to see reality.

If this bill does go through you will see more toll roads and some corporation will get rich. And when your pocket book takes the hit, just remember... I told you so.

You will sorely regret this if it passes.

[ProSense]

27. Oh

Wow, just... wow.

You refuse under any circumstances to see reality.

If this bill does go through you will see more toll roads and some corporation will get rich. And when your pocket book takes the hit, just remember... I told you so.

You will sorely regret this if it passes.

...bullshit!

[Zalatix]

32. This is about mass privatization and increasing corporate profits. Simple as that.

You have absolutely no counter argument.

[ProSense]

33. Again

"This is about mass privatization and increasing corporate profits. Simple as that."

...bullshit!

[Zalatix]

35. And again. It is about mass privatization and increasing corporate profits.

NOT bullshit. NOT wrong. NOT inaccurate.

This fight can go on all day long. I've got time.

[ProSense]

37. Point

"And again. It is about mass privatization and increasing corporate profits."

...to the "privatization" in the bill. Show where it increases "corporate profits."

Again, bullshit!

[Zalatix]

40. Who do you think is going to manage this toll network?

The Government? Do you really seriously believe this?

Massive. Corporate. Giveaway. Learn it, know it, love it. It is reality. Unlike your head in the sand arguments.

[woo me with science]

44. You would think we would know this song by now,

wouldn't you?

Excellent posts here.

[Zalatix]

46. Well said. Wish I had thought of it that way. n/t

[ProSense]

47. Instead of

Who do you think is going to manage this toll network?

The Government? Do you really seriously believe this?

Massive. Corporate. Giveaway. Learn it, know it, love it. It is reality. Unlike your head in the sand arguments.

...spewing bullshit, FYI:

Tollways

Many limited-access toll highways that had been built prior to the Interstate Highway Act were incorporated into the Interstate system (for example, the Ohio Turnpike carries portions of Interstates 76, 80, and 90). For major turnpikes in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, Oklahoma, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, and West Virginia, tolls continue to be collected, even though the turnpikes have long since been paid for. The money collected is used for highway maintenance, turnpike improvement projects, and states' general funds. In addition, there are quite a few major toll bridges and toll tunnels included in the Interstate Highways, including ones linking Delaware with New Jersey, New Jersey with New York, and New Jersey with Pennsylvania. Tolls collected on Interstate Highways remain on Interstate 95, Interstate 94, Interstate 90, Interstate 88, Interstate 87, Interstate 80, Interstate 77, Interstate 76, Interstate 64, Interstate 44, Interstate 294, and several others.

In contrast, toll turnpikes in the following states have been declared paid off, and those highways have become standard freeways: Connecticut (Interstate 95), Kentucky (part of Interstate 65), Maryland (part of Interstate 95), Texas (part of Interstate 30), Virginia (the part of Interstate 95 between Richmond and Petersburg), and Florida (part of Interstate 75).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aid_Highway_Act_of_1956#Tollways

[Zalatix]

57. Massive. Corporate. Giveaway. Do you get it yet?

[Major Nikon]

77. If that bothers you, wait till you see this...

[Zalatix]

79. Funny, ha hah!

I don't have a Facebook account. Besides, why would the Gov't want to monitor Facebook when they can keep trying to revive laws like this?

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/2010/10/21/uk-government-revives-isp-internet-snooping-database-to-monitor-citizens.html

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86453/canadian-government-introduces-mandatory-isp-level-surveillance-legislation/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/us/27wiretap.html?pagewanted=all

Or implementing stuff like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)

[sudopod]

62. Grow up. nt

[ProSense]

63. Are you

"Grow up."

...suggesting that it's grown up to believe in bullshit conspiracy theories?

[sudopod]

68. Because repeating the word "bullshit" three times is childish?

Also, it isn't like this hasn't happened before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Toll_Road#Opposition_to_Major_Moves

I especially like the part where the plaintiffs had to put up a bond of 1.9 billion dollars in order for the case to proceed.

From people who live there, I've heard that the cash toll is around $8. Who can afford that on a daily basis?

[ProSense]

70. What

the hell does that have to do with the bill in Congress?

"Because repeating the word "bullshit" three times is childish?"

Bullshit is bullshit. Don't like it, tough.

I think turning everything into a conspiracy is beyond "childish."

[Zalatix]

71. Wow, your arguments are incredibly myopic.

[ProSense]

74. That's

"Wow, your arguments are incredibly myopic."

...OK that you think that because yours are completely fact free.

[Zalatix]

75. Fact free? You're the one arguing that this isn't a big corporate giveaway.

You probably don't even believe that a modern toll system would record who passes through it, much less that law enforcement would have access to those records. If you did, you'd be a conspiracy theorist. But you'd also be someone who knows exactly what is going on right now with current "last gen" toll road technology. Or you could just ask anyone from England about their existing surveillance state.

Your arguments fail every basic reality check, ever. You repeatedly stand in denial of things that are already happening all over the Western world (and worse in places like China). But this is to be expected when you can't even see the big corporate giveaway that's about as subtle as a head-on car crash.

[sudopod]

73. Because the privatization of Indiana's roads is a small-scale representation?

Seriously, how old are you?

[ProSense]

80. Old enough

Because the privatization of Indiana's roads is a small-scale representation?

Seriously, how old are you?

...to know that conflating a 2006 Indiana proposal with a 2012 bill in Congress is idiotic.

[sudopod]

81. It's not a proposal, or even a bill. In Indiana, it's the law.

From the link:

The Indiana Toll Road, officially the Indiana East–West Toll Road,[2] is a toll road that runs for 157 miles (253 km) east–west across northern Indiana from the Illinois state line to the Ohio state line. It has been advertised as the "Main Street of the Midwest".

It is owned by the Indiana Finance Authority and operated by the Indiana Toll Road Concession Company, a joint-venture between Spanish Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte and Australian Macquarie Atlas Roads.

So yes, I think it is in fact a valid comparison and indicator.

[ProSense]

85. It's

"It's not a proposal, or even a bill. In Indiana, it's the law. "

...still a ridiculous comparison. The two have nothing to do with each other.

[Zalatix]

86. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Just sayin'.

[woo me with science]

96. In this case, willful denial.

Now, of course, if this were happening under a Republican administration, it would be a different story. You always gotta check who supports it first.

[sudopod]

87. Lay it out for me. Why isn't it a valid comparison? nt

[girl gone mad]

109. It's ridiculous because you say so..

and bullshit because you say so?

Sorry, not all of us are of the authoritarian mindset.

[sabrina 1]

117. Where's the conspiracy theory? You have not answered the question 'who is going

to operate these tolls on the highways? The Government or Private Corporations?

[TheWraith]

30. You apparently don't understand the whole premise of toll highways.

Tolls collected on toll highways go to the government, not "some corporation." Most often, that money goes back into repairing and maintaining the highways.

[Zalatix]

34. There are but three words for this bill: massive. corporate. giveaway.

[TBF]

50. Privatize Everything is the motto -

and homeland security will have their fingers in it too (track everybody - which someone will profit off as well)

The only folks who do well under capitalism are the owners (top 1/10th of top 1%) and their paid apologists. We see it on DU just as clearly as anywhere else.

[newspeak]

56. don't we already have some privatized toll roads?

while some of these corporations get the profits, they also depend on the government to fix the roads. So, it seems the taxpayers get to pay even more.

All those who wish to privatize the shite out of every damn public thing we have; we will wind up paying more so some damn corporation can make a profit, as those corporations have even more influence on our government over us. It's like being a captive consumer; and we will be paying more. Of course, since they need to make a profit, get ready for more less than decent jobs for those who do most of the labor.

[girl gone mad]

110. The government doesn't need to collect tolls to maintain highways.

It's a bloated and inefficient means of regressively taxing the population and propping up crony private contractors.

[brooklynite]

52. So you believe all roads should be free...

Should all airlines, trains and buses be free as well? Or should people who travel help pay the cost of the moving them?

Toll roads (public AND private) have been around for over 200 years. Here in NYC, we use toll revenues to help subsidize public transit for people who don't drive. AND we use electronic tolling to speed up traffic and reduce the costs of handling cash.

But a conspiracy theory is certainly more entertaining.

[Zalatix]

58. We already have existing means to fund the road system.

We don't need a nationwide toll system to add even MORE financial burdens on the poor who need to commute to work, thank you very much.

However, such a nationwide system would certainly benefit the 1%.

[woo me with science]

97. Exactly. This is regressive, and adds an entire layer of corporate involvement

that will make someone very rich. Or richer.

[sabrina 1]

116. Was there some reason why you didn't just post a link rather than make it necessary

for people, especially those on dial-up to have scroll through all that?

And how does this answer the question about tolls on the highway that people were discussing? I'm sure you had a point by posting it, maybe you could just post a short version of why we should not worry about these tolls?

[TheWraith]

12. A "conspiracy" to repair highways? Yeah, that's not at all paranoid.

[Zalatix]

22. You think this will repair the highways?

[zipplewrath]

17. So you don't think HSA will use the system

So you think this bill doesn't create a monitoring system that would be attractive to HSA for monitoring individual citizens movements? I take it you're a big fan of the Patriot Act too, that was passed by alot of democrats too, including Senator Obama.

[ProSense]

18. Do you

So you don't think HSA will use the system

So you think this bill doesn't create a monitoring system that would be attractive to HSA for monitoring individual citizens movements? I take it you're a big fan of the Patriot Act too, that was passed by alot of democrats too, including Senator Obama.

...think they're using the current system? What the hell does your speculation about it being "attractive" to them have to do with the bill?

[zipplewrath]

25. It's not a conspiracy

Calling that speculation a conspiracy is a bit over the top, considering that it is probably a given that they WILL use it.

And again, what does "democrats voted for it too" add to the conversation, considering that they voted for the patriot act as well?

[TheWraith]

28. That's exactly what it is: a conspiracy theory.

A pretty damned ridiculous conspiracy theory at that, based on the premise that the government wants to track all citizens all the time. You're sounding more and more like one of the New World Order types.

[Zalatix]

39. It is not a conspiracy theory, it's reality.

Between all their cameras over there, the surveillance state is already a reality in England. This bill would not ONLY be a massive corporate giveaway it would also be GREAT for Homeland Security.

[Zalatix]

43. Look around you. Nobody is buying your argument except TheWraith.

Do you get it yet?

[zipplewrath]

51. It's an extrapolation

They already have instituted more tracking methodologies over the last 10 years. They had an entire data mining effort for years. They've been setting up more and more data demands for air travelers. They've demanded more people get, and use, passports that now contain biometeric information. They have been approaching libraries for records of materials checked out. They tested a face recognition system at a Superbowl. They have been looking at importing the persistent survellance technology developed for Iraq back here to the US for domestic monitoring. They are working right now on procedures for extensive use of unmanned drones for domestic monitoring.

It isn't an extreme extrapolation to presume that they would be interested in using monitoring technology on the nations highways to attempt to detect travel patterns. Heck, some folks might consider it malfeasance if they DIDN'T.

[woo me with science]

55. Yup. It is hardly conspiracy to anticipate the behavior of Homeland Security,

especially in the context of what Homeland Security is already doing.

[sabrina 1]

118. Who is going to profit from this? Who will be collecting the tolls? What about poor people

who already cannot afford to drive to work with the price of gas (is a CT to say that the Oil Corps are profiting also), how are they going to be able to deal with this extra cost? Or do Democrats no longer care about the working class and the poor?

And if the TSA actually is operating Toll Booths, why are you calling it a CT to report that? It is not a CT, they ARE doing it. Just as predicted once they got away with the violation of rights at the airport.

Just when will enough be enough? I know that when Bush was president, just his suggesting the Rapiscans was enough to cause a nearly six year fight from the Left. What happened?

[sabrina 1]

121. Well it looks like the Toll Amendment has been withdrawn, see downthread. You can stop

defending it now, it was apparently, as the OP said, a very bad idea.

[Warren Stupidity]

122. The interstate system was supposed to be FREE from tolls, paid by gas tax.

Tolls suck. Tolls are yet another data collection point for monitoring the day to day activities of the people. The way to make up any shortfall in the highway trust fund is to increase the federal tax on retail gasoline. But of course our corrupt politicians are too chicken shit to do that, and there is no police state angle to increasing the tax.

[woo me with science]

126. +100000 Thank you for the important reminder.

Yup, just like cable TV was supposed to be commercial-free,
and Social Security was meant to be separate from the general fund,
and the military was meant to be for national defense,
and the our elections were meant to represent the people.

Lotta good intentions go by the wayside when profit gets involved.

[LuvNewcastle]

4. More privatization

Just as they are attempting to destroy the USPS, RWers are also trying to sell control of our public roads to security and construction conglomerates. Halliburton would be a perfect fit for such a contract.

[woo me with science]

7. This is a bipartisan bill. It is not only right wingers pushing it.

But you are right. Someone is going to make a boatload of money on this.

[fascisthunter]

5. How about The Democrats Make the Rich pay their share in Taxes

because their greed is causing this.

[woo me with science]

8. Well, that would be the logical solution, wouldn't it?

I think they want these checkpoints for Homeland Security monitoring. And profit.

[TheWraith]

13. I think you rub tomatoes in your hair under the full moon.

Wow, it really does feel good to make nonsensical and completely irrational statements.

[Zalatix]

29. I think you like to attack people who don't agree with you.

And this case, none of us except maybe ProSense agree with you.

[TheWraith]

38. Absurd statements deserve to be called absurd.

That's about as much an "attack" as it is "censorship" to pull ads from an angry loudmouth. It fundamentally misunderstands the definition of the word.

Particularly when the other side clearly doesn't know what the subject is, as evidenced by not being able to understand the difference between government tolls on freeways and privatizing the interstate highway system. When you can grasp that premise, we might have a little rationality instead of loony conspiracy theories about imaginary privatization and black helicopters.

[Zalatix]

41. Imaginary privatization? Yup, your argument is definitely clueless.

No wonder you're fighting so hard, no one but ProSense is buying what you're selling.

[SammyWinstonJack]

42. I think you are correct. nt.

[sudopod]

64. You see, hyperbolic posts like this are why no one takes you seriously. nt

[think]

10. Democrats need to start acting like Democrats and not Republican light

It's a very unflattering look for the party.

They have gone along with the Bush tax cuts, the unPatriot Act, the signing of the NDAA, going after whistle blowers 6 times with the Espionage Act, increased budget spending for Homeland Security, and continued increases in military spending.

In many ways America is already a police state.

To put it frankly it's getting embarrassing AND unnerving...

[fascisthunter]

14. The Centrist Dems want what a lot of Republicans Want

but need to BS the voters.

[newspeak]

59. it's called the "new democrats"

I love public highways and pay taxes for the luxury of driving on a public highway. I don't complain about paying taxes for those little things like public education, public libraries, public highways, and public postal service.

Just because some of the wealthy greedheads, who use our resources more than the average american, wants it all without paying taxes, doesn't mean we need to let them have their way.

I'd rather get rid of little boot's damaging tax giveaway than privatize everything.

[woo me with science]

16. We won't have enough real Democrats until

we get the corporate money out of our electoral system.

Corporations have no empathy and no conscience and no loyalty to anything except the bottom line. It is nothing short of suicide to cede to them our government and our lives, because they have no regard for right or wrong or human life or dignity. Profit is the only motive, because they are CORPORATIONS.

We are moving rapidly now, and with bipartisan support, toward a corporate, authoritarian state. And it won't stop until we get the corporate money out of our political systems.

[nykym]

19. Maybe if they would just use the money

they get from the fed and bridge tolls to actually fix the roads and keep them in shape instead of adding more layers of administrative buffoons and purchasing real estate we would not need to even go in this direction.

[Zalatix]

45. And gasoline taxes, they get tons of money from that.

[Avalux]

20. The goal is to make all "interstates" owned privately.

Where we go will be dependent on if we have the cash and if it will be allowed. It's not far-fetched to see a possibility of road closures to keep people where they are; close off state borders.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

31. Eisenhower is spinning in his grave

[woo me with science]

100. No kidding.

Remember his MIC speech, too...

[woo me with science]

49. In a nutshell.

"Where we go will be dependent on if we have the cash and if it will be allowed."

[brooklynite]

53. And you can't POSSIBLY close a roadway without a toll plaza, right?

In fact, the toll plaza being envisioned have no blockages at all; they're overhead gantry holding tag readers and cameras, that cars can drive through at 70 mph.

[Zalatix]

60. But you can close a highway with a toll plaza

to poor people who need to commute to work.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/08/local-virginia-organizers-team-up-with-occupy-unions-for-the-publics-divided-attention/

She also points to the recent announcement of new tolls coming to Hampton Roads on virtually every road in or out of the geographically isolated region. “The Ring Of Fire with the tolls is huge,” she says, referring to locals’ nickname for the proposed ring of tolls encircling the area. “For families on fixed incomes, you’re talking about a crisis that will add $1,000 to a family budget just to get to work.”

[woo me with science]

69. "...that will add $1,000 to a family budget just to get to work.”

I cannot adequately describe my disgust for a system that will increasingly restrict the ability of the poor to travel within our own country.

[sudopod]

127. It's hard to imagine a more regressive tax.

Food tax, maybe?

[Ganja Ninja]

78. They'll take the interstates private and sell them to China.

Since China won't take our debt they can privatize the interstates and china will maintain them and collect the tolls. Another gutless and desperate attempt to keep from raising taxes on the rich.

[On the Road]

36. Well, Your Link Says That the Toll Plaza Proposal

is one of 20 proposed amendments to a bill that hasn't passed yet.

I don't particularly like highway tolls, either, partly because costs are never distributed fairly. Costs $35 to take my daughter to college (Baltimore-NYC).

Logistically, it's no longer clumsy and outdated. Electronic collection like EZPass makes things less cumbersome. The new
Intercounty Connector is all electronic -- you just have to get used to being charged without a toll booth.

Tracking movements is not a reason for its being proposed and should not be a particular concern. A bigger concern IMO is working people whose daily commute suddenly takes right through an expensive toll.

[Zalatix]

65. Wait just a second here.

If you have electronic collection systems, are you actually and honestly arguing that these systems will NOT keep a record of who comes through? Or that such information won't be available for law enforcement?

Really?

[Mc Mike]

92. + 1 to all your posts here, Zal.

You are 100% right.

I'd like to add that they were trying to sell Pennsylvania's stretch of US I-80 to Spanish or German corporations. And as a regular cross-country traveller, I find a ton of 10 - 20 mile pinch points get in the way on our interstates, even without the tollbooth checkpoints (construction makes a 2 lane intersection into 1 lane), which strongly resemble airport x-ray lines, entry points to our public schools or government buildings, lines approaching bank tellers, etc.

[woo me with science]

95. +10000 nt

[Mc Mike]

131. Terry Gilliam's "Brazil"

I like Harry Tuttle's quote in the movie: "I got into this game for the action, the excitement. Go anywhere, travel light, get in, get out, wherever there's trouble, a man alone. Now they got the whole country sectioned off. This whole system of yours could be on fire, and I couldn't even turn on a kitchen tap without filing a 27b-6."

[On the Road]

113. Are Credit Cards a Government Plot?

Pay-at-the-pump gas stations? How about library books? If you're carrying a cell phone, your exact location can be triangulated from the nearby cell towers.

The federal government badly needs tax revenue. Taxes that fund related expenses are more popular and easier to justify. Not everything is a conspiracy to find out where you are.

[Zalatix]

114. No, because I can get around those.

I can read books online, use encryption, turn off my cell phone, buy gasoline with cash.

We already have a means of getting tax revenue for road maintenance. It's called gasoline taxes and auto registration fees.

And your last sentence was really NOT logical. Not only does the Government want to know where you are (have you even heard of the USAPATRIOT Act? ), but corporations REALLY want to know.

Honestly, you've never heard of the term "surveillance state", have you?

[SpartanDem]

48. The conspiracy bs being thrown around are embarassing

People say want the road quality found in Europe well comes through higher gas taxes and many those countries make much more extenstive use of tolls. In Spain, Italy France, Croatia and Hungary their national freeway networks are almost exculsivley tolled.
I'd also add as we have more electrics on the road we need a way to tax them, because they weigh almost the same the ones that use gas. More tolling makes sure that these cars paying into the system for maintainence.

[zipplewrath]

67. I don't see it as a "conspiracy"

It is a reasonable extrapolation of what they already do.

I agree that we may have to consider that "tolls" are the "right" way to tax the highway system. We've used gas taxes, but if we get what we want on electrics/alternative/mass transit, other funding sources would be needed. And gas taxes aren't particularly any more "democratic" than tolls. Truth is, with electronic systems, it could make it MORE democratic because of course they could adjust what you paid based upon any democratic factors they wish (income, wealth, vehicle size, time of day....)

But one would be foolish not to consider the OTHER activities to which these technologies could be put. Besides the absurd "toll breaks" that I'm sure republicans could dream up (toll breaks for the job creators!!!) the information on these systems alone could be used for the basis of search warrants amongst other intentions. To be quite honest, it is the divorce lawyers that would be the first to go after this data. When our city first installed all of those intersection cameras, they databased the information for months. The divorce lawyers went after it and they finally started deleting the information within DAYS.

[ProSense]

72. That's

I don't see it as a "conspiracy"

It is a reasonable extrapolation of what they already do.

I agree that we may have to consider that "tolls" are the "right" way to tax the highway system. We've used gas taxes, but if we get what we want on electrics/alternative/mass transit, other funding sources would be needed. And gas taxes aren't particularly any more "democratic" than tolls. Truth is, with electronic systems, it could make it MORE democratic because of course they could adjust what you paid based upon any democratic factors they wish (income, wealth, vehicle size, time of day....)

But one would be foolish not to consider the OTHER activities to which these technologies could be put. Besides the absurd "toll breaks" that I'm sure republicans could dream up (toll breaks for the job creators!!!) the information on these systems alone could be used for the basis of search warrants amongst other intentions. To be quite honest, it is the divorce lawyers that would be the first to go after this data. When our city first installed all of those intersection cameras, they databased the information for months. The divorce lawyers went after it and they finally started deleting the information within DAYS.

...rich. It's not a conspiracy, and it's likely the best way to go, but one would be "foolish" not to consider the conspiracy.

[unionworks]

76. no no donkey

[zipplewrath]

82. Renaming things is a GOP strategy

Just because you rename someones position as a "conspiracy" doesn't make it so.

[sudopod]

83. SOCIALIST! nt

[unionworks]

84. And your point

...is what?

[sudopod]

88. (Russian accent) Is joke! :D nt

[unionworks]

90. Allow me...

&feature=related

[woo me with science]

99. ....

I loved Rocky and Bullwinkle.

[unionworks]

103. first we steal atomic plans

...then we kill Moose and Squirrel!

[ProSense]

89. Yeah

"Just because you rename someones position as a 'conspiracy' doesn't make it so."

...it's not a "conspiracy." It's just appreciating speculation.

[zipplewrath]

102. All power is abused

There is no power, given to government, that has not abused at one point or another. It isn't a matter of if, but when.

[woo me with science]

105. Especially when government policy is bought by corporations.

Banks and corporations don't have morality. They operate for profit and the bottom line, period.

That is why it is so dangerous to cede your government, your lives, and the lives of your children to them.

[woo me with science]

98. Everything must be smeared as "conspiracy" until it happens.

I remember being scoffed at for suggesting that the military drones in Iraq and Afghanistan would be adapted for civilian use by our police departments.

Yet here they are, coming home.

[dionysus]

54. watch out for the black helicopters!

[sabrina 1]

119. Why are you worried about black helicopters? No one else is.

But how do you feel about the TSA operating toll booths?

[dionysus]

123. worried? i'm laughing at whack ass conspiracy woo....

[Occulus]

129. I wouldn't laugh too hard if I were you.

As another poster pointed out, the same thing was said when concerns about unmanned surveillance drones being used againt civilians in the US were brought up, yet they're being it will soon be used in the exact fashion that was labeled a 'conspiracy'.

[JoeyT]

91. I'm not too worried about being tracked by this system.

You're being tracked by so many devices now that there's little point being concerned with it. If the government wants to track your movements, they don't even need to do any work. They can just ask your mobile phone carrier, GPS manufacturer, emergency service device carrier, or in some cases car manufacturer. The only way to avoid being tracked is to swear off technology and travel by horse and buggy.

However, I am worried about it shifting ever more of the burden of keeping society running onto the poor and middle class, all while racking up profits for whatever corporation was contracted to perform the service. It's kind of a trend, and only a conspiracy in the same way the sun rising in the east is a conspiracy. If something plays out the exact same way every time it happens, it's not unreasonable to assume that's how it will play out again.

Which people are arguing in favor of it should be enough to set off alarm bells.

[think]

93. It's more about toll booth areas being used as TSA checkpoints:

The TSA is already doing highway checkpoints:

The TSA Is Coming To A Highway Near You

~snip~

VIPR teams which count TSOs among their ranks, conduct searches and screenings at train stations, subways, ferry terminals and every other mass transit location around the country. In fact, as the Los Angeles Times has detailed, VIPR teams conducted 9,300 unannounced checkpoints and other search operations in the last year alone. The very thought of federal employees with zero law enforcement training roaming across our nation’s transportation infrastructure with the hope of randomly thwarting a domestic terrorist attack makes about as much sense as EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson’s Environmental Justice tour....

~snip~

Full article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/02/29/the-tsa-is-coming-to-a-highway-near-you/2/

[woo me with science]

94. Yup. And it's also about a huge corporate giveaway,

just like Rapiscan.

Someone is going to get very rich on this scheme. And, frankly, given the recent behavior of Homeland Security, it is nothing short of absurd to hold faith that they will not play a role here.

[Strelnikov_]

101. Biggest issue I have w/ toll roads is safety

Last thing you want to do is add a restriction to the flow.

Toll plazas that minimize thie restriction are god-awful expensive.

[ProSense]

104. Hey

boo: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002423665

The bill passed: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002423454

[sabrina 1]

124. It passed, but the Tolling Amendment is off the table for now. So, I guess the OP was

not the only with concerns about that amendment. No need to try to defend it. It was a bad idea and hopefully will be kept off the table.

http://www.truckinginfo.com/news/news-detail.asp?news_id=76355&news_category_id=3

Scroll down to see the info on the Tolling Amendment. Can't copy & paste for some reason.

[woo me with science]

106. Just keeping this up top so there is context for the others. nt

[LanternWaste]

107. Dallas Tollway Authority have already been training its employees at the

Dallas Tollway Authority have already been training its employees at the Mossad School of Most Excellent Spies. Seeing that I didn't see an agent yesterday means that there were indeed, many agents following me around. And the Dallas Tollway International mercenary Army is just one step away... follow the footprints, and the money, the teh Googles... and the Banans Splits, too. It all adds up. Rothschild or Illuminati...?


Sometimes this absurd crap is straight out of a Three Stooges short. They didn't like it either, I'd guess...

[woo me with science]

108. Kick

[Oilwellian]

111. Apparently the toll amendment was withdrawn

Guess who submitted the amendment for tolls? DEMOCRATIC Senator Carper (Delaware)

And guess who countered the amendment with an amendment against it? Texas REPUBLICAN Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson. I NEVER thought I'd see the day where I agreed with her.

"We must address structural flaws in the Highway Trust Fund," Carper said. "I hope that my amendment represents the beginning of an honest and important conversation about our nation's long-term transportation needs and how we pay for them in a fiscally responsible way."

Hutchison also called for a debate. "Should states or any entity of government be able to toll any free lane of the federal highway system?" she asked.

"I believe that when President Eisenhower said we need a national highway system ... he never envisioned that a state would put up tolls across an entire federal highway and make the taxpayers who have paid for 50 years to build these highways pay again to use the highways they have built."

http://www.truckinginfo.com/news/news-detail.asp?news_id=76355&news_category_id=3

I guess we need to stay tuned, and those in Delaware need to call Senator Carper and ask him WTF????

[sabrina 1]

120. Oh, that's funny. And there are people in this thread defending it.

It sure didn't sound like a good idea and I'm glad that it was withdrawn, but it just shows how diligent the public has to be.

[woo me with science]

128. It sure ain't the same red/blue game it used to be.

We need to watch ALL of them like hawks now. And I'm sure this will be back on the table before long.

Thank you for the update.

[Taverner]

125. California made border guards because of the medfly scare

It's always something else that leads to freedoms lost

[woo me with science]

132. There is always a "good reason."

Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. Each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even talk, alone, you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes.
~Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1938-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)


Other recent examples:

Now it's supposedly about child pornography (internet control)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002197126

and databases on everyone to protect us from illegal workers.

"regretful" signing of the NDAA